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Dublin Bus strike from Sunday 04/08 [called off - service resumes 07/08]

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12467…27

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    #92
    Atilla
    Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭Atilla


    CreepingDeath wrote: »
    No more than any other group of unskilled public facing workers, eg. shop assistants, fast food workers, barmen etc and Dublin bus drivers have a perspex shield to protect them from physical attack.

    Also they have a defined benefits pension where the taxpayer has to fund the shortfall.

    Let's face it, at the end of it, everyone in Dublin is going to have to cough up more money in fare increases to keep these unskilled workers in their current position. The monthly Dublin bus ticket has already gone up from €98 to €112 in the last year or two, if my memory is correct, and the service has gone to shit as they reduce the service to the bare minimum.

    I for one would welcome privatisation.
    So you rate carrying the most precious commodity as unskilled work , I am not a bus driver but have admiration for them making a stand , it should be noted that this is an all out strike not just drivers , all grades i believe will be in dispute .


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    #93
    CreepingDeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,016 ✭✭✭CreepingDeath


    end of the road wrote: »
    i'l think you'l find driving a bus takes a lot of skill, not everyone can do it dispite what you or others might delude your self in to thinking, if anyone could do it we'd all be bus drivers, some of us just won't be able to do it as were not right for the job

    No it doesn't, just a simple HGV license and Dublin bus even help with the training for that.
    I knew a guy who got into a round of Dublin bus recruitment maybe 5 years ago.
    He was thick as a plank and got booted out of the HGV training for knocking the wing mirror off a truck.
    But he was just one wing mirror away from joining the ranks.

    What's the minimum requirements of a Dublin bus driver?
    Atilla wrote: »
    So you rate carrying the most precious commodity as unskilled work

    Yep.
    What Dublin bus drivers do daily, is what most car drivers do just to get to work, it's just a matter of scale.

    And a bus is robust enough to take a few knocks, it's safer than a car.


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    #94
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    Atilla wrote: »
    So you rate carrying the most precious commodity as unskilled work
    They're not airline pilots, more like drivers of big taxis.


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    #95
    lucernarian
    Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    CreepingDeath wrote: »
    No it doesn't, just a simple HGV license and Dublin bus even help with the training for that.
    I knew a guy who got into a round of Dublin bus recruitment maybe 5 years ago.
    He was thick as a plank and got booted out of the HGV training for knocking the wing mirror off a truck.
    But he was just one wing mirror away from joining the ranks.

    What's the minimum requirements of a Dublin bus driver?



    Yep.
    What Dublin bus drivers do daily, is what most car drivers do just to get to work, it's just a matter of scale.

    And a bus is robust enough to take a few knocks, it's safer than a car.
    The second point you've made is frankly ridiculous. There are far more stringent rules for Category C and D licences. Any public service vehicle is required to comply with stringent safety requirements and especially when the passengers involved have little to no bearing on the safety of the vehicle they're in or the skill and consideration of the driver. They're almost entirely in the driver's hands. The number of passengers a car can carry is obviously much smaller, never mind how a car passenger is in a better position to inform the driver of any concerns etc.

    There's a reason why those getting Category C or D licences have to go for a medical no matter what, and a variety of illnesses that don't stop you driving a car will basically either preclude a doctor from being able to certify you for category C or D, or else the risks involved are uninsurable for a bus or lorry driver while having little or no effect on car insurance.


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    #96
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    Just curious, but what is the minimum standard of education required to be a bus driver with DB?


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    #97
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,991 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    n97 mini wrote: »
    They're not airline pilots, more like drivers of big taxis.
    their only a step below airline pilots, just like train drivers, both are extremely skilled jobs that any old jobsworth couldn't do

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #98
    bmaxi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,859 ✭✭✭bmaxi


    end of the road wrote: »
    CreepingDeath wrote: »
    unskilled workers
    unskilled public facing workers[/quote
    i'l think you'l find driving a bus takes a lot of skill, not everyone can do it dispite what you or others might delude your self in to thinking, if anyone could do it we'd all be bus drivers, some of us just won't be able to do it as were not right for the job
    Bus driving is not an unskilled job and it is not a highly skilled job, what it is is a demanding job. It is no joke dragging a bus around city traffic all day, particularly a city where scant regard is paid to observation or enforcement of traffic law, a wet rush hour in Dublin is no party. They deserve to be paid a fair wage for what they do and some would argue that they are, but given that Dublin Bus relies on taxpayer subsidies,then the only solution is to cut your cloth to suit your measure.
    It has been argued that management should take pay cuts and I agree. Is that going to avert this strike? Possibly. Is it going to plug the gap in the finances? Definitely not. So, we're on to the next phase. Cut the fleet, cut jobs, remodel the pension scheme, sick pay, medical cover? At some stage there is going to be pain for bus drivers so realistically the unions should be looking for an alternative to strike action which is only going to lead to more pain. Dublin Bus has said they're available to talk but they've set what the unions would probably call unacceptable conditions, but I say, call them on it, if they're available to talk then they have to have something to talk about.


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    #99
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,991 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    carpejugulum wrote: »
    they don't even want to accept small changes
    nonsense, they will except changes however they believe all options should be examined for changes along with them
    carpejugulum wrote: »
    ungratefulness and sense of entitlement so typical to many in public service.
    obviously reading to much of the herald, shur its not as if you don't get the odd ungreatful person in the picture perfect private sector where everything is so fine and dandy

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #100
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    end of the road wrote: »
    nonsense, they will except changes however they believe all options should be examined for changes along with them

    What are these options that they want examined?

    Dublin Bus Staff are paid too much in things like uncertified sick days, shift allowances etc for the current situation to carry on, so if they value their positions they should be examining their own options instead of following on like sheep when the big unions tell them what to do.


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    #101
    rx8
    Registered Users Posts: 1,826 ✭✭✭rx8


    If they put everything on the table and had a meaningful discussion on it, then this current situation would be sorted in a few days. But no. ....as usual they want the workers at the coal-face to take all the pain. There is so much money wasted on quangos and junkets that it's just not going to wash this time.

    Take your cuts too in 59 Upr O'Connell St.and we might get somewhere.


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    #102
    CreepingDeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,016 ✭✭✭CreepingDeath


    end of the road wrote: »
    their only a step below airline pilots, just like train drivers, both are extremely skilled jobs that any old jobsworth couldn't do

    rofl !

    Yeah, Dublin bus drivers should have their job description changed to 'land pilots' .

    Bus driving and taxi driving SHOULD be low paid jobs. They don't require years of training, just the ability to drive, no obvious medical conditions and primary school level arithmetic.

    Jobsworth is the phrase you brought up, and it definitely applies here.


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    #103
    Infini
    Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    Lets put everything into a nice summed up little post

    This strike is the result of bad management simple as that.
    Its their decision to try and FORCE through cuts this sunday which is causing this strike to go ahead they were warned this would happen if they did so.
    These cuts come at the same time as the goverment tries to cheapen out on the subvention required to run these services. Anyone remember how they got cuts and savings in the other companies a few years back then cut the subvention by the same amount eh?
    None of the employees in the company have gotten a pay rise in over 5 years theyre already owed 10% in wages.
    They also have also had their spending eroded by inflation and the swath of wanker banker taxes introduced by 2 sellout governments.
    The abuse of the free travel scheme while another topic is also another reason why this has happened it shouldve been pulled for everyone except the over 65's.
    Theres also the simple fact that everyone is FED UP with having their pay and working conditions eroded by people who barely worked in the companies or have no idea what theyre doing.
    All trust is basically lost with management and the goverment as well which is why so many people voted for strike action (over 90%).

    Many people are complaining its an inconvenience for them and how the drivers shouldnt strikem well lets see how you feel if they came along and demanded a 20% pay cut to YOUR wages. Theyre standing up to defend their pay and condition from brainless gombeens and a sellout government.

    Also it could be bad now but wait and see what happens if it were to be prolonged at DB or worse if irish rail's employees decide to strike as well at the SAME TIME because its the same thing there as well and therye just as fed up with bad management and the goverment too. The goverment is scared now expecially that mouth vadatard because if Dublin Bus goes strikes long term and Irish Rail strike then Dublins transport would be shut down and the goverment would be afraid if it spread even further outside transport to the rest of the public sector.

    You can criticise the employees but remember theyre not striking for fun or to annoy you theyre striking because theyre fed up with their conditions being corroded by failed goverment and management and theyre acting while they have the power to do something about it.


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    #104
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,473 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    Infini2 wrote: »
    You can criticise the employees but remember theyre not striking for fun or to annoy you theyre striking because theyre fed up with their conditions being corroded by failed goverment and management and theyre acting while they have the power to do something about it.

    Lets get real here though, they are being eroded from a highly generous starting point that thanks to the CT madness is well out of line with reality.

    Why does DB mgt not simply follow the Ryanair method at this point and simply refuse to recognise and deal with the unions? Clearly the union are way out of touch (not solely applicable to DB to be fair)


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    #105
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Infini2 wrote: »
    Lets put everything into a nice summed up little post

    This strike is the result of bad management simple as that.
    Its their decision to try and FORCE through cuts this sunday which is causing this strike to go ahead they were warned this would happen if they did so.
    These cuts come at the same time as the goverment tries to cheapen out on the subvention required to run these services. Anyone remember how they got cuts and savings in the other companies a few years back then cut the subvention by the same amount eh?

    The subvention argument that is often put out by management and staff is spin for the most part, as of the 2011 accounts, subsidy per vehicle was actually rising, not going down as some people would have you believe.

    Whilst subsidy has gone down by a decent chunk percentage wise over several years, which is an accepted fact, the number of buses in the fleet has also been cut by around 150 as well as well

    With the company doing approx 15% less work or so, of course the subsidy should be cut, else they're getting paid the same amount to do less work, and if PSO is to help cover the cost of unprofitable routes, if some of routes are withdrawn as was the case with network direct, then why should they continue recieving the share of the subsidy for them.

    Indirect subsidy has been increased also in recent years, with the provision of 160 new buses at the taxpayer expensive since 2012. Before this I'm led to believe the company paid for it's own vehicles such as the EV's and the VG's.

    The simple fact is, as LxFlyer says, the cost base in the company is too high and needs to come down and everyoe needs to contribute to that. The days of expecting the government to hand over money every time a CIE company is in trouble are over, since if they hand over money at every beck and call, there is no incentive for them to deal with their cost base or make the business more efficient.

    Remember taxpayers pay a large chunk of your salary whether you like it or not, and your job is to serve them first and foremost, the company should not be run to make the employees profit from it, that is not that the public sector is about, it's about serving the public first and foremost in the most efficent way possible. The average wage in Dublin bus is approx 50k, as per their accounts, that is too high and needs to come down.

    If staff can't accept that then sorry, but they really need to get a grip. Everyone needs to take a share of the cuts including all grades of staff and management, but already having heard some staff say that they should face no cuts and management should take them all, need to get real.
    None of the employees in the company have gotten a pay rise in over 5 years theyre already owed 10% in wages.

    Most people in the country haven't. In fact, most people have had a pay cut and lost many perks.
    Theres also the simple fact that everyone is FED UP with having their pay and working conditions eroded by people who barely worked in the companies or have no idea what theyre doing.

    See above.
    Many people are complaining its an inconvenience for them and how the drivers shouldnt strikem well lets see how you feel if they came along and demanded a 20% pay cut to YOUR wages. Theyre standing up to defend their pay and condition from brainless gombeens and a sellout government.

    The cost base in Dublin Bus is too high. I'm sorry you don't understand basic economics. The starting point for the changes is vastly higher than most people working in similar jobs in the private sector. All people have taken cuts and loss of perks.

    I assume you are supporter of the socialist party?
    You can criticise the employees but remember theyre not striking for fun or to annoy you theyre striking because theyre fed up with their conditions being corroded by failed goverment and management and theyre acting while they have the power to do something about it.

    But they have it vastly better than most people in this country.


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    #106
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 7,223 Mod ✭✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    devnull wrote: »
    The subvention argument that is often put out by management and staff is spin for the most part, as of the 2011 accounts, subsidy per vehicle was actually rising, not going down as some people would have you believe.

    Whilst subsidy has gone down by a decent chunk percentage wise over several years, which is an accepted fact, the number of buses in the fleet has also been cut by around 150 as well as well

    With the company doing approx 15% less work or so, of course the subsidy should be cut, else they're getting paid the same amount to do less work, and if PSO is to help cover the cost of unprofitable routes, if some of routes are withdrawn as was the case with network direct, then why should they continue recieving the share of the subsidy for them.

    Indirect subsidy has been increased also in recent years, with the provision of 160 new buses at the taxpayer expensive since 2012. Before this I'm led to believe the company paid for it's own vehicles such as the EV's and the VG's.

    Now, I don't know the full details but does the 15% drop in fleet size compare directly to a 15% decrease in services?

    If not then the buses are being run more often which requires more servicing, fuel, maintenance hours, spare parts, etc.


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    #107
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users Posts: 28,719 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    devnull wrote: »
    Indirect subsidy has been increased also in recent years, with the provision of 160 new buses at the taxpayer expensive since 2012. Before this I'm led to believe the company paid for it's own vehicles such as the EV's and the VG's.

    Actually, from reading a thread in the Bus Enthusiasts sub-forum, it seems they've now started selling off the first of the AV's as well which is ridiculous in the current climate.
    These buses (and the RV/RA/RH's before them) are apparently snapped up by the UK operators and put into regular service for years afterwards.

    As I said in that thread, whatever about the older Olympians (as they weren't low-floor accessible), there can be no excuse for selling off perfectly serviceable newer buses so the taxpayer can fund shiny new ones.

    This is a perfect example of the skewed priorities of DB (management and unions alike) and why the best thing that could happen here is privatisation and the establishment of a TfL-style setup for Dublin that oversees the lot and sets the various operators performance targets to adhere to (yes I watched that Route Masters show on BBC 2 lately :))


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    #108
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Kaiser2000 wrote: »
    Actually, from reading a thread in the Bus Enthusiasts sub-forum, it seems they've now started selling off the first of the AV's as well which is ridiculous in the current climate.
    These buses (and the RV/RA/RH's before them) are apparently snapped up by the UK operators and put into regular service for years afterwards.

    As I said in that thread, whatever about the older Olympians (as they weren't low-floor accessible), there can be no excuse for selling off perfectly serviceable newer buses so the taxpayer can fund shiny new ones.

    This is a perfect example of the skewed priorities of DB (management and unions alike) and why the best thing that could happen here is privatisation and the establishment of a TfL-style setup for Dublin that oversees the lot and sets the various operators performance targets to adhere to (yes I watched that Route Masters show on BBC 2 lately :))

    It needs an elected Mayor with cajones the size of Ken Livingstone's.


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    #109
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 7,223 Mod ✭✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    It needs an elected Mayor with cajones the size of Ken Livingstone's.

    Knowing Irish politics, we'd likely get one as bufoonish as Boris without the intelligence.


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    #110
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,559 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Kaiser2000 wrote: »
    Actually, from reading a thread in the Bus Enthusiasts sub-forum, it seems they've now started selling off the first of the AV's as well which is ridiculous in the current climate.
    These buses (and the RV/RA/RH's before them) are apparently snapped up by the UK operators and put into regular service for years afterwards.

    As I said in that thread, whatever about the older Olympians (as they weren't low-floor accessible), there can be no excuse for selling off perfectly serviceable newer buses so the taxpayer can fund shiny new ones.

    This is a perfect example of the skewed priorities of DB (management and unions alike) and why the best thing that could happen here is privatisation and the establishment of a TfL-style setup for Dublin that oversees the lot and sets the various operators performance targets to adhere to (yes I watched that Route Masters show on BBC 2 lately :))

    They are 13, almost 14 years old. That is pretty much the industry norm.

    Any longer and maintenance costs go up, and we start going back to the days when the recovery units spent their entire days on the road rather than parked in the garage.


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    #111
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users Posts: 28,719 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    lxflyer wrote: »
    They are 13, almost 14 years old. That is pretty much the industry norm.

    Any longer and maintenance costs go up, and we start going back to the days when the recovery units spent their entire days on the road rather than parked in the garage.

    And yet the UK operators seem to have no problem maintaining these buses for a lot longer than we do. Seems to make sense to them so why can't we do it?

    Also, buses in the good/bad old days would have been a lot more problematic than modern vehicles I'd have thought no? (this may be a trade-off between mechanical reliability and electrical/computerised components admittedly.. I'd say the newest models will be a disaster in later life in that regard).

    As an aside, I can't see anything too wrong with recovery units out doing the job they're there for rather than sitting in the canteen drinking tea most of the time.

    Bottom line is we're in a recession/depression, DB is a loss-making company, and like the rest of the national fleet, the days of changing buses unnecessarily are (or should be!) long gone.


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    #112
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Kaiser2000 wrote: »
    And yet the UK operators seem to have no problem maintaining these buses for a lot longer than we do. Seems to make sense to them so why can't we do it?
    Better availability of cheaper parts? lower staff costs? Better work ethic?
    Also, buses in the good/bad old days would have been a lot more problematic than modern vehicles I'd have thought no? (this may be a trade-off between mechanical reliability and electrical/computerised components admittedly.. I'd say the newest models will be a disaster in later life in that regard).
    The technology and mechanical side has got so much better that the current fleet should not encounter serious issues as early as buses that entered service 15years ago are experiencing today
    As an aside, I can't see anything too wrong with recovery units out doing the job they're there for rather than sitting in the canteen drinking tea most of the time.

    Bottom line is we're in a recession/depression, DB is a loss-making company, and like the rest of the national fleet, the days of changing buses unnecessarily are (or should be!) long gone.
    A bus breaking down discommodes passengers who will be late and annoyed as well as cold and wet in a lot of cases. they will think hard about alternative transport which means loss of revenue. those mechanics that drive the recovery vehicles should be working in the garage if not out on the road! what kind of ass-backward company would keep a fully qualified mechanic "on call" every shift?


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    #113
    KD345
    Registered Users Posts: 1,179 ✭✭✭KD345


    Kaiser2000 wrote: »
    These buses (and the RV/RA/RH's before them) are apparently snapped up by the UK operators and put into regular service for years afterwards.

    As I said in that thread, whatever about the older Olympians (as they weren't low-floor accessible), there can be no excuse for selling off perfectly serviceable newer buses so the taxpayer can fund shiny new ones.

    This is a perfect example of the skewed priorities of DB (management and unions alike) and why the best thing that could happen here is privatisation and the establishment of a TfL-style setup for Dublin that oversees the lot and sets the various operators performance targets to adhere to (yes I watched that Route Masters show on BBC 2 lately :))

    The RVs weren't as in demand as you might think towards the end of their days. The low floor restrictions really limited their appeal to operators, with most of them ending up on school routes or private hire work with small operators.

    In a city like Dublin, the max age of a bus is usually around 13 years, so withdrawing the very early AVs is not a shock. When you put the question of replacing a good bus with a new one, on the surface it does seem ridiculous, but when you factor in increased maintenance costs, reliability and parts, I feel it's a sensible move. I don't think anyone wants to see a return to buses regularly breaking down. You certainly won't see a 13 year old Dublin Bus being sold to a major operator in a city similar to Dublin for use in regular everyday passenger service.

    Also, it's very important to highlight in this specific thread, that it's not Dublin Bus who are funding the purchase of the new vehicles, it's the National Transport Authority. They own the buses not Dublin Bus. Of course, you can argue that it's all the same, as it's tax payers money, but in the context of this thread, its probably important not to blur the line on who is making the decisions on purchasing.


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    #114
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,254 ✭✭✭markpb


    Kaiser2000 wrote: »
    As an aside, I can't see anything too wrong with recovery units out doing the job they're there for rather than sitting in the canteen drinking tea most of the time.

    I agree with most of what you're saying but this is daft!

    If the recovery teams are out on the streets, it's because a bus load of passengers have been left stranded by a broken down bus. All the people further down the route waiting on that bus are also up the creek. All the people waiting on routes that that bus was scheduled to operate late may also be impacted.

    Recovery teams are like first aid kits - you have them but hope not to have to use them.


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    #115
    Infini
    Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    devnull wrote: »
    The cost base in Dublin Bus is too high. I'm sorry you don't understand basic economics. The starting point for the changes is vastly higher than most people working in similar jobs in the private sector. All people have taken cuts and loss of perks.

    Try telling that to drivers trying to provide for 2 kids and a morgage and pay their bills with little to nothing left over. Seriously you'd think everyone is rich in there or something. Therye not and unless your young, single and living at home most of them are basically at their limit with taxes and everything else. Some say that they get €50,000 per year but you should check because usually these quotes are BEFORE taxes are taken into account and usually after thats all taken into account its alot lower.
    devnull wrote: »
    I assume you are supporter of the socialist party?

    Support no party these days only independents the rest are just wasters that sell the country down the river.
    devnull wrote: »
    But they have it vastly better than most people in this country.

    Again dont be so sure of that alot of people assume its better than the rest of the country but its not.


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    #116
    SandyfordGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 450 ✭✭SandyfordGuy


    the average wage here is well under 50 grand before tax so they have it way better


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    #117
    dfx-
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,665 Mod ✭✭✭✭dfx-


    lxflyer wrote: »
    They are 13, almost 14 years old. That is pretty much the industry norm.

    Any longer and maintenance costs go up, and we start going back to the days when the recovery units spent their entire days on the road rather than parked in the garage.

    They're being sold based on their reg plate rather than their condition. And a quarter or so are being kept on which are the same age and who have had a major makeover with new LED displays.

    Most of the first AVs in Donnybrook, AV75-92 are sticking around. A fair proportion of Harristown AV140-AV180s - all 00 reg AVs are sticking around.


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    #118
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    Kaiser2000 wrote: »
    And yet the UK operators seem to have no problem maintaining these buses for a lot longer than we do. Seems to make sense to them so why can't we do it?

    Also, buses in the good/bad old days would have been a lot more problematic than modern vehicles I'd have thought no? (this may be a trade-off between mechanical reliability and electrical/computerised components admittedly.. I'd say the newest models will be a disaster in later life in that regard).

    As an aside, I can't see anything too wrong with recovery units out doing the job they're there for rather than sitting in the canteen drinking tea most of the time.

    Bottom line is we're in a recession/depression, DB is a loss-making company, and like the rest of the national fleet, the days of changing buses unnecessarily are (or should be!) long gone.

    Depends what they are going to be used for, they may be suitable for different types of work but not out for 20 hours a day.

    The NTA bought the new buses not DB.

    Mechanics work on maintaining buses, unless they are called out to change/recover a bus in service no one sitting around drinking tea waiting for a bus to break down.


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    #119
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    SandyfordGuy wrote: »
    the average wage here is well under 50 grand before tax so they have it way better

    Wages in DB are well below 50 grand as well, it would be about 38,500 including shift allowance.
    those who work Sundays as well would be
    which is below the average industrial wage for Ireland.


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    #120
    SandyfordGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 450 ✭✭SandyfordGuy


    Read the accounts


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    #121
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    It is hard to understand how a bus service which is not only a monopoly, but also the main form of public transport, can make a loss.


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