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The hijacking of labour politics

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    #32
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #33
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Nothing has changed in 30 years, apart from free 3rd level education, better life expectancies for all, cheaper goods are services, huge advances in technology, massive surge in social welfare and benefits and more liberalised laws in society... nothing has changed...!


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    #34
    For Reals
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,964 ✭✭✭For Reals


    marienbad wrote: »
    Whatever about the merits of your argument - to argue that things were better in the 80's is just simply wrong.....

    Your entire post was based on a misunderstanding of my post.
    I'm saying things are not great for many and many are no better off. Also any improvements can be credited to, (to use the corporate folk speak) 'left wing' views or 'give away' budgets not champions of industry making everyones lot better by making themselves money. I'd suggest leeches such as big business, crooked politicians and crooked bankers hold people down far more than any dole sponger or illegal immigrant, certainly they colour state policy a lot more, which explains why childhood poverty has increased.
    If the system is so great, it's had a good run, even pre collapse, yet here we all are, no sign of any promised land figurative or otherwise in sight.
    When the money men got the run of the country, they ruined it and laughingly tried to place the blame at the doorstep of the people fooled by 'the boom getting boomier' lest they go kill themselves for doubting. Yet on things such as water tax and housing tax we are foolish not to simply nod along.

    Labour tried to jump on the New Labour/faux conservative train after it had left the station. Now they don't know what they are only that they want in government. They should vacate Ely Place and bring in a complete new staff drawn from and voted in by ordinary party members from all walks off life.


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    #35
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    For Reals wrote: »
    Your entire post was based on a misunderstanding of my post.
    I'm saying things are not great for many and many are no better off. Also any improvements can be credited to, (to use the corporate folk speak) 'left wing' views or 'give away' budgets not champions of industry making everyones lot better by making themselves money. I'd suggest leeches such as big business, crooked politicians and crooked bankers hold people down far more than any dole sponger or illegal immigrant, certainly they colour state policy a lot more, which explains why childhood poverty has increased.
    If the system is so great, it's had a good run, even pre collapse, yet here we all are, no sign of any promised land figurative or otherwise in sight.
    When the money men got the run of the country, they ruined it and laughingly tried to place the blame at the doorstep of the people fooled by 'the boom getting boomier' lest they go kill themselves for doubting. Yet on things such as water tax and housing tax we are foolish not to simply nod along.

    Labour tried to jump on the New Labour/faux conservative train after it had left the station. Now they don't know what they are only that they want in government. They should vacate Ely Place and bring in a complete new staff drawn from and voted in by ordinary party members from all walks off life.

    No misunderstanding- your post is factually incorrect .


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    #36
    For Reals
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,964 ✭✭✭For Reals


    jank wrote: »
    Nothing has changed in 30 years, apart from free 3rd level education, better life expectancies for all, cheaper goods are services, huge advances in technology, massive surge in social welfare and benefits and more liberalised laws in society... nothing has changed...!

    Yeah families going to bed hungry shed tears of joy at the international space station as it whizzes over head. Cop on.


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    #37
    For Reals
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,964 ✭✭✭For Reals


    marienbad wrote: »
    No misunderstanding- your post is factually incorrect .


    You believe I am saying things are 100% the same or as worse as the 1980's and go on to yak about that.
    Feel free, but I'm not, therefore your whole argument is ridiculous as you're arguing against an imagined view.
    marienbad wrote: »
    No misunderstanding- your post is factually incorrect .

    Your idea that we all own Rolls Royces is simply not true...

    Get me?


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    #38
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    For Reals wrote: »
    You believe I am saying things are 100% the same or as worse as the 1980's and go on to yak about that.
    Feel free, but I'm not, therefore your whole argument is ridiculous as you're arguing against an imagined view.



    Your idea that we all own Rolls Royces is simply not true...

    Get me?

    Of course not and your idea that we are worse off than decades ago is simply not true either.

    And by the way the improvements you refer to are a direct result of the prosperity generated by an open liberal economy.

    Where the left has been organised is the semi state and public service unions and they have done nothing but enrich themselves even at the expense of new entrants and with their pensions and conditions left future generations with a millstone just as bad as the 'crooked bankers'


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    #39
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    For Reals wrote: »
    Yeah families going to bed hungry shed tears of joy at the international space station as it whizzes over head. Cop on.

    Life expectancy has gone from 73 to 81 in 30 years. That is an increase of 8 years... pretty damm good if you ask me. No facts or stats coming from your end thinking that we are worse off but there ya go.


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    #40
    BlatentCheek
    Registered Users Posts: 329 ✭✭BlatentCheek


    jank wrote: »
    Life expectancy has gone from 73 to 81 in 30 years. That is an increase of 8 years... pretty damm good if you ask me. No facts or stats coming from your end thinking that we are worse off but there ya go.

    Over 30 years an increase of only 8 years in life expectancy is actually not great considering the massive increase in overall wealth in the country over that time, not to mention huge lifestyle changes such as the changed attitude towards smoking.

    The expansion of third level education came at the cost of standards and has been accompanied by a huge drop in the value of such an education and as such may not be the achievement it is trumpeted as.

    Housing, an essential human need, is probably less accessible to people (certainly much less so in Dublin) than it was 30 years ago. Our property sector is a highly dysfunctional system that transfers wealth from the lower and middle sections of society to the top while endlessly repeating volatile cycles of boom and bust that fatally threaten our country's very existence as a sovereign state.

    Household debt is certainly far far higher.

    More plasma TVs, foreign holidays and BMWs on the road is great but 30 years is a long time and the progress we have had has been uneven and came at a very high cost. I am certain that we could have done better over that period and that we are on the wrong track now.


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    #41
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    BlatentCheek wrote: »
    Over 30 years an increase of only 8 years in life expectancy is actually not great considering the massive increase in overall wealth in the country over that time, not to mention huge lifestyle changes such as the changed attitude towards smoking.

    The expansion of third level education came at the cost of standards and has been accompanied by a huge drop in the value of such an education and as such may not be the achievement it is trumpeted as.

    Housing, an essential human need, is probably less accessible to working people (certainly much less so in Dublin) than it was 30 years ago. Our property sector is a highly dysfunctional system that transfers wealth from the lower and middle sections of society to the top while endlessly repeating volatile cycles of boom and bust that fatally threaten our country's very existence as a sovereign state.

    Household debt is certainly far far higher.

    More plasma TVs, foreign holidays and BMWs on the road is great but 30 years is a long time and the progress we have had has been uneven and came at a very high cost. I am certain that we could have done better over that period and that we are on the wrong track now.


    Actually 8 years increase over 30 years is an astonishing improvement. The whole health of the nation is improving even in these straightened times.
    http://www.independent.ie/life/health-wellbeing/life-expectancy-increases-by-four-years-30391170.html

    And as for the expansion of 3rd Level education , it is still one of the greatest achievements of the sate and to think otherwise is laughable.

    Housing aside we are so much better off that that 30 years ago and every stat says so.

    As for saying we could have done better, that is just meaningless , we can always do better but hindsight is 20/20 vision


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    #42
    BlatentCheek
    Registered Users Posts: 329 ✭✭BlatentCheek


    marienbad wrote: »
    A
    And as for the expansion of 3rd Level education , it is still one of the greatest achievements of the sate and to think otherwise is laughable.

    After spending a huge amount to expand third-level education we have a situation where many graduates have done courses of dubious value that have not made them the slightest bit more employable. Many graduates leave third level unable to write a grammatically correct sentence. Many graduates who can are still languishing on the dole queue. The expansion of third level has failed to significantly improve participation in further education by the groups that were previously excluded.

    Meanwhile a new class of self-enriching university administrators has sprung up to pocket much of the money spent on expanding third-level. The WIT expenses scandals, featuring such highlights as Prof. Kieran Byrne's €4,000 flight between Dublin and Waterford, are probably the best examples of this but I recall Hugh Brady spending millions on renovating the Dean's residence at UCD while the frequency of tutorials in at least one faculty was being halved as a costs saving measure and I suspect that such behaviour is fairly ubiquitous in the further education sector.

    Honestly I think it's laughable to describe all of that as one of the greatest achievements in the history of the state. It compares very poorly with the expansion of second level education for example. Not to mention advances in public health and housing made by past governments.


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    #43
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    BlatentCheek wrote: »
    After spending a huge amount to expand third-level education we have a situation where many graduates have done courses of dubious value that have not made them the slightest bit more employable. Many graduates leave third level unable to write a grammatically correct sentence. Many graduates who can are still languishing on the dole queue. The expansion of third level has failed to significantly improve participation in further education by the groups that were previously excluded.

    Meanwhile a new class of self-enriching university administrators has sprung up to pocket much of the money spent on expanding third-level. The WIT expenses scandals, featuring such highlights as Prof. Kieran Byrne's €4,000 flight between Dublin and Waterford, are probably the best examples of this but I recall Hugh Brady spending millions on renovating the Dean's residence at UCD while the frequency of tutorials in at least one faculty was being halved as a costs saving measure and I suspect that such behaviour is fairly ubiquitous in the further education sector.

    Honestly I think it's laughable to describe all of that as one of the greatest achievements in the history of the state. It compares very poorly with the expansion of second level education for example. Not to mention advances in public health and housing made by past governments.

    Sure it pales into significance compared to 2nd level and it hasn't been as successful as we had hoped but to not realize the enormity of its potential is just wrong and the way it is being eroded the institutions themselves with all their fees and such is just obscene .

    But the undeniable fact is that every teenager in Ireland can have realistic aspirations to 3rd level education , some thing that was unavailable to most generations over 45 ? The issue that it has not spread a widly as was hoped is not to do with its availability but other social issues.

    It looks though from your post as if you just have a particular bugbear with this sector.


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    #44
    BlatentCheek
    Registered Users Posts: 329 ✭✭BlatentCheek


    marienbad wrote: »
    It looks though from your post as if you just have a particular bugbear with this sector.

    I'd hate to give that impression. I regularly work with universities and ITs and usually find it a pleasure. Nonetheless gravy-training should be criticised wherever it can be seen, and it certainly can be seen in the Irish further education sector.
    marienbad wrote: »
    Sure it pales into significance compared to 2nd level and it hasn't been as successful as we had hoped but to not realize the enormity of its potential

    I can't argue with that but we were originally talking about progress in the last 30 years and I simply feel that while it was overall a good achievement, it was deeply flawed in many ways that prevented it from being a great one and is not the shining example of such progress that it is presented as.


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    #45
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    BlatentCheek wrote: »
    I'd hate to give that impression. I regularly work with universities and ITs and usually find it a pleasure. Nonetheless gravy-training should be criticised wherever it can be seen, and it certainly can be seen in the Irish further education sector.



    I can't argue with that but we were originally talking about progress in the last 30 years and I simply feel that while it was overall a good achievement, it was deeply flawed in many ways that prevented it from being a great one and is not the shining example of such progress that it is presented as.

    Yeah I wouldn't disagree too much with any of that and maybe I did overstate the case for it , a common enough perception of people of my generation , particularly those that were bright and never got the opportunity that so many today take for granted.

    I agree completely on the gravy training and I would say we have yet to see the half of it.


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    #46
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


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