2700s being withdrawn, possibly sold off?

corktina · 26-04-2012 4:56pm

Dublin Spotter wrote: »

I'd perfer to be on fast 22 trains and not 2700 which can only operate at half the speed of the 22.

Money on the 22 was well spent and have changed train travel for the better.

Yes, I'd agree. I don't much like units at all, but the 22s seem to be able to do almost everything and are modern and comfortable. It seems a good business decision to let the 2700s go, circumstances having changed a bit since the 22s were ordered.

end of the road · 26-04-2012 5:09pm

Dublin Spotter wrote: »

I'd perfer to be on fast 22 trains and not 2700 which can only operate at half the speed of the 22.

Money on the 22 was well spent and have changed train travel for the better.

the 2700s were operating on mostly lines where their speeds were suitable for those lines. the 22000s wouldn't be able to go any faster on these lines.

end of the road · 26-04-2012 5:16pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

But they did spend the money which was for the most part well spent on fairly good trains, the money is spent and gone, it is in the past and that cant be changed so people should stop whinging about it and move on! would you have them throw all that money down the drain now by not using those trains?

this is a company who has always been and will always b incompitent and a shambles who sees fit to throw away stock when they get board of it or want shiny new trains yet won't improve services or speeds and wastes money like theirs no tomorrow yet you want people to stop whinging and move on? will you say the same thing if they mothball the 28 or 29s in a few years? or maybe a few of the 22000s will end up in (storage)

Jamie2k9 · 26-04-2012 5:20pm

not small branch lines and short distance commuter routes like killdare where 26 27 28 or 2900s are suitable.

Kildare is operated by 22 trains for speed reasons. The line from Kildare is manly 90-100mph and a 26/7/800 could only do around 70mph and would cause intercity services to reduce speed.

As already stated the 27000 would need a complete overhaul/refit after 15 years in service. By the way it also costs money and at some stage they would of had to being withdrawn.

money well spent on some extra non-needed stock at the expense of stock that is only 14 years old.

As you are so well informed why was there a shortage of 22 trains to operate intercity routes until last month?? This is before any 27000 was taken out of service. Not all intercity services are operated by 22s yet.

end of the road · 26-04-2012 5:22pm

corktina wrote: »

Yes, I'd agree. I don't much like units at all, but the 22s seem to be able to do almost everything and are modern and comfortable.

i agree. their ideal for long distance services.

end of the road · 26-04-2012 5:43pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

By the way it also costs money and at some stage they would of had to being withdrawn.

yes, when fully life expired. what will happen when the rest of the stock need overhall will they be with-drawn rather then overhalled?

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

why was there a shortage of 22 trains to operate intercity routes until last month??

why don't you email irish rail and ask them?

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Not all intercity services are operated by 22s yet.

you tell me where i said they were.

foggy_lad · 26-04-2012 5:53pm

end of the road wrote: »

yes, when fully life expired. what will happen when the rest of the stock need overhall will they be with-drawn rather then overhalled?

why don't you email irish rail and ask them?

you tell me where i said they were.

why should people suffer a battered old dirty train when there are shiney new trains to use? those auld heaps are knackered like the auld orange yokes were knackered and should not be taking up space in railway yards, they should be taken apart and parts that can be used on other units stored and the rest scrapped!

end of the road · 26-04-2012 6:03pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

why should people suffer a battered old dirty train when there are shiney new trains to use?

did i say they should? no.

foggy_lad wrote: »

those auld heaps are knackered like the auld orange yokes were knackered

what has (the auld orange yokes ) got to do with anything? in fairness the cravens and mkiis were around 40 years old so it was about time for them to be nackered.

Dublin Spotter · 26-04-2012 7:16pm

end of the road wrote: »

yes, when fully life expired. what will happen when the rest of the stock need overhall will they be with-drawn rather then overhalled?

why don't you email irish rail and ask them?

you tell me where i said they were.

You tell me why you think that Jamie2k9 post only refered to you comments as it didn't from what I can see and I think he knows why there was a shortage of trains but his quotes were a follow on from what people say was a wast of money spent on new trains.

Captain Chaos · 26-04-2012 8:01pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

why should people suffer a battered old dirty train when there are shiney new trains to use? those auld heaps are knackered like the auld orange yokes were knackered and should not be taking up space in railway yards, they should be taken apart and parts that can be used on other units stored and the rest scrapped!

The Mk3s that are stored have or had another 25 years in them with a modest upgrade program like what the LHB DARTs got to last another 15 years or so. They are better than any DMU IE have including the 22s and the Mk4 stock. Only the DD stock is of higher standard.

Train manufactures still hold the Mk3 as the standard for ride quality. CAF could not match it with the Mk4 stock.

corktina · 26-04-2012 8:56pm

water under the bridge at this stage. The scenario has changed, it makes sense to use the 22000s intensively and get rid of older stock that needs costly overhaul.

end of the road · 26-04-2012 9:28pm

corktina wrote: »

water under the bridge at this stage. The scenario has changed, it makes sense to use the 22000s intensively and get rid of older stock that needs costly overhaul.

yeh, and when they need overhall get rid of them to and buy more, fantastic idea. maybe when they need a bit of Maintenance we should get rid to? or maybe they should just run them into the ground and give them the bare Maintenance? where does it stop?

Millem · 26-04-2012 10:58pm

It is unfortunate that the 2700s are being withdrawn, no doubt ahead of their time. While still a useful unit, the likelihood of overseas buyers seems unlikely due to their gauge, multiple unit operating issues (decoupling) and the fact that they are at a life stage where they are in need of refurbishment.

It does seem wasteful that the latter 22k batch was ordered, and has prompted the demise of useful trains ahead of their time. That said the operational flexibilities and cost savings of common fleet dmu operation are pretty compelling.

I did a thesis on Irish rail for my masters and interviewed a number of senior management and unions for the report. I am a mkiii fan and raised the issue of wastefulness with them on this, 8200 darts and possible 27 withdrawal ( interviewed them last summer )

The cost savings and flexibility of a fleet wide 22k / 26 / 28 / 29 is unbelievable when you consider relative to loco hauled. Also from a driver training pov and economies of scale re parts it is a bulletproof business case. From an accountancy pov (and not a wastefulness or ethical one) the mkiiis were depreciated to nothing and the 27Ks have served 15 of their 20 years, so the loss to IR is minimal.

Wider 22k operation should offer further cost savings, and IR need to achieve this against a backdrop of falling subsidies and passenger numbers ( the 2010 annual report does not even give pax nos (unprecedented) - I'd speculate these are even lower than the poor 2009 figures)

Anyway, to bring an end to this long and winding post, I would hazard that the mkivs and DDs will be next to be pulled and replaced with icrs - i have no affiliation with ir nor no inside knowledge but the 201 is a loco they're looking to kill and notwithstanding their push pull capability they guzzle the gas, wreck per way and crucially aren't spo like railcars...
Wouldn't be surprised to see a gradual further rollout of 22k on cork services, and introduction to Belfast while quietly DDs and mkivs move to the next available siding for an extended sabbatical ...

Sorry for going on and on ... Cheers !!

Jamie2k9 · 26-04-2012 11:36pm

Anyway, to bring an end to this long and winding post, I would hazard that the mkivs and DDs will be next to be pulled and replaced with icrs - i have no affiliation with ir nor no inside knowledge but the 201 is a loco they're looking to kill and notwithstanding their push pull capability they guzzle the gas, wreck per way and crucially aren't spo like railcars...
Wouldn't be surprised to see a gradual further rollout of 22k on cork services, and introduction to Belfast while quietly DDs and mkivs move to the next available siding for an extended sabbatical ...

I think the Mark4 will be converted to operate with twin power cars which will allow to operate at 125mph but track work would be needed. If Irish Rail didn't cut corners when they ordered the Mark 4 first then they would not be loco hauled. The DTV can be converted but a second power car would need to be ordered.

Thwy would need to order more ICR to replace and it cost millions and it would take years for them to begin service. I can't see them getting money to order new trains from the Goverment anyway.

Then NIR and IR could'nt agree on new trains and then the financing from both sides of the border.

dowlingm · 27-04-2012 2:59am

The one line which will definitely see an upgrade in speed is the Northern Line since the 22s are faster than the 28s/29s, but will have longer dwell times on commuter services with the end doors. C4Ks might have been a better call.

CIE · 27-04-2012 9:23am

dowlingm wrote: »

The one line which will definitely see an upgrade in speed is the Northern Line since the 22s are faster than the 28s/29s, but will have longer dwell times on commuter services with the end doors. C4Ks might have been a better call.

Faster in acceleration or just in top speed?

corktina · 27-04-2012 10:09am

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I think the Mark4 will be converted to operate with twin power cars which will allow to operate at 125mph but track work would be needed. If Irish Rail didn't cut corners when they ordered the Mark 4 first then they would not be loco hauled. The DTV can be converted but a second power car would need to be ordered.

Thwy would need to order more ICR to replace and it cost millions and it would take years for them to begin service. I can't see them getting money to order new trains from the Goverment anyway.

Then NIR and IR could'nt agree on new trains and then the financing from both sides of the border.

we've no money, so what we've got, we are stuck with.It will be a long time before lines are upgraded to 125mph operation ,IE are still upgrading to 100 mph! I don't think you'll see power cars for the mk4s either. I could well imagine them using 22000s fior the faster services and using the 201s for slower services where they will do less harm

Hungerford · 27-04-2012 12:27pm

CIE wrote: »

Faster in acceleration or just in top speed?

Faster top speed - the 29000s have a maximum speed of 75 mph while the 2200s have a maximum of 100 mph. By comparison, the C3Ks and C4Ks used by NIR have a maximum speed of 90 mph. I have a suspicion that the C4Ks have the quickest acceleration of any of them.

For reference, the maximum speed on the Northern Line is 90mph.

Run_to_da_hills · 27-04-2012 2:05pm

Hungerford wrote: »

For reference, the maximum speed on the Northern Line is 90mph.

The Enterprise beyond Newry hardly reaches speeds of over 60 :rolleyes:

Oscar Bravo · 28-04-2012 9:26pm

2820+2819+2806+2805 went from Athlone to Ballina today passing through Manulla Junction just after 1030am.

shamwari · 29-04-2012 9:15am

dowlingm wrote: »

The one line which will definitely see an upgrade in speed is the Northern Line since the 22s are faster than the 28s/29s, but will have longer dwell times on commuter services with the end doors. C4Ks might have been a better call.

I agree with this. The 22K's are an intercity train and their configuration is perfectly fine when fulfilling that role. Using them as a mainstay commuter train on northern and western is IMHO a very bad idea. The don't accelerate with any notable difference compared to regular commuter railcars, and their top speed advantage will never be realised in stop / start situations and on lines where running speeds are typically way below their max anyway.

Any more diagrams worked with 22k's will also see the likes of the issues we had with Cravens and MkIII's in the early noughties when it took an eternity for people to fight their way on board with crowded isles and vestibules, and ultimately a slippage in journey times.

Whilst probably mentioned already here, the only reason one set is rostered on the northern is to allow its maintenance in Drogheda, and it makes sense to use it in "revenue earning mode" when running it to / from there.

foggy_lad · 29-04-2012 10:03am

They are also using some 22000's on the maynooth commuter route which while nice for the people who manage to get a seat is not very good for the people left standing at the doorways and between carriages because there is no room to stand anywhere else. The 29000's are far better on journeys to maynooth mullingar drogheda Dundalk and Wicklow where there is no benefit gained by using the 22000's.

The 22000's are intercity stock and have proven to be able to keep to a timetable better than the mark4 trains but stopping every few miles is not what they were built for. They are very comfortable at speed even on poorer lines and would be perfect on express commuter services to Longford and Dundalk stopping at only a few stations.

Using tem on other commuter routes is like Dublin bus using luxury 35seater coaches on the 145 route at rush-hour, just a badly thought out idea!

Oscar Bravo · 30-04-2012 4:23pm

2722/19 on the Ballina Branch today

Oscar Bravo · 30-04-2012 4:35pm

2800s Ready for action in Ballina

Run_to_da_hills · 02-05-2012 11:40am

Oscar Bravo wrote: »

2800s Ready for action in Ballina

Why didn't they block off the pass through's in these instead of the 2700's

Poxyshamrock · 02-05-2012 12:49pm

Have seen the 22ks in action on the Ennis-Limerick line a few times in the past two weeks, is this a regular occurrence?

highlydebased · 02-05-2012 2:26pm

Poxyshamrock wrote: »

Have seen the 22ks in action on the Ennis-Limerick line a few times in the past two weeks, is this a regular occurrence?

Some links now seem to be always operated by 22k's, evening ones in particular. Some of them go through to Limk Jctn.

dowlingm · 02-05-2012 2:56pm

Is that 22 the one that operates the Nenagh branch in the mornings maybe? If another one was available I think they should look at changing the Limerick-Thurles(ECS)-Thurles-Limerick to 22 since it would be able to take advantage of the higher limits on the stretch from/to the Junction.

Captain Chaos · 02-05-2012 11:07pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Why didn't they block off the pass through's in these instead of the 2700's

Because there was underlying issue with the 2700s auto couplers uncoupling unintentionally and is a safety hazard if people happen to be passing between units and it happens to uncouple in transit. The 26s and 28s don't have that fault. The 27s are built by Alstom like those other heaps of junk that are the 8200 DART units that are reported to be sold off this year. The 26 and 28 are built by Mitsu Tokyu Car like the 85xx DARTs and are very good performers all round.

Run_to_da_hills · 03-05-2012 11:54am

Poxyshamrock wrote: »

Have seen the 22ks in action on the Ennis-Limerick line a few times in the past two weeks, is this a regular occurrence?

With the amount of passengers on this route they should remove the intermediate carriage.

LXFlyer · 03-05-2012 12:57pm

I would imagine that as the remaining 22k sets are commissioned the Limerick/Limerick Junction shuttles will switch to 22k operation, and that would include the Thurles morning commuter.

dowlingm · 03-05-2012 9:42pm

lxflyer wrote: »

I would imagine that as the remaining 22k sets are commissioned the Limerick/Limerick Junction shuttles will switch to 22k operation, and that would include the Thurles morning commuter.

One would hope so, and not that one would be put on the Parity Of Esteem Express instead.

dublinman1990 · 04-05-2012 8:01pm

I've seen 2x3 car sets at Tara Street sometime last week heading from Westland Row to Drogheda Arriving in Tara Street at 8:13pm.

I seen it while waiting on platform 2 waiting for a DART to Greystones.

Captain Chaos · 05-05-2012 10:15am

dublinman1990 wrote: »

I've seen 2x3 car sets at Tara Street sometime last week heading from Westland Row to Drogheda Arriving in Tara Street at 8:13pm.

I seen it while waiting on platform 2 waiting for a DART to Greystones.

Yeah, the 22s are now regular for Dundalk services. During last week it was either 2x3 or a 6 car highcap set working the service. During the afternoon it is sometimes a single 3 car set.

Oscar Bravo · 08-05-2012 9:52pm

2717 on the Manulla-Ballina service today

Oscar Bravo · 08-05-2012 9:54pm

The gangway corridors will also be removed from the 2800s,just like the 2700s. There is 1 set of 2800s in the Paintshop atm.The same livery as the 2700s got will be applied.

Captain Chaos · 09-05-2012 8:28pm

Oscar Bravo wrote: »

The gangway corridors will also be removed from the 2800s,just like the 2700s. There is 1 set of 2800s in the Paintshop atm.The same livery as the 2700s got will be applied.

The 26s are already in the IC livery so makes sense for the 28s to get it too but removing the gangways, why. The 26s got to hang on to theirs even though they mainly work in pairs anyway.

Mycroft H · 10-05-2012 4:40pm

Now that I think of it, its at least 18 months since I seen one on the maynooth line. And even then they were relegated to late evening services. They were bloody loud inside.

Run_to_da_hills · 11-05-2012 11:51am

BX 19 wrote: »

Now that I think of it, its at least 18 months since I seen one on the maynooth line. And even then they were relegated to late evening services. They were bloody loud inside.

Worse again if your at the cab end on the WRC, it can't go five minutes without blasting the horn.

Mycroft H · 11-05-2012 10:05pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Worse again if your at the cab end on the WRC, it can't go five minutes without blasting the horn.

Maybe its the 12 year old in me, but I love the sound of the train horn

The one on the DARTS is a bit weedy though.

Oscar Bravo · 16-05-2012 4:38pm

2707/08 at Manulla Junction this afternoon

18-05-2012 11:54pm

BX 19 wrote: »

The one on the DARTS is a bit weedy though.

I seem to recall that the horn on the Mark 3 DVTs was the same as the DART.

flyingsnail · 19-05-2012 10:42am

Karsini wrote: »

I seem to recall that the horn on the Mark 3 DVTs was the same as the DART.

Sounds very like it all right

Run_to_da_hills · 31-05-2012 1:58pm

Currently on a 22000 shuttle between Limk Jct and Limerick Colbert, is this the end of the 2700's already?

highlydebased · 31-05-2012 2:24pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Currently on a 22000 shuttle between Limk Jct and Limerick Colbert, is this the end of the 2700's already?

The majority of the 2700's are withdrawn! As there are more 22k's to go round it seems many of them are now on Limk Jctn-Ennis workings. No harm either.

Run_to_da_hills · 31-05-2012 2:40pm

highlydebased wrote: »

The majority of the 2700's are withdrawn! As there are more 22k's to go round it seems many of them are now on Limk Jctn-Ennis workings. No harm either.

I noticed a heap of them in Limk, I'm on a 2+1 2700 at the moment on the second leg of the journey to Gort. If they had problems with uncoupling and pass through safety issues could they not just block off the pass through between each carriage?

It seems an awful waste to have these trains scrapped after a such a mountain of work was put into some of them less than two years ago.

Losty Dublin · 31-05-2012 8:42pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I noticed a heap of them in Limk, I'm on a 2+1 2700 at the moment on the second leg of the journey to Gort. If they had problems with uncoupling and pass through safety issues could they not just block off the pass through between each carriage?

Blocking off the gangway is a fire safety risk.

Captain Chaos · 31-05-2012 8:45pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Blocking off the gangway is a fire safety risk.

Didn't stop them blocking off the bubble cars 2751 and 2753. Are they not fire safety risks? On a 2+1 2700 set as above, if there is a fire on the bubble unit there is no where else to go other than off as you can't get to the 2 car unit. So what. I don't think fire safety comes into it.

Losty Dublin · 31-05-2012 8:48pm

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Didn't stop them blocking off the bubble cars 2751 and 2753. Are they not fire safety risks?

I'm referring to the gangways between two units running together. If one carriage needs to be evacuated, a blocked gangway prevents this. I'm not aware of units having run together with blocked gangways next to each others though if you have seen it, fair enough.

Captain Chaos · 31-05-2012 8:51pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

If they had problems with uncoupling and pass through safety issues could they not just block off the pass through between each carriage?
.

They did, and its not the pass through between each carriage just the gangway between sets.

The 2800s are now getting their gangways removed now as they are due for heavy overhaul but are not being replaced. Yet somehow the older 2600s still have theirs fitted.

2700s being withdrawn, possibly sold off?

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