Argentina for Tri-Nations or Six-Nations?

admsitio · 23-09-2007 5:40am #1

There is no doubt about the actual power of Argentina as a rugby team and the question is, they must be included in the Tri-Nations or the Six-Nations?
I likely to see the Argies in the Six-Nations, but many people say that it is not possible and that they must play their rugby in the Tri-Nations.

gadaven · 23-09-2007 10:05am

tri nations for me, italia is allready too much in the five nations...

Ponster · 23-09-2007 10:34am

6-Nations for me though to be honest if the weaker European teams ever expect to catch up with the top teams then the whole 6-nations format needs to be looked at.

daniel3982 · 23-09-2007 12:19pm

You could have an 8 nations with 2 groups of 4, the winners meeting in the final, and then allow Argentina and Georgia in, maybe a 10 nations and get Romania and Portugal in there too.

jayteecork · 23-09-2007 12:23pm

6 nations. It only makes sense as all the Argies are based in Europe.
I don't think the players would complain about having to play one extra game a year, plus their respective unions will make a load of extra dosh.

bing3 · 23-09-2007 12:59pm

6 Nations. They should play their home games somewhere in Spain. They would make us all pull our socks up in the scrum and would bring the game to a wider audience in Spain and Portugal.

LuckyLloyd · 23-09-2007 1:28pm

Whichever one - get them in as soon as possible. They have pulled themselves this far - and fully deserve their place at the top table.

Although, I think this point was made a few weeks ago on this forum and DaveIrl noted that they should be admitted to the Tri - Nations very soon. And that the only impediment at this point is some tooling of Argentina's administrative structure and basic foundations. I'm sure he will reconfirm when he sees this thread.

gadaven · 23-09-2007 1:29pm

daniel3982 wrote:

You could have an 8 nations with 2 groups of 4, the winners meeting in the final, and then allow Argentina and Georgia in, maybe a 10 nations and get Romania and Portugal in there too.

yes why not ? Could be a good idea !
The onlything i'd regret is the atmosphere of the past five nations, it was like a familly....

moe_sizlak · 23-09-2007 1:48pm

for me thier is one clear winner here , the tri nations
for starters , there are twice as many teams in the 6 nations than the tri nations , that alone would be reason enough to add another SOUTHERN HEMPISPHERE team to a SOUTHERN HEMPISPHERE tournament

argentina is no furthern from australia and new zealand than south africa is , you just head east for argentina instead of west for south africa
where as argentina and ive done the flight is 15 hrs from ireland

tolosenc · 23-09-2007 1:53pm

All this talk is making it seem like a World Cup Junior type tournament. Maybe the winner plays the winner of the tri-nations? Do away with the world cup business altogether.

komodosp · 23-09-2007 4:16pm

Hmmm... If Argentina played their "home" games in spain, they wouldn't really be proper home games because they wouldn't have the crowds behind them...

jkehoe101 · 23-09-2007 5:17pm

they're from the SH so Tri-Nations.....

Would love to hear Arg's take on the suggestion they should play home games in Spain..........yes they speak the lingo but that's about it.

What about the Argentinian fans..do they all hop on a flight to Spain ??

Diamondmaker · 23-09-2007 6:35pm

The Argies are more than happy to play their home games in Spain if it means entry to the 6/7 N.

On current evidence the reason they cannot get in is they are too good!

toomevara · 23-09-2007 6:41pm

Diamondmaker wrote:

On current evidence the reason they cannot get in is they are too good!

Nail on the head, no way the likes of the Italians, Scottish, and on current lamentable form, our good selves will want a force like Argentina in the N.Hemisphere contest.

Also if the Argentinians were playing in the tri-nations, which desperately requires another team for symmetry and to make it a more interesting viable competition, it may stimulate the club game in Argentina which is struggling...

funky penguin · 23-09-2007 7:12pm

Diamondmaker wrote:

On current evidence the reason they cannot get in is they are too good!

Which is why I think they'd be a nice stimulant in the six nations. Its such a pity they're in no mans land with these two tournaments.

Diamondmaker · 23-09-2007 7:22pm

funky penguin wrote:

Which is why I think they'd be a nice stimulant in the six nations. Its such a pity they're in no mans land with these two tournaments.

yes of course it is good, but its also ironically, why they cant get in.
The 6N cant have them hockeying the Eng, Welsh and Irish about - that just would not be rugby in the traditional sense!

Also extra games on the already over loaded schedules would make it tough logistically and 1 more game for each team.

jkehoe101 · 23-09-2007 7:58pm

Diamondmaker wrote:

The Argies are more than happy to play their home games in Spain if it means entry to the 6/7 N.

They are ??? Did they say so ?

jkehoe101 · 23-09-2007 7:59pm

One of the reasons for their non inclusions so far if that the whole system in Arg is still amateuer which poses some problems for the IRB.

Hopefully something can be arranged.

Can just improve other facets of SH game and create more interest.

Ponster · 23-09-2007 8:20pm

jkehoe101 wrote:

They are ??? Did they say so ?

Yep, they have stated that they'll play home games in Spain.

Playing in the Tri-Nations isn't an option as few of the players play outside of Europe.

justsomebloke · 24-09-2007 11:27am

Ponster wrote:

Playing in the Tri-Nations isn't an option as few of the players play outside of Europe.

I think that this is a major point. As the Tri Nations is at the end of the domestic Northern Hemisphere's Leagues it would seem that it would be perfect for Argentina to play then as it wouldn't effect them playing for there clubs however it would mean that they would be playing most of the year as come the end of the tri nations they would nearly be in pre training for their clubs in the northern hemisphere and so you could see a lot of player burn outs and injuries for Argentina which would make Northern Hemisphere Teams less likely to sign them in the first place which could be counter productive

Snickers Man · 24-09-2007 7:21pm

There is no way the Argentinians will be able to play in the 3N. Reasons for this are:

1) The existing 3N players don't want them.

2) All their major players play in Europe and the season doesn't fit. Some people (especially the moneybags types) want a "global season" so that the NH is synchronised with the SH. The NH is going to tell them to go to hell. They are NOT taking one of the few distractions we have during our miserable winters.

3) Their players can't move back to Argentina and stay professional because they can't support a professional structure below international level there. If the best Argentinian soccer players can't make a proper living at home, what chance do their rugby players have?

4) Argentinian players may not play for Australian or New Zealand S12/14 teams unless they renounce their nationality. This is the epitome of Aus/NZ hypocrisy. They will bleat loud and long about the poor standard of emerging nations' rugby but are totally unwilling to allow other players ply their wares in their own leagues and stunt the development of their own players.

So the only short-term option for Argentina is to play regular tournaments in Europe. This is not the best long term solution, but in the short term, to build up a professional Argentinian player base, basing their national team in Spain, and have them competing regularly this may be the way to do it.

It may require a slight change in European structure. Maybe we will invite another country in and split the 6N into two groups of four with the winners and runners up in each playing semifinals and finals. Rugby is inevitably going to go that way as it grows.

Go back far enough and the World Cup in soccer was derided in Britain. The main thing was the home international championship. (Their Triple Crown) Now that has died a death to be replaced by the European championship.

Something similar will happen in rugby eventually. But we will need to be sure it has legs before we break something as popular as the 6N.

jkehoe101 · 24-09-2007 10:43pm

so ONE NZ player moans about travelling too far and ALL the players in the SH don't want Argentina in the 3N ??

man....talk about stretching the truth.

While you may have a point about NZ / Aus, over the years (and 2008 some more will be joining in) French and Argentinian players play in SA.

Guy:Incognito · 24-09-2007 11:19pm

daniel3982 wrote:

You could have an 8 nations with 2 groups of 4, the winners meeting in the final, and then allow Argentina and Georgia in, maybe a 10 nations and get Romania and Portugal in there too.

Why not just get the 3 trinations teams in so and have the WC every year. A big tournament every year is a bit of overkill.

Pinetree Boy · 24-09-2007 11:25pm

Argentinian players may not play for Australian or New Zealand S12/14 teams unless they renounce their nationality. This is the epitome of Aus/NZ hypocrisy. They will bleat loud and long about the poor standard of emerging nations' rugby but are totally unwilling to allow other players ply their wares in their own leagues and stunt the development of their own players.

The NZ and Aussie Unions are tasked with promoting their own Rugby. Why would we want a bunch of South Americans in these competitions? Some would say that is the problem with NH rugby. If anyone deserves a break it is the Pacific Island teams who are allowed to have players in the NZ Super 14. Anyway if Argentina are emerging what are Ireland going to becalled after the argies beat them.

Snickers Man · 25-09-2007 12:07am

Pinetree Boy wrote:

The NZ and Aussie Unions are tasked with promoting their own Rugby. Why would we want a bunch of South Americans in these competitions?

A candidly honest attitude indeed.

Now contrast it with some of the whinges from professional rugby commentators from your neck of the woods on sites like rugbyheaven or the Roar where the fact that there are not more countries more competitive at World Cup time is all the fault of the IRB and why aren't the powers that be doing more to spread the game round the world?

The fact is that Europe has at least tried to spread the game to countries where traditionally it has not been strong. Since the advent of professionalism it has initiated the Heineken Cup with Italian participation, the Challenge Cup which also includes teams from Romania and has brought Italy into the Six Nations.

The SH by contrast has excluded the Pacific Islands from its TV deals with Murdoch which formed the impetus for its (legal) professional game and operates a closed shop with regards to players from other countries. What has Australia ever done for Argentinian rugby? Stole Topo Rodriquez.

What has NZ ever done for Argentinian rugby? Nothing at all.

Sure, islanders can play in the S12 teams, as long as they agree to play for NZ or Aus or whatever. Interesting you should point out that SA accepts players from France and ARgentina. Many in SA, as you well know, have little time for the S12/14 or even the 3N and would much prefer to play against European opposition.

Anyway if Argentina are emerging what are Ireland going to becalled after the argies beat them.

It wasn't meant to be an insult. Just a simple historical statement of fact. Argentina are probably the role model for many small countries, but they need some form of regular competition outside of the World Cup and friendlies.
And let's face it. You lot aren't going to give it to them. Not unless you can work a ruse whereby European clubs/provinces pay the Argentinian players' wages while releasing them to play regular internationals and that just isn't going to happen.

il gatto · 25-09-2007 4:21am

Surely a SH team should play in the 3N. It might be awkward, what with most of the team playing in europe, but I don't see why the 6N should facilitate them because their own setup is not fully pro. The 3N is all a bit incestuous anyway with only 3 teams. The 6N would lose it's appeal if it got much bigger anyway. It's appeal (IMO) is in it's conciseness.
Also, it might boost rugby in Spain for a while, but if Spain ever got good enough to join the 6N (probably run Ireland close as it is:D ), would it be viable to have the Argies using it as a base?
It would make more sense to wait until another European team makes the grade and include them (again IMO) such as Romania, Portugal etc.

Snickers Man · 25-09-2007 9:38am

I think the 6N will eventually, not this year or next, evolve into a broader European competition much like soccer has done. It won't become a 9N, 10N or 12N with all teams competing against each other but there will be pools of seeded teams playing against each other before arriving at a semi final or final stage with one winner at the end.

As the game grows, the competition will have to evolve. The thing about the 6N is that, regardless of what anyone south of the equator thinks, it is a hugely popular competition with extraordinary popular support. It would be folly to destroy it unless to replace it with something as good or better.

CoDy1 · 25-09-2007 9:59am

Snickers Man wrote:

I think the 6N will eventually, not this year or next, evolve into a broader European competition much like soccer has done. It won't become a 9N, 10N or 12N with all teams competing against each other but there will be pools of seeded teams playing against each other before arriving at a semi final or final stage with one winner at the end.

This is probably the only way weaker european nations e.g romania & portugal (some with great potential) can hope to improve and develope with any real progress over the next five years. Giving them something to play for and acheive would i.e the option of a place in a new 7N or 8N would make these countries dramamtically improve - which in my opinion can only be good for the game as a whole.

death1234567 · 25-09-2007 10:04am

CoDy1 wrote:

This is probably the only way weaker european nations e.g romania & portugal (some with great potential) can hope to improve and develope with any real progress over the next five years. Giving them something to play for and acheive would i.e the option of a place in a new 7N or 8N would make these countries dramamtically improve - which in my opinion can only be good for the game as a whole.

They should have two divisions IMO with five nations in each, whoever gets the wooden spoon in the top division would be demoted and the winner of the second division would get promoted. It'll never happen though.

ivuernis · 25-09-2007 11:35am

jsb wrote:

I think that this is a major point. As the Tri Nations is at the end of the domestic Northern Hemisphere's Leagues it would seem that it would be perfect for Argentina to play then as it wouldn't effect them playing for there clubs however it would mean that they would be playing most of the year as come the end of the tri nations they would nearly be in pre training for their clubs in the northern hemisphere and so you could see a lot of player burn outs and injuries for Argentina which would make Northern Hemisphere Teams less likely to sign them in the first place which could be counter productive

Argentina should included in an expanded Tri-Nations as they are a southern hemisphere team and if that were to happen I imagine it would only be natural to see their players gradually end up playing for Super 14 teams which would render the whole basis of their participation in an expanded Six Nations moot. That said were Argentina to be added to the Six Nations it could only help it improve it even if some of the current incumbents might not be so enamoured. Either way, Argentina need and on recent form deserve to play in one of these compeitions even if it is on an invitational basis only to be reviewed on a yearly basis.

I also think there is case for an annual or at least bi-annual competition where the winners (or top 2 teams) from the Six-Nations and Tri-Nations play each other in a test-series. The current 4-year World Cup cycle is too long and not always the best barometer of which is the world's best team. This could also be applied to the best teams from the "Heineken" European Cup and Super 14 also, or alternatively a Club World Cup. Obviously this would entail reorganising some national competitions and tours but I would think even the current "tour" system should be scraped in favour of a more organised format as described above. I would even go as far as to say scrap the Lions as I think it has no real place in the current professional era and doesn't benefit the Northern Hemisphere teams.

Snickers Man · 25-09-2007 5:58pm

ivuernis wrote:

Argentina should included in an expanded Tri-Nations as they are a southern hemisphere team and if that were to happen I imagine it would only be natural to see their players gradually end up playing for Super 14 teams

Yes but that just ain't gonna happen. Argentina's problem is geography. It's in the arsehole of nowhere, gazillions of miles away from the rest of rugby civilisation. It is not feasible to base say two super fourteen teams in Argentina and have them play on the other side of the world, literally (it doesn't look like this on an Atlas but get a globe) So their players, for the foreseeable future, will have to be based with existing club sides in other countries.

Only European teams allow this. The Aussies and Kiwis have very firm views on immigrants not relinquishing their previous identities.

Pinetree Boy · 25-09-2007 10:18pm

I have no problem with Argies in the Tri-Nations. It is becoming a little boring anyway but I would not like to see individual players in the Super 14 Franchise sides. There is enough player depth in NZ without needing them and local players need the chance. Pacific Island players do notneed to be available for the ABs to play but they are all NZ residents.

ivuernis · 26-09-2007 11:41am

Snickers Man wrote:

Yes but that just ain't gonna happen. Argentina's problem is geography. It's in the arsehole of nowhere, gazillions of miles away from the rest of rugby civilisation. It is not feasible to base say two super fourteen teams in Argentina and have them play on the other side of the world, literally (it doesn't look like this on an Atlas but get a globe) So their players, for the foreseeable future, will have to be based with existing club sides in other countries.

It's the standard atlas projection which skews the real distances between the southern hemispheres countries and not the globe view. Buenos Aires is actually closer (but not by much) to Auckland and Sydney than Johannesburg is. However, I guess adding another country in the southern hemisphere just adds too much air miles for everybody and as you say NZ and OZ immigration rules would make it difficult for Argentineans to play Super-14 with the exception of SA.

On a similar topic I remember reading earlier this year that the SA Super-14 teams might prefer to play in the European Cup as the distances are a little less and the time-zone is more favorable.

justsomebloke · 26-09-2007 12:12pm

ivuernis wrote:

Argentina should included in an expanded Tri-Nations as they are a southern hemisphere team and if that were to happen I imagine it would only be natural to see their players gradually end up playing for Super 14 teams which would render the whole basis of their participation in an expanded Six Nations moot.

and is that what has happened with the Pacific Islanders? as already stated a lot of their players have to renounce their nationality if they want to play in oz or nz as would probably be the case for the Argentinans. So their players playing for Super 14s teams would actually be detrimental to Argentina's national game

ivuernis · 26-09-2007 1:12pm

jsb wrote:

and is that what has happened with the Pacific Islanders? as already stated a lot of their players have to renounce their nationality if they want to play in oz or nz as would probably be the case for the Argentinans. So their players playing for Super 14s teams would actually be detrimental to Argentina's national game

The ARU in the only Super-14 union which actually prohibits foreign players from playing in their S14 teams and they are considering changing this after a bad showing in last seasons S14.

marco_polo · 26-09-2007 2:32pm

While a 6 Nations berth based in spain is the the easiest short term solution in the short term for the argies, it would not really be sustaiinable in the longer term.

The sustainable option in the long term is the inclusion of the Argentinians based from home in the tri nations. With the addition of a couple of Argentinina professional teams playing in the super 14. The major sticking point here is the opposition of the Argie RFU to professionalism in the domestic game. Until this changes I don't see how anything can happen about the latter scenario.

Why should the SANZAR unions allow their own super 14 teams to be packed with Argentinians to the detriment of their own player development? Remember these are not clubs like in England or France but are controlled by their respective unions. There would be an outcry here if the same thing were to happen to our provincial sides.

Argentina for Tri-Nations or Six-Nations?

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