Dublin Bus strike from Sunday 04/08 [called off - service resumes 07/08]

devnull · 02-08-2013 7:20pm

cdebru wrote: »

I don't need to, if you are counting total wage costs divided by total number of employees that is as useful as a chocolate teapot.

But it is the best statistic that can be used, seeing that Dublin Bus don't break down their wage bills by grade or publish such things in their account.

cdebru wrote: »

I actually understand economics and statistics so I know that unless you know the standard deviation an average is an unreliable statistic.

Indeed there are better ways to work things out IF the data is avaliable, but sadly it is not so we have to make use of what is around, and can be verified as being correct. I never include any stats, or arugments on pay from either side from members on here, since quite simply none of the information can be verified. Anyone can come on here claiming they are only paid this much, just as someone can come on here and say they are paying a lot more, I don't use such figures from either side since anyone on either side can pick a figure out of their arse and post it here claiming it is correct, doesn't mean it is.

miller50841 wrote: »

They did not cause the recession, They did not cause the downturn in passenger numbers,

They did not cause the recession, but the treatment I've seen by a small section of drivers recently who refuse to use middle doors ever at all costs is annoying some people and the dwell time at some stops is terrible simply because buses stay at stops for much longer than they need to. That is something they can do to retain passengers, if you keep passengers happy they will return, if you see them as an inconvenience you are in the wrong job. As you noticed, the passenger numbers are going down which does not help the situation of your company and therefore your wages. So you should be doing everything you can to keep the public happy when you drive and interact with the in a positive way to keep them coming back.

They do a very stressful job.

Many others do too, but almost all are paid less than Dublin Bus staff.

when wages were rubbish and still are for the job they do.

I can't believe that not only are you saying you won't take cuts, but you actually deserve to be paid more?

They have to do shift work and work irregular hours and for the junior staff they don't even know what they are doing till the day before so can't plan for anything. Health is a big issue due to above mentioned as it's stressful and just an unhealthy job to do.

If they don't like it, then nobody is holding a gun to their head and saying they have to stay. Many people knew this before signing up for the job, that they would have to deal with it, I don't think anyone was forced to apply and accept a job in Dublin Bus. As I said, if they don't like it, leave and find employment elsewhere. That is what happens in the private sector.

Drivers have to deal with mentally ill, aggressive, drunk, drug users and anything else you can think off as passengers and then you get to other road users who can be very difficult to deal with also.

And it's not nice I agree, but it's part of driving a bus, and serving the public, just like taxi drivers have to deal with as well and anyone who interacts with the public. I see a junkie causing havoc in Spar the other day and a whole load of them follow in. Does this mean they should be paid more too? If you don't like it, you can always find a job where you don't need to deal with the public face to face.

I could keep going but I would be here all night.[/QUOTE]

miller50841 wrote: »

Fully understand your point I believe the Driver Grade, Clerical and maintenance would agree not happily but would accept a hit if the management were playing fair and that all the recommendations were to be clearly worded and none of the usual small print and other cuts that would come in the back door as they are hidden in translation to what's on the paper.

Everyone has to take a share of the cuts, and due to the sheer number of drivers, to make any impact on the savings that need to be made, need to raise a big part of that. Of course Clerical and Maintinance and management should play a part too, but even a big cut to management, would raise far less money than a small cut to management due to the numbers involved.

miller50841 wrote: »

We the people are happy you have a job that you contribute and don't drain the state and also for your own sanity having a job is great even if it's not the best job in the world.

The irony of someone being happy that others don't drain the state, but then drain the state themselves.

The way I look at it is if you or others previous fought for better conditions I wouldn't feel to happy about letting them be taken away easily because what will happen when/if they get these cuts they will come for more very shortly.:rolleyes:

If a company is losing money, and is deep in the red, in the private sector they do not get bailed out by subsidy or any kind of government grant, they go bust and shut down and everyone loses their jobs. Do you really expect people to say,"Sure, I know we're close to going bust, but I won't take a pay cut of any kind" the refusal to take the cut could be the different from being in or out of a job a few months down the line.

But I forgot, public sector workers don't know what it's like to be in such situation, because even when a company is losing money heavily, they insist that they will not take any cuts to help their company out, it's like the socialist party mantra, if something is losing money, just keep on spending regardless. That is what Fianna Fail did, rather than dealing with the situation far earlier before it got to the stage when this country was well and truly up the swanny. The fact is costs have to be reduced in Dublin Bus, going on as is is not an option, the company is losing money and that needs to be addressed. Asking the government to bail you out every time is not the answer.

Stevek101 wrote: »

Has this been brought up yet? With losses running as much as €600,000 a day how long would it take for DB to go tits up? Surely they wouldn't last the week?

Well that is why a strike could be counter-productive, as it will weaken the company even more financially, so that they may need to achieve even bigger savings in the future to offset more money being lost, this is why we could end up here 6 to 12 months late.r

miller50841 wrote: »

No have a good friend in the job was letting me know the story.

There's lots of people on here who know a lot, and post a lot about the subject so passionately but claim they are not directly involved, I'm sure it's because you don't want to get outed by Dublin Bus, but I see through it.

miller50841 wrote: »

It's management that are forcing this and as I said not only driver's are going out it's clerical staff and maintenance.

miller50841 wrote: »

Management need to take a hit also then as I said the rest of the staff would accept some of the changes but as this is going the way it is it's just another attack on Driver's which to a certain degree is unfair and the blame should be on both sides.

Management do indeed need to take some of the cut, but as I've explained, a big cut to management will not save anywhere near the amount that needs to be saved, since there are not many of them, a smaller cut to drivers will generate more overall.

carpejugulum · 02-08-2013 8:34pm

miller50841 wrote: »

but this is a 1st where all are walking off the job before some may not have crossed the picket but it's serious now.

And the strike will magically cover your losses ... forever.
Union bosses are laughing all the way to the bank.

Also, mentioning DB mgmt all the time is pointless.
That incompetent bunch should have been fired a long time ago as it is the worst city public transport I've seen.
Or DB should have been put into PPP a long time ago. I'd like to see how you would strike then.

glossy · 02-08-2013 8:46pm

just wanted to ask will the nite link not be operating then sat/sun ?

n97 mini · 02-08-2013 9:08pm

glossy wrote: »

just wanted to ask will the nite link not be operating then sat/sun ?

I would probably assume the worst.

n97 mini · 02-08-2013 9:10pm

I didn't realise how much stuff is on this weekend, presumably bank holiday weekend multiplied by the Gathering. Such a shame a lot of people, including us, can't go to what we want to (Big House festival, Celbridge, Jack L playing) on Sunday.

Gatling · 02-08-2013 9:21pm

n97 mini wrote: »

I didn't realise how much stuff is on this weekend, presumably bank holiday weekend multiplied by the Gathering. Such a shame a lot of people, including us, can't go to what we want to (Big House festival, Celbridge, Jack L playing) on Sunday.

That was the whole idea maximum disruption to the general public ,

Dub13 · 02-08-2013 9:22pm

Gatling wrote: »

That was the whole idea maximum disruption to the general public ,

You are forgetting one thing, Dublin Bus the company picked the date not the unions.

foggy_lad · 02-08-2013 9:43pm

Dub13 wrote: »

You are forgetting one thing, Dublin Bus the company picked the date not the unions.

The unions and staff decided to strike not the company.

miller50841 · 02-08-2013 9:53pm

Does anyone ever have a nice thing or possitive thing to say.

I do not work for the company not that that's any of your business.

My Father use to years ago and have 2 friends that work for the company.

It's the usual stuff they have a thick skin at this stage with all the abuse and everything else thrown at them.

As already mentioned management need to take a cut.
Then move onto the over payed super checkers and the highly paid inspectors.
The idea of sending a car to follow the 2 or 3 ticket checkers that will board a bus is laughable to be honest.

Fare prices need to be tweaked and a easier system such as only 2 fare's instead of 4 eg. €1.50 and €2.50 and that's it.

Use the real time boards to show a delay or break down etc...

Tag on/off should be used as to speed things up and help cut out any confusion.

Grandeeod · 02-08-2013 10:13pm

Big Union/DB meeting tomorrow that will last well into the early hours of Sunday morning and a resolution will be reached! That's how these Union heads do it. They are the biggest insomniacs I Know!

Polar101 · 02-08-2013 10:31pm

Vahevala wrote: »

That is just unbelievable! :eek: They just become holiday days for most.

Well, just because someone has uncertified sick days doesn't mean they always use them all. I'd assume that is the case at Dublin Bus as well?

I have 2 such days, but I have never used any of them.

I don't also really understand the 'Dublin Bus drivers are overpaid' -argument in this thread. Their wages don't seem to be particularly high, and the shift work seems pretty tough. If I take the bus in the morning at 7, and head back home at around 5 in the afternoon, the bus I take is always driven by the same driver - even if he/she has a few hours off in the middle of the day, it doesn't seem like a shift I'd like to work.

(Disclaimer: I don't work for Dublin Bus, and don't know any drivers. I work in the private sector)

Hilly Bill · 02-08-2013 11:11pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

The unions and staff decided to strike not the company.

Its not the unions thats decide to strike its the staff. The unions only represent the staff.

n97 mini · 02-08-2013 11:23pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Its not the unions thats decide to strike its the staff. The unions only represent the staff.

The unions took the decision to ballot the staff.

Gatling · 02-08-2013 11:37pm

n97 mini wrote: »

The unions took the decision to ballot the staff.

And who makes money while everybody else suffers oh yeah the unions

Hilly Bill · 03-08-2013 12:01am

n97 mini wrote: »

The unions took the decision to ballot the staff.

Because they are working for the staff and its the normal course of action once the proposals are rejected by the staff. The staff themselves are the Union.

Hilly Bill · 03-08-2013 12:02am

Gatling wrote: »

And who makes money while everybody else suffers oh yeah the unions

How do you work that one out? Do you think they get a bonus or something for a strike?

_Kaiser_ · 03-08-2013 12:07am

Hilly Bill wrote: »

How do you work that one out? Do you think they get a bonus or something for a strike?

Presumably he means the unions still get their membership fees and nice salaries regardless of the outcome or impact to staff or the company.

carpejugulum · 03-08-2013 12:49am

Polar101 wrote: »

I don't also really understand the 'Dublin Bus drivers are overpaid' -argument in this thread. Their wages don't seem to be particularly high

Tell us in which countries city bus drivers earn more and how many of those countries are bankrupt.

Gatling · 03-08-2013 12:52am

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Presumably he means the unions still get their membership fees and nice salaries regardless of the outcome or impact to staff or the company.

Exactly ,

Hilly Bill · 03-08-2013 1:18pm

But what has it got to do with a strike?

Sierra Oscar · 03-08-2013 1:45pm

Grandeeod wrote: »

Big Union/DB meeting tomorrow that will last well into the early hours of Sunday morning and a resolution will be reached! That's how these Union heads do it. They are the biggest insomniacs I Know!

Is there? The Labour Relations Commission have said that they have not been requested to attend any talks today, and that none are currently scheduled.

Naturally that will change from tomorrow, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was disruption into early next week.

Lifelike · 03-08-2013 2:46pm

DB have confirmed on their twitter and facebook that no Nitelinks will operate tonight, and that services are unlikely to operate tomorrow. I think it's safe to say that Westmoreland st and D'Olier st will be no-go areas tonight :pac:

I can see this going the same way as the BÉ dispute, 2 or 3 days of disruption and then the strike shall be 'suspended' while talks resume.

Esoteric_ · 03-08-2013 2:48pm

I'm going to have fun trying to get to work tomorrow and monday and however many other days the strike lasts for. :mad: ugh.

The Narrator · 03-08-2013 3:32pm

Just wondering if anyone knows how much these drivers are paid?

Was reading an article which said they were unhappy with what would equate to a €94 cut in daily wage for drivers. I'm guessing that cut relates to wages during celtic tiger periods.

Having said that, a €94 a day cut and still be making a decent wage, the way I see it is that these guys must be making insane money for what they are doing.

jd83 · 03-08-2013 3:49pm

What a joke. Really wish they would just come up with a way to privatize the transport sector with strong legislation to make sure all areas of the community were covered adequately.

As a company their laughable, working on projects to put wifi on buses when they cant even perform their basic function of getting the public from A to B in a timely manner.

The crappy service we get for having the 3rd highest paid bus "pilots"

in Europe!

devnull · 03-08-2013 3:50pm

Those figures are several years old now though, so using such is not valid.

I'd argue the pecking order may have changed, and Dublin would be a place or two lower, but salaries have gone up across all countries since then, plus it's in US Dollars, and the exchange rate from then has changed dramatically to weaken the dollar.

The Wifi was paid for by the National Transport Authority as far as I'm aware, since they funded the vehicles it is on.

ixoy · 03-08-2013 4:23pm

cdebru wrote: »

Not all drivers work Sundays, those that do work 2 out of 5 Sundays so those that don't work any Sundays earn about 37,500 euro a year those that work Sundays would earn about 2000 euro a year more roughly. Either way both are below the average industrial wage for Ireland in 2013.

Just to confirm: 37,500 is your gross salary and not your net salary right?

Nodster · 03-08-2013 4:27pm

NO Nightlink services Saturday

http://dublinbus.ie/en/News-Centre/General-News/Dublin-Bus-Holding-News-Story/

Amirani · 03-08-2013 5:15pm

The sooner the privatisation of Dublin Bus routes start, the better. I'm extremely pissed at having to go without a Bus service tomorrow and I know many others are the same. I'll be championing the inevitable breakup of the company, and I say that as someone with a lot of family ties to CIE. Zero sympathy for drivers that strike tomorrow.

miller50841 · 03-08-2013 6:48pm

NiallSparky wrote: »

The sooner the privatisation of Dublin Bus routes start, the better. I'm extremely pissed at having to go without a Bus service tomorrow and I know many others are the same. I'll be championing the inevitable breakup of the company, and I say that as someone with a lot of family ties to CIE. Zero sympathy for drivers that strike tomorrow.

It's not only Drivers that are going on strike.

Inspectors, Clerical and Maintenance staff are walking off the job also.

Please everybody read into things better and stop attacking just the Drivers.

There is no way that Dublin Bus drivers are on those wages any more my father worked back in the eighties where the wages were buttons and no perks or benefits.

He and many others fought long and hard for what the drivers have today and obviously there would be drivers from that era still working there.

It's not all sugar and spice.

I love the comments of all the ones saying how the people on the dole and out of work would jump at the chance to be a driver, well Im sorry but these would have been and may still be the type that look down upon the Drivers as uneducated and just plain stupid.

There are a lot of people in that job that have all sorts of education and skills but due to the way this country goes there was no work for most that came out of college or their jobs dried up.

Just look at the bigger picture before you comment.

Vahevala · 03-08-2013 6:53pm

What about people who have no way of getting to work because of these buses not being driven?

What about the people who are afraid if they can't get to work, their job is in jeopardy and are not on as much money or have as many benefits as these drivers have? Not everyone can afford to take taxis to work. At times like this, I wish I had a car

miller50841 · 03-08-2013 7:02pm

Vahevala wrote: »

What about people who have no way of getting to work because of these buses not being driven?

What about the people who are afraid if they can't get to work, their job is in jeopardy and are not on as much money or have as many benefits as these drivers have? Not everyone can afford to take taxis to work. At times like this, I wish I had a car

Fully understand your point but there are options also I understand they may not suit everybody but here is a few.

Lots of parts of town are free parking on Sunday's or between 14.00 and 18.00 you have to pay.
Cycle if that's an option.
Workers could car pool instead of driving 1 car each or ask around and see if someone could give a lift.
Use your parents if possible.
Walk if a suitable distance to make it in.
Trains should be ok for now and Luas also.
Civil Defence have volunteers who may be able to help with any serious problems elderly may have in getting to hospital appointments get in contact with them.
Hitch hike you never know it may work if you have a cut out which reads your destination.

Amirani · 03-08-2013 7:28pm

miller50841 wrote: »

It's not only Drivers that are going on strike.

Inspectors, Clerical and Maintenance staff are walking off the job also.

Please everybody read into things better and stop attacking just the Drivers.

I've zero sympathy for them either. Happy?

Amirani · 03-08-2013 7:34pm

miller50841 wrote: »

Fully understand your point but there are options also I understand they may not suit everybody but here is a few.

Lots of parts of town are free parking on Sunday's or between 14.00 and 18.00 you have to pay.
Cycle if that's an option.
Workers could car pool instead of driving 1 car each or ask around and see if someone could give a lift.
Use your parents if possible.
Walk if a suitable distance to make it in.
Trains should be ok for now and Luas also.
Civil Defence have volunteers who may be able to help with any serious problems elderly may have in getting to hospital appointments get in contact with them.
Hitch hike you never know it may work if you have a cut out which reads your destination.

Complete rubbish. People shouldn't have to do this and they wouldn't if we didn't have such a dysfunctionally run public bus service. A private bus market in Dublin wouldn't give rise to what will happen tomorrow.

Dublin Bus workers are shooting themselves in the foot with this action tomorrow. The public pressure for privatisation is going to grow even greater. Private operators won't take half of this rubbish, particularly when they're making the sorts of losses that DB make year-on-year. Staff that refuse to accept economic realities will end up losing their jobs.

miller50841 · 03-08-2013 7:37pm

NiallSparky wrote: »

I've zero sympathy for them either. Happy?

A bit better but then if it makes you feel better they probably wouldn't have any sympathy for the likes of you if you were in the same situation so try and see from there side what is really happening.

The management are looking for the easiest way which will not work and I believe the management will be back in a few months saying things are worse then they thought and because they agreed to all these cuts so easy we will hit them again.

They will not put everything back in 19months time they will keep going for more cuts.

But sure lets bring back the 80's and let the rich get richer and the poor poorer oh wait:rolleyes: that's whats happening.

devnull · 03-08-2013 7:37pm

The clerical staff who are on a 35 hour week, are going on strike because they don't want to work a full week of 39 hours, there is suggestion however they may settle for 37 hours.

The fact is the overall cost of labour and salaries in Dublin Bus is too high and it needs to be addressed. Now what grades are earning what is impossible to tell from the verified figures in the public domain, but the wage bill has to come down and all grades need to take a cut.

Infini · 03-08-2013 7:40pm

Lifelike wrote: »

DB have confirmed on their twitter and facebook that no Nitelinks will operate tonight, and that services are unlikely to operate tomorrow. I think it's safe to say that Westmoreland st and D'Olier st will be no-go areas tonight :pac:

I can see this going the same way as the BÉ dispute, 2 or 3 days of disruption and then the strike shall be 'suspended' while talks resume.

Dont be so sure. I've heard that the Dublin Bus crew are far more militant simply because they cant take anymore cuts (many are regular joes tryin to provide for their families not richly paid like some assume) since they took them in 2009 and also because of various "sellout" introduced charges like the "wankerbanker/householdcharge tax" and such.

One thing to remember though is while it COULD simply last a couple of days there a chance it could get worse I've already heard rumors that if it lasts beyond a week that Irish Rail could go on strike as well since many of the lads over there are in the same boat as many of the DB crew and at the end of their rope. Should remember they targeted BE first because they were the softest the other 2 companies are alot more hardened expecially as back in the eighties the pay was so bad many had to work 7 days at a time to make ends meet. Noone is gonna go back to them days.

miller50841 · 03-08-2013 7:41pm

NiallSparky wrote: »

Complete rubbish. People shouldn't have to do this and they wouldn't if we didn't have such a dysfunctionally run public bus service. A private bus market in Dublin wouldn't give rise to what will happen tomorrow.

Dublin Bus workers are shooting themselves in the foot with this action tomorrow. The public pressure for privatisation is going to grow even greater. Private operators won't take half of this rubbish, particularly when they're making the sorts of losses that DB make year-on-year. Staff that refuse to accept economic realities will end up losing their jobs.

When France has a strike or Germany or Spain and many others when one sector goes out the rest follow as support.

For example when Train Drivers strike so do Bus Drivers and also most office staff and so on as support and also it effects all companies private or public so it works there.

Wish that's how it worked here and worker's united and not be stupidly put against each other by the Media and Government.

Amirani · 03-08-2013 7:44pm

miller50841 wrote: »

A bit better but then if it makes you feel better they probably wouldn't have any sympathy for the likes of you if you were in the same situation so try and see from there side what is really happening.

Their taxes aren't paying my wages so it makes very little difference whether they have any sympathy. Pissing-off taxpayers is a very silly thing for Dublin Bus staff to do, particularly in light of moves to privatise certain parts of the network.

Infini · 03-08-2013 7:44pm

devnull wrote: »

The clerical staff who are on a 35 hour week, are going on strike because they don't want to work a full week of 39 hours, there is suggestion however they may settle for 37 hours.

The fact is the overall cost of labour and salaries in Dublin Bus is too high and it needs to be addressed. Now what grades are earning what is impossible to tell from the verified figures in the public domain, but the wage bill has to come down and all grades need to take a cut.

Not all grades tbh. You say that to the person barely above water trying to pay for their morgage and provide for their family they'd politely tell you to shove it because they cant afford anymore cuts. Theres an old saying "Too many Chiefs not enough Indians" and thats whats happening here. Theres too many managers in all 3 companies and they expect the lads at the bottom to take cuts they cant afford.

Infini · 03-08-2013 7:49pm

NiallSparky wrote: »

Their taxes aren't paying my wages so it makes very little difference whether they have any sympathy. Pissing-off taxpayers is a very silly thing for Dublin Bus staff to do, particularly in light of moves to privatise certain parts of the network.

Staff aint gonna roll over and take cuts just because its an inconvenience to you. Honestly this probably wouldnt be happening to anyone if the entire country had more backbone and had told the politicians where to shove their "bank guarantee" years ago.

Joshycat · 03-08-2013 7:51pm

miller50841 wrote: »

It's not only Drivers that are going on strike.

Inspectors, Clerical and Maintenance staff are walking off the job also.

Please everybody read into things better and stop attacking just the Drivers.

There is no way that Dublin Bus drivers are on those wages any more my father worked back in the eighties where the wages were buttons and no perks or benefits.

He and many others fought long and hard for what the drivers have today and obviously there would be drivers from that era still working there.

It's not all sugar and spice.

I love the comments of all the ones saying how the people on the dole and out of work would jump at the chance to be a driver, well Im sorry but these would have been and may still be the type that look down upon the Drivers as uneducated and just plain stupid.

There are a lot of people in that job that have all sorts of education and skills but due to the way this country goes there was no work for most that came out of college or their jobs dried up.

Just look at the bigger picture before you comment.

A friend of mine works for Dublin Bus maintenance and they are not 'walking' off the job he told me when drivers strike that maintenance are laid off by Dublin Bus and are entitled to claim the dole however they must wait a few weeks before being able to claim it and the strike is unlikely to go on for that long

Infini · 03-08-2013 7:53pm

NiallSparky wrote: »

The sooner the privatisation of Dublin Bus routes start, the better. I'm extremely pissed at having to go without a Bus service tomorrow and I know many others are the same. I'll be championing the inevitable breakup of the company, and I say that as someone with a lot of family ties to CIE. Zero sympathy for drivers that strike tomorrow.

Privatisation doesnt get you anywhere period. Look at what happened when they privatised in England did it make it better? NO. Best thing to do is fire management and rebuild the companies from the ground up.

devnull · 03-08-2013 7:56pm

miller50841 wrote: »

I believe the management will be back in a few months saying things are worse then they thought and because they agreed to all these cuts so easy we will hit them again.

Have you ever thought why this is? If the company loses income, or doesn't cut costs, then the company continues to lose money.

For every day you strike, the company loses more money. This means that this money needs to be made up for elsewhere, because it plunges them even further into the red than they are already. This money then needs to be recovered, since it reduces the income of the company.

If the current cuts are watered down and they only save 75% of the money they wanted to, this means that they fall short of the money they need to make the company viable and trading on an even keel. This means there is still a deficient since they have not saved enough money to bridge it.

So some basic economics for you, if you strike for 5 days, two weekend days and Three weekdays, lets say the figures in the press are wrong which say it's 200k for a weekend and 600k for a weekday. We'll say it's 150k for a weekend day and 500k for a weekday.

500,000 x 3 = €1,500,000.
150,000 x 2 = €300,000
Total = €1,800,000

Now lets say we water down the cuts like staff are asking for, and we only make cuts of €8.4m instead of €11.4m, to lessen the burden on the staff as many are saying on here the cuts are unfair. Seeing as people are saying they can't afford them.

So you then start with a figure of €11.4m, you take €3m out of it because of a settlement, you then add the costs of the dispute on the revenue, and you're left with a company who has saved just €6.6m of the €11.4m they aimed to at the start of the process, leaving a hole of €4.8m in the company finances, if everything stages the same as it is with passenger numbers and does not go down.

Then of course the company then still have a hole in their finances that needs to be plugged by further cuts, not helped by the workers who went on strike which cost the company a large amount of revenue, and the fact the cuts were watered down which means the companies financial performance was still not good enough.

The fact is until the cost base in the company is brought under control to a sustainable level, the vicious circle will go on, since every time staff withdraw services, the company runs up further losses, and the more losses a company make, the less money there is to go around and the more cuts that will need to be made.

That is why strikes don't work in a company losing money. If Dublin Bus were heavily profit making and wanted to attack your wage and conditions I'd have every sympathy with staff members, but they're losing money, and carrying on regardless is not an option.

devnull · 03-08-2013 8:00pm

Infini2 wrote: »

Not all grades tbh. You say that to the person barely above water trying to pay for their morgage and provide for their family they'd politely tell you to shove it because they cant afford anymore cuts. Theres an old saying "Too many Chiefs not enough Indians" and thats whats happening here. Theres too many managers in all 3 companies and they expect the lads at the bottom to take cuts they cant afford.

I agree management are being paid too much, but no cost cutting of management only will raise the amount of money that needs to be raised, there simply isn't enough of them. even if there are 100 managers who take a 10k pay cut each, that still only raises €1m out of the €11.4m needed.

The pay in Dublin Bus is not low for a bus driver by European standards.

devnull · 03-08-2013 8:02pm

Infini2 wrote: »

Privatisation doesnt get you anywhere period. Look at what happened when they privatised in England did it make it better? NO. Best thing to do is fire management and rebuild the companies from the ground up.

Actually in some areas it has, in others I agree it has not, but I don't think anyone is calling all out for private services, the fact is that a monopoly, be it public or private, is not good in any industry for the consumer.

The largest problem in the companies is the cost base, and I agree management are overpaid, but they are far from the only problem.

devnull · 03-08-2013 8:08pm

Infini2 wrote: »

Staff aint gonna roll over and take cuts just because its an inconvenience to you. Honestly this probably wouldnt be happening to anyone if the entire country had more backbone and had told the politicians where to shove their "bank guarantee" years ago.

In the private sector, if a company is losing money, and gets into the red and the workers don't take a pay cut whilst the business is losing money, the business ceases to be and closes down because they are trading insolvent, and the administrators/examiners are called in by the creditors.

The recession was caused by a number of factors, and of course the decisions taken in the past were questionable, but they were taken and unfortunately that is history now. So we have to deal with the current situation the country is in.

If a company cannot afford to pay wages since their outgoings are bigger than the incomings something has to give, else the company ceases to exist, but people in the public companies don't get a grip on the reality of this since they expect the state to bail them out.

I had to take a pay cut in the past, since else we'd all be out of a job and that wasn't just the company saying that, I saw the accounts with my own eyes. The workers took a pay cut by 5% and lost a couple of perks, but the company was turned around, survived and we're all still in jobs. Or would it have been better for us to refuse cuts, wait till a creditor called in examiners etc and we all lost our jobs because the company could no longer legally continue trading.

I'm all for peoples rights when they are having their benefits and pay cut in a company which is profitable that can afford to continue paying them, but if a company can't afford them something has to give.

Pixel Eater · 03-08-2013 8:19pm

It can't just be me but I think people are missing a very obvious point here; mainly that Dublin Bus is loss making because it is a terrible service. It has a glut of windy, indirect routes, some routes with huge gaps in their schedule, a lack of clear information and an incomprehensible system of costing the length of your journey.

Apart from the Luas and limited rail options, both of which cover a narrow area of the city, Dublin Bus provides the bulk of public transport in Dublin. Combined with the fact that it has very little private competition, Dublin Bus has a virtual monopoly. The fact that they are making a loss under these conditions just shows how inadequate the service truly is.

Clíodhna Ní Fhátharta (Dublin Bus spokesperson) says they have “exhausted all avenues". Providing an efficient and reliable service people might actually want to use and it'll soon return to profitability.

LXFlyer · 03-08-2013 8:31pm

Pixel Eater wrote: »

It can't just be me but I think people are missing a very obvious point here; mainly that Dublin Bus is loss making because it is a terrible service. It has a glut of windy, indirect routes, some routes with huge gaps in their schedule, a lack of clear information and an incomprehensible system of costing the length of your journey.

Apart from the Luas and limited rail options, both of which cover a narrow area of the city, Dublin Bus provides the bulk of public transport in Dublin. Combined with the fact that it has very little private competition, Dublin Bus has a virtual monopoly. The fact that they are making a loss under these conditions just shows how inadequate the service truly is.

Clíodhna Ní Fhátharta (Dublin Bus spokesperson) says they have “exhausted all avenues". Providing an efficient and reliable service people might actually want to use and it'll soon return to profitability.

Would you care to outline what this "glut" of windy indirect routes are, and which routes have huge and unnecessary gaps in the schedule?

Pixel Eater · 03-08-2013 9:21pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Would you care to outline what this "glut" of windy indirect routes are, and which routes have huge and unnecessary gaps in the schedule?

Well the number 18 route I was on recently took a fairly twisting course and therefore took an inordinate amount of time to reach it's destinstion. There was 45 mins to 1 hour between buses too. Same with the 17 I used to get. I looked up 2 random routes Dublin Bus' website: 47 and 63. Again both were fairly winedy and had between 45 mins to 1 hour between buses. If a bus gets delayed because of traffic or some other rason then that could be a massive gap in the schedule; utterly pointless for a city service. I suspect that the vast majority of routes are in the same vain.

It would be much better to have fewer routes that are more direct and higher in frequency thus more reliable. Dublin Bus did recently attempt to do something like this under the guise of 'Network Direct' but I suspect that had more to do with cutting staff and buses than actual true reform.

Do you actually use Dublin Bus? I find it had to believe I would need to explain the inadequacies of the service to a regular user.

Dublin Bus strike from Sunday 04/08 [called off - service resumes 07/08]

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