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Stopped by garda last night.

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    #32
    mathepac
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,991 ✭✭✭mathepac


    MadsL wrote: »
    ... Want my name and address?
    Good evening sir. I have been observing your posting and I am of the opinion that you were not exercising due care and attention. Can I see your posting licence please? Please switch off your keyboard and remain seated in the typing position. I'll be back shortly ....


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    #33
    bluebottle102
    Registered Users Posts: 82 ✭✭bluebottle102


    @Tabnabs "Absolutely, a Garda does not have the right, save in accordance with law, to ask you for your name and address".

    You are completely wrong there!!!! A Garda can ask you absolutely anything he wants, what you have to answer is altogether different!!!! Look up the Judges Rules.


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    #34
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,355 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    bluebottle102 wrote: »
    A Garda can ask you absolutely anything he wants, what you have to answer is altogether different!!!! Look up the Judges Rules.

    The Judges' Rules concern the administration of a caution (as to the right to remain silent under questioning) when the police are questioning a suspect, usually after he is arrested. They are not relevant to this thread which is dealing with what your rights are when stopped at a Garda checkpoint and you are simply a citizen going about his business.

    If I'm arrested on suspicion of an assault or theft and I'm hauled into a Garda station, I can sit there and refuse to answer any questions. If I'm stopped at a traffic checkpoint and the Garda asks me for my driving licence and I refuse to provide any information, that is a completely different matter.

    Even if the Gardai stop you for drunken driving, the Judges' Rules do not apply since the right to remain silent and sit dumb would get you prosecuted and convicted for failing to blow into the alcohol detector device or whatever it's called.

    Many years ago someone went to the High Court claiming that providing a blood or urine sample in the Garda station went against the principle that a suspect could not be compelled to provide incriminating evidence but that was thrown out.


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    #35
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    mathepac wrote: »
    Good evening sir. I have been observing your posting and I am of the opinion that you were not exercising due care and attention. Can I see your posting licence please? Please switch off your keyboard and remain seated in the typing position. I'll be back shortly ....

    5-0 up in ma bidness, man.


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    #36
    Pappa Charlie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 853 ✭✭✭Pappa Charlie


    Tabnabs wrote: »
    In the OP the poster says the gard copied down their details, so it's fair to assume it was from their licence.



    If a Gard started recording my details, then they must inform me of specified offence they are alleging I have committed. The OP would be well within their rights to write to the local station to where they were stopped and ask for the details of the gard who took their name and address and under what specified offence they were being taken for?

    As I said, we do not live in a police state and the Gards must operate within the same laws that the citizens are required to.

    Will you quote me the law that states a garda cannot record you details after lawfully obtaining them as he did under the road traffic act? I guess when the op writes to the station he'll have to give his name and address to them in order to get a reply, seems a little ironic. People need to cop on and get a life!


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    #37
    bluebottle102
    Registered Users Posts: 82 ✭✭bluebottle102


    coylemj wrote: »
    The Judges' Rules concern the administration of a caution (as to the right to remain silent under questioning) when the police are questioning a suspect, usually after he is arrested. They are not relevant to this thread which is dealing with what your rights are when stopped at a Garda checkpoint and you are simply a citizen going about his business.

    If I'm arrested on suspicion of an assault or theft and I'm hauled into a Garda station, I can sit there and refuse to answer any questions. If I'm stopped at a traffic checkpoint and the Garda asks me for my driving licence and I refuse to provide any information, that is a completely different matter.

    Even if the Gardai stop you for drunken driving, the Judges' Rules do not apply since the right to remain silent and sit dumb would get you prosecuted and convicted for failing to blow into the alcohol detector device or whatever it's called.

    Many years ago someone went to the High Court claiming that providing a blood or urine sample in the Garda station went against the principle that a suspect could not be compelled to provide incriminating evidence but that was thrown out.

    The judges rules also states that a Garda can ask any question but if a Garda suspects a crime has been committed he must caution you at the earliest opportunity.


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    #38
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,355 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    bluebottle102 wrote: »
    The judges rules also states that a Garda can ask any question but if a Garda suspects a crime has been committed he must caution you at the earliest opportunity.

    Gardai do not apply the Judges' Rules in the case of minor traffic offences, even when they find a guy with no NCT, no insurance disc and no car tax.

    Asking a guy to produce his driving licence and certificate of insurance, then asking his name and address and then telling him that he is 'not obliged to say anything unless he wishes to do so' would clearly be nonsense.

    The law places certain obligations on an individual when he's stopped at a traffic checkpoint, keeping your mouth shut is not an option so the Judges Rules do not apply and never have.

    The situation would be different in the case of a traffic accident where there was death or serious injury. In that case the situation would be covered by the Judges Rules and you could refuse to answer questions.


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    #39
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    coylemj wrote: »
    Gardai do not apply the Judges' Rules in the case of minor traffic offences, even when they find a guy with no NCT, no insurance disc and no car tax.

    Asking a guy to produce his driving licence and certificate of insurance, then asking his name and address and then telling him that he is 'not obliged to say anything unless he wishes to do so' would clearly be nonsense.

    The law places certain obligations on an individual when he's stopped at a traffic checkpoint, keeping your mouth shut is not an option so the Judges Rules do not apply and never have.

    The situation would be different in the case of a traffic accident where there was death or serious injury. In that case the situation would be covered by the Judges Rules and you could refuse to answer questions.

    Huh?

    You are obliged to produce your documents or account for them. Any other questions are answered at your discretion, not by rule of law.


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    #40
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #41
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,219 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    MadsL wrote: »
    Huh?

    You are obliged to produce your documents or account for them. Any other questions are answered at your discretion, not by rule of law.

    True but in Heaney v Irelaand, it was established that right to silence/avoid self incrimination did not extent to providing name and address. Accordingly, if the guard was exercising an RTA power to insist on name and address, silence could not be invoked.


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    #42
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,355 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    MadsL wrote: »
    Huh?

    What's with the 'huh?' ? I said that the Judges' Rules are not applicable in the case of minor motoring offences.

    If you disagree then please set out your case.
    MadsL wrote: »
    You are obliged to produce your documents or account for them. Any other questions are answered at your discretion, not by rule of law.

    Reality check: In my experience the Gardai only ask you questions beyond the production of licence and insurance when there is an irregularity. So if your NCT cert or tax disc is out by a couple of weeks, are you seriously going to exercise your constitutional rights and give him the silent treatment or offer some kind of explanation?


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    #43
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    coylemj wrote: »
    What's with the 'huh?' ? I said that the Judges' Rules are not applicable in the case of minor motoring offences.

    If you disagree then please set out your case.

    Well for starters, your rights under the Constitution do not disappear when you are behind the wheel. The only limitation to that is being held under Section 30 of Offences against the State Act 1939.
    Reality check: In my experience the Gardai only ask you questions beyond the production of licence and insurance when there is an irregularity. So if your NCT cert or tax disc is out by a couple of weeks, are you seriously going to exercise your constitutional rights and give him the silent treatment or offer some kind of explanation?

    Production of your documents, followed by a request to search the vehicle appears to be getting more common. You are well within your rights to refuse such a search.

    Silence is not always appropriate if you wish to defend yourself against a charge, however asking questions such as "Where do you work?" or "Where are you after coming from?" has no basis in law and you are within your rights not to answer. Now you might ask why be obstructive. Let's take a scenario. Road checkpoint. You have a shotgun in the boot and blood from rabbits on a sheet. You are legally transporting the shottie. You are late home and wife is pissed.

    Do you really want to deal with this scenario, or should you be allowed peaceably on your way without being tricked into a search that the guards have no basis in law to conduct?


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    #44
    bluebottle102
    Registered Users Posts: 82 ✭✭bluebottle102


    coylemj wrote: »
    Gardai do not apply the Judges' Rules in the case of minor traffic offences, even when they find a guy with no NCT, no insurance disc and no car tax.

    Asking a guy to produce his driving licence and certificate of insurance, then asking his name and address and then telling him that he is 'not obliged to say anything unless he wishes to do so' would clearly be nonsense.

    The law places certain obligations on an individual when he's stopped at a traffic checkpoint, keeping your mouth shut is not an option so the Judges Rules do not apply and never have.

    The situation would be different in the case of a traffic accident where there was death or serious injury. In that case the situation would be covered by the Judges Rules and you could refuse to answer questions.

    If you read my post I stated if a Garda suspects a CRIME has been committed. Nct insurance etc are road traffic matters and are obviously treated differently


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    #45
    0ph0rce0
    Registered Users Posts: 3,928 ✭✭✭0ph0rce0


    a Garda does not have the right, save in accordance with law, to ask you for your name and address. Again, your right to privacy is accepted by the courts to be provided for in Article 40.3 of the Irish constitution. Any attempt by a Garda to deny your privacy must be done in accordance with law. Even if a Garda invokes for example 'The Public Order Act', he cannot demand your name and address unless he is of the opinion that you have committed an offence under that act.

    Neither do you have to "comply with the directions of Garda" (section 8) unless you have been informed that you are committing an offence relative to the Public Order Act whereby there is provision in the act to direct you to 'desist or leave the vicinity" (section 8). The offences (and sections) they might use to question (or arrest you) are "wilfull obstruction" (section 9) and "trespass" (section 13) etc. "Disorderly Conduct "(section 5) is one they could throw at you but not unless you are using "offensive conduct causing serious offence".

    Therefore - you should never give a Garda your name and address unless you have been told you have committed an offence or you are under arrest for an offence.


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    #46
    Finnbar01
    Registered Users Posts: 2,065 ✭✭✭Finnbar01


    What if you are stopped and searched under the misuse of drugs act, the garda finds nothing, would you still have to give your name and address?


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    #47
    jamesr123
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 430 ✭✭jamesr123


    Finnbar01 wrote: »
    What if you are stopped and searched under the misuse of drugs act, the garda finds nothing, would you still have to give your name and address?

    I did. From what i'v read here they'll just take your name and address down anyway,It's routine I suppose..


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    #48
    Pat Mustard
    Registered Users Posts: 9,554 ✭✭✭Pat Mustard


    A Garda has the power to stop a motorist, and to demand his driving licence and read it. The Garda also has the power to demand the motorist's name and address.

    It's all there in the legislation.

    S.40 Road Traffic Act 1961 (Consolidated to Jan 2013)
    40. Production of driving licence on demand by member of Garda Síochána.
    (1) A member of the Garda Síochána may demand of a person—
    (a) driving in a public place a mechanically propelled vehicle, or

    (b) accompanying under regulations under this Act the holder of a learner permit while such holder is driving in a public place a mechanically propelled vehicle, the production to him or her for his or her inspection of a driving licence then having effect and licensing the person to drive the vehicle. If the person refuses or fails so to produce the licence there and then, he or she commits an offence.


    (2) A member of the Garda Síochána may demand of a person who is driving in a public place a mechanically propelled vehicle and is not the holder of a driving licence the production to him or her for his or her inspection of a learner permit then having effect and licensing the person to drive the vehicle. If the person refuses or fails so to produce the learner permit and is a person falling within section 35(1), he or she commits an offence.

    (3) Where a person who is driving in a public place a mechanically propelled vehicle and of whom the production of a driving licence is demanded under paragraph (a) of subsection (1) or is required under subsection (4)(a) produces, in accordance with the demand or requirement, a learner permit then having effect and licensing the person to drive the vehicle concerned, the person has not committed an offence under subsection (1) or (4)(a), as the case may be.

    (4)
    [(a) Where a person of whom the production of a driving licence or learner permit is demanded under this section refuses or fails to produce the licence or permit there and then, a member of the Garda Síochána may require the person to produce within 10 days after the date of the requirement the licence or permit in person to a member of the Garda Síochána at a Garda Síochána station to be named by the person at the time of the requirement. If the person refuses or fails so to produce the licence or permit, he or she commits an offence.]

    (b) In any proceedings a certificate, purporting to be signed by the member in charge of the Garda Síochána station at which the defendant concerned was required, under paragraph (a), to produce the driving licence or learner permit, stating that the defendant did not, within 10 days after the day on which the production was required, produce a driving licence or learner permit in accordance with paragraph (a) shall, without proof of the signature of the person purporting to sign the certificate or that he or she was the member in charge of the Garda Síochána station, be evidence, until the contrary is shown, of the facts stated in the certificate.

    (c) Where any person is required to produce a driving licence or learner permit at a Garda Síochána station and the person produces the licence or permit within 10 days after the day on which the production was required, the member in charge of the Garda Síochána station shall issue a certificate stating that the licence or permit was so produced and such certificate shall be evidence of the facts stated in the certificate.


    (5) Where a person of whom the production of a driving licence or learner permit is demanded or required under this section produces the licence or permit in accordance with the demand or requirement, but refuses or fails to permit the member of the Garda Síochána to whom it is produced to read the licence or permit, he or she commits an offence.

    [(6) Where a person of whom the production of a driving licence or learner permit is demanded or required under this section refuses or fails so to produce the licence or permit or produces the licence or permit but refuses or fails to permit the member of the Garda Síochána to whom it is produced to read the licence or permit, the member may demand of the person his or her name and address and date of birth and, if the person refuses or fails to give to the member his or her name and address and date of birth or gives to the member a name or address or date of birth which is false or misleading, he or she commits an offence.]

    (7) A member of the Garda Síochána may arrest without warrant—
    (a) a person who under this section produces a driving licence or learner permit to the member but refuses or fails to permit the member to read it, or

    [(b) a person who, when his or her name and address and date of birth are lawfully demanded of him or her by a member of the Garda Síochána under this section, refuses or fails to give to the member his or her name and address and date of birth or gives to the member a name or address or date of birth which the member has reasonable grounds for believing to be false or misleading.]


    (8) A person who, when the production of a driving licence or learner permit is demanded or required of him or her under this section, does not produce the licence or permit because he or she is not the holder of a driving licence or learner permit is deemed to fail to produce his or her driving licence or learner permit, as the case may be, under this section.”.]

    [(9) Section 1(1) of the Probation of Offenders Act 1907 does not apply to an offence under this section.]




    Section 62 Road Traffic Act, 2010
    62.— (1) Where a person, on the demand or at the requirement of a member of the Garda Síochána under section 40 of the Principal Act or a requirement of such a member under section 61 (1) of this Act, produces for inspection a driving licence or learner permit under that provision, the member making the demand or requirement of the person, where it is produced for inspection to him or her or, where it is produced for inspection at a Garda Síochána station, the member of the Garda Síochána at the Garda Síochána station to whom it is produced for inspection, as the case may be, may require of the person to state whether the address mentioned on the driving licence or learner permit is the address at which the person currently resides, and if it is not, to require the person to give to the member the address at which he or she currently resides.

    (2) A person who fails to comply with a requirement under subsection (1) commits an offence.


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    #49
    Finnbar01
    Registered Users Posts: 2,065 ✭✭✭Finnbar01


    jamesr123 wrote: »
    I did. From what i'v read here they'll just take your name and address down anyway,It's routine I suppose..

    What if you refuse though? Bearing in mind that they found nothing illegal on you.


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    #50
    Pat Mustard
    Registered Users Posts: 9,554 ✭✭✭Pat Mustard


    Finnbar01 wrote: »
    What if you refuse though? Bearing in mind that they found nothing illegal on you.

    If you are a motorist, Gardai can ask you for your name and address and you refuse to give the details, you commit an offence and can be prosecuted.

    I should have put in s.62(2) of the 2010 Act, so I've edited my post to include it now.


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    #51
    paddyc310
    Registered Users Posts: 46 ✭paddyc310


    Ah don't worry about him think was it a pencil or biro think they get pencil for the first yr,,,,


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    #52
    Finnbar01
    Registered Users Posts: 2,065 ✭✭✭Finnbar01


    The Mustard wrote: »
    If you are a motorist, Gardai can ask you for your name and address and you refuse to give the details, you commit an offence and can be prosecuted.

    I should have put in s.62(2) of the 2010 Act, so I've edited my post to include it now.

    What if you're not in a car though? You're just walking down the road minding your own business.


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    #53
    Pat Mustard
    Registered Users Posts: 9,554 ✭✭✭Pat Mustard


    Finnbar01 wrote: »
    What if you're not in a car though? You're just walking down the road minding your own business.

    Assuming that a Garda has no reasonable suspicion that you have committed a crime (and if you are not a motorist), there is no general obligation to give your details to said Garda.


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