Is support for Palestine indivisible from support for Sinn Féin/IRA?

Smashius_Clay · 14-10-2012 10:17pm #1

Anyone can see that there is huge overlap between Sinn Féin/IRA and the support of Palestinian rights.

As well as murals like this one, in Belfast...
plo.ira.jpg

... there are suspicions that members of the PLO were trained by members of the IRA. In 2010, Gerry Adams invited Fadu Abu Sidu, Fatah’s Foreign Relations Commission Representative in the UK, to Sinn Féin's 2010 Ard Fheis.

While few could argue against the right of the Palestinian people to a state of their own, I do find the IRA's three-decade campaign to destroy the institutions of Northern Ireland and subsume Northern Ireland into an all-island 32 country republic considerably less noble.

We all know most people in Northern Ireland were completely opposed to the IRA's wishes, and so to were most in the Republic of Ireland. In 1987, the first year Sinn Féin decided to recognise the Dublin parliament, and cease referring to it as an "illegitimate, partitionist" institutition, Sinn Féin won a pathetic 1.7% of the vote, and not a single seat.

Most people I have encountered who purport to be Palestinian supporters are also Sinn Féin supporters, who will tell you the IRA's campaign was justified.

Is there anyone out there who supports, for example, the Ireland-Palestine Solidarity Campaign, but is willing to say they think the IRA's violent campaign was not justified?

goose2005 · 14-10-2012 10:20pm

Well, firstly the mural is attributed to the Irish Republican Youth Movement, which is Republic Sinn Fein, not vanilla Sinn Fein.

Nodin · 14-10-2012 10:27pm

Smashius_Clay wrote: »

..........
Is there anyone out there who supports, for example, the Ireland-Palestine Solidarity Campaign, but is willing to say they think the IRA's violent campaign was not justified?

"out there" as in wider society? Our current president is a long standing supporter of the Palestinian cause, as is David Norris. They'd hardly be IRA supporters.

dlofnep · 14-10-2012 10:31pm

So basically - you're just creating a thread to engage in a bit of old Shinner bashing, disguising it as a question that you already know the answer to. How cunning.

To answer your question: No - One does not have to be supportive of the PIRA's actions, to be a supporter of the Palestinian people and their future state. I think you'll find the majority of people around the world are sympathetic to the Palestinian cause. Only a handful of countries have sizeable populations that demonstrate vitriol towards the Palestinians.

Question answered in full.

Smashius_Clay · 14-10-2012 10:39pm

dlofnep wrote: »

So basically - you're just creating a thread to engage in a bit of old Shinner bashing, disguising it as a question that you already know the answer to. How cunning.

To answer your question: No - One does not have to be supportive of the PIRA's actions, to be a supporter of the Palestinian people and their future state. I think you'll find the majority of people around the world are sympathetic to the Palestinian cause. Only a handful of countries have sizeable populations that demonstrate vitriol towards the Palestinians.

Question answered in full.

Calm down, mate. The reason I asked is that I know people - not very well, admittedly - who attend fundraisers for the likes of the Ireland-Palestine Solidarity Movement. While the cause of the Palestinian people seems noble in theory to me, if it must be accompanied by support for the IRA, then it's not something I'd want to through my lot in with. That's why I wondered if there were people on boards.ie who were willing to admit they support the Ireland-Palestine Solidarity Campaign, but who do not think the IRA's campaign was justified.

And while I admire your confidence in stating "Question answered in full", I wasn't just looking for your feedback.

Cheers.

johnnyskeleton · 14-10-2012 10:42pm

Trocaire have a current campaign for boycotts of imports from Israeli settlements in the west bank. Hardly ira supporters.

Nodin · 14-10-2012 10:45pm

Smashius_Clay wrote: »

Calm down, mate. The reason I asked is that I know people - not very well, admittedly - who attend fundraisers for the likes of the Ireland-Palestine Solidarity Movement. While the cause of the Palestinian people seems noble in theory to me, if it must be accompanied by support for the IRA, then it's not something I'd want to through my lot in with. That's why I wondered if there were people on boards.ie who were willing to admit they support the Ireland-Palestine Solidarity Campaign, but who do not think the IRA's campaign was justified.

And while I admire your confidence in stating "Question answered in full", I wasn't just looking for your feedback.

Cheers.

Seeing as Osama Bin Laden was a supporter of Arsenal FC, do you presume that all supporters of Arsenal FC are in fact militant Jihadists?

p1akuw47h5r3it · 14-10-2012 10:50pm

Just because you support the right of Palestine to claim back the land that is legally theirs and to be recognized as an independent state doesn't mean you support the people who go around bombing Israel or murdering. It also doesn't mean you support the IRA.

Maybe I'm just picking your OP up wrong, but why do you believe that supporters of Palestine and it's rights support the IRA?

Smashius_Clay · 14-10-2012 10:58pm

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Trocaire have a current campaign for boycotts of imports from Israeli settlements in the west bank. Hardly ira supporters.

I wouldn't have thought they were, but again, I've never read a statement released by Trócaire on the IRA. I do know Trócaire styles itself as the "official overseas development agency of the Catholic Church in Ireland".

This is the same Catholic Church that produced Father Patrick Fell (convicted of being a commander of an IRA active service unit), Father James Chesney (who directed the Claudy bombing, killing 9 people) and Father Patrick Moloney (who sheltered IRA exiles and was arrested for gun-running).

I'm looking for a person, or organisation, who openly condemns the IRA and its campaign, but is a supporter of Palestinian rights. They seem hard to come by...

p1akuw47h5r3it · 14-10-2012 11:02pm

Smashius_Clay wrote: »

I wouldn't have thought they were, but again, I've never read a statement released by Trócaire on the IRA. I do know Trócaire styles itself as the "official overseas development agency of the Catholic Church in Ireland".

This is the same Catholic Church that produced Father Patrick Fell (convicted of being a commander of an IRA active service unit), Father James Chesney (who directed the Claudy bombing, killing 9 people) and Father Patrick Moloney (who sheltered IRA exiles and was arrested for gun-running).

I'm looking for a person, or organisation, who openly condemns the IRA and its campaign, but is a supporter of Palestinian rights. They seem hard to come by...

Your clutching at straws here...

Smashius_Clay · 14-10-2012 11:06pm

DanDan6592 wrote: »

Your clutching at straws here...

Eh? I'm not trying to prove a point, I'm asking a question.

If you don't have anything to contribute, I'd prefer you didn't clog up the thread.

p1akuw47h5r3it · 14-10-2012 11:08pm

Smashius_Clay wrote: »

Eh? I'm not trying to prove a point, I'm asking a question.

If you don't have anything to contribute, I'd prefer you didn't clog up the thread.

Your question was Answered. Look at Nodin's post when he said David Norris and our current President.

johnnyskeleton · 15-10-2012 12:00am

Smashius_Clay wrote: »

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Trocaire have a current campaign for boycotts of imports from Israeli settlements in the west bank. Hardly ira supporters.

I wouldn't have thought they were, but again, I've never read a statement released by Trócaire on the IRA. I do know Trócaire styles itself as the "official overseas development agency of the Catholic Church in Ireland".

This is the same Catholic Church that produced Father Patrick Fell (convicted of being a commander of an IRA active service unit), Father James Chesney (who directed the Claudy bombing, killing 9 people) and Father Patrick Moloney (who sheltered IRA exiles and was arrested for gun-running).

I'm looking for a person, or organisation, who openly condemns the IRA and its campaign, but is a supporter of Palestinian rights. They seem hard to come by...

The united states of America, the European union, the united nations all support a two state solution in the middle east and condem the actions of the ira. Put simply, the illegal organisations (as a non-controversial term for terrorists/freedom fighters) in Ireland and in Palestine support each other. Most democratic people condemn the provisional ira and support democratic rights movements for palistinians.

Nodin · 15-10-2012 12:08am

Smashius_Clay wrote: »

............

I'm looking for a person, or organisation, who openly condemns the IRA and its campaign, but is a supporter of Palestinian rights. They seem hard to come by...

I've pointed out two already. Tony Gregory was another. Trevor Sargent.....

Einhard · 15-10-2012 12:13am

I'm a supporter of rights for all humans, be they Palestinian, Israeli, Chinese, or Irish. OP, you appear to believe that supporting human rights is a bad thing?

Fratton Fred · 15-10-2012 11:48am

Nodin wrote: »

Seeing as Osama Bin Laden was a supporter of Arsenal FC, do you presume that all supporters of Arsenal FC are in fact militant Jihadists?

I've often suspected that actually.;)

Er, OP, the British Governments position is

http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=000577

"We are committed to reviving final status negotiations as soon as realistically possible. The path towards this is through the Quartet (US, UN, EU, Russia) Roadmap. The Roadmap sets out the steps the Palestinian Authority and Israel need to take, under the auspices of the Quartet, to achieve a negotiated settlement. Both sides have accepted the Roadmap and have given public commitments to implement it. The Government firmly believes that the Roadmap is the best route to achieve peace in the Middle East.

There is a clear international consensus on what a negotiated settlement might look like. The key elements will include an end to occupation, the exchange of 'land for peace' leading to a viable state of Palestine alongside the State of Israel, both secure and respected within recognised borders, as set out in UN Security Council Resolutions 242, 338 and 1397, 1435 and 1515. It should also build on Crown Prince Abdullah's initiative, adopted by the Arab League in Beirut on 28 March 2002, which offers full normalisation of relations between the Arab States and Israel, in the context of a final settlement.

I doubt they are all that pro SF/IRA somehow

czx · 15-10-2012 12:12pm

Einhard wrote: »

I'm a supporter of rights for all humans, be they Palestinian, Israeli, Chinese, or Irish. OP, you appear to believe that supporting human rights is a bad thing?

Maybe the armed resistance part. Bombings etc..

Terrontress · 15-10-2012 1:13pm

It's interesting that in NI you'll often see Israeli flags flying in Loyalist areas alongside the Union Jack and red hand of Ulster. Presumably this is simply because Republicans are often flying Palestinian flags amongst theirs. Loyalism also seems to be closely aligned with the anti-Semitic Combat18 and National Front which is at odds with flying the star of David.

I don't expect anyone from either side who flies a flag off a lamppost or paints kerbstones like a cat marking its territory with urine to have much intelligence but it's quite ironic.

Eggy Baby! · 15-10-2012 5:55pm

While few could argue against the right of the Palestinian people to a state of their own, I do find the IRA's three-decade campaign to destroy the institutions of Northern Ireland and subsume Northern Ireland into an all-island 32 country republic considerably less noble.

There are people who through violence and terror seek to create an independent Palestine, just as sure as there are people who through peace and diplomacy seek to unify Ireland.

The situation is much more nuanced than "innocent Palestinians" and "terrorist Republicans". You stated earlier that a spokesman for Fatah was invited to the Sinn Fein Ard Fheis. Now, whilst Fatah do have an active political wing, I refer you to the Al-Aqsa brigades, who can hardly be described as diplomatic.

And while I do support Palestine's cause, I am not myopic and understand that there are people trying to derail it for their own agendas, just like there was/is in the north.

The united states of America...support(s) a two state solution in the middle east

Quick aside: would you be able to get a source for that?

hyperborean · 15-10-2012 7:59pm

Funnily enough the one person I know to be "republican" as opposed to the celtic jersey wearing morons is more of a zionist apologist than anyone on this lovely forum.

Mannix1888 · 15-10-2012 8:09pm

I would have thought that Sinn Fein/IRA was a phrase that must be outdated at this stage? When I hear or see that phrase now it reminds me of Conor Cruise O'Brien.

As far as I know there has never been any direct connection between PIRA when they were active and the PLO, though there was connections with ETA and FARC.

Nodin · 15-10-2012 11:08pm

It's irrelevant as to whether there was or was not, as the question was as to whether the two were indivisible. Clearly they are not one and the same.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 15-10-2012 11:27pm

First off who are Sinn Fein/IRA?.

I'm a SF supporter/voter, I'm also pro-Israeli.

Having said that a lot of times I feel I'm in a minority of one among SF supporters.

Nodin · 15-10-2012 11:35pm

There are many shades of "pro-Israel". Painting in broad strokes here, because theres a range of positions -> If you support a two-state solution, believe the settlements should be removed, and would like to see the two state solution, you wouldn't be on your own. If you support the settlements though, you're on yer todd, tbh.

Smashius_Clay · 16-10-2012 12:01am

Alexander Harsh Wine wrote: »

First off who are Sinn Fein/IRA?.

Don't you love it when people feign ignorance?

Sinn Féin/IRA is synonym for the 'Provisional' Republican movement. When I refer to support for Sinn Féin/IRA, I am referring to those who argue the campaign carried out by Sinn Féin's military wing was justified.

You remember Sinn Féin's military wing, don't you?

In case you don't, here were some members

* Gerry Kelly (Sinn Féin MLA for North Belfast)
* Paul Butler (former Sinn Féin MLA for Lagan Valley)
* Pat Doherty (Sinn Féin MLA for West Tyrone)
* Martina Anderson (former Sinn Féin MLA for Foyle)
* Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin Minister for Culture, Arts and Leisure)
* Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin Deputy First Minster)
* Gerry Adams (Sinn Féin leader)
* Martin Ferris (Sinn Féin TD for Kerry North-West Limerick)

dlofnep · 16-10-2012 12:17am

Smashius_Clay wrote: »

Don't you love it when people feign ignorance?

Sinn Féin/IRA is synonym for the 'Provisional' Republican movement. When I refer to support for Sinn Féin/IRA, I am referring to those who argue the campaign carried out by Sinn Féin's military wing was justified.

You remember Sinn Féin's military wing, don't you?

In case you don't, here were some members

* Gerry Kelly (Sinn Féin MLA for North Belfast)
* Paul Butler (former Sinn Féin MLA for Lagan Valley)
* Pat Doherty (Sinn Féin MLA for West Tyrone)
* Martina Anderson (former Sinn Féin MLA for Foyle)
* Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin Minister for Culture, Arts and Leisure)
* Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin Deputy First Minster)
* Gerry Adams (Sinn Féin leader)
* Martin Ferris (Sinn Féin TD for Kerry North-West Limerick)

So basically, I was correct. This thread isn't about Palestine at all - it's an attempt to have a go at Sinn Féin. At least be honest about it.

Scofflaw · 16-10-2012 12:26am

OP, don't do this again.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Is support for Palestine indivisible from support for Sinn Féin/IRA?

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