What's the Alternative?

Pamela13 · 02-06-2012 3:56am #1

Seriously, what is the alternative?

We voted FF/Greens out? We got FG/Labor in -- there isn't enough in SF/Left Alliance to form a government (if that is your inclination)....What's next?

We are restricted by FF's agreement to bail out the banks, e.g. Anglo-Irish, etc, so what next?

In an ideal world, we don't pay for the bankers -- what about the real world?

Just curious

stefanovich · 02-06-2012 10:04am

Pamela13 wrote: »

Seriously, what is the alternative?

We voted FF/Greens out? We got FG/Labor in -- there isn't enough in SF/Left Alliance to form a government (if that is your inclination)....What's next?

We are restricted by FF's agreement to bail out the banks, e.g. Anglo-Irish, etc, so what next?

In an ideal world, we don't pay for the bankers -- what about the real world?

Just curious

This is unlikely to happen but I am not discounting the possibility that SF/ULA could eventually get into power.

If that happened it would really shake up politics in Ireland which I think is what we need.

My hope is that after one term with Gerry Adams as Taoiseach and the probable rise in government spending and taxation there would be a sharp swing back to the right with some new party filling the vacuum.

RMD · 02-06-2012 10:53am

I don't see a coalition of SF / ULA ever getting into power. The vast majority of the middle class will not vote for them. They're populist parties preaching what people want to hear. What people want to hear generally doesn't work in the real world and most people realise this.

Look at labour, they used to be a populist party. Now that they're in power they've had to backtrack on many of their pre-election policies.

stefanovich · 02-06-2012 11:12am

RMD wrote: »

I don't see a coalition of SF / ULA ever getting into power. The vast majority of the middle class will not vote for them. They're populist parties preaching what people want to hear. What people want to hear generally doesn't work in the real world and most people realise this.

Look at labour, they used to be a populist party. Now that they're in power they've had to backtrack on many of their pre-election policies.

So Labour is one example of populist party getting into power.

RichardAnd · 02-06-2012 1:02pm

We could debate the differences between parties for many hours but to me, it seems that elections here can be summed up by a quote from the late Bill Hicks.

"I think the puppet on the right shares my beliefs."
"I think the puppet on the left is more to my liking."
"Hey, wait a minute, there's one guy holding out both puppets!"

Kinski · 02-06-2012 1:26pm

The ULA are basically revolutionary socialists; I wouldn't expect them to ever contemplate becoming a junior partner in a coalition govt, even one led by SF. They're dyed-in-the-wool reds; IMO nothing less than a govt dedicated to revolutionising Ireland's political, social, and economic landscape would be acceptable to them.

A future SF-led govt is a possibility, if recent trends in opinion polls continue. You can thank Labour for that - shot themselves in the foot by hooking up with FG.

laoch na mona · 02-06-2012 3:06pm

we have a good left alternative which is growing
don't confuse socialism with populism

jank · 04-06-2012 2:07pm

laoch na mona wrote: »

we have a good left alternative which is growing
don't confuse socialism with populism

Hopefully that's the reason they will never get into power. Can you imagine RBB as minister for finance?

VinLieger · 04-06-2012 2:31pm

laoch na mona wrote: »

we have a good left alternative which is growing
don't confuse socialism with populism

Nobody's confusing it but every single party or group not in government, except for FF, was preaching populist views with very little basis in fact, they were telling people exactly what they wanted to hear which is how we got into this mess in the first place

Son Of A Vidic · 07-06-2012 1:17pm

RichardAnd wrote: »

We could debate the differences between parties for many hours but to me, it seems that elections here can be summed up by a quote from the late Bill Hicks.

"I think the puppet on the right shares my beliefs."
"I think the puppet on the left is more to my liking."
"Hey, wait a minute, there's one guy holding out both puppets!"

Excellent quote and pretty much sums it up.

ednwireland · 07-06-2012 3:50pm

flipping good question, i have no idea

RichardAnd · 07-06-2012 5:48pm

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Excellent quote and pretty much sums it up.

Thank you. I would encourage anything with an interest in politics to look into Bill Hicks works. He was far more than a comedian, he was a man with a truly wonderful and refreshing view on the world. The same could be said of George Carlin.

The reality as I see it, is that that it doesn't matter who we vote for or how we choose to vote in a referendum. The real rulers of the world aren't politicians and if they are, they certainly aren't Irish politicians. Your local TD might be able to get the odd fence fixed or arrange for a school to have a new boiler installed but when it comes to the real items of power, the laws are made and signed at a far higher level.

Thus, when the venal little sock puppets in RTE taut out another convoluted piece of half truths or propaganda, don't bother getting worked up or shaking your fist at a picture of Enda Kenny because he doesn't matter. No, Enda and his coterie of fools and yes men exist for a very simple reason, they postulate the idea that the masses actually have a choice in the decisions that affect their lives and when the great unwashed become irate, they stand ready to soak up backlash, however mild it is.

When the next election rolls around, vote for FG, FF, the ULA, SF or whomever else decides to stand, it doesn't matter who wins. As for me, I think I'd like to see Jedward sitting in Enda's seat for a few years because if they were, people might start to wake up when they realise nothing will change.

fianna saor · 08-06-2012 2:53pm

a new nationalist party which puts our own country first instead of our lapdog status within europe

hyperborean · 08-06-2012 4:00pm

The whip system needs to go, smaller government......

People need to cop the f on, do some research before voting

jmayo · 08-06-2012 4:03pm

stefanovich wrote: »

This is unlikely to happen but I am not discounting the possibility that SF/ULA could eventually get into power.

If that happened it would really shake up politics in Ireland which I think is what we need.

Yeah right.
Dream on.

The last few days have shown how much they would shake up politics.
They can't bring themselves to demand that a tax defaulter and tax cheat should resign his seat.
They have offered mealy mouthed excuses.
They have claimed it is wrong, but they have also stated the person in question should not resign as it is a matter for the people who elected him.

Even the most self righteous of them all one, joe higgins, has slipped.

Not to mention the People Before Profit Taxes .

The funny thing is they did not adopt this stance when the moriarity report came out and they demanded the TD involved in that should resign immediately.

Oh and if you think SF are any different did anybody notice the excuses trotted out when one of their members was found out to have purchased at taxpayers expense enough printing cartridges to outdo Folens publishing. :rolleyes:

stefanovich · 08-06-2012 5:17pm

jmayo wrote: »

Yeah right.
Dream on.

The last few days have shown how much they would shake up politics.
They can't bring themselves to demand that a tax defaulter and tax cheat should resign his seat.
They have offered mealy mouthed excuses.
They have claimed it is wrong, but they have also stated the person in question should not resign as it is a matter for the people who elected him.

Even the most self righteous of them all one, joe higgins, has slipped.

Not to mention the People Before Profit Taxes .

The funny thing is they did not adopt this stance when the moriarity report came out and they demanded the TD involved in that should resign immediately.

Oh and if you think SF are any different did anybody notice the excuses trotted out when one of their members was found out to have purchased at taxpayers expense enough printing cartridges to outdo Folens publishing. :rolleyes:

Just to clarify. I think the ULA would perform terribly in government. SF are slightly more sane but only slightly. (I do support the reunification of Ireland though)

I am dreaming, but my dream is not for a socialist utopia with the common "worker" on the dole and the super rich (any one with a job) paying all the tax.

My dream is that they would do such a terrible job that the nation would recoil in horror and swing sharply to the economic right.

Really what I am saying is that there is a political void in Ireland at the moment which needs to be filled by a new party and I'm just fantasizing about how we might get there

jmayo · 08-06-2012 6:27pm

stefanovich wrote: »

Just to clarify. I think the ULA would perform terribly in government. SF are slightly more sane but only slightly. (I do support the reunification of Ireland though)

I am dreaming, but my dream is not for a socialist utopia with the common "worker" on the dole and the super rich (any one with a job) paying all the tax.

My dream is that they would do such a terrible job that the nation would recoil in horror and swing sharply to the economic right.

Really what I am saying is that there is a political void in Ireland at the moment which needs to be filled by a new party and I'm just fantasizing about how we might get there

Other more likely path is that the Euro melts down, country goes into serious depression and we get a far right government that sterilises half the population so that we might have some semblance of responsibility and integrity in public life in another 90 years.

Drumpot · 10-06-2012 11:35am

Personally I think our generation are a lost cause. Best thing to do is to try start an education policy to engage people in politics. Focus on getting peopl to ask more questions of their elected officials and more importantly demand a strong ethical/principled person.

It's a long term project but you can't change people's short minded beliefs unless you get an inspirational leader of a party that stands for these things. The quality of leaders throughout the world says it all about how impotent voters of western civilisation feel regarding their options at election.

BFDCH. · 12-06-2012 11:19am

jmayo wrote: »

Yeah right.
Dream on.

The last few days have shown how much they would shake up politics.
They can't bring themselves to demand that a tax defaulter and tax cheat should resign his seat.
They have offered mealy mouthed excuses.
They have claimed it is wrong, but they have also stated the person in question should not resign as it is a matter for the people who elected him.

Even the most self righteous of them all one, joe higgins, has slipped.

Not to mention the People Before Profit Taxes .

The funny thing is they did not adopt this stance when the moriarity report came out and they demanded the TD involved in that should resign immediately.

Oh and if you think SF are any different did anybody notice the excuses trotted out when one of their members was found out to have purchased at taxpayers expense enough printing cartridges to outdo Folens publishing. :rolleyes:

so what are you saying? there is no alternative- is that it?

we accept that everyone in there are clowns cut from the same cloth and that we are going to be ****ed the same way regardless of which clown we vote into power? we just roll our eyes and let them get on with it.

jmayo · 12-06-2012 1:19pm

BFDCH. wrote: »

so what are you saying? there is no alternative- is that it?

Well the gobsh**es of the left are exactly that.
There policies have always been of the fairytale variety, but at least one could claim they were honourable and had some integrity.

The last week has shown they do not have the above, when they can't even demand the resignation of a politican that has engaged in tax evasion, because he would be closer to them than members of other parties.

If you can't see the issue with the likes of ULA, PBP, Ming, etc claiming on the one hand they want to shake things up whilst on the other backing a tax cheat then I think you are deluded somewhat.

The alternative is we start from scratch.
For a start we need a new party to shake things up.
A party not populated by eejits who just protest against everything (stand up richie boyd boy), a party not made up of ones that view our police force as legitimate targets (mr ferris), a party not made up of the ones who want the local gombeenism to continue (healy-raes, mattie mcgraths), a party not beholden to unions or some failed socialist ideology and a party not made up of the old tribalism of ff and FG.

But this party will not work as long as the people continue to support the existing status quo.
In short we get the politicans we vote for and support.
FFS I come from a county which has people who would still support bev flynn.
People in Limerick still support o'dea.
People in Tipp still support lowry.
People in Kerry still support ferris.
And as sure as God, there will be people in Wexford who will still support Wallace.
For all the cr** about change, people are still doing the same thing.

BFDCH. wrote: »

we accept that everyone in there are clowns cut from the same cloth and that we are going to be ****ed the same way regardless of which clown we vote into power? we just roll our eyes and let them get on with it.

I dont' accept everyone in there is a clown.
Some are cute hoors and these are far more dangerous.
Some are smart hardworking and honest, but as a whole most of them could be described as clowns who are in it for their own good.

john47 · 14-06-2012 4:09pm

Well the alternative, if there can be one found, needs to be for the people.

jmayo makes some good comments there, about what it shouldn't be but we need to go further (and there is probably some cross over in the thread "new political party".

Rather than listing what a new party shouldnt be, we need to change the way we think about politics - and the way it works - so instead of a local TD looking after his roads (Healy Ray), that elected representative needs to work and represent the whole country not just their little corner - so then in turn we need a different way to elect TD because if the local people have to elect their reps and the only way that rep can get a vote is to fix the potholes or put a roof on the school well then there will be no change.

So to get an alternative a lot needs to change.

As to a new republican party - mmmmm - that would mostly consist of some people leaving FF and some people leaving SF so thats not a real change - same people, same ideals, different name on the headed paper and election poster.

But, we do need to both start educating ourselves on who to elect and start educating kids in school as to how the country runs. There will be a discussion later this year on lowering the voting age...that could be fun.

Am not a fan of Wallace but 14,500 people gave him a 1st preference vote. In a by-election people of wexford would still elect him!!!

John Ryan
Wexford

thecommietommy · 14-06-2012 4:31pm

Well, FG/FF/Lab are sure as hell not going to change now, so what is needed is a new, left wing alternative and as far as I'm concerned the ULA fit that. Doubt that they will form a single party govt but they certainly will look after the poor and workers rights in any coalition.

fianna saor · 14-06-2012 4:36pm

thecommietommy wrote: »

Well, FG/FF/Lab are sure as hell not going to change now, so what is needed is a new, left wing alternative and as far as I'm concerned the ULA fit that. Doubt that they will form a single party govt but they certainly will look after the poor and workers rights in any coalition.

what is the ula's policy on immigration?

stefanovich · 14-06-2012 5:22pm

john47 wrote: »

There will be a discussion later this year on lowering the voting age...that could be fun.

I am all for lowering the voting age but it needs to be replaced with an alternate method of ensuring the voter is competent. This would in fact be more effective than what we have now as half of Ireland seems incompetent.

What would this consist of? A brief questionnaire about the policies/impacts of the person/party/choice you are voting for submitted with your vote. You get it wrong and your vote is null. This would at least force people to make an informed decision.

Expect the drinking age to be lowered to 16

fianna saor · 12-10-2012 12:47am

the alternative has to be somebody new, these clowns that keep getting voted in are going to keep destroying this country year after year, we need to stand up and put our foot down and not have this sh1t thrown at us any longer. we're just puppets for a european master and any hope of ireland being ireland again is lost as long as the voting trends continue

Dannyboy83 · 12-10-2012 12:58am

I suppose there will probably be low voter turnout at the next election.

I guess a list system is badly needed at this stage, to get some kind of a technocratic government.

I'd prefer to just hand the reigns over to the EU tbh tho, bypass the gombeen Irish middleman.

K-9 · 12-10-2012 1:03am

Sinn Fein are pro choice for abortion.

Strangly hit the ground and disappeared as regards the Marie Stopes Clinic in Belfast.

Replies have gone very quiet, AWAITING SF RESPONSE FROM HQ.

Memnoch · 12-10-2012 6:27am

Representative democracy has taken us as far as it can go and it's limitations grow more obvious by the day. It's time to begin moving towards a more comprehensive direct democracy with a robust system of checks and balances.

Nodin · 12-10-2012 8:17am

K-9 wrote: »

Sinn Fein are pro choice for abortion.

................

They aren't. They never have been. They're in favour of limited abortion in circumstances threatening the life of the mother, as is the case in the North and is (supposedly) the case down here. Its been this way for any number of years now, and - along with the position on drugs - is one where my views and the partys part ways.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/pro-life-campaigners-threaten-to-shut-down-belfast-clinic-210621.html

hallelujajordan · 12-10-2012 8:22am

The only real alternative that makes any political sense is a FF/FG coalition. Notwithstanding their historical differences, they are the most likeminded politically and may actually drive the country in a single direction .. rather than having fundamentally opposed coalition parties pulling against one another . .

By the next election, Labour will have imploded even further; the ULA can't even keep a non-political 'technical group' together and seem to abandon their principles when one of their comrades is in hot water; FG will never get an overall majority and the only party who seem to have any level of stability is Sinn Fein (Gerry Adams for Tanaiste ??)

Its time this country had a real choice between right and left . .

Drumpot · 12-10-2012 9:37am

The system needs to change and people need to be more educated on how their vote can effect the running of the country (and ultimatley their pocket) . .

Vote for Councellors to fix your potholes and leave the running of the country to the TDs . . We need less politicians so people in power have a stronger mandate and are less likely to pander to certain institutions & vested interest groups . .

We also need a government with the stones to reform the public service and completely overhaul how they tender for business. Unfortunatley it would also involve cutting their own pay, pension and allowances which the current crowd wouldnt do if their families lives depended on it . .

hallelujajordan · 12-10-2012 9:44am

Drumpot wrote: »

The system needs to change and people need to be more educated on how their vote can effect the running of the country (and ultimatley their pocket) . .

Vote for Councellors to fix your potholes and leave the running of the country to the TDs . . We need less politicians so people in power have a stronger mandate and are less likely to pander to certain institutions & vested interest groups . .

We also need a government with the stones to reform the public service and completely overhaul how they tender for business. Unfortunatley it would also involve cutting their own pay, pension and allowances which the current crowd wouldnt do if their families lives depended on it . .

I don't buy into the idea that people are voting locally any more . . i think the Irish electorate are well informed and well engaged on the national issues (hence the significant national swing in the last election) . . The problem is that we have too little choice . . there is no A vs B . . its always some variation of A+C vs B+C and we end up in a situation where our parties can promise the sun, moon and stars but then blame coalition and the PfG when their policies get diluted. .

dulpit · 12-10-2012 9:52am

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I don't buy into the idea that people are voting locally any more . . i think the Irish electorate are well informed and well engaged on the national issues (hence the significant national swing in the last election) . . The problem is that we have too little choice . . there is no A vs B . . its always some variation of A+C vs B+C and we end up in a situation where our parties can promise the sun, moon and stars but then blame coalition and the PfG when their policies get diluted. .

The number of independent TDs makes me think that people are voting even more locally. To be fair the likes of RBB, Shane Ross & Stephen Donnelly do seem to be there for the more national issues, but there's more of the likes of Ming, Healy Rae & Wallace there too...

We need a shift to a Labour-led opposition and a FG-FF style coalition, that way less time would be spent discussing the split in coalition, and we can concentrate on the issues. I also think a move to a list system of sorts would be beneficial...

thebman · 12-10-2012 10:04am

dulpit wrote: »

The number of independent TDs makes me think that people are voting even more locally. To be fair the likes of RBB, Shane Ross & Stephen Donnelly do seem to be there for the more national issues, but there's more of the likes of Ming, Healy Rae & Wallace there too...

We need a shift to a Labour-led opposition and a FG-FF style coalition, that way less time would be spent discussing the split in coalition, and we can concentrate on the issues. I also think a move to a list system of sorts would be beneficial...

Those Independents are being voted in for local issues generally though but more as a protest against all political parties in the state that have little difference between them.

Drumpot · 12-10-2012 12:51pm

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I don't buy into the idea that people are voting locally any more . . i think the Irish electorate are well informed and well engaged on the national issues (hence the significant national swing in the last election) . . The problem is that we have too little choice . . there is no A vs B . . its always some variation of A+C vs B+C and we end up in a situation where our parties can promise the sun, moon and stars but then blame coalition and the PfG when their policies get diluted. .

Im not buying the whole "irish people are more informed" view at all . . I dont have the same "Irish are stupid" views that some people say (when we vote for idiots), but we are no more informed then most other countries.

What do you think we are informed of ?

If anything the last election showed that the Irish are no more (or less) informed then anybody else. FG/Lab were voted into power as much because they werent FF as anything else. this is pathetic, depserate and only a sign of a country that hasnt looked for real answers, just a quick change at all cost.

We would get better candidates if people voted for differant kinds of politicians. Lets forget about parties because parties are not the problem, its the people in them.

Two candidates are standing on a public podium debating what they can give to the country if they are elected:

Candidate A speaks of how he wants to properly reform the public service, cut costs to the taxpayer, but states that he might need to raise certain taxes to cover some of the deficit that exists in the budget. He asks that people contact their local councellor with local issues and says that he will strive to improve Irelands fortunes. Candidate A spends most of his time trying to improve his understanding and knowledge in his professional field on a more national level (hes an accountant by trade).

Candidate B says he will push for that local school promised by the last government, will rally against the cutbacks proposed in the nearest hospital, will try and get more officials to clean up the areas (because they have a tidy town award) and will get more funding for the local GAA club that has been successful in recent years. Oh and Candidate B spends much of his time going to residents comittees, funerals and local events (he is a publican by trade).

Are you honestly telling me that Candidate B wouldnt have a greater chance of getting elected ?

ednwireland · 12-10-2012 1:21pm

dulpit wrote: »

The number of independent TDs makes me think that people are voting even more locally. To be fair the likes of RBB, Shane Ross & Stephen Donnelly do seem to be there for the more national issues, but there's more of the likes of Ming, Healy Rae & Wallace there too...

We need a shift to a Labour-led opposition and a FG-FF style coalition, that way less time would be spent discussing the split in coalition, and we can concentrate on the issues. I also think a move to a list system of sorts would be beneficial...

well to be honest the quality of labour (frank mcbrearty) fg (dinny mcginly) or ff (mary coughlan/ brian o domnhaill) candidates in my constituency (donegal south west), didnt leave me with a whole lot of choice the only reason the independant got my vote (and the fact that he was always fighting coughlan for third so giving him a first preference was to ensure that she got kicked out)

i would be in favour of a national list system (ore even maybe half list half constituency) but instead of creating nationally focused candidates i would beleive with the current parties it would just turn into a vested interests bun fight to get on the list, as i said earlier i have no idea who to vote for. out of the candidates that stood i think we got the best of them (and beleive me thats not a good thing)

hallelujajordan · 12-10-2012 1:26pm

Drumpot wrote: »

Im not buying the whole "irish people are more informed" view at all . . I dont have the same "Irish are stupid" views that some people say (when we vote for idiots), but we are no more informed then most other countries.

What do you think we are informed of ?

I'm not sure if we are more or less informed than other countries but I do believe that we engage well at a national level in terms of understanding where we are and having an opinion around how we got here and what the solutions might be .. I think in the boom times we had a much more local focus. . . everybody wanted their piece of the pie and voted for the TD who could give it to them. I think we now understand the need for a national solution a bit better.

Drumpot wrote:

If anything the last election showed that the Irish are no more (or less) informed then anybody else. FG/Lab were voted into power as much because they werent FF as anything else. this is pathetic, depserate and only a sign of a country that hasnt looked for real answers, just a quick change at all cost.

FG/Lab were voted into power because a) FF needed to take a kicking, b) FG/Lab overpromised in terms of what they could deliver and c) because there was no real alternative. . . the third point is critical. . . we can only vote for what is put in front of us . . can you honestly claim there was a better potential outcome from the last election . . ? ?

Drumpot wrote:

We would get better candidates if people voted for differant kinds of politicians. Lets forget about parties because parties are not the problem, its the people in them

Two candidates are standing on a public podium debating what they can give to the country if they are elected:
Candidate A speaks of how he wants to properly reform the public service, cut costs to the taxpayer, but states that he might need to raise certain taxes to cover some of the deficit that exists in the budget. He asks that people contact their local councellor with local issues and says that he will strive to improve Irelands fortunes. Candidate A spends most of his time trying to improve his understanding and knowledge in his professional field on a more national level (hes an accountant by trade).

Candidate B says he will push for that local school promised by the last government, will rally against the cutbacks proposed in the nearest hospital, will try and get more officials to clean up the areas (because they have a tidy town award) and will get more funding for the local GAA club that has been successful in recent years. Oh and Candidate B spends much of his time going to residents comittees, funerals and local events (he is a publican by trade).

Are you honestly telling me that Candidate B wouldnt have a greater chance of getting elected ?

I actually think that by and large we voted for more Candidate A's in the last election than Candidate B's . . . Of course, Candidate A will sometimes wear Candidate B's clothes in order to get noticed, but I do believe that we made an honest attempt to deliver a government that was right for the country and not the town / county. The problem we have is lack of choice. I want to be able to elect a Centre-right government and know that they are not going to be hamstrung by their left wing partners in coalition (or by the unions who support their left wing partners !)

Drumpot · 12-10-2012 2:40pm

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I'm not sure if we are more or less informed than other countries but I do believe that we engage well at a national level in terms of understanding where we are and having an opinion around how we got here and what the solutions might be .. I think in the boom times we had a much more local focus. . . everybody wanted their piece of the pie and voted for the TD who could give it to them. I think we now understand the need for a national solution a bit better.

FG/Lab were voted into power because a) FF needed to take a kicking, b) FG/Lab overpromised in terms of what they could deliver and c) because there was no real alternative. . . the third point is critical. . . we can only vote for what is put in front of us . . can you honestly claim there was a better potential outcome from the last election . . ? ?

I actually think that by and large we voted for more Candidate A's in the last election than Candidate B's . . . Of course, Candidate A will sometimes wear Candidate B's clothes in order to get noticed, but I do believe that we made an honest attempt to deliver a government that was right for the country and not the town / county. The problem we have is lack of choice. I want to be able to elect a Centre-right government and know that they are not going to be hamstrung by their left wing partners in coalition (or by the unions who support their left wing partners !)

I still havent figured out multi quote so apologies for clunking it all together>

I respectfully disagree. I think the lack of choice comes from the motive of why or how people vote. We have the government we deserve because they represent the morals, ethics and values of their people.

We will get to the streets when we are old (OAPs) or when they directly attack our pay (Public servants) but we dont care what our politicians get up to publically (expenses - Pensions) or privately (meetings with vested interests like developers/businessmen). . We dont hold them to account and the Quinn lobby in Cavan is quite representitive of the me fein, protect and defend coote hooers views that are widely conformed to on this island.

We allow ourselves to be promised things at election time and dont demand that governments stick to these promises. I imagine there is one thing you will agree on , its that politicians are populist and will do or say things that they think will further their cause. So why do you think FG/Lab promised so much at election time ? They didnt need to because FF were going to be destroyed whatever they said, but yet they made loads of false promises. You only do that if you think its what people want to hear.

In truth, you give the Irish electorate far far too much credit. Im not saying its completely stupid but there is zero sense of national pride/thought when people are voting. Out of all my friends (many far more educated then me), I would say 5% are interested in talking about politics and the 95% that arent interested in it , usually spout the crap written in papers or generalised view that "we cant do anything to change things" and the problem is the politicians, not the electorate. I can extend that further to people I meet . . You can hardly call an electorate informed if it doesnt really understand how politics works!

If we dont vote for them, they cant get in . . It really is that simple. If you dont like a politician, vote for the least worse . . Problem solved until eventually you get a good candidate who spots that people are actually beginning to place a value on their vote instead of the usual local auction politics that wins the day . .

Sand · 12-10-2012 11:35pm

There is no alternative - you can vote in whoever you like, the civil service is *always* in power. Anyone ever wonder why James Reilly seems to be in the news every day with a "revelation" to defend? Almost seems like someone might dislike Mr Reilly. Someone with permanency. Someone with both contacts to the media and access to information that FoI requests cant provide. Someone unaccountable.

Who could it be I wonder...

Belfast · 15-10-2012 5:50pm

Sand wrote: »

There is no alternative - you can vote in whoever you like, the civil service is *always* in power. Anyone ever wonder why James Reilly seems to be in the news every day with a "revelation" to defend? Almost seems like someone might dislike Mr Reilly. Someone with permanency. Someone with both contacts to the media and access to information that FoI requests cant provide. Someone unaccountable.

Who could it be I wonder...

Good point.

Indeed the civil service and special interest groups are where the power is and we cannot vote them out.

You can see this in the BBC series Yes minister and Yes Prime Minister.

Most democracies in the world are run by the civil service and special interest groups.

The question is what could we replace democracy with?

Edmund Burke said that a true popular democracy would always be run by conmen and charlatans.

What's the Alternative?

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