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Interesting Stuff Thread

1102103105107108132

Comments

  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Turtwig wrote: »
    Wonder if they'll accept moderators of a Christianity forum?
    I say go for it!

    You can count on my support.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    robindch wrote: »
    Looking for a job? Interested in religion? Hungry to work accurately? This could be the job for you!

    http://www.irishcatholic.ie/article/irish-catholic-vacancy-news-editor

    All the same, it could be the opportunity to pull off the troll of the century too.
    In the last census, almost 93% of Irish people identified themselves with a religious faith.

    Somehow I don't think an ability to ensure accuracy will be any part of the news editor's role. Because if the paper were being accurate they wouldn't have included this sentence, because we cannot infer levels of religious faith from the results of the last census, and if we actually look at deeper statistical measures of faith, the rcc has effectively admitted that a full tenth of their flock (currently about 20% of the country in reality, despite what rcc apologists will say about the census) believe that god is fictional, meaning they themselves lack religious faith.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    In Ireland??

    Trying to be charitable here and not accuse them of lying - do they mean

    (a) there are 2,000,000 attendees at mass over the course of a week, including repeat visits

    (b) there are 2,000,000 attendees at mass over the course of a week, not including repeat visits

    (c) there are 2,000,000 attendees who go to mass every single week

    Clearly they mean (a), but what they hope to imply is at least (b) and given a bit of media inaccuracy/hype, (c).

    Even that 2,000,000 figure is complete padding, given that there is c. 3.5m people in the country baptised catholic, 2m would be 4/7ths of the total theoretical catholic population, and given that we know the actual figure for attendance is at about 20% of catholics that would mean 700,000 at best attend mass on a regular basis. Now this twenty percent figure is as a result of a survey commissioned and publicised by the rcc, so ideally corrections should be made for two biases, i) the propensity for people to lie in surveys to make themselves look better, and ii) the propensity for a survey on the health of an organisation under the complete control of that same organisation to have its results padded to make them look better for that organisation; therefore I'm going to lop off a further 100,000 off that figure of 700,000 attendees giving a rough figure of 600,000 people who attend mass regularly (and I'm being generous here, ommitting the fact that going to mass once a month is regular {and far more common than the average which is c. 10 times in a life}, and giving what I'd consider to be a low number of people to cut due to bias).

    Therefore for the paper to get 2,000,000 mass footfalls in a week, every regular mass goer would have to attend at least three masses a week. That's simply not going to happen.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith



    Therefore for the paper to get 2,000,000 mass footfalls in a week, every regular mass goer would have to attend at least three masses a week. That's simply not going to happen.
    There are some elderly people who would attend mass up to 7 times a week, but I don't know if there'd be enough of them to make up the numbers.


  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Liana Important Pea


    One for Randi

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-28464009
    Astrology-loving MP seeks health answers in the stars
    A Conservative MP has spoken of his belief in astrology and his desire to incorporate it into medicine.

    David Tredinnick said he had spent 20 years studying astrology and healthcare and was convinced it could work.

    (not really religion based, but not sure where else to put this!)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    I'm tempted to send in a fake CV. :pac:
    Go on, I'll give you a reference.

    "PopePalpatine has been the Chief Marketing Consultant of my personal religious cult for the past 12 months. So far I have only accumulated two attendees per week, but this is no reflection on his abilities. He has expressed his desire to move on to a more challenging role within an organisation having two million attendees per week, and I wish him all the best in his future career."


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Where's my feckin reference you clout? :mad:

    It better be published in 48 hours or the ban hammer may swing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,442 ✭✭✭Sulla Felix


    So, never noticed the original passage of the law, but Amazons thumbing of the nose is amusing.
    Basically, France passed a law banning free delivery on books as a protectionist policy favouring bricks and mortar. Amazon responds by charging €0.01
    They'll probably amend it to be a % of the sale value or something. :rolleyes:

    http://time.com/2976723/amazon-france-free-shipping/


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    A blackbird seems to know how to start opening a bottle of water:



  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Isn't that a jackdaw? Clever, clever birds.


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,178 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    this is about the only thing which makes soccer interesting:

    http://www.futilitycloset.com/2014/07/22/the-strangest-soccer-match-ever/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,579 ✭✭✭swampgas


    The Duelling Loops from www.thwink.org

    Interesting model explaining how political corruption is so endemic.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Vox.com's list of the top ten religion-related articles from The New Yorker - available while its archives are opened up for a few months:

    http://www.vox.com/2014/7/23/5926393/10-new-yorker-religion-articles-to-read-while-the-archives-are-free


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Ever heard of Prince Ruper's Drop? Neither did I until this morning:

    http://www.fromquarkstoquasars.com/prince-ruperts-drop-video/



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    So, never noticed the original passage of the law, but Amazons thumbing of the nose is amusing.
    Basically, France passed a law banning free delivery on books as a protectionist policy favouring bricks and mortar. Amazon responds by charging €0.01
    They'll probably amend it to be a % of the sale value or something. :rolleyes:

    http://time.com/2976723/amazon-france-free-shipping/

    Closed account. :(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Hopefully Sulla Felix will respawn and reincarnate as a re-reg :)


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Some seriously neat animated GIF's illustrating concepts in maths + physics:

    http://www.fromquarkstoquasars.com/20-gifs-that-teach-you-science-concepts-better-than-your-teacher-probably-can/

    318371.gif


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Take one toxinologist, one microscope, one high-speed camera, an anenome and add one very enthusiastic researcher:



    BTW, he sounds like the toxinologist whom Douglas Adams met years ago for [url=]Last Chance to See[/url], but I'm sad to see that this was Struan Sutherland, who unfortunately died in 2002, and to whom the entire world is in debt for the following conversation:
    There is in Melbourne a man who probably knows more about poisonous snakes than anyone else on earth. His name is Dr Struan Sutherland, and he has devoted his entire life to a study of venom.
    'And I'm bored with talking about it,' he said when we went along to see him the next morning, laden with tape recorders and note books. 'Can't stand all these poisonous creatures, all these snakes and insects and fish and things. Wretched things, biting everybody. And then people expect me to tell them what to do about it. I'll tell them what to do. Don't get bitten in the first place. That's the answer. I've had enough of telling people all the time. Hydroponics, now, that's interesting. Talk to you all you like about hydroponics. Fascinating stuff, growing plants artificially in water, very interesting technique. We'll need to know all about it if we're going to go to Mars and places. Where did you say you were going?'
    'Komodo.'
    'Well, don't get bitten, that's all I can say. And don't come running to me if you do because you won't get here in time and anyway I've got enough on my plate. Look at this office. Full of poisonous animals all over the place. See this tank? It's full of fire ants. Venomous little creatures, what are we going to do about them? Anyway, I got some little cakes in in case you were hungry. Would you like some little cakes? I can't remember where I put them. There's some tea but it's not very good. Sit down for heaven's sake.
    'So, you're going to Komodo. Well, I don't know why you want to do that, but I suppose you have your reasons. There are fifteen different types of snake on Komodo, and half of them are poisonous. The only potentially deadly ones are the Russell's viper, the bamboo viper and the Indian cobra.
    The Indian cobra is the fifteenth deadliest snake in the world, and all the other fourteen are here in Australia. That's why it's so hard for me to find time to get on with my hydroponics, with all these snakes all over the place.
    'And spiders. The most poisonous spider is the Sydney funnel web. We get about five hundred people a year bitten by spiders. A lot of them used to die, so we had to develop an antidote to stop people bothering me with it all the time. Took us years. Then we developed this snake bite detector kit. Not that you need a kit to tell you when you've been bitten by a snake, you usually know, but the kit is something that will detect what type you've been bitten by so you can treat it properly.
    'Would you like to see a kit? I've got a couple here in the venom fridge. Let's have a look. Ah look, the cakes are in here too. Quick, have one while they're still fresh. Fairy cakes, I baked 'em myself.'
    He handed round the snake venom detection kits and his home-baked fairy cakes and retreated back to his desk, where he beamed at us cheerfully from behind his curly beard and bow tie. We admired the kits, which were small, efficient boxes neatly packed with tiny bottles, a pipette, a syringe and a complicated set of instructions that I wouldn't want to read for the first time in a panic, and then we asked him how many of the snakes he had been bitten by himself.
    'None of 'em,' he said. 'Another area of expertise I've developed is that of getting other people to handle the dangerous animals. Won't do it myself. Don't want to get bitten, do I? You know what it says in my book jackets? "Hobbies: gardening -with gloves; fishing - with boots; travelling - with care." That's the answer. What else? Well, in addition to the boots wear thick, baggy trousers, and preferably have half a dozen people tramping along in front of you making as much noise as possible. The snakes pick up the vibrations and get out of your way, unless it's a death adder, otherwise known as the deaf adder, which just lies there. People can walk right past it and over it and nothing happens. I've heard of twelve people in a line walking over a death adder and the twelfth person accidentally trod on it and got bitten. Normally you're quite safe if you're twelfth in line. You're not eating your cakes. Come on, get them down you, there's plenty more in the venom fridge.'
    We asked, apprehensively, if any of the folk remedies or potions we'd heard about were any good.
    `Well, nine times out of ten they'll work fine for the simple reason that nine snake bites out of ten the victim doesn't get ill anyway. It's the last ten per cent that's the problem, and there's a lot of myths we've had to disentangle about snakes in order to get at the truth. You need accurate information. People's immediate response to snake bites is often to overreact and give the poor snake a ritual beating, which doesn't really help in the identification. If you don't know which exact snake it was you can't treat the bite properly.' .
    'Well, in that case,' I asked, 'could we perhaps take a snake bite detector kit with us to Komodo?
    'Course you can, course you can. Take as many as you like. Won't do you a blind bit of good because they're only for Australian snakes.'
    'So what do we do if we get bitten by something deadly, then? I asked.
    He blinked at me as if I were stupid.
    'Well what do you think you do? he said. 'You die of course. That's what deadly means.'
    'But what about cutting open the wound and sucking out the poison? I asked.
    'Rather you than me,' he said. 'I wouldn't want a mouthful of poison. Shouldn't do you much harm, though. Snake toxins have a high molecular weight, so they won't penetrate the blood vessels in the mouth the way that alcohol or some drugs do, and then the poison gets destroyed by the acids in your stomach. But it's not necessarily going to do much good, either. You're not likely to be able to get much of the poison out, but you're probably going to make the wound a lot worse trying. And in a place like Komodo it means you'd quickly have a seriously infected wound to contend with as well as a leg full of poison. Septicaemia, gangrene, you name it. It'll kill you.'
    `What about a tourniquet??
    'Fine if you don't mind having your leg off afterwards. You'd have to because if you cut off the blood supply to it completely it'll just die. And if you can find anyone in that part of Indonesia who you'd trust to take your leg off then you're a braver man than me. No, I'll tell you: the only thing you can do is apply a pressure bandage direct to the wound and wrap the whole leg up tightly, but not too tightly. Slow the blood flow but don't cut it off or you'll lose the leg. Keep the leg, or whatever bit of you it is you've been bitten in, lower than your heart and your head. Keep very, very still, breathe slowly and get to a doctor immediately. If you're on Komodo that means a couple of days, by which time you'll be well dead.
    `The only answer, and I mean this quite seriously, is don't get bitten. There's no reason why you should. Any of the snakes there will get out of your way well before you even see them. You don't really need to worry about the snakes if you're careful. No, the things you really need to worry about are the marine creatures.'
    `What?'
    `Scorpion fish, stonefish, sea snakes. Much more poisonous than anything on land. Get stung by a stone fish and the pain alone can kill you. People drown themselves just to stop the pain.'
    `Where are all these things??
    'Oh, just in the sea. Tons of them. I wouldn't go near it if I were you. Full of poisonous animals. Hate them.'
    `Is there anything you do like??
    'Yes,' he said. `Hydroponics.'


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 539 ✭✭✭chinacup


    Doing a course atm on memorization and learning techniques and one of the things mentioned are astrocytes. These little buggers are in your brain and apparently might have something to do with intelligence. When Einstein's brain was studied it was found that the only major difference between his brain and the masses were whooploads of extra astrocytes. They are a type of glial cell and were implanted in baby mice brains to see what would happen..

    Turns out they made mice smarter as was anticipated and they performed better in mice exams (que hilarious mental image of mice donned in tiny graduation cloaks, hats and scrolls). They think in the far away future these glial cells could play an important role in curing diseases such as parkinsons. Although what I want to find out is how I can get my hands on some extras and turn into the genius prodigy girl I was supposed to be... Shouldn't be too hard.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,964 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    I wonder if increasing your astrocyte count (if it's even possible) would count as cheating for exams. There's already some talk over "gene doping" becoming an issue in athletics in the near future.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Just having a quick google on astrocytes and what they do, it seems to me they are involved with brain "housekeeping," that is "disc cleanup" in PC speak and generally preventing or slowing down age related degeneration.
    If we take it that people accumulate knowledge and get "wiser" through life, while at the same time their brain might be slowing down, then if someone could continue getting wiser for a long time without any decrease in brain "power" they would seem to be very intelligent to others. If that is the case, then increasing your astrocyte count would not make you instantly smarter.

    So its like the theory that a Cro-Magnon man chasing animals around with a sharpened stick was just as intelligent as modern man, but had not accumulated as much knowledge as us.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 539 ✭✭✭chinacup


    recedite wrote: »
    Just having a quick google on astrocytes and what they do, it seems to me they are involved with brain "housekeeping," that is "disc cleanup" in PC speak and generally preventing or slowing down age related degeneration.
    If we take it that people accumulate knowledge and get "wiser" through life, while at the same time their brain might be slowing down, then if someone could continue getting wiser for a long time without any decrease in brain "power" they would seem to be very intelligent to others. If that is the case, then increasing your astrocyte count would not make you instantly smarter.

    So its like the theory that a Cro-Magnon man chasing animals around with a sharpened stick was just as intelligent as modern man, but had not accumulated as much knowledge as us.

    It also provides nutrient transportation as well though and also why would the young mice be smarter going by your theory?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 539 ✭✭✭chinacup


    http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/2810871

    "They grafted human astrocytes into the brain of mice and found that synaptic transmission, learning, and memory are enhanced beyond that of normal mice."

    "astrocytes can regulate communication between neurons at synapses and participate in the cellular mechanisms of learning and memory"


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    chinacup wrote: »
    and also why would the young mice be smarter going by your theory?
    Good point. I suppose the human versions work better at whatever they do, compared to the mouse versions. If all they did was "to maintain cellular conditions at an optimum level" within the brain, then transplanting more of them into a healthy human might have no effect, whereas transplanting them into a mouse where the conditions were naturally sub-optimal compared to a human might have an effect. If that was the case, transplanting them into a human with dementia,altzheimers, parkinsons etc. might have an even bigger effect.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,677 ✭✭✭Aenaes


    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-28886642

    "The arrival of three baby anacondas at West Midlands Safari Park is being heralded as a "miraculous virgin birth" by staff.

    Reptile handlers at the park believe they are the first snakes of their kind ever to be born in captivity, without any help from a male."

    I, for one, welcome our new reptilian messiahs and their saintly mother.

    However, it saddens me that male reproductive organs might no longer be needed. The future is a scary place.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    I hope the baby snakes will be alright growing up in a family where both parents are female ;)
    But which of the three babies is the anointed one? This presents a problem, unless one eats the other two, in which case we will have Cannibal Anaconda Jesus.
    I'll be heading over there with my gifts of gold, frankensteins and mice.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,167 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    recedite wrote: »
    Cannibal Anaconda Jesus

    This has to be in the running for the "future greatest movie title ever".


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    Aenaes wrote: »
    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-28886642

    "The arrival of three baby anacondas at West Midlands Safari Park is being heralded as a "miraculous virgin birth" by staff.

    Reptile handlers at the park believe they are the first snakes of their kind ever to be born in captivity, without any help from a male."

    I, for one, welcome our new reptilian messiahs and their saintly mother.

    However, it saddens me that male reproductive organs might no longer be needed. The future is a scary place.


    It's V all over again, I tells ya! V!!!!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,190 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    Aenaes wrote: »
    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-28886642

    "The arrival of three baby anacondas at West Midlands Safari Park is being heralded as a "miraculous virgin birth" by staff.

    Reptile handlers at the park believe they are the first snakes of their kind ever to be born in captivity, without any help from a male."

    I, for one, welcome our new reptilian messiahs and their saintly mother.

    However, it saddens me that male reproductive organs might no longer be needed. The future is a scary place.

    It's more of a miracle that the zoo staff aren't aware that it already happens in many species of snake!

    Asexual reproduction in boa constrictors.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,487 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato




  • Moderators Posts: 51,859 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    The Politics Of Every Major U.S. Religion, In One Chart


    ideologies1-638x600.jpg


    Source

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    The mysterious sliding rocks of Death Valley are no longer mysterious. Just very, very cool:

    http://www.iflscience.com/environment/mystery-death-valleys-sliding-rocks-solved



  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,510 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    The Irish Nazi's...guess what religion the party supported? ;)

    i.jpg

    http://www.broadsheet.ie/2014/09/05/fada-land/
    With their own ‘swaistica’ and final solution.

    Sibling of Daedalus writes:

    “Above is is the symbol of Ireland’s only indigenous fascist party, Ailtirí na hAiséirghe (Architects of the Resurrection), established by ‘disaffected accountant’ Gearoid O’Cuinneagain among Gaelic League members in the early 1940s.
    Among the stated aims of the movement were the criminalisation of English, discriminatory measures against Jews, and the conquest of Northern Ireland. The movement fizzled out following the end of the Second World War, but during its brief existence numbered among its members broadcasters and writers Brian Cleeve and Breandan O’hEithir…”

    Thankfully that died a death,


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,964 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    I'm sure their spirit lives on in Youth Defence, especially if you learn about Michael Quinn (surprisingly, no relation to David).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,487 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato




  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Cabaal wrote: »

    Only because the nazis lost the war. If the Battle of Britain had gone differently, if they had not had the spitfire, those idiots might have taken charge here. As some form of Vichy type puppet government.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Barclays bank to introduce a desktop biometric "finger vein scanner".
    Its a more reliable ID than scanning fingerprints apparently.
    http://eandt.theiet.org/news/2014/sep/finger-vein-barclays.cfm


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,487 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Every man is now thinking 'I wonder would that work with...'

    BTW the Spitfire got all the credit for the Battle of Britain, but the Hurricane was more numerous and accounted for 60% of German planes shot down by the RAF.

    Scrap the cap!



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Every man is now thinking 'I wonder would that work with...
    It will be available in three sizes. Small, medium, and magnificent.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,487 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Yum!

    _67016902_louis-gettingtoknowdad.jpg

    From an article on pinhole cameras.

    Scrap the cap!



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    Yum!

    _67016902_louis-gettingtoknowdad.jpg

    From an article on pinhole cameras.

    California cheeseburger, my favourite!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,690 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    recedite wrote: »
    Only because the nazis lost the war. If the Battle of Britain had gone differently, if they had not had the spitfire, those idiots might have taken charge here. As some form of Vichy type puppet government.
    Bit of a hisotorical "what if", I suppose, but I don't think that would ever have been very likely. They were a tiny group, mostly completely bonkers, and they wouldn't have been numerous enough to make even a small contribution to a Vichy-style regime. Plus, while they had the antisemitism and the insanity, the aggressive Catholicism would not have appealed to our new Nazi overlords.

    The IRA was a much more formidable force, and had a track record of somewhat effective co-operation with the Germans. I suspect that's where the Germans would have looked first for an Irish Quisling.

    But in truth the German options would have been limited no matter where they worked. Nearly everybody who was favourably disposed to the Nazis took that stance because they saw the Nazis as allies against Britain; their fundamental motivation was Irish nationalism. And, if they did take power under Nazi overlordship, their objective would have been to grab Northern Ireland. Which isn't something the Nazis would have wanted to happen at all.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    The IRA was a much more formidable force, and had a track record of somewhat effective co-operation with the Germans. I suspect that's where the Germans would have looked first for an Irish Quisling.
    But the IRA were a bit "lefty" they probably would have ended up operating as partisans against the nazis, similar to lefties in Yugoslavia and Greece.
    The political wing was marxist up until the 1980's, although you don't hear much about that any more from the bould Gerry :pac:
    Peregrinus wrote: »
    But in truth the German options would have been limited no matter where they worked. Nearly everybody who was favourably disposed to the Nazis took that stance because they saw the Nazis as allies against Britain; their fundamental motivation was Irish nationalism. And, if they did take power under Nazi overlordship, their objective would have been to grab Northern Ireland. Which isn't something the Nazis would have wanted to happen at all.
    Agreed. However the basic requirement would have been for somebody with fascist tendencies who would be willing to do what they were told, in return for some limited amount of power. I think these guys would have fitted the bill.

    As for NI, well it would have been in the interests of the Germans to pit local nationalists against each other, to keep them busy. Therefore unite Ireland, and separate off Scotland too, in order to divide and break up British power.
    They had a policy in Ukraine to arrest and detain ultra nationalist leaders in the early years of the war while they were still winning, at the same time recruiting rank and file nationalists into SS divisions to fight the Russians.
    When the tide turned and the Germans were retreating back to Germany, they released the nationalist leaders, hoping that they would organise resistance against the incoming Russians.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,690 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    recedite wrote: »
    But the IRA were a bit "lefty" they probably would have ended up operating as partisans against the nazis, similar to lefties in Yugoslavia and Greece.
    Nothing in their actual relations with the Nazis during the war leads us to think this. Even IRA figures who fought on the Republican side during the Spanish Civil War were prepared to co-operate with the Nazis.
    recedite wrote: »
    Agreed. However the basic requirement would have been for somebody with fascist tendencies who would be willing to do what they were told, in return for some limited amount of power. I think these guys would have fitted the bill.
    You left out "minimally competent, and not living in total cloud-cuckoo land". You wouldn't appoint A na hA to run your Quisling government unless you wanted it to collapse in chaos and ridicule.
    recedite wrote: »
    As for NI, well it would have been in the interests of the Germans to pit local nationalists against each other, to keep them busy. Therefore unite Ireland, and separate off Scotland too, in order to divide and break up British power.
    Basically, the Nazis quite admired the British. They were Aryans, after all, and quite successful ones. They would have hoped that once the corrupt cosmopolitan ruling class was replaced by thoughtful, intelligent men with a proper grasp of the principles of National Socialism and the destiny of the Aryan race, Britain would turn into a very useful ally which could keep its Empire, etc. The wouldn't want to undermine their own puppet government in London by presenting it as one which couldn't even hold Britain together.

    If anything, the Nazi tendency would have been in the other direction. I recall reading somewhere that one version of the outline plans for the occupation government of Britain called for the top level of the occoupation government to be based in London, with the next (regional) level distributed across six cities - one of which was Dublin.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    recedite wrote: »
    If the Battle of Britain had gone differently, if they had not had the spitfire, those idiots might have taken charge here. As some form of Vichy type puppet government.

    The Battle of Britain was a last minute despairing measure thrown together when Hitler finally realised that his invasion plan (Sealion) was a thing of bad fantasy (for example about half the Rhine river barges which were to be commandeered as troop transports would have been sunk on the first transit of the channel by the wakes of the destroyer escorts from the Kriegsmarine, assuming that the Royal Navy themselves didn't intervene, said lack of intervention to be brought about by wishful thinking), and in order to be seen to be doing something in retaliation to the far more effective bombing raids on German cities by Arthur Harris' Bomber Command.

    And the Battle of Britain was essentially unwinnable for the Germans as the UK had better early warning systems (radar and ENIGMA), better planes, more planes, and more personnel. The only advantage the Germans had was that they initially had better trained pilots. And by far the worst effect of the Battle of Britain was to strip the Luftwaffe of the planes and personnel it needed to be effective after the earliest stages of Barbarossa, as all the production was being funnelled west and a lot of the units in the East were being taken away.

    Hey, if you look at even the invasion of France in 1941 you'd realised that they gambled on a million-to-one shot and won (for example just at the right time the French army withdrew a crack armoured division from the section of the Ardennes the Germans were to break through and replace them with an infantry division made up of raw conscripts. This was not due to any misdirection on the Germans' part, just bad timing).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 891 ✭✭✭redfacedbear


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Basically, the Nazis quite admired the British. They were Aryans, after all, and quite successful ones....I recall reading somewhere that one version of the outline plans for the occupation government of Britain called for the top level of the occoupation government to be based in London, with the next (regional) level distributed across six
    cities - one of which was Dublin.

    I remember hearing that the Nazi plan was to obliterate the Irish - we had caused the Brits so much grief over the previous '800 years' that it was preferable to just get us out of the way.

    Can't for the life remember where I came across that, or how reliable it is.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,167 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    I remember hearing that the Nazi plan was to obliterate the Irish - we had caused the Brits so much grief over the previous '800 years' that it was preferable to just get us out of the way.

    Can't for the life remember where I came across that, or how reliable it is.

    I haven't seen it quoted either but you would have to be pretty naive to think that they would just think, ah shure, the Paddies are no harm, let them do what they want over there. I have seen statements/memos (can't find them now though) from them and us though stating we would have an agreed peace (or something similar aka we'd leave each other well enough alone) but again, if anyone hear believed that, more fool them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    The Germans would most certainly have taken control of Ireland in order to control the Atlantic with its shipping and aviation routes. The Nazis at the Wannsee Conference (where they planned the "final solution") had some kind of lists of Jews in the countries they planned to take over, which lists included the Jews of Ireland. I don't know whether these were names or just estimates of numbers. Nor do I know who compiled the lists, but in addition to the eirefascists there were actual Nazis in Dublin at the time, led by a German guy who worked in the National Museum.
    In the event of a takeover, most other Irish people could probably have carried on in their daily lives pretty much as normal though, like they did in Norway.

    Given the mentality of the times, it would have been easy for the Germans to recruit special battalions of nationalists in the south, who would be sent up to Belfast and Derry where they could "protect law abiding people" from loyalist paramilitary resistance fighters.

    Hitler famously signed a concordat (treaty) with the Holy See, so the catholic ethos of the place would not have been a problem for him. Catholicism certainly wasn't a problem for Mussolini in Italy, far from it. He gave them the Vatican territory as a sovereign state in return for their support.

    It wouldn't have taken a whole lot I reckon, to win the population over. Perhaps a few kind words from the Bishops about what a clever chap Mussolini was, and maybe some nice Italian soldiers to garrison the country, instead of Germans.
    Here's the Irish Army uniform of 1940 :)

    emergency1a


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,690 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    I agree, the Germans would have taken control of Ireland for strategic reasons. And we know, in fact, that they regarded doing so as a natural aspect of taking control of the UK, which in itself tell us something about their attitude to Irish nationalism.

    As for setting up a puppet government, I think their options were pretty limited.

    - A na hA, as already pointed out, was ideologically the closest thing to Naziism in Ireland, but it was very pietistic and Catholic which, yes, recedite, the Nazis did have a huge problem with. Hitler didn’t sign the 1933 concordat because he had no problem with Catholicism but rather because he did. He hoped the concordat (which had largely been negotiated before the Nazis came to power in 1933) would help to contain and quieten the church. That didn’t really work for him, and he knew that long before 1940.

    - But the real problem with A na hA was not their Catholicism, but the fact that there was only a handful of them - about twenty to twenty -five, I think - and they were nearly all as mad as a bush. Between the lot of them they couldn’t muster enough sane bodies to furnish something like Newbridge Town Commission, never mind a national puppet government.

    - The IRA, or at least significant elements within the IRA, did co-operate with the Nazis before and during the War. But they didn’t do so out of any sympathy with Naziism - if anything, their political instincts were on the other side. They had to swallow those instincts in order to co-operate with the Nazis, which they did largely on the basis that my enemy’s enemy is my friend, even if I don’t especially like him.

    - Which means, I think, that if it came to providing a puppet government, the price for IRA support/involvement would have been a puppet government of a united Ireland. Which, for the reasons I have already outlined, I don’t think the Nazis would have been willing to offer at all. I don’t think the suggestion of IRA gangs helping the Nazis against loyalist paramilitary resistance fighters is remotely plausible; the other way around strikes me as far more likely. The Nazis would have tried very hard to appeal to conservative/unionist/BUF sentiment in Britain, which was the most likely source for a Quisling government there. If they succeeded in that, Northern Unionism coming on board was highly likely.

    - Generally, the occupation governments that worked best from the Nazi point of view were actually the ones whose co-operation with the Nazis was somewhat reluctant - those who took the job on the basis that we are where we are, and we have to make the best of a bad job. Very often they were old-fashioned conservatives rather than new-fangled Nazis, or at least they sought to include those elements. Very often they did succeed in protecting their populace to some extent from the worst excesses of Naziism, at least for a time - think Denmark, Belgium, Vichy France. What the Nazis mainly wanted (in Western Europe at any rate) was military and strategic support, military materials, etc. In Ireland, as you point out, they would want the Atlantic ports and, if in this alternative history the US had entered the war - Ireland as a location for forward Luftwaffe bases. Measures against Ireland’s Jewish population wouldn’t actually have been a huge priority for them in 1940. On the other hand, I don’t flatter myself that a government which had reconciled itself to Nazi occupation would have died on the barricades to defend Irish Jews.

    In my guess, the most likely source for “talent” for a puppet government would actually have been the pragmatic elements in the existing political class. And they had pretty much defined themselves as pragmatic already, by accepting the treaty in 1922 on one side, and swallowing their pride and taking the oath in 1927 on the other. So, while some individuals would certainly have refused, I think on both sides the Nazis could have found established and recognised political figures who would conclude that the least worst thing for Ireland was for them to serve in a government which preserved as much freedom of maneouvre as possible, within the limits of allowing the Nazis access to the ports and, later, air bases that they wanted. The Nazis’ gesture to Irish nationalism would likely have been to allow Ireland’s remaining formal links to the Commonwealth to be cut in 1940, rather than in 1949 as actually happened. On the “national question”, their formal position would likely have been that, within the New European Order, this was a matter to be settled peacefully between the British and Irish puppet governments, while behind the scenes they would have backed the British puppet government to the hilt.


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