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What's the Alternative?
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The system needs to change and people need to be more educated on how their vote can effect the running of the country (and ultimatley their pocket) . .
Vote for Councellors to fix your potholes and leave the running of the country to the TDs . . We need less politicians so people in power have a stronger mandate and are less likely to pander to certain institutions & vested interest groups . .
We also need a government with the stones to reform the public service and completely overhaul how they tender for business. Unfortunatley it would also involve cutting their own pay, pension and allowances which the current crowd wouldnt do if their families lives depended on it . .
I don't buy into the idea that people are voting locally any more . . i think the Irish electorate are well informed and well engaged on the national issues (hence the significant national swing in the last election) . . The problem is that we have too little choice . . there is no A vs B . . its always some variation of A+C vs B+C and we end up in a situation where our parties can promise the sun, moon and stars but then blame coalition and the PfG when their policies get diluted. .0 -
hallelujajordan wrote: »I don't buy into the idea that people are voting locally any more . . i think the Irish electorate are well informed and well engaged on the national issues (hence the significant national swing in the last election) . . The problem is that we have too little choice . . there is no A vs B . . its always some variation of A+C vs B+C and we end up in a situation where our parties can promise the sun, moon and stars but then blame coalition and the PfG when their policies get diluted. .
The number of independent TDs makes me think that people are voting even more locally. To be fair the likes of RBB, Shane Ross & Stephen Donnelly do seem to be there for the more national issues, but there's more of the likes of Ming, Healy Rae & Wallace there too...
We need a shift to a Labour-led opposition and a FG-FF style coalition, that way less time would be spent discussing the split in coalition, and we can concentrate on the issues. I also think a move to a list system of sorts would be beneficial...0 -
The number of independent TDs makes me think that people are voting even more locally. To be fair the likes of RBB, Shane Ross & Stephen Donnelly do seem to be there for the more national issues, but there's more of the likes of Ming, Healy Rae & Wallace there too...
We need a shift to a Labour-led opposition and a FG-FF style coalition, that way less time would be spent discussing the split in coalition, and we can concentrate on the issues. I also think a move to a list system of sorts would be beneficial...
Those Independents are being voted in for local issues generally though but more as a protest against all political parties in the state that have little difference between them.0 -
hallelujajordan wrote: »I don't buy into the idea that people are voting locally any more . . i think the Irish electorate are well informed and well engaged on the national issues (hence the significant national swing in the last election) . . The problem is that we have too little choice . . there is no A vs B . . its always some variation of A+C vs B+C and we end up in a situation where our parties can promise the sun, moon and stars but then blame coalition and the PfG when their policies get diluted. .
Im not buying the whole "irish people are more informed" view at all . . I dont have the same "Irish are stupid" views that some people say (when we vote for idiots), but we are no more informed then most other countries.
What do you think we are informed of ?
If anything the last election showed that the Irish are no more (or less) informed then anybody else. FG/Lab were voted into power as much because they werent FF as anything else. this is pathetic, depserate and only a sign of a country that hasnt looked for real answers, just a quick change at all cost.
We would get better candidates if people voted for differant kinds of politicians. Lets forget about parties because parties are not the problem, its the people in them.
Two candidates are standing on a public podium debating what they can give to the country if they are elected:- Candidate A speaks of how he wants to properly reform the public service, cut costs to the taxpayer, but states that he might need to raise certain taxes to cover some of the deficit that exists in the budget. He asks that people contact their local councellor with local issues and says that he will strive to improve Irelands fortunes. Candidate A spends most of his time trying to improve his understanding and knowledge in his professional field on a more national level (hes an accountant by trade).
- Candidate B says he will push for that local school promised by the last government, will rally against the cutbacks proposed in the nearest hospital, will try and get more officials to clean up the areas (because they have a tidy town award) and will get more funding for the local GAA club that has been successful in recent years. Oh and Candidate B spends much of his time going to residents comittees, funerals and local events (he is a publican by trade).
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The number of independent TDs makes me think that people are voting even more locally. To be fair the likes of RBB, Shane Ross & Stephen Donnelly do seem to be there for the more national issues, but there's more of the likes of Ming, Healy Rae & Wallace there too...
We need a shift to a Labour-led opposition and a FG-FF style coalition, that way less time would be spent discussing the split in coalition, and we can concentrate on the issues. I also think a move to a list system of sorts would be beneficial...
well to be honest the quality of labour (frank mcbrearty) fg (dinny mcginly) or ff (mary coughlan/ brian o domnhaill) candidates in my constituency (donegal south west), didnt leave me with a whole lot of choice the only reason the independant got my vote (and the fact that he was always fighting coughlan for third so giving him a first preference was to ensure that she got kicked out)
i would be in favour of a national list system (ore even maybe half list half constituency) but instead of creating nationally focused candidates i would beleive with the current parties it would just turn into a vested interests bun fight to get on the list, as i said earlier i have no idea who to vote for. out of the candidates that stood i think we got the best of them (and beleive me thats not a good thing)0 -
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Im not buying the whole "irish people are more informed" view at all . . I dont have the same "Irish are stupid" views that some people say (when we vote for idiots), but we are no more informed then most other countries.
What do you think we are informed of ?
I'm not sure if we are more or less informed than other countries but I do believe that we engage well at a national level in terms of understanding where we are and having an opinion around how we got here and what the solutions might be .. I think in the boom times we had a much more local focus. . . everybody wanted their piece of the pie and voted for the TD who could give it to them. I think we now understand the need for a national solution a bit better.Drumpot wrote:If anything the last election showed that the Irish are no more (or less) informed then anybody else. FG/Lab were voted into power as much because they werent FF as anything else. this is pathetic, depserate and only a sign of a country that hasnt looked for real answers, just a quick change at all cost.
FG/Lab were voted into power because a) FF needed to take a kicking, b) FG/Lab overpromised in terms of what they could deliver and c) because there was no real alternative. . . the third point is critical. . . we can only vote for what is put in front of us . . can you honestly claim there was a better potential outcome from the last election . . ? ?Drumpot wrote:We would get better candidates if people voted for differant kinds of politicians. Lets forget about parties because parties are not the problem, its the people in them
Two candidates are standing on a public podium debating what they can give to the country if they are elected:- Candidate A speaks of how he wants to properly reform the public service, cut costs to the taxpayer, but states that he might need to raise certain taxes to cover some of the deficit that exists in the budget. He asks that people contact their local councellor with local issues and says that he will strive to improve Irelands fortunes. Candidate A spends most of his time trying to improve his understanding and knowledge in his professional field on a more national level (hes an accountant by trade).
- Candidate B says he will push for that local school promised by the last government, will rally against the cutbacks proposed in the nearest hospital, will try and get more officials to clean up the areas (because they have a tidy town award) and will get more funding for the local GAA club that has been successful in recent years. Oh and Candidate B spends much of his time going to residents comittees, funerals and local events (he is a publican by trade).
I actually think that by and large we voted for more Candidate A's in the last election than Candidate B's . . . Of course, Candidate A will sometimes wear Candidate B's clothes in order to get noticed, but I do believe that we made an honest attempt to deliver a government that was right for the country and not the town / county. The problem we have is lack of choice. I want to be able to elect a Centre-right government and know that they are not going to be hamstrung by their left wing partners in coalition (or by the unions who support their left wing partners !)0 -
hallelujajordan wrote: »I'm not sure if we are more or less informed than other countries but I do believe that we engage well at a national level in terms of understanding where we are and having an opinion around how we got here and what the solutions might be .. I think in the boom times we had a much more local focus. . . everybody wanted their piece of the pie and voted for the TD who could give it to them. I think we now understand the need for a national solution a bit better.
FG/Lab were voted into power because a) FF needed to take a kicking, b) FG/Lab overpromised in terms of what they could deliver and c) because there was no real alternative. . . the third point is critical. . . we can only vote for what is put in front of us . . can you honestly claim there was a better potential outcome from the last election . . ? ?
I actually think that by and large we voted for more Candidate A's in the last election than Candidate B's . . . Of course, Candidate A will sometimes wear Candidate B's clothes in order to get noticed, but I do believe that we made an honest attempt to deliver a government that was right for the country and not the town / county. The problem we have is lack of choice. I want to be able to elect a Centre-right government and know that they are not going to be hamstrung by their left wing partners in coalition (or by the unions who support their left wing partners !)
I still havent figured out multi quote so apologies for clunking it all together>
I respectfully disagree. I think the lack of choice comes from the motive of why or how people vote. We have the government we deserve because they represent the morals, ethics and values of their people.
We will get to the streets when we are old (OAPs) or when they directly attack our pay (Public servants) but we dont care what our politicians get up to publically (expenses - Pensions) or privately (meetings with vested interests like developers/businessmen). . We dont hold them to account and the Quinn lobby in Cavan is quite representitive of the me fein, protect and defend coote hooers views that are widely conformed to on this island.
We allow ourselves to be promised things at election time and dont demand that governments stick to these promises. I imagine there is one thing you will agree on , its that politicians are populist and will do or say things that they think will further their cause. So why do you think FG/Lab promised so much at election time ? They didnt need to because FF were going to be destroyed whatever they said, but yet they made loads of false promises. You only do that if you think its what people want to hear.
In truth, you give the Irish electorate far far too much credit. Im not saying its completely stupid but there is zero sense of national pride/thought when people are voting. Out of all my friends (many far more educated then me), I would say 5% are interested in talking about politics and the 95% that arent interested in it , usually spout the crap written in papers or generalised view that "we cant do anything to change things" and the problem is the politicians, not the electorate. I can extend that further to people I meet . . You can hardly call an electorate informed if it doesnt really understand how politics works!
If we dont vote for them, they cant get in . . It really is that simple. If you dont like a politician, vote for the least worse . . Problem solved until eventually you get a good candidate who spots that people are actually beginning to place a value on their vote instead of the usual local auction politics that wins the day . .0 -
There is no alternative - you can vote in whoever you like, the civil service is *always* in power. Anyone ever wonder why James Reilly seems to be in the news every day with a "revelation" to defend? Almost seems like someone might dislike Mr Reilly. Someone with permanency. Someone with both contacts to the media and access to information that FoI requests cant provide. Someone unaccountable.
Who could it be I wonder...0 -
There is no alternative - you can vote in whoever you like, the civil service is *always* in power. Anyone ever wonder why James Reilly seems to be in the news every day with a "revelation" to defend? Almost seems like someone might dislike Mr Reilly. Someone with permanency. Someone with both contacts to the media and access to information that FoI requests cant provide. Someone unaccountable.
Who could it be I wonder...
Good point.
Indeed the civil service and special interest groups are where the power is and we cannot vote them out.
You can see this in the BBC series Yes minister and Yes Prime Minister.
Most democracies in the world are run by the civil service and special interest groups.
The question is what could we replace democracy with?
Edmund Burke said that a true popular democracy would always be run by conmen and charlatans.0
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