Councillors to lose planning decision powers

Scofflaw · 15-10-2012 4:38pm #1

Surprised this hasn't already been noted here. County councillors are to lose the power to overturn planning decisions, following the findings of the Mahon Tribunal:

THE POWER of councillors to overturn the decisions of planning officials will be abolished in a massive overhaul of local government to be announced tomorrow.

The biggest reform of local government since the current system was instituted in 1898 is due to be unveiled by the Minister for the Environment, Phil Hogan.

The decision to curtail the planning powers of local councillors has been taken in the light of evidence given to the Mahon tribunal regarding corruption in the planning process.

As part of the reform package, section 140 of the Local Government Act will be abolished so that councillors will no longer be allowed to direct officials in respect of planning functions.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/1015/1224325260448.html

I admit I'm very pleased - I remember saying a couple of years ago that removing this power from councillors was absolutely necessary to stop the corruption endemic in planning, but I didn't see any likelihood that it would really happen.

In some senses, of course, it's a loss of "local democratic control", but given that the system seemed to revolve around money and favours, I think that's an almost entirely theoretical point.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Iwannahurl · 15-10-2012 4:46pm

Perhaps now we'll have a bit more emphasis on planning and a bit less on permission.

Anything that reduces or eliminates the clientilism and populism which infects this state is a good thing in my opinion.

Kinski · 15-10-2012 8:48pm

Very welcome news, and hopefully a sign that Mahon really can spur genuine reform.

Mr.Micro · 15-10-2012 8:58pm

Yes indeed it is long overdue, but coming from Mr.Hogan, we will have to wait and see if it actually happens. The same man as many know by now had several ongoing investigations into County Councils and planning dropped.

Speaking at the MacGill summer school in Glenties last July, the Minister said that he had been mandated by a “reforming Government to drag the system of local government into the 21st century” so that it delivered more to the community and put people first.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...325260448.html

sarkozy · 15-10-2012 10:24pm

So now the corruption gets monopolised at central level? Strike one for democracy. :rolleyes:

Iwannahurl · 15-10-2012 10:38pm

It's a development that will have to be scrutinised closely, that's for sure.

Removing or greatly reducing the power of Councillors is an improvement, IMO, as they are far more susceptible to gombeenism.

"Planners" may have made mistakes, and I'm far from being an apologist for them, but afaik in many cases they stood up to Councillors and were just over-ruled. For example, once land was rezoned by Councillors, there was nothing to stand in the way of inappropriate or unsustainable development.

imme · 15-10-2012 10:41pm

A regressive step imo.
Section 4 motions which councillors use to overturn planners decisions are used infrequently and are a legitimate political input into the planning process.

imme · 15-10-2012 10:43pm

sarkozy wrote: »

So now the corruption gets monopolised at central level? Strike one for democracy. :rolleyes:

?

If you have evidence of corruption go to the Gardai

markpb · 15-10-2012 10:47pm

imme wrote: »

A regressive step imo.
Section 4 motions which councillors use to overturn planners decisions are used infrequently and are a legitimate political input into the planning process.

I'm not entirely familiar with the planning process but I thought that the councillors had their input during the zoning phase, not the planning permission phase?

Slydice · 15-10-2012 10:58pm

imme wrote: »

?

If you have evidence of corruption go to the Gardai

I thought this was a serious forum? What's with all the jokers

Definitely the only question now is... which bunch of politicians get to be the corrupts ones next. :rolleyes:

Dirk Gently · 15-10-2012 11:46pm

A damning admission that local politics is too corrupt to trust. We already have a situation where the unelected city manager makes most of the decisions, I'm not sure what, if anything is left for councillors to actually do. I can't help feel it's a stop gap solution though in the absence of any accountability mechanisms. Have we just given up on democracy? Perhaps the role of the councillor is now equivalent to an opposition agitator?

Manach · 15-10-2012 11:52pm

So the 4.6bn p.a. that is going to local government, perhaps also might be better served at a centralised locus point instead of the duplication of effort that is currently in place.

Molloys Clondalkin · 16-10-2012 12:37am

I do think this is a step in the wrong directon as at least with councillors there was a way you could approach them to show that your development while currently being deemed unauthorised was mush less intrusive then whet the alternative is.

I recently went through this where a antenna that was small enough will now have tobe altered and put up much much higher. something Im sure the neighbours will be concerned about. While the planning dept are robots about it and to be honost quite rude in thier coresspondance and failing to inform me of any options I may have for recourse. A counciller is someone you can invite to see the alternativeand show sometimes the legislation isnt always in everyones interest.

Pride Fighter · 16-10-2012 3:37am

Great news. Councils throughout the country have had bad planning and shady rezonings. All of them FF and FG dominated. Building houses on flood plains is not a smart move. Building housing estates miles away from any facilities is not smart. Also the dotting of bungalows along rural Irish roads is very dangerous and should never have been allowed happen.

Maybe if we could do away with FG and FF we could give the powers back to the councils, but I dont think it is feasible.

hyperborean · 16-10-2012 10:01am

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Great news. Councils throughout the country have had bad planning and shady rezonings. All of them FF and FG dominated. Building houses on flood plains is not a smart move. Building housing estates miles away from any facilities is not smart. Also the dotting of bungalows along rural Irish roads is very dangerous and should never have been allowed happen. .

Good point

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Maybe if we could do away with FG and FF we could give the powers back to the councils, but I dont think it is feasible.

We would have to do away with over 60% of the population (currently and up to 75% not so long ago) who support these politcal beasts, nearly went godwin on this one.

The reality is that people will vote one or the other of these parties into government every time, the majority of this country is getting what it deserves, bad decisions on voting gets bad government.

PS, there is no decent opposition either,

PS2, the population of this country live the lifestyle only the top 10%(plucked this from the air but I bet my new shiney 60inch its close) in the world are accostomed to, every one else is below us.....

nuac · 16-10-2012 10:49am

imme wrote: »

A regressive step imo.
Section 4 motions which councillors use to overturn planners decisions are used infrequently and are a legitimate political input into the planning process.

I disagree. These motions, currently under S 140 of LGA 2001 directing the Manager to e.g. grant a certain permission were often proposed for reasons having nothing to do with planning and contrary to the advice of the council planners.

One off rural housing was often involved. they were more common in some counties than in others.

Due to criticisms of the procedure in the HIgh COurt, they had become less frequent.

Councillors still have the most important right to make the Development Plan

Mr.Micro · 16-10-2012 12:38pm

imme wrote: »

A regressive step imo.
Section 4 motions which councillors use to overturn planners decisions are used infrequently and are a legitimate political input into the planning process.

Well if this County was/is anything to go by, it was the councillors who ran the planning department. They even railroaded developments through without any consequence for proper planning. The less that councillors have to do with any planning the better for society and our environment.

BluntGuy · 16-10-2012 1:49pm

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1016/phil-hogan-local-government-cabinet-politics.html

The proposals, called 'Putting People First', include the abolition off all 80 town councils, a 40% reduction in the number of councillors, and a cut in the number of regional authorities from ten to three.

Local authority services are to be funded through the local property tax, with strengthened audit committees, as well as a National Oversight and Audit Commission to scrutinise local government performance and efficiency.

Local authority managers are to be replaced by chief executives, who will be responsible to the elected members in the same way as the chief executive of a company is to a board of directors.

Having a quick read through the document.

Is a 40% reduction in councillor numbers too ambitious to get through?

hyperborean · 16-10-2012 2:18pm

BluntGuy wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1016/phil-hogan-local-government-cabinet-politics.html

Having a quick read through the document.

Is a 40% reduction in councillor numbers too ambitious to get through?

Negotiating tactic I would guess, probably end up with 10-15% reduction, although it will take a couple of years for this to settle into a proper working design, there are a lot of good councillors who will inevitely loose out and this is a slight negative.

The twon councils however are useless and should be binned today.

Boulevardier · 16-10-2012 3:18pm

If there really is an end to councillor's powers to rezone land, then Big Phil Hogan is now my friend for life.

It means the end of 90% of planing corruption and bad planning decisions in this country.

Bullseye1 · 16-10-2012 5:23pm

The number of section 140 decisions were minimal. I speak from experience representing clients it was impossible to get councillors to overrule planners if decisions were refused on technical grounds (and rightly so) for example dangerous entrances leading to traffic hazard.

I see this as a further deterioration of local representation. People want use to move away from petrol pump politics with regards to our nationally elected representatives, TDs, but this step is taking away peoples democratic rights to see their local towns and counties to develop how they want. It gives too much power to permanent employees and County Managers without proper checks and balances. If County Managers were elected then it would be different.

The real changes required in this country are changes required in how the Dail and Seanad are run.

Scofflaw · 16-10-2012 6:11pm

Bullseye1 wrote: »

The number of section 140 decisions were minimal. I speak from experience representing clients it was impossible to get councillors to overrule planners if decisions were refused on technical grounds (and rightly so) for example dangerous entrances leading to traffic hazard.

I see this as a further deterioration of local representation. People want use to move away from petrol pump politics with regards to our nationally elected representatives, TDs, but this step is taking away peoples democratic rights to see their local towns and counties to develop how they want. It gives too much power to permanent employees and County Managers without proper checks and balances. If County Managers were elected then it would be different.

The real changes required in this country are changes required in how the Dail and Seanad are run.

I agree with your point about what is lost here, but it falls under the "this is why we can't have nice things" category of things that are desirable, but which have been brought into disrepute as a result of constant and notorious abuse.

As has been pointed out, this planning reform is on foot of the evidence in a couple of tribunals - and multiple other separate cases - that the planning process is corrupt and a source of corruption in the body politic.

Against that, the ability for individuals to seek to have planning decisions overturned in their favour by non-expert panels of local representatives rather pales in value.

Local people should aim to have their democratic input into the county development plan, and there should be no capacity for individuals to seek to have that democratically mandated plan set aside in their favour.

cordially,
Scofflaw

charlemont · 16-10-2012 7:51pm

I'v spent a lot of time reading the report today..http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1016/phil-hogan-local-government-cabinet-politics.html

Link's at top and bottom of report..

Its a very good report, I'll give it the thumbs up, There's a lot of reasoning in it regarding the changes and I think it's very positive for the country.

I'd recommend any of ye here to give it a good read...

Never thought I'd say it but fair play to Big Phil.

Councillors to lose planning decision powers

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