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Can one defame a murderer?

  • 20-06-2013 9:39pm
    #1
    Dubwat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 425 ✭✭


    Can a person defame/slander/libel a murderer/serious criminal if they accuse them incorrectly of a lesser crime?

    If murder was 10 of 10 on the scale of crime and, say, driving in the bus lane was 1 of 10 on the scale, would it be defamation etc if you accused a murderer (10/10) of being a burglar (say, 5/10 on the scale)?

    They've already lost their 'good name' and 'reputation' because of their murder conviction. And calling a murderer a burglar is not a insult?

    Does a murderer/serious criminal get their 'good name' back after they're released from prison and their conviction is spent?

    (P.S. I'm not a lawyer, just curious)


Comments

  • #2
    superb choice of username
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 140 ✭✭superb choice of username


    If you are the 'one' in your hypothetical situation - why would you want to bother causing a fuss. It's wrong to do so, especially against someone who can potentially cause you much more hassle (if a murderer!). If you are accused incorrectly, then just put your story out there and say why you are not incorrect. If you are correct, people will see through the other person - no need for you to stoop to a lower level with name calling. If they have done something personally to you (burgled in your hypothetical situation), then just call the guards. If you know it was them, you must have some solid proof, which the guards should be able to use.

    If you are the 'murderer' in your hypothetical situation......you're always correct and I bow in your superior knowledge...please don't hurt me....*runs away*


  • #3
    Dubwat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 425 ✭✭Dubwat


    I'm neither the accuser or the accused in my hypothetical question - just curious.


  • #4
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • #5
    LowKeyReturn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 934 ✭✭✭LowKeyReturn


    Dubwat wrote: »
    Can a person defame/slander/libel a murderer/serious criminal if they accuse them incorrectly of a lesser crime?

    If murder was 10 of 10 on the scale of crime and, say, driving in the bus lane was 1 of 10 on the scale, would it be defamation etc if you accused a murderer (10/10) of being a burglar (say, 5/10 on the scale)?

    Thats your scale not a courts but it's an interesting question.
    Dubwat wrote: »
    They've already lost their 'good name' and 'reputation' because of their murder conviction. And calling a murderer a burglar is not a insult?

    Thats situation dependent. Let's say I murder someone who raped my daughter. If you call me a thief are you not still defaming me?
    Dubwat wrote: »
    Does a murderer/serious criminal get their 'good name' back after they're released from prison and their conviction is spent?

    We don't have spent convictions in Ireland. If we did murder wouldn't be an offence that could become spent so this is really two questions.

    1) I call a thief a thief even though down the line his conviction might be spent is truth so no defamation.

    2) I call a murder a thief - back to your original point.


  • #6
    coylemj
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,491 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    I think the issue is what relative damage to the person's reputation is caused by said defamation. If you falsely accused a murderer of shoplifting, for example, it could be claimed (in a notional action for defamation by said individual) that the person's reputation was already so deep in the mud so such that reckless or false accusation couldn't really do them much reputational damage.

    Charlie Haughey had a policy of never taking anyone to court for libel (as it was then), it's said because he was afraid of having to defend his 'reputation' in court because in a civil action, his (supposed) reputation wouldn't have stood up to any level of scrutiny.


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  • #7
    Dubwat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 425 ✭✭Dubwat


    Thanks for the replies so far.
    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    Why?

    The post after you says there isn't a scale, per se, in the courts. But I'm guessing that murder would be 10/10 and child abuse would be 9/10??

    Calling someone a '9' is less than calling someone a '10'?? And if it's a proven fact that they're a '10', then calling them a '9' is not defamatory?


  • #8
    coylemj
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,491 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    Dubwat wrote: »
    Calling someone a '9' is less than calling someone a '10'?? And if it's a proven fact that they're a '10', then calling them a '9' is not defamatory?

    Technically it is (defamatory) but they would get sod-all relief in the courts.

    In an action for defamation, how much could they expect to win from a jury - 1c/€1?

    All a potential defendant would have to do is offer them €2 and they would be effectively blocked from taking any action in the courts.


  • #9
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,490 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    They can be defamed, but it will depend on the facts of the defamation, e.g. if Joe Bloggs was convicted of murder many years ago and is now rehabilitated, saying he was a recidivist would likely be defamatory. Likewise, if John Doe killed someone, but was branded a serial killer.
    Dubwat wrote: »
    Why?

    The post after you says there isn't a scale, per se, in the courts. But I'm guessing that murder would be 10/10 and child abuse would be 9/10??

    Calling someone a '9' is less than calling someone a '10'?? And if it's a proven fact that they're a '10', then calling them a '9' is not defamatory?
    While I am in no way saying either crime is in any way acceptable, people are emotional and irrational about child abuse. It is 'better' in the eyes of the public to be a child killer than a child abuser.


  • #10
    Sulla Felix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,442 ✭✭✭Sulla Felix


    coylemj wrote: »
    Technically it is (defamatory) but they would get sod-all relief in the courts.

    In an action for defamation, how much could they expect to win from a jury - 1c/€1?

    All a potential defendant would have to do is offer them €2 and they would be effectively blocked from taking any action in the courts.
    Do jurys decide the award in defamation cases? If they do, how come? I'd have thought the award was the "punishment" so like a sentencing in a criminal matter would be down to the judge?
    Idle curiosity. :)


  • #11
    Feathers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭Feathers


    LowKeyReturn wrote: »
    1) I call a thief a thief even though down the line his conviction might be spent is truth so no defamation.

    Could you argue though that by saying 'You're a thief', you're putting the crime in the present tense, making it seem to everyone else like he actively steals now, rather than he once stole something? Otherwise, his good name wouldn't be seen to be restored from his rehabilitation.


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  • #12
    LowKeyReturn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 934 ✭✭✭LowKeyReturn


    Sulla Felix wrote: »
    Do jurys decide the award in defamation cases? If they do, how come? I'd have thought the award was the "punishment" so like a sentencing in a criminal matter would be down to the judge?
    Idle curiosity. :)

    An award in Tort is not a punishment it's designed to put the person in the position they were in as far as practically possible. That said there are punitive damages but these are not awarded often, unlike the US where they are common.

    The jury serves two purposes in a defamation trial. The defamation requires one's reputation to be diminished in the minds of right thinking people. It's useful to have a number of people to decide that. That's simply not required in a case where someone has been hit by a car.

    Juries used to decide compensation many other matters but the insurance lobby got this stopped as they felt juries were awarding too much. Anecdotally it turns out that since juries where eliminated from the process awards have actually increased.


  • #13
    endacl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,353 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    Wasn't there a politician, who was also the daughter of a politician, who lost a libel case here some years ago as the judge deemed she had no good name to lose?


  • #14
    LowKeyReturn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 934 ✭✭✭LowKeyReturn


    Oh I forgot to mention there is an exception to the normal Circuit Court limit of €38,000 - IIRC to €50,000 for defamation cases. If heard in the Circuit court there is no jury.

    OT but any word on the limits being raised. Shatter mentioned an 'imminent announcement' last time he was at a public forum at the Law Society.


  • #15
    LowKeyReturn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 934 ✭✭✭LowKeyReturn


    endacl wrote: »
    Wasn't there a politician, who was also the daughter of a politician, who lost a libel case here some years ago as the judge deemed she had no good name to lose?

    Probably, high profile defamation cases make for good reading! Aside from some absolute gems from Denning my favourite quote was from Reynolds v. Malocco [1999] 2 IR 203:

    Language is a living thing and words can change their meaning over the years. Sometimes the primary meaning of a word will undergo subtle or even profound changes. On other occasions the word may acquire a secondary meaning which it did not formerly have. The word "gay" falls into the second category. Over the last thirty years or so it has come to be synonymous with homosexuals and homosexual activity. One would have to be resident on the moon not to be aware of this. Not merely has it acquired this secondary meaning but it has in fact eclipsed the primary meaning so that nowadays one rarely hears the term used other than a denoting homosexuals or homosexual activity.


  • #16
    hullaballoo
    Administrators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,750 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭hullaballoo


    Victor wrote: »
    It is 'better' in the eyes of the public to be a child killer than a child abuser.
    No.

    You can recover from child abuse but not from death. IIRC.


  • #17
    Pro Hoc Vice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    There was a recent case where a person found guilty of manslaughter brought High Court Defamation proceedings and settled them where the Sunday World and the Evening Hearld accepted they defamed the person.


  • #18
    Tom Young
    Legal Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 4,338 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tom Young


    That was Summary, far as I'm aware - No damages. Simple correction and declaration.

    Matthews J has a decision on it on courts.ie (Waters v Star) note, history has shown that decision in a different light.

    See S.43 of the 2009 Act. Previous convictions are all admissible. Makes it tough to rely on exemplar character in proceedings.


  • #19
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,490 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    hullaballoo wrote: »
    No.

    You can recover from child abuse but not from death. IIRC.

    The pitchfork wielding mob thinks otherwise.


  • #20
    Qwikpix
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51 ✭✭Qwikpix


    Dubwat wrote: »
    Can a person defame/slander/libel a murderer/serious criminal if they accuse them incorrectly of a lesser crime?

    Depends on individual circumstances. If the "serious criminal" can show that he has a residual reputation, then yes he can be defamed - the damage being to that residual reputation.


  • #21
    Tom Young
    Legal Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 4,338 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tom Young


    I've argued this successfully but it's a load of tosh. Particularly when a ruling is given an Mr Recaltriciant just lives up to his name.


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