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Crimea - Collective Punishment?

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  • 27-12-2014 3:51am
    #1
    Armistice
    Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭


    Hi all.

    My friends and relatives in Crimea (Civilians) have informed me that for the past couple of weeks the electricity has been cutting off for the entire peninsula for most of the day. This was announced by Ukrainian and Russian news outlets as Kiev's decision based on Crimea "using more than their quota".

    It got worse on Christmas eve, when the power, water, internet, TV, Mobile phones and trains to Ukraine were cut off completely or severely disrupted by the Ukrainian government. The services are restored all bar the power, which comes on for about 3 hours a day. This is the day Orthodox Christians traditionally light their new years trees all over the cities in preparation for the Orthodox Christmas. Obviously this tradition couldn't happen this year and Ukraine seemed to have timed it well to pull the plug at the start of the holidays.

    Crimea is still powered mainly by Ukraine, which in theory shouldn't be a problem since Ukraine is powered by Russian gas and rebellious Eastern Ukrainian (Donbass) coal. It also owes billions for this gas bill but the gas needs to flow through Ukraine to get to European customers so Russia can't exactly turn off the taps without massive headaches all round.

    So up until now mutual inter-dependability kept everyone powered. The word on the street in Ukraine is that Donbass coal is now going to Russia, so Kiev is responding by cutting the power to Crimea. No Coal, No electricity. I do get this approach I really do but surely only the innocent will suffer from this either way!

    However despite an agreed all-for-all prisoner exchange in East Ukraine going ahead today as per implementation of the Minsk agreements, Kiev has cancelled the next session of peace talks and announced the trains will no longer run to Crimea. At the same time insisting that Crimea is part of Ukraine and that it will continue to support it's citizens in occupied territory.

    Today it was announced that Visa and Mastercard are no longer accepted due to USA sanctions. Causing a huge problem for Crimeans whose relatives live and work in the West and send money home to the Mammy, as money transfer is now virtually impossible without getting very creative.

    Also, on the trains no longer running - One of the stipulations of EU sanctions is that Crimeans who wish to travel to the EU need to apply for their visa's in Kiev (not Moscow as Russians do). They will supposedly be treated as any other Ukrainian citizen would be provided they apply in Kiev.

    Obviously with no trains running or flights from anywhere other than Russia it is now de facto impossible for poorer Ukrainians in Crimea to apply for a visa in Kiev unless they drive up or can afford to fly through Moscow to Kiev.


    There are just a lot of things that don't make sense from all sides here:


    If Kiev sees Crimea as it's own and cares for the welfare of it's 2 million citizens, why then would it proceed to cut basic necessity like power and water (One of the earliest measures Ukraine took was to block an important irrigation canal running from Ukraine into Crimea.
    )? Punitive measures severely impact peoples lives and could result in fatalities of the elderly and frail.


    If the USA and EU does not recognize Crimeas secession and annexation by Russia as per it's official stance, and sees it as an inseparable part of Ukraine, why then would it implement sanctions that are not targeted at big players but rather at ordinary, innocent people caught up in all of this? Punishment for voting for the Russians? ( Well it couldn't be that because the referendum was judged fraudulent by the West anyway)

    Additionally if Kiev is interested in the peace process why would it cancel the next meeting in Minsk after a successful prisoner exchange with the rebels?

    I am not looking to paint Kiev as the villain, or the EU or USA as the bad guys, Nor do I want to paint the Russians as the good guys. At the same time I don't buy the black and white, West = Good guys, Ukraine = victim, Russia = evil empire. The world is not that simple and it would be lazy to believe it is. There are good, and bad players on all sides of this conflict. I have been accused of being a pro-Russian Putin supporter for this stance, but nothing could be further from the truth.

    For example I remember when the referendum was occurring and I asked my friends and family on Skype, were there any Russian soldiers at the polling stations they went to? The answer was no, Just some old ladies sitting at a table giving out the polling cards.

    Then I go to work, and all the guys in work are banging on about how the Crimeans were forced to vote at gunpoint. When I pointed out that it's not what the Crimeans I know are telling me, they got really aggravated with me. It seemed like preserving their narrative of what was going on was more important than listening to someone relay actual anecdotes from real life witness accounts .

    I just think that punishing ordinary Crimeans be the Russian, Ukrainian, Tartar or anyone else is an unnecessary cruel and ultimately pointless and petty move on Kiev's part.

    I feel really sorry for the Crimeans now, Having the pretty useless Ukrainian government trying to "save" them by isolating them and Putin's Russia as their protector. With friends like those who needs enemies.

    So folks, apologies for the rambling nature of my post, but do you think Crimea is being subjected to collective punishment, and if so, is there any justification?


«1

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    #2
    Dannyboy83
    Registered Users Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    Armistice wrote: »
    There are just a lot of things that don't make sense from all sides here:

    So Russia destroys her own economy and reputation to take you under her wing, and yet you are criticizing the Russians?
    That's gratitude! LOL!
    So folks, apologies for the rambling nature of my post, but do you think Crimea is being subjected to collective punishment, and if so, is there any justification?

    Ukraine is on the verge of civil war and total economic collapse. Cities all across Ukraine are suffering power shortages.

    Russia's economy is screwed and Russia is on a path to becoming China's dog, thanks to a backwater called Crimea.

    Most of the Northern hemisphere is concerned about accidental nuclear war, over a practically medieval country which nobody wants in the European Union anyway.


    And you think Crimea is being singled out ???


  • Options
    #3
    Kristopherus
    Registered Users Posts: 11,907 ✭✭✭✭Kristopherus


    If that zealot Putin kept his nose out of Ukraine, there would be no issue. The way he has now fcuked up that whole region, its likely that Crimea will not get its services back anytime soon.


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    #4
    Armistice
    Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭Armistice


    Kristopherus wrote: »
    If that zealot Putin kept his nose out of Ukraine, there would be no issue. The way he has now fcuked up that whole region, its likely that Crimea will not get its services back anytime soon.

    But I'm not talking about Putin specifically. I am asking people believe collective punishment is being carried out against Crimeas ordinary residents and if so is it justified?


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    #5
    Kristopherus
    Registered Users Posts: 11,907 ✭✭✭✭Kristopherus


    Armistice wrote: »
    But I'm not talking about Putin specifically. I am asking people believe collective punishment is being carried out against Crimeas ordinary residents and if so is it justified?

    AFAIK the pressure is coming from both sides. I think you are likely to get more negative replies than positive ones, tbh.

    Unfortunately when there's a political dispute, its always the ordinary, hardworking folk who suffer most. Is Crimea, and by the I mean the ordinary folk, more pro Russia, or pro Ukraine?


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    #6
    Armistice
    Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭Armistice


    Kristopherus wrote: »
    AFAIK the pressure is coming from both sides. I think you are likely to get more negative replies than positive ones, tbh.

    Unfortunately when there's a political dispute, its always the ordinary, hardworking folk who suffer most. Is Crimea, and by the I mean the ordinary folk, more pro Russia, or pro Ukraine?

    Well just a disclaimer first that I am of course basing my opinions on the people I know, and my general experiences of talking to Crimeans over the years.

    To be honest most people I talked politics with in my many visits to Crimea considered themselves Ethnically and culturally Russian but pro European, They looked to the EU as a sign of liberty and hope.

    Every one saw Ukraine and Russia in much the same light, Corrupt old fashioned authoritarian regimes that rushed in to fill the void of the USSR. The word mafia was used a lot to describe the governments of both Ukraine and Russia. Many seeing Kiev as a Kremlin puppet.

    I am sure that most of us would agree with these sentiments.

    Crimea has always been a popular tourist spot for Europeans such as Germans and Italians, and Russians of course, and a surprising amount of Americans and Canadians. So unlike much of mainland Ukraine, every year during the summer months Crimea had a massive influx of foreigners. Cruise ships are (or were) a regular site.

    Additionally Most young Crimeans have a high standard of education and go to work abroad and send money home to the folks. They also report back to them on how life is in whatever country they adopted.

    So as a result of these factors the average Crimean is quite worldly compared to say the Eastern Ukrainians who can be almost the opposite due to the little tourism they get and the fact that there are plenty of jobs to keep the young people there in the coal mines, steel works and what not. Practically every Crimean has a few family members working abroad.

    Naturally as most of them are Russians ethnically ( In that their parents, grandparents etc were Russians) who were born in the USSR, there is a cultural and ethnic affinity with Russia proper.

    However, practically all the people I spoke to about politics valued the fact that they were not in Russia, as they saw that as a more authoritarian state with less freedom than even Ukraine.

    So there is a pro European attitude amongst Crimeans (suprise). They would rather not be in Ukraine (as it was) or Russia, and Crimea has vied for autonomy on several occasions. Crimea was actually a semi autonomous state within a state before it was annexed back into Russia.

    Some of the Ukrainian parliament were associated with some pretty extreme right wingers. After Yanukovych and his party of Regions were overturned they were the last people the Ukrainian Russians wanted to fill the power vacuum.

    The Kremlin cashed in on the chaos and mistrust of the new Ukrainian government and peoples fear of impending doom and moved to cordon off Crimea. Many saw them as a stabilizing factor. Russia scared the bejaysus out of a lot of the older people with a lot of propaganda showing Nazi symbols associated with Kiev. The fact that here really were self styled Nazi militias who occasionally showed up on the news added credence to this propaganda. Although in reality these groups, although terrifying are relatively insignificant.

    So voting for Russia was seen as the lessor of two evils by many Crimeans. Sort of a devil you know type situation.

    It was all extremely fast and clearly the Crimeans voted out of panic and Russia was seen as a stable factor in all the chaos. After all they had no real time to think about it.

    Now of course in the cold light of day many feel totally stuck. They don't want to be part of Putins ideological crusade, but fear Kievs enhanced russophobia.

    Many who can are leaving and moving to countries such as Israel who have an affinity with Crimea.( Crimea plays an important part in Jewish history).

    Anyway there's my two cents.

    TL/DR - In the years I've been visiting Crimea and the relationships I've built up almost all of them were Pro European and distrusted severely both Kiev and Moscow wishing instead for an independent , tourism driven Crimea.


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    #7
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    Why should Ukraine supply power to a territory that was stolen from it by another country?


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    #8
    gandalf
    Registered Users Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    Why should Ukraine supply power to a territory that was stolen from it by another country?

    This would be my position as well. The Russians stole the territory illegally from another sovereign state. Surely the responsibility now lies with them with ensuring "their" people get these services.

    If you are going to hand out medals for illegal actions, hold a lavish signing ceremony to illegally annex that territory, have your head of state attend celebrations there then surely you should expect that State Russia would supply these services as well?

    You can't expect a country to piss all over international law, decide to slice off portions of another sovereign state and everything to carry on as normal. At least the Crimeans have not suffered the way the Eastern Ukrainians have from this conflict.


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    #9
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,428 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Would the turning off the power - gas - water- ect be tactical - the Russians want their spiritual enclave of Crimea to be a success - but all the services come through Ukraine - all these services were going to be supplied by new pipelines-lines ect across the straits from Russia.
    Of course a corrupt (and now broke) Russia,isn't going going to be able to do that quickly - so it might have to treat with Ukraine -
    Ukraine might want Crimea back -(not that it's particularly Ukrainian ) but it's not going to happen - so why would it use it's scarce resources to benefit what's now Russian space -

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #10
    BoJack Horseman
    Registered Users Posts: 12,248 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    Russian citizens should take their grievances to the Russian government.... end of.

    I'm baffled as to why Kiev is supplying Crimea with a single watt of energy.

    A (statistically unlikely) 97% majority of crimeans wanted this to happen..... Live with it.


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    #11
    Armistice
    Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭Armistice


    BoJack Horseman wrote: »
    Russian citizens should take their grievances to the Russian government.... end of.

    I'm baffled as to why Kiev is supplying Crimea with a single watt of energy.

    A (statistically unlikely) 97% majority of crimeans wanted this to happen..... Live with it.

    Bojack, you appear to be saying that the vote was likely fraudulent (Which I agree with) and at the same time saying that the Crimeans should live with the consequences.

    How can they be held responsible for a situation forced upon them by an occupying country?

    Unless you see the vote as valid, in which case we (the west) should respect the democrat wish of the people and lift the sanctions.

    You can't mix and match both.

    Also , they are still Ukrainian citizens.


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    #12
    Armistice
    Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭Armistice


    Markcheese wrote: »
    Would the turning off the power - gas - water- ect be tactical - the Russians want their spiritual enclave of Crimea to be a success - but all the services come through Ukraine - all these services were going to be supplied by new pipelines-lines ect across the straits from Russia.
    Of course a corrupt (and now broke) Russia,isn't going going to be able to do that quickly - so it might have to treat with Ukraine -
    Ukraine might want Crimea back -(not that it's particularly Ukrainian ) but it's not going to happen - so why would it use it's scarce resources to benefit what's now Russian space -

    I think this is the reality of the situation.

    In my opinion it seems that Ukraine owes Russia a lot of money, and that Russia owes Ukraine a lot of land and infrastructure. Surely there is some sensible and forward thinking arrangement that can be made.

    If I stole my neighbors land and for some reason, and it wasn't realistic to return it, a court would order me to pay compensation.

    If Russia agreed to drop the debt and pay a fee to Ukraine over the next 10 years say, for loss of tax revenue from Crimea. With a stipulation that Crimeans be allowed vote again in a few years when all this has died down about whether or not they want to be in Ukraine with international monitors present.

    And the USA and EU agreeing to drop the sanctions (With Russia removing all support for East Ukrainian rebels and Kiev offering a once off amnesty to those rebels)

    Maybe that could be a non world war 3 way out of this situation.


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    #13
    BoJack Horseman
    Registered Users Posts: 12,248 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    Armistice wrote: »
    Bojack, you appear to be saying that the vote was likely fraudulent (Which I agree with) and at the same time saying that the Crimeans should live with the consequences.
    The vote was illegal & the result a mockery, however you said that the Crimean people preferred to be Russian......
    They got their wish.
    How can they be held responsible for a situation forced upon them by an occupying country?
    To the extent that Irish people are responsible for Ireland..... Russians are responsible for Russia..... You said they are Russian.
    Unless you see the vote as valid
    It isnt
    in which case we (the west) should respect the democrat wish of the people and lift the sanctions.
    The sanctions are aimed at the Russian ruling elite.... not the Russian people. I'm happy for them to remain indefinitely.
    Also , they are still Ukrainian citizens.

    Who, as you said, are Russian & live in Russia.

    This problem starts & ends with Russia.

    There is no responsibility on Kiev's part to do anything.
    In providing what is now Russian territory with water & power they are prolonging the conflict through accepting the new status quo.


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    #14
    Armistice
    Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭Armistice


    BoJack Horseman wrote: »
    The vote was illegal & the result a mockery, however you said that the Crimean people preferred to be Russian......
    They got their wish.

    They are Russian ethnically but ethnicity does not equal nationality. I said they prefer (The people I know anyway) to be Russian Europeans and open and were happy not to be in Russia. They were scared into voting for Russia.
    BoJack Horseman wrote: »
    Yes..... To the extent that Irish people are responsible for Ireland..... Russians are responsible for Russia.

    And yet the Irish government still look after Irish people even if they happen to be in Northern Ireland. It gives them Irish passports if they wish and funds resources, community facilities and other support/outreach programs.
    BoJack Horseman wrote: »
    The sanctions are aimed at the Russian ruling elite.... I'm happy for them to remain indefinitely.

    These sanctions I agree with, punishing normal civilians however I don't agree with. Basic human rights and all that.
    BoJack Horseman wrote: »
    Who, as you said, are Russian & live in Russia.
    But are ethnic Russian Ukrainians. Russians yes, but Ukrainian nationals too. It is possible to be both, as we have discovered in Ireland with Anglo-Irish, and Scots-Irish etc.
    BoJack Horseman wrote: »
    There is no responsibility on Kiev's part to do anything.
    In providing what is now Russian territory with water & power they are prolonging the conflict through accepting the new status quo.

    So Kiev should wash their hands of 2 million Ukrainian citizens? is that really the right thing to do?




    I should add that yesterday Russia has agreed to provide 1 million tonnes of coal to Ukraine in the hope that it will restore power to Crimea.


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    #15
    BoJack Horseman
    Registered Users Posts: 12,248 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    Armistice wrote: »
    They are Russian ethnically....
    ...they prefer to be Russian....
    They were scared into voting for Russia.

    There you go.... Why Ukraine should continue to power & heat these Russians escape me.

    You make your bed, you lie in it.

    And yet the Irish government still look after Irish people even if they happen to be in Northern Ireland. It gives them Irish passports if they wish and funds resources, community facilities and other support/outreach programs
    Yeah, I never understood why we pay money to Irish people living abroad.

    So Kiev should wash their hands of 2 million Ukrainian citizens? is that really the right thing to do?

    The right thing would be for the Russian government to take care of Russian territory & citizens......
    I should add that yesterday Russia has agreed to provide 1 million tonnes of coal to Ukraine in the hope that it will restore power to Crimea.
    Good.... of course.

    The sooner a territory the size & population of Leinster can get some power stations going, the better.

    You call it collective punishment?
    You are accusing the wrong punisher.


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    #16
    Armistice
    Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭Armistice


    BoJack Horseman wrote: »
    There you go.... Why Ukraine should continue to power & heat these Russians escape me.

    You make your bed, you lie in it.

    Bojack I think you are missing my point. The Crimeans didn't make this bed. They have been thrust into these circumstances, and at the same time you say they deserve it.

    What exactly is the Crime of the Crimean public so great that it removes Ukraine's responsibility towards the 2 million Ukrainian citizens there?

    Anyway, I don't expect you to understand, and respect that you hold a different, albeit in my opinion slightly hypocritical view.


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    #17
    BoJack Horseman
    Registered Users Posts: 12,248 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    Armistice wrote: »
    Bojack I think you are missing my point. The Crimeans didn't make this bed. They have been thrust into these circumstances, and at the same time you say they deserve it.

    You said that your friends/family voted to be part of Russia & that they are Russian both ethnically & in their hearts.

    Is some some temporary blackouts not a small price to pay for returning your land to its rightful place?
    What exactly is the Crime of the Crimean public so great that it removes Ukraine's responsibility towards the 2 million Ukrainian citizens there?
    No expert, but I'd imagine that the Kiev governments first responsibility is to Ukraine.

    With its collapsed economy, currency & tax returns, the Kiev government are hard stretched heating & powering Ukraine let alone the burden of powering a chunk of foreign territory.

    Anyway, I don't expect you to understand, and respect that you hold a different, albeit in my opinion slightly hypocritical view.

    As I said I'm no expert.

    But as you say..... Your friends/family:
    Are ethnic Russian
    Speak Russian
    Feel Russian
    Voted to be part of Russia.

    Then have the gall to feel salty just because the nation & people they voted against isn't keeping them as cosy as they would like.

    As I said, you voted to be part of Russia.
    If you aren't happy with the state of your utilities, take it up with them.

    Just don't be shocked if the nation your friends/family turned their backs against isn't feeling very friendly.


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    #18
    Lemming
    Registered Users Posts: 14,148 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    Armistice, put it this way; Russia charges Ukraine for its gas power. Effectively the Ukrainians are now paying Russia to power "Russian " territory. Territory that the Russians have brazenly stolen in full view of the world.

    Why should the Ukraine bear costs that are now not theirs to bear, from a neighbour who has been proverbially beating them up for its own gain

    Does that seem logical to you?


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    #19
    gandalf
    Registered Users Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    Armistice wrote: »
    Bojack I think you are missing my point. The Crimeans didn't make this bed. They have been thrust into these circumstances, and at the same time you say they deserve it.

    What exactly is the Crime of the Crimean public so great that it removes Ukraine's responsibility towards the 2 million Ukrainian citizens there?

    Anyway, I don't expect you to understand, and respect that you hold a different, albeit in my opinion slightly hypocritical view.

    But if Crimea was so important to Russia surely they would ensure that they are capable of supplying the basic needs of Crimeans?

    If they can't even do this then why did they take it upon themselves to illegally take over the territory. Also I see you choose to ignore my comment that the Crimeans (bar the Tartars) have come out of this conflict relatively unscathed compared to their Eastern Ukrainian cousins.


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    #20
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,664 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    One can feel sympathy for the OP's kin in Crimea. Unfortunately history plays a part in this complex situation. The use of embargoes has deep roots, being used a political weapon in times of war and peace to impose one sides domination on another - from WWI to the recent Cuban sanctions. As well the revenge of history plays a part in this and neighbouring regions, where it is now an aspect of the latest stage of the Great Game: where moves to check the Russian hegmony is now with the US rather than UK.
    Thus as sanctions are well established in customary law, it is unlikely the people of Crimea will have any relief in the immediate future so long a Russia remains in possession of that region.


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    #21
    WakeUp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,823 ✭✭✭WakeUp


    BoJack Horseman wrote: »

    With its collapsed economy, currency & tax returns, the Kiev government are hard stretched heating & powering Ukraine let alone the burden of powering a chunk of foreign territory

    this is true. its probably actually worse than you describe it. Russia is shipping 50,000 tons of coal into Ukraine daily which the Ukrainians cant pay for. think its from the donbass region well some of it anyways so technically its theirs but thats how bad things are for them. Europes largest nuclear power plant has suffered its second emergency shut down in the space of a month. the plant covers 1/5 of Ukrainian energy demands lets hope they and that plant can keep their sh1t together for reasons that are obvious and dont need stating.
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-12-28/ukraines-largest-nuclear-power-plant-suffers-2nd-emergency-shutdown-3-weeks?


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    #22
    Dannyboy83
    Registered Users Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    Armistice wrote: »
    What exactly is the Crime of the Crimean public so great that it removes Ukraine's responsibility towards the 2 million Ukrainian citizens there?

    To whom do the 2 million citizens there pay their taxes?


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    #23
    Armistice
    Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭Armistice


    gandalf wrote: »
    But if Crimea was so important to Russia surely they would ensure that they are capable of supplying the basic needs of Crimeans?

    If they can't even do this then why did they take it upon themselves to illegally take over the territory. Also I see you choose to ignore my comment that the Crimeans (bar the Tartars) have come out of this conflict relatively unscathed compared to their Eastern Ukrainian cousins.

    Just to address that , the Crimeans were not in a conflict. There was a political crisis but no conflict.

    Would you prefer if some Crimeans were killed to even it up?


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    #24
    BoJack Horseman
    Registered Users Posts: 12,248 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    Armistice wrote: »
    Would you prefer if some Crimeans were killed to even it up?

    I'd imagine he wouldn't?
    Would you prefer more death?


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    #25
    Armistice
    Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭Armistice


    WakeUp wrote: »
    this is true. its probably actually worse than you describe it. Russia is shipping 50,000 tons of coal into Ukraine daily which the Ukrainians cant pay for. think its from the donbass region well some of it anyways so technically its theirs but thats how bad things are for them. Europes largest nuclear power plant has suffered its second emergency shut down in the space of a month. the plant covers 1/5 of Ukrainian energy demands lets hope they and that plant can keep their sh1t together for reasons that are obvious and dont need stating.


    The Ukrainian government has announced that it has changed the rules making it legal to import electricity from countries other than Russia ( Previously only Russia was allowed sell electricity to Ukraine).

    Just read about it today. This means that Ukraine can import from Hungary, Poland, Belarus, Romania and Slovakia.

    Ukraine intends to sell this back to Russia to power Crimea. So some positive steps forward for all concerned.


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    #26
    Armistice
    Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭Armistice


    BoJack Horseman wrote: »
    I'd imagine he wouldn't?
    Would you prefer more death?

    Of course not. when have I alluded to this?


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    #27
    Armistice
    Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭Armistice


    Manach wrote: »
    One can feel sympathy for the OP's kin in Crimea. Unfortunately history plays a part in this complex situation. The use of embargoes has deep roots, being used a political weapon in times of war and peace to impose one sides domination on another - from WWI to the recent Cuban sanctions. As well the revenge of history plays a part in this and neighbouring regions, where it is now an aspect of the latest stage of the Great Game: where moves to check the Russian hegmony is now with the US rather than UK.
    Thus as sanctions are well established in customary law, it is unlikely the people of Crimea will have any relief in the immediate future so long a Russia remains in possession of that region.

    I think your right. Unfortunately for the innocents that have to live there it looks like Crimea is going to be another Cuba.


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    #28
    BoJack Horseman
    Registered Users Posts: 12,248 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    Armistice wrote: »
    it looks like Crimea is going to be another Cuba.

    Well, Cuba didn't vote to be part of Russia, so I'm not sure of the equivalence?


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    #29
    BoJack Horseman
    Registered Users Posts: 12,248 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    Armistice wrote: »
    when have I alluded to this?

    When did Gandalf?


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    #30
    Armistice
    Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭Armistice


    BoJack Horseman wrote: »
    When did Gandalf?

    He pointed out that the Crimeans have gotten off lightly compared to Eastern Ukraine. I asked him if more dead Crimeans would somehow make this fair.


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    #31
    Armistice
    Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭Armistice


    BoJack Horseman wrote: »
    Well, Cuba didn't vote to be part of Russia, so I'm not sure of the equivalence?

    Bojack I mean the isolating effects of international sanctions. Why are you so contrary to me did I offend you?


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