Court Summons for Careless or Dangerous Driving

ryanmj · 09-08-2011 12:12pm #1

Hi,

Today, I got pulled over by gardai, crossed from left turning lane across lane going straight (both had red lights) to left turning lane which had a green light. I did indicate. Got caught by Gardai. I didn't argue with them (even when they said I didn't indicate) as I didn't want to rile them more. Anyway, I accept I shouldn't have done etc. She said court summons will be on the way to me, I am just wondering if that is likely to be for dangerous driving or careless driving. I also only have provo licence though have booked for full test. Funnily enough, they still let me drive off without full driver. Anyway, i am only interested in what the likely offence is to be and any experience of such cases in Cork courts?

thanks

Hunter Mahan · 09-08-2011 12:27pm

If what you say is correct then you are not going to be summonsed for dangerous driving.
It will most likely be careless driving or even better still (for you) driving without due care and attention. They could also throw in one for driving unaccompanied.

First offence, coupled with a plea of guilty on first date, then the verdict should not be too harsh. A small fine most likely.

If you have a solicitor in court on the first date and there's more than one summons then maybe he might be able to negotiate something for a plea. You could also try that yourself I think...

jaffa20 · 09-08-2011 12:36pm

Wouldn't it just be a fine for dangerous driving? Sounds more like a summons for driving without a fully licenced passenger.

ryanmj · 09-08-2011 12:48pm

No, she said it was for dangerous driving - she actually didn't seem that bothered by the provisional thing. (especially as they just left me drive off) I just thought dangerous driving was a bit severe. She said I cut across 3 lanes of traffic but it was only the one going straight, as i was in one lane cut across the one going straight into the one going left - as i say i didn't argue or anything as I honestly thought it would just be a caution.

Mr. Manager · 09-08-2011 1:12pm

I got taken to court for reckless and dangerous driving about 2 years ago when I failed to yield to a painted on roundabout on the Tonlagee Road.

4 points and fine. Can't remember the fine but it was no more than €120 (I know this much as I have never paid more than €120 in a fine)

coylemj · 09-08-2011 1:25pm

Hunter Mahan wrote: »

It will most likely be careless driving or even better still (for you) driving without due care and attention.

They are one and the same thing, S.52 is driving without due care and attention, commonly known as careless driving.

The RTA 1961 ('The Principal Act') S.52 was replaced in 1968 ......

50.—The Principal Act is hereby amended by the substitution of the following section for section 52:

“Careless driving.

52. (1) A person shall not drive a vehicle in a public place without due care and attention.

(2) A person who contravenes subsection (1) of this section shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds or, at the discretion of the court, to imprisonment for any term not exceeding three months or to both such fine and such imprisonment.”

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1968/en/act/pub/0025/sec0050.html#sec50

coylemj · 09-08-2011 1:29pm

ryanmj wrote: »

No, she said it was for dangerous driving - she actually didn't seem that bothered by the provisional thing. (especially as they just left me drive off) I just thought dangerous driving was a bit severe. She said I cut across 3 lanes of traffic but it was only the one going straight, as i was in one lane cut across the one going straight into the one going left - as i say i didn't argue or anything as I honestly thought it would just be a caution.

If you didn't almost crash into anything or anyone it's highly unlikely that you will be convicted (or even charged with) dangerous driving.

Even if you are charged with Dangerous Driving, you can plead guilty on the day (or the judge can reduce the charge) to careless driving - or you can slug it out with the Garda, it's your word against hers.

Either way, a solicitor would be good idea if you are charged with dangerous (S.53) or careless (S.52) driving.

matt70iu · 09-08-2011 1:32pm

coylemj wrote: »

Hunter Mahan wrote: »

It will most likely be careless driving or even better still (for you) driving without due care and attention.

They are one and the same thing, S.52 is driving without due care and attention, commonly known as careless driving.

The RTA 1961 ('The Principal Act') S.52 was replaced in 1968 ......

50.—The Principal Act is hereby amended by the substitution of the following section for section 52:

“Careless driving.

52. (1) A person shall not drive a vehicle in a public place without due care and attention.

(2) A person who contravenes subsection (1) of this section shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds or, at the discretion of the court, to imprisonment for any term not exceeding three months or to both such fine and such imprisonment.”

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1968/en/act/pub/0025/sec0050.html#sec50

TBH OP, I wouldn't worry too much. From what you describe, it's a very minor traffic offence. Bit silly taking you to court over it. A fine and points would have done the job.

You won't get done for dangerous driving, without due care and attention with penalty points I'd expect.

Best of luck!

ryanmj · 09-08-2011 1:35pm

oh hopefully, starting to freak out that a solicitor has been recommended. I had planned on just pleading guilty apologising - kind of hoping I will have full licence by then so that I can say I took more lessons past my test in meantime and therefore learned from my mistake. I still think dangerous driving is a bit severe i guess I will have to wait for summons to come out...

Beta Ray Bill · 09-08-2011 2:05pm

matt70iu wrote: »

TBH OP, I wouldn't worry too much. From what you describe, it's a very minor traffic offence. Bit silly taking you to court over it. A fine and points would have done the job.

You won't get done for dangerous driving, without due care and attention with penalty points I'd expect.

Best of luck!

And with any luck the Judge will give the Garda a talking to for wasting court time on such a minor offense.

The stupidity of a court summons for not indicating is beyond belief.

Was there much traffic around you at the time OP?
Did you obstruct anyone during your lane switch?

ryanmj · 09-08-2011 2:50pm

no didn't cut of anyone. There was only 3 other cars on the road. two in the lane going straight who had a red light, there was the car (which turned out to be the gardai) way back in the left lane. There was no other traffic. They were going on like I could have killed every single person within a 50 mile radius all this signing and shocked expressions.
Hopefully Judge will be ok. I hope the summons comes out soon and not hanging around for months waiting

corktina · 09-08-2011 3:31pm

ryanmj wrote: »

oh hopefully, starting to freak out that a solicitor has been recommended. I had planned on just pleading guilty apologising - kind of hoping I will have full licence by then so that I can say I took more lessons past my test in meantime and therefore learned from my mistake. I still think dangerous driving is a bit severe i guess I will have to wait for summons to come out...

solicitor might be a good idea, especially if its a dangerous driving charge.

your attitude to going to court is bang on.

"And with any luck the Judge will give the Garda a talking to for wasting court time on such a minor offense" NOT A HOPE, the judge will accept whatever the gard says in court

Sids Not · 09-08-2011 9:31pm

OK...I'll ask the question...WTF were you at....it seems to me that you were trying to avoid stopping at the light.....did you perhaps see the Garda car and being on your own as a learner tried to "escape"...I cant see why you did what you say for no reason, other than the lights were red...

ryanmj · 09-08-2011 10:03pm

I crossed from left turning lane across lane going straight to turn right. Not to avoid anyone or escape anyone purely because i needed to be in the right turning lane. I made a mistake as to how to get where i was going. There was loads of space in front of cars going straight. It is nothing to do with the red light it is do with not using my indicator and crossing on to a lane which was moving even if there was no traffic. I see in my original post i said left turning twice which may have left to confusion.

Hunter Mahan · 09-08-2011 10:30pm

coylemj wrote: »

They are one and the same thing, S.52 is driving without due care and attention, commonly known as careless driving.

The RTA 1961 ('The Principal Act') S.52 was replaced in 1968 ......

50.—The Principal Act is hereby amended by the substitution of the following section for section 52:

“Careless driving.

52. (1) A person shall not drive a vehicle in a public place without due care and attention.

(2) A person who contravenes subsection (1) of this section shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds or, at the discretion of the court, to imprisonment for any term not exceeding three months or to both such fine and such imprisonment.”

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1968/en/act/pub/0025/sec0050.html#sec50

Well I know there are 2 different summons for careless and due care, and I know that due care is viewed a lot differently by court judges. Unless of course something has changed in the last year?

coylemj · 09-08-2011 11:17pm

Hunter Mahan wrote: »

Well I know there are 2 different summons for careless and due care, and I know that due care is viewed a lot differently by court judges. Unless of course something has changed in the last year?

No, 'Careless Driving' is defined as 'Driving without due care and attention'. To repeat what I said already, they are one and the same thing, I quoted the definition straight from the 1968 Act earlier.

Are you sure you're not confusing this offence with S.51A - Driving without reasonable consideration for other users? This was created by S.49 of the 1968 Act and inserted as S.51A of the 1961 Act.....

Driving without reasonable consideration.

49.—The Principal Act is hereby amended by the insertion of the following section after section 51:

51A. (1) A person shall not drive a vehicle in a public place without reasonable consideration for other persons using the place.

(2) A person who contravenes subsection (1) of this section shall be guilty of an offence.”

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1968/en/act/pub/0025/sec0049.html#sec49

JerCotter7 · 10-08-2011 12:59am

Am I mistaken in thinking that any offence that carries penalty points, you must be given a fixed charge notice first?

Donegal3 · 10-08-2011 1:17am

JerCotter7 wrote: »

Am I mistaken in thinking that any offence that carries penalty points, you must be given a fixed charge notice first?

Yes, some offences are a summons and penalty points and fine in court.

Here is a link according to RTA - http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Licensed%20Drivers/Penalty%20Points%20Chart.pdf

gaza4 · 10-08-2011 2:06am

if its a dangerous driving charge make sure to get a solicitor and get it bumped down to careless, dangerous driving can* carry a ban.

*i say can because my solicitor told me a ban was mandatory for dangerous, however i know of cases where that was not the case...

corktina · 10-08-2011 10:44am

good advice. My young feller did that and went away with 5 points.

Beta Ray Bill · 10-08-2011 10:49am

corktina wrote: »

"And with any luck the Judge will give the Garda a talking to for wasting court time on such a minor offense" NOT A HOPE, the judge will accept whatever the gard says in court

Ridiculous ain't it?

OP I hope all goes well for you in court.
As for a solicitor, you need to weigh up the cost of having one with you in court and you may get off with a warning -vs- the fine you may get.

Regards
G.

coylemj · 10-08-2011 12:23pm

grahambo wrote: »

As for a solicitor, you need to weigh up the cost of having one with you in court and you may get off with a warning -vs- the fine you may get.

If the OP gets a summons for dangerous or careless driving then going to court without a solicitor would be lunacy. From the big deal the Garda is making of her manoeuvre I'd say she will need professional representation or she could get a big fine and a few points.

Oh_Noes · 10-08-2011 12:31pm

coylemj wrote: »

If the OP gets a summons for dangerous or careless driving then going to court without a solicitor would be lunacy. From the big deal the Garda is making of her manoeuvre I'd say she will need professional representation or she could get a big fine and a few points.

The OP is hardly going to get points when he/she doesn't having a license for them to go on.

10-08-2011 12:32pm

Am I the only one who sees little or nothing wrong with what the OP did. Got into the wrong lane for what ever reason and safely crossed over to the correct one when he/she had a chance. Sure that's just a normal manoeuvre.

I would have had plenty to say to a guard who was trying do me for such a non offence.

Sids Not · 10-08-2011 12:54pm

Kian Late Lasso wrote: »

Am I the only one who sees little or nothing wrong with what the OP did. Got into the wrong lane for what ever reason and safely crossed over to the correct one when he/she had a chance. Sure that's just a normal manoeuvre.

I would have had plenty to say to a guard who was trying do me for such a non offence.

Clearly the Garda who pulled him over didnt think it was a safe manoeuvre.....we wernt there so we only have the op's word on what he did...;)

ryanmj · 10-08-2011 1:11pm

I know I did it wrong I am not arguing that - all I am saying it that she said it summons for dangerous driving and I think that's very excessive. You can't say anything to gardai who nearly always seem to take disagreement as a personal attack. i remain hopeful that in hindsight she will realise it's madness to waste court time on this and send out a fine / points instead.

Court Summons for Careless or Dangerous Driving

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