Absent Fathers

Bill2673 · 19-01-2011 6:37pm

ps....where the heck is Flensburg?

Cavehill Red · 19-01-2011 6:38pm

liah wrote: »

My point was largely that the generalizations flying around this thread about how women are horrible and keep running off with men's kids for no good reason are bs and are not adding at all to the debate. I figured that by illustrating a case that makes it obvious that yes, in fact, sometimes there IS a good reason to keep your child away from a man, without it having anything to do with the woman being a bitch.

The law would've impaired my own and my mother's life drastically. I said I don't care about it because it would have accomplished absolutely nothing for us. I said I don't care about it in this case, because I don't. It doesn't mean I don't care about it in general, but this is not what I'm arguing. I just want the bs generalizations to stop.

Surely you can see my position, though? To legislate on the basis of that case would be to permit any mother to unilaterally remove all fathers' rights at any time of their choosing, without legal endorsement or notice.
There's no way I'd ever support anything like that, just as I don't support the opposite scenario as it plays out in Muslim countries, where women are routinely disenfranchised by fathers.

liah wrote: »

For the record, I believe that law should be gender-blind and put the child in the hands of the best, most adept parent, but currently the system it takes to get there is far too harrowing for most to even bother with.

For the record, I too believe the law should be gender blind, but I feel it should put the child in the hands of both parents except in the most exceptional circumstances, since in the vast majority of cases children benefit most from having regular secure access to both their father and their mother. And that's why I believe we should look to introduce a Scandinavian model of family law into Ireland.

norrie rugger · 19-01-2011 6:41pm

liah wrote: »

My point was largely that the generalizations flying around this thread about how women are horrible and keep running off with men's kids for no good reason are bs and are not adding at all to the debate. I figured that by illustrating a case that makes it obvious that yes, in fact, sometimes there IS a good reason to keep your child away from a man, without it having anything to do with the woman being a bitch.

The law would've impaired my own and my mother's life drastically. I said I don't care about it because it would have accomplished absolutely nothing for us. I said I don't care about it in this case, because I don't. It doesn't mean I don't care about it in general, but this is not what I'm arguing. I just want the bs generalizations to stop.

For the record, I believe that law should be gender-blind and put the child in the hands of the best, most adept parent, but currently the system it takes to get there is far too harrowing for most to even bother with.

So as long as you win, who cares abiut anyone else?
Right

metrovelvet · 19-01-2011 6:45pm

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Check this thread out. We have Metro peeing all over the fantastic and perfectly equal parenting legislation that exists in Scandinavia.

I tend to find that everyone agrees that 'we should think of the children' up until the point where the debate reaches discussion about changing the system to make it more equitable.

Then we get hand-wringing from mothers that the current system isn't perfect and so on, but no support whatsoever for actually changing it to something more equal, which really would be in the best interests (not to mention human rights) of children.

My personal situation is fine. For me the fight's long over. I'm that rare beast - the single father with full custody who fought and won. You wouldn't believe what it took me to do so - the years, the money, the lawyers, the missed career opportunities, the denials of access, the missed holidays and celebrations. Many sacrifices. I had to set a number of precedents in Irish law along the way.

I could rest on my laurels now and enjoy being a father. But that would be selfish, I feel. No one else should have to undergo the difficulties I did. No parent, father or mother, should have to experience that.

And for that reason alone, I am adamant that we must have equal parenting enshrined in Irish law as a core tenet to protect the human rights of children.

When I find that mothers are prepared to concede the heavy weighting in their favour that they currently enjoy to facilitate that, then you'll never hear from me on this topic again, and I'll be off enjoying parenting my child.

You totally dragged this thread off topic with your ideological agenda. This thread was about dads who choose to walk away from their kids and you turned it into a snide attacks on mothers, including the mother of one poster who was open and brave enough to talk about her own experience growing up without a father.

Stheno · 19-01-2011 6:50pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

This thread was about dads who choose to walk away from their kids

I read it as being a thread about fathers who are absent.

Imo there are many reasons other than a father walking away as to why a father might be absent.

liah · 19-01-2011 6:52pm

norrie rugger wrote: »

So as long as you win, who cares abiut anyone else?
Right

What? Who said anything about 'winning'? What is that supposed to be in reference to?

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Surely you can see my position, though? To legislate on the basis of that case would be to permit any mother to unilaterally remove all fathers' rights at any time of their choosing, without legal endorsement or notice.
There's no way I'd ever support anything like that, just as I don't support the opposite scenario as it plays out in Muslim countries, where women are routinely disenfranchised by fathers.

When did I mention legislation? I told an anecdotal story about my own experience. I stated that the current system in most countries is too harrowing for a lot of people to go through leading to seriously messy situations like what happened with me. I didn't say it's right for everyone. I said she did what was right by us.

I have also explained my point was to give an example in an effort to make the generalizations about the reasons why women may take off with the kid stop.

CDfm · 19-01-2011 6:53pm

liah wrote: »

It isn't what happened in my case so I don't see how it's relevant. My point is, yes, fathers have a right to be scared but mothers damn well have a right to protect themselves from threats..

Gender is sort of irellevant in a lot of this and nobody wants to live a Jerry Springer lifestyle.

The generalizations about women taking away children on this thread are driving me batty.

The legal system is adversorial and this brings the worst out in people. If one partner does not want to be with the other or want different things in life you are going to have problems if you introduce them into the "Family Law Fight Club".

It always strikes me that women , such as your Mum, who the resourses should be there for are almost crowded out of the system by others and that is a travesty.

Reward · 19-01-2011 6:55pm

Mental illness and addiction are bound to be significant when it comes to men walking out of a child's life too. Really, I don't think that the claim that men are walking out on children of their own selfishness in great numbers holds much water at all.

Cavehill Red · 19-01-2011 6:56pm

liah wrote: »

I have also explained my point was to give an example in an effort to make the generalizations about the reasons why women may take off with the kid stop.

What generalisations?
I cited an example of a father who has been searching for his kid in Central America for the guts of a decade after the mother absconded. You raised your own background. Now, your anecdotal evidence is no better or worse than mine. Neither of us were generalising on that topic. If anything, we were both dealing in the particulars of single cases.

Stheno · 19-01-2011 7:00pm

Reward wrote: »

in truth women mistreat and abuse children more than men, so if its really is about the children, why the focus on men? Answer, because its not really about the children, its really about the interests of the women that chose to give birth to them.

Reward wrote: »

B

A study in the UK showed that 70% of women admitted to interfering with the fathers custody rights in order to punish him, many fathers are excluded against their will.

Reward wrote: »

And lets not for get that women are initiating approaching 80% of dicorces and that the UK is very feminist and so fathers as not seen as necessary in the first place.

Can you provide links to the studies/figures you posted? I don't believe that the 80% figure in quote three is correct.

liah · 19-01-2011 7:02pm

Reward wrote: »

Mental illness and addiction are bound to be significant when it comes to men walking out of a child's life too. Really, I don't think that the claim that men are walking out on children of their own selfishness in great numbers holds much water at all.

Neither does the reverse.

Cavehill Red wrote: »

What generalisations?
I cited an example of a father who has been searching for his kid in Central America for the guts of a decade after the mother absconded. You raised your own background. Now, your anecdotal evidence is no better or worse than mine. Neither of us were generalising on that topic. If anything, we were both dealing in the particulars of single cases.

I wasn't referring to you, you started responding to me, not vice versa afaik. But there are quite a few generalizations scattered around the thread from various posters, it's really disheartening seeing this turned into an "us vs. them" thing.

Stheno · 19-01-2011 7:03pm

Reward wrote: »

Mental illness and addiction are bound to be significant when it comes to men walking out of a child's life too. Really, I don't think that the claim that men are walking out on children of their own selfishness in great numbers holds much water at all.

You've also got death, lack of awareness of being a parent as factors. If the report the OP took their figure from actually gave any sort of survey details and how the figure was arrived at it would be more helpful

metrovelvet · 19-01-2011 7:14pm

Cavehill Red wrote: »

What generalisations?
I cited an example of a father who has been searching for his kid in Central America for the guts of a decade after the mother absconded. You raised your own background. Now, your anecdotal evidence is no better or worse than mine. Neither of us were generalising on that topic. If anything, we were both dealing in the particulars of single cases.

Why are you bringing that up? There are plenty of examples of fathers abducting their children too. Why is that relevent to a discussion around abandonment?

CDfm · 19-01-2011 7:16pm

liah wrote: »

, it's really disheartening seeing this turned into an "us vs. them" thing.

+1

metrovelvet · 19-01-2011 7:19pm

liah wrote: »

it's really disheartening seeing this turned into an "us vs. them" thing.

...any excuse really.

Cavehill Red · 19-01-2011 7:25pm

liah wrote: »

I wasn't referring to you, you started responding to me, not vice versa afaik. But there are quite a few generalizations scattered around the thread from various posters, it's really disheartening seeing this turned into an "us vs. them" thing.

Again, what generalisations about women abducting children are you referring to?
And I don't see how it has turned into an adversarial discussion. The OP suggested a quarter of British dads had abandoned their kids. There's no evidence whatsoever for that, and I think we've all accepted that now.
Now, I've proposed we should introduce a Scandinavian-style equal parenting system into Ireland (and Britain for that matter.) Perhaps some people are "vs me" on that proposal, but it they are it is equality that they are opposing, not me.

Reward · 19-01-2011 7:28pm

Stheno wrote: »

You've also got death, lack of awareness of being a parent as factors. If the report the OP took their figure from actually gave any sort of survey details and how the figure was arrived at it would be more helpful

Right, so on this thread between us we have come up with what 8 or 9 different situations outside of his selfishly walking away from his children that contribute to that 25% but aren't controlled for. And 25% is a figure in the extreme because its UK figures.

Men have been unjustly maligned on this for decades now.

AnnyHallsal · 19-01-2011 7:29pm

Reward wrote: »

Men have been unjustly maligned on this for decades now.

As a solution for which you choose to malign women with your own spurious statistics?

metrovelvet · 19-01-2011 7:32pm

The responses to the OP have been so inappropriate and typical of what happens on boards.

Its the equivalent of someone saying 'oh gosh all the poor kids in the UK who get eyelid cancer' followed by a tirade of responses containing how there are not that many and its the mother's fault anyway.

TeddyTedson · 19-01-2011 7:36pm

Fittle wrote: »

My question is why can't the fathers rights people just ACKNOWLEDGE the fact that there are men out there who abandon their children, without finishing every one of their sentences with 'but...(irish law/mothers who won't let their kids see their fathers/women are mad etc)...

Why can't they just accept the fact that some men choose to walk away?

And why does even the mention of this issue, on this and other sites bring them to the fore and then go on to drag every single conversation into a 'The father who wants to see his children VERSUS The woman who won't let him see his children' even when it's off-topic

I can acknowledge the fact that some women will not allow their children to see their fathers, and while in some instances, this is in the best interests of the children, in some it's not, and that is inherently WRONG.

And I can also acknowledge the fact that there are also men who choose to walk away and abandon their children. And that too, is inherently WRONG.

This debate goes round and round and round and neither side will agree because they are both discussing different issues;

1. The issue of the mother who won't allow the kids to see the father
2. The issue of the father who walks away.

They are not connected. The father who walks away IS NOT the same as the fathers who want to see their children. And the mother who will not allow her children to see their father, IS NOT dealing with a father who walked away.

You forgot to do a special 1000th post!:(

liah · 19-01-2011 7:38pm

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Again, what generalisations about women abducting children are you referring to?
And I don't see how it has turned into an adversarial discussion. The OP suggested a quarter of British dads had abandoned their kids. There's no evidence whatsoever for that, and I think we've all accepted that now.
Now, I've proposed we should introduce a Scandinavian-style equal parenting system into Ireland (and Britain for that matter.) Perhaps some people are "vs me" on that proposal, but it they are it is equality that they are opposing, not me.

The ones Reward has been making pretty consistently throughout the thread, throwing around figures like 70% of women do this and 80% of women do that with nothing to back up what he's saying.

e.g.

in truth women mistreat and abuse children more than men, so if its really is about the children, why the focus on men? Answer, because its not really about the children, its really about the interests of the women that chose to give birth to them

A study in the UK showed that 70% of women admitted to interfering with the fathers custody rights in order to punish him, many fathers are excluded against their will.

And lets not for get that women are initiating approaching 80% of dicorces and that the UK is very feminist and so fathers as not seen as necessary in the first place.

Plus this is feminist UK we are talking about, they have been engineering fathers out of the equasion for decades.

UK has an established single mother on the dole as a career culture and these people often lie about the whereabouts of the father.

...

Whats more the UK is a very feminist country, fathers are viewed as disposable and generally not needed in the first place.

I'd imagine that the number of women that abort, abandon, walk out on and force or abuse fathers out against their will is beyond the number of fathers that willfully walk out on their children.

etc

Cavehill Red · 19-01-2011 7:40pm

Er, not a single mention of women abducting children in any of those, Liah.

liah · 19-01-2011 7:43pm

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Er, not a single mention of women abducting children in any of those, Liah.

When did I say "abducting"?

"I'd imagine that the number of women that abort, abandon, walk out on and force or abuse fathers out against their will is beyond the number of fathers that willfully walk out on their children."

This is what I initially took offense to, or rather at least would like a source for.

Cavehill Red · 19-01-2011 7:51pm

liah wrote: »

When did I say "abducting"?

When you said -

liah wrote:

I have also explained my point was to give an example in an effort to make the generalizations about the reasons why women may take off with the kid stop.

I'd have thought that 'take off with the kid' and 'abducting' the kid were synonymous. They are in the eyes of the law anyway.

liah wrote: »

"I'd imagine that the number of women that abort, abandon, walk out on and force or abuse fathers out against their will is beyond the number of fathers that willfully walk out on their children."

This is what I initially took offense to, or rather at least would like a source for.

That's the one statement he did provide supporting evidence for. Over 180,000 abortions in the UK per annum. There's no way there's even a fraction of that amount of fathers willfully abandoning their kids.

I just had a quick look online and it appears that women are the appellants in UK divorces in approximately 2/3 of cases (figures up to 2005).

Reward · 19-01-2011 7:52pm

AnnyHallsal wrote: »

As a solution for which you choose to malign women with your own spurious statistics?

Pointing out the other contributing factors is not maligning women, women are not beyond reproach, they are adults not children or sacred cows and are just as capable of taking responsibility as men are, despite popular beliefs.

Stigmatizing fathers and absent fathers for decades and holding them responsible for all that has gone wrong is maligning men, maligning men is so normal to many people, including the OP they do it without noticing.

AnnyHallsal · 19-01-2011 7:57pm

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Over 180,000 abortions in the UK per annum. There's no way there's even a fraction of that amount of fathers willfully abandoning their kids.

What a truly bizarre correlation. What point are we to take from this?

Reward wrote: »

women are not beyond reproach, they are adults not children or sacred cows and just as capable of taking responsibility as men are, despite popular beliefs.

Whoever suggested otherwise.

metrovelvet · 19-01-2011 7:58pm

He is trying to equate abortion with abandonment. Its the usual off topic tactic. We are not talking about women who had abortions. We are talking about living children who do not know who their fathers are to take the spotlight of the fathers. Denial denial denial. Sink in a river of it.

Otis Driftwood · 19-01-2011 8:00pm

Ok folks,Im locking this thread for a little bit as Im up to my eyes with RL stuff so dont just have the time for now to address what needs addressing.What I will say is everyone should by now be aware of our charter amendment,ignorance will not be accepted as an excuse for not following rules,I will be back ASAP,please bear with me,cheers.

Cavehill Red · 19-01-2011 8:00pm

AnnyHallsal wrote: »

What a truly bizarre correlation. What point are we to take from this?

Reward suggested that the total "number of women that abort, abandon, walk out on and force or abuse fathers out against their will is beyond the number of fathers that willfully walk out on their children."
That's 180,000 + the number of women who abandon their children or force fathers out against their will each year > the number of men who abandon their kids each year.
Self-evidently, he's right. Though I concur, I'm not sure what he was exactly driving at with that particular bit of maths.

AnnyHallsal · 19-01-2011 8:02pm

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Reward suggested that the total "number of women that abort, abandon, walk out on and force or abuse fathers out against their will is beyond the number of fathers that willfully walk out on their children."
That's 180,000 + the number of women who abandon their children or force fathers out against their will each year > the number of men who abandon their kids each year.
Self-evidently, he's right. Though I concur, I'm not sure what he was exactly driving at with that particular bit of maths.

Exactly the us versus them mentality I refuse to condone.

Absent Fathers

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