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Viablity of a new track in the West of Ireland

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  • 11-11-2014 11:43am
    #1
    Atominist
    Registered Users Posts: 33 ✭


    Hello, I am a third year student at GMIT in Co. Mayo.

    I am conducting a report for my Business Research module. The subject of the proposed report is along the lines of "The Viability of a new Race Track in the West of Ireland", or there abouts.

    I would like to hear the thoughts of you, the motorsport community and the fans, on the subject. I have also included a poll I would like you to answer.

    I especially would like your opinions on if you are in favour or not of a new permanent race circuit here in Ireland, and if you think the West of Ireland would be a suitable destination.

    I would like to thank you in advance for your views and opinions.

    Would you be in favour of a new Race Track in the West of Ireland? 23 votes

    Yes, a new track would be good in the West
    0% 0 votes
    Yes, but not in the West
    56% 13 votes
    No, there is no need for a new track
    43% 10 votes


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    #2
    Robbo
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 10,555 Mod ✭✭✭✭Robbo


    Have you talked to the lads in Tynagh? They've recently done work to bring Rallycross to the facility so they might give you some insight into what's required. I'm sure they've weight up what would be needed to race cars there as well.


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    #3
    Drummerboy08
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,102 ✭✭✭✭Drummerboy08


    I'd love a second proper second track but when you consider that Mondello takes a lot of work to make ends meet, and with two other tracks up north, i can't see demand meeting supply.


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    #4
    flazio
    Registered Users Posts: 12,810 ✭✭✭✭flazio


    Kart tracks have come and gone, (remember the one that Eddie Irvine unveiled in Oranmore?)
    Motorsport isn't that big a draw in the west at the moment. It peaked in the time when the two Eddies (Irvine and Jordan) were doing well in Formula 1 but faded out in the middle of the Noughties.
    Tynagh have now had to branch out to other forms of entertainment such as Paintballing.


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    #5
    Scotty #
    Registered Users Posts: 3,767 ✭✭✭Scotty #


    Drummerboy08 wrote: »
    i can't see demand meeting supply.
    That's it in a nutshell. We just don't have a big enough fan base for motorsport in this country.

    I'd love to see a world class international circuit that could host everything right up to F1 but the only place I could ever see that work is in the Phoenix Park.


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    #6
    antodeco
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 13,425 ✭✭✭✭antodeco


    If they opened a proper race track along the border, it would do quite well from both sides of the border. Land is not the concern within Ireland for a racetrack, but more so the cost and irish workers inability to do anything properly.

    I would love to see F1 in Ireland. It would do very well from a tourism point of view. What you need to look at though is that would it be better to build a new track, or use the same money to upgrade mondello into a higher graded international circuit.


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    #7
    irishgeo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,369 ✭✭✭irishgeo


    i think it motorsport being such a expensive sport that's caused the downturn.


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    #8
    se conman
    Registered Users Posts: 981 ✭✭✭se conman


    I think your poll needs another option
    "A new race circuit is not commercially viable"
    There is not, in my opinion, any doubt about the fact that there would be no financial return on the investment required to build a new race circuit or even up grade Mondello Park despite all our wishful thinking. Despite motorsport in Ireland being a "clubman sport" it is still covered by the "NO MUN, NO FUN" rule.


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    #9
    ScumLord
    Registered Users Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    irishgeo wrote: »
    i think it motorsport being such a expensive sport that's caused the downturn.
    That's the big problem, if someone were to open a new track they'd have to find a way to provide cheap motorsport so it can appeal to more people. It would have to be very easy and cheap for people to go and having a track in the arse end of connemara won't be easy to get to. If it's beside the new motorway that's supposed to be built maybe not so bad.

    I can see it being difficult finding somewhere that wouldn't come with a load of locals up in arms shouting, "it would ruin the countryside, the noise that would be coming out of the place, it would attract boy racers to our town that would run our children over, it would upset the cows"...

    Mondello seems reasonable enough price wise these days it's just that if you're more than a county away from there, there's the hassle of getting there as an excuse not to go.

    I would love to see it but it would be a big investment with no guarantee of success. Whoever puts the money in would have to be well connected to strike deals to get races happening there that people would want to see.


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    #10
    Brendan Flowers
    Registered Users Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭Brendan Flowers


    Somewhere around Athlone would be an ideal location for a new track. Center of Ireland, beside the Galway-Dublin motorway and about an hour from both cities. Would be a huge investment but it's something that is needed if motorsport is to grow in ireland. And Im not talking about an F1 standard circuit, something similar to Mondello, that could host some international racing series would be sufficient IMO.


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    #11
    ScumLord
    Registered Users Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    LIGHTNING wrote: »
    The guys from the UK wont even come to Mondello (its rare to get some over for the Ford Festival), there isn't a hope of them going to the midlands!
    I always thought that was because modello was a bit too narrow for modern racing?

    The track would also need to cater for a minimum amount of people if it hopes to hold international races. It's no good having a great track if a race series has no hope of making money because there isn't enough room for spectators.


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    #12
    Brendan Flowers
    Registered Users Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭Brendan Flowers


    LIGHTNING wrote: »
    The guys from the UK wont even come to Mondello (its rare to get some over for the Ford Festival), there isn't a hope of them going to the midlands!

    It'd be almost as easy to for those guys to get to Athlone as it is for them to travel to Mondello.


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    #13
    Robbo
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 10,555 Mod ✭✭✭✭Robbo


    I had a lengthy post on on this earlier but my browser calved so I'll just raise a couple of quick points.

    On the issue of land; look at an aerial map or, better yet, a Land Registry one of the areas mooted (border counties). We're a nation of smallholders. Add to this the proud history of hiving off 2 acre sites for one off rural housing and you're quickly running out of contiguous blocks of land to put a well specced facility.

    There's also the issue of local objections. Every infrastructure project these days has it's objections (usually cured with cash, naturally) in relation to noise, mysterious voodoo rays, visual amenity and the like. If one were so inclined there's a number of ways that you could halt a project. Now that we've adopted the Aarhus Convention fully in this country, there's basically no risk whatsoever to a person objecting to anything on environmental grounds.

    Finally, our position in relation to nuisance (in a legal sense) has always been largely informed by developments in the UK. There have been some worrying developments over there in relation to existing facilities. OP might want to check out some of the famous Lord Denning judgments from the UK in relation to how this has developed.


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    #14
    challengemaster
    Registered Users Posts: 16,931 ✭✭✭✭challengemaster


    flazio wrote: »
    Kart tracks have come and gone, (remember the one that Eddie Irvine unveiled in Oranmore?)
    Motorsport isn't that big a draw in the west at the moment. It peaked in the time when the two Eddies (Irvine and Jordan) were doing well in Formula 1 but faded out in the middle of the Noughties.
    Tynagh have now had to branch out to other forms of entertainment such as Paintballing.
    Scotty # wrote: »
    That's it in a nutshell. We just don't have a big enough fan base for motorsport in this country.

    I'd love to see a world class international circuit that could host everything right up to F1 but the only place I could ever see that work is in the Phoenix Park.

    I think the killer is really that the entry points to motorsport (even karting) is so expensive. Even recreational karting is still very expensive. When people have limited extra money to spare, it's far easier to pick cheaper things to do.
    LIGHTNING wrote: »
    Well the BTCC and British Superbikes used to run on the track as well as EX-F1 cars in the Euroboss series. The size isn't an issue, its worth mentioning that Mondello is longer than some of the current F1 tracks.

    Do the (lack of) run offs in mondello have anything to do with that?


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    #15
    Atominist
    Registered Users Posts: 33 ✭Atominist


    I'd like to thank you all for your feedback. The deadline for my report is nearly here, due to time constraints and family life the report won't be as good as I'd like. If you like I could give people who PM me a copy.

    I would have liked to interview Michael Ring TD, Minister of State at the Department of Transport, Tourism & Sport, maybe even Enda Kenny (I know someone who knows them) but just didn't have the time. I also would have liked to talk to Eddie Jordan, but I'd say he's hard to contact.

    I tried to contact Motorsport Ireland, but I did not get a reply. I was surprised there is not a forum on their website.

    The lack of a fan base in Ireland for Motorsport at the moment would probably put investors off, and there probably won't be any Public/State money either due to the current economic situation.

    I'm also wondering if people in Ireland preferred Rallying, primarily hosted on public roads and gravel tracks negates the need for a race track.

    I had the feeling that the extreme West like Co. Mayo might not be suitable, I like the suggestion of the Athlone area because of good infrastructure and geographically central to Ireland. And if it was just inside Co. Roscommon near Athlone it would still technically best the West.

    Although I was aware of Pallas Karting before conducting this report, I was not aware of the scale of the place apparently “Europe's Largest Karting Centre”. Good to see they host some Rallycross and Drifting events. While a new track in the West might never happen, if the track has the potential to expand this is encouraging and a good compromise.


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    #16
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    LIGHTNING wrote: »
    Mondello is longer than some of the current F1 tracks.
    Only Monaco. :P


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    #17
    Drummerboy08
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,102 ✭✭✭✭Drummerboy08


    antodeco wrote: »
    If they opened a proper race track along the border, it would do quite well from both sides of the border. Land is not the concern within Ireland for a racetrack, but more so the cost and irish workers inability to do anything properly.

    I would love to see F1 in Ireland. It would do very well from a tourism point of view. What you need to look at though is that would it be better to build a new track, or use the same money to upgrade mondello into a higher graded international circuit.

    There are two very good circuits less than a 2 hour drive from Dublin up North, no need for a third. Same problem, different location.

    Mondello actually already has status to host World Rallycross events. The problem with Mondello for the likes of an F1 car is it's very technical, and stop start. It's hard for an F1 car to stretch it's legs around Mondello.

    The other problem with Ireland in general in relation to F1 is that there's no reason for Bernie to bring the F1 Circus to town. Silverstone in the UK is one of the bigger events on the F1 calendar, and yet it struggles to make money.
    irishgeo wrote: »
    i think it motorsport being such a expensive sport that's caused the downturn.

    Motorsport (at least circuit racing) is relatively cheap in Ireland compared to the UK and further afield.
    challengemaster wrote: »
    I think the killer is really that the entry points to motorsport (even karting) is so expensive. Even recreational karting is still very expensive. When people have limited extra money to spare, it's far easier to pick cheaper things to do.



    Do the (lack of) run offs in mondello have anything to do with that?

    You could race in Mondello in your first year in an entry class for probably 6 or 7 grand all in - car, suit/helmet/entry fees/maintenance. Smoking for most people is a more expensive hobby.

    There's plenty of run off in Mondello, not sure what you mean there.


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    #18
    Brendan Flowers
    Registered Users Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭Brendan Flowers


    Atominist wrote: »
    I'd like to thank you all for your feedback. The deadline for my report is nearly here, due to time constraints and family life the report won't be as good as I'd like. If you like I could give people who PM me a copy.

    I would have liked to interview Michael Ring TD, Minister of State at the Department of Transport, Tourism & Sport, maybe even Enda Kenny (I know someone who knows them) but just didn't have the time. I also would have liked to talk to Eddie Jordan, but I'd say he's hard to contact.

    I tried to contact Motorsport Ireland, but I did not get a reply. I was surprised there is not a forum on their website.

    The lack of a fan base in Ireland for Motorsport at the moment would probably put investors off, and there probably won't be any Public/State money either due to the current economic situation.

    I'm also wondering if people in Ireland preferred Rallying, primarily hosted on public roads and gravel tracks negates the need for a race track.

    I had the feeling that the extreme West like Co. Mayo might not be suitable, I like the suggestion of the Athlone area because of good infrastructure and geographically central to Ireland. And if it was just inside Co. Roscommon near Athlone it would still technically best the West.

    Although I was aware of Pallas Karting before conducting this report, I was not aware of the scale of the place apparently “Europe's Largest Karting Centre”. Good to see they host some Rallycross and Drifting events. While a new track in the West might never happen, if the track has the potential to expand this is encouraging and a good compromise.

    If you could find an nice piece of area out near Hudson Bay (5 minutes outside Athlone going to Roscommon town) that could make for a very good location. Like I said before access would be very good, it'd be right beside a hotel, the area is scenic and you'd Lough Ree/River Shannon as your backdrop.

    Good luck with the report!


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    #19
    CharlieCroker
    Registered Users Posts: 8,451 ✭✭✭CharlieCroker


    Would there be any place in the country for a Santa Pod style raceway/dragstrip.

    Less space required, "run what you brung" days, forum meets, cheaper operating fees than a full size track, maybe even cheaper than some karting tracks.

    I think the major obstacle is probably insurance. I can't imagine that can be gotten cheap!


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    #20
    Drummerboy08
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,102 ✭✭✭✭Drummerboy08


    CharlieCroker wrote: »
    Would there be any place in the country for a Santa Pod style raceway/dragstrip.

    Less space required, "run what you brung" days, forum meets, cheaper operating fees than a full size track, maybe even cheaper than some karting tracks.

    I think the major obstacle is probably insurance. I can't imagine that can be gotten cheap!

    The problem with drag racing is that a lot of people (myself included) find it fairly boring after a couple of runs.

    Bishopscourt up north run drag events, it's based on an old RAF airfield so it's a fairly big strip.


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    #21
    Schwiiing
    Registered Users Posts: 2,650 ✭✭✭Schwiiing


    I doubt a full F1 capable track is viable anywhere in this country. How much land would be necessary to build 1? As soon as 1 would be proposed there would be an avalanche of NIMBYists and hippies moaning about destruction of natural beauty, noise pollution etc. Same as they are with wind farms and incinerators.

    The cost, you're talking 100s of millions at the minimum. Who would stump up that cash for a possible White Elephant that would only fill once a year.

    Silverstone is an hours flight to Stansted and another hour up the motorway? Huge numbers of Irish fans make that trip every year but I doubt English fans would be arsed coming over here. Silverstone has history and England has a much larger F1 fanbase.

    Motorsport is a minority sport in this country. Our 2 biggest sports, Hurling and Football, can only fill an 80.000 seater stadium a couple of times a year.


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    #22
    Timmaay
    Registered Users Posts: 11,394 ✭✭✭✭Timmaay


    LIGHTNING wrote: »
    F1 wont come to Ireland regardless if we had the greatest ever race track.

    Not that we'd want Bernie and co bending us over and taking us for a total ride, F1 from an economic point of view is a total disaster in almost every respect, much like the world cup/Olympics etc etc, the host nation pays a stupid price for their 15mins of fame which has zero chance of paying back for itself in tourist turnover etc.


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    #23
    rushvalley
    Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭rushvalley


    Seen as drifting has taken off here in the last few years, what about a track designed for drifting?

    It would be better than watching lads drifting just the one bend in the likes of ennis mart or punchestown race course IMO. Then maybe have track days for anyone to have a go drifting themselves with a cheap and cheerful rwd.


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    #24
    flazio
    Registered Users Posts: 12,810 ✭✭✭✭flazio


    I actually thought a World Rally Stage like we had a few years ago would have been a perfect fit for Ireland. No need to build anything permanent just use what we've got. Seems not sadly.


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    #25
    Sterling Archer
    Registered Users Posts: 2,252 ✭✭✭Sterling Archer


    Here's my 2c

    Firstly we'd need to forget about FIA standards, that is costly and well not pay off, possibly try to build towards that but even that is expensive.

    If you wanted to build a track in "The West" I would suggest it be built within the region of Galway/Clare/Limerick, relatively close to the motorway network.

    To build the track to survive you need to both make it capable of holding multiple series and be future proof in some manner, get the track layout right and build amenities after, even just building a stand, tower/race control and an infield set of garages would be enough to start with, using a basic "american" style pits with just a pit wall and inside pit wall would be enough to get started

    The ideal track layout would have the first series of corners visible from the Main stand, and be suited to a "drifting series"

    The track should be wider than mondello where possible.

    It should have rally-cross sections, also allowing the circuit to host super special stages for its local rally championship.

    Personally I think it would be about building a good race calender, quality over quantity, but being able to host a drift series, rally-cross, cheap race series, and mutli race days would be needed, Mondello does it, and frankly one of the reasons I don't get to Mondello that often is due to it's location, as i'm based in the west.


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    #26
    ianobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 2,756 ✭✭✭ianobrien


    flazio wrote: »
    I actually thought a World Rally Stage like we had a few years ago would have been a perfect fit for Ireland. No need to build anything permanent just use what we've got. Seems not sadly.

    One of the main reasons it never came back was the prices the local hotels and B&B's were charging for rooms. Some of the teams reported it was cheaper to stay in Monte Carlo than Sligo at the time. Basically, greedy locals drove it away.


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    #27
    Cool_CM
    Registered Users Posts: 4,937 ✭✭✭Cool_CM


    LIGHTNING wrote: »
    Yup everybody got fleeced and it left a very sour taste in everybody's mouth. We have nobody to blame but ourselves. But then again anytime a big event comes over to Ireland that happens.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVo38a46zdc


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