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Could a road railer system work here

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  • 07-09-2013 9:40pm
    #1
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,431 ✭✭✭


    I remember coming across an Aussie road-railer system,where an artic lorry would back a trailer into a bogie on a rail siding,another bogie would hook on to the front,allowing either the next artic trailer or a loco to hook up, (think there's a Wikipedia link)
    Could it work on Irish lines ? Could it be done by a non cie firm ?
    I know it'd most suit bulk items so grain imports / coal/ petrol and diesel ,coming from a port and being dropped at the nearest siding/railyard to the customer...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #2
    Banjoxed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Banjoxed


    Markcheese wrote: »
    I remember coming across an Aussie road-railer system,where an artic lorry would back a trailer into a bogie on a rail siding,another bogie would hook on to the front,allowing either the next artic trailer or a loco to hook up, (think there's a Wikipedia link)
    Could it work on Irish lines ? Could it be done by a non cie firm ?
    I know it'd most suit bulk items so grain imports / coal/ petrol and diesel ,coming from a port and being dropped at the nearest siding/railyard to the customer...


    What you suggest is a very good idea but I am sure someone will be along to shoot it down, shortly :D


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    #3
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,475 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    Distance in Ireland makes it kinda pointless. Quicker and cheaper to just drive point to point, same as most freight.


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    #4
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    usually what sinks ideas like this loading gauge. resultant vehicle being too high for bridges etc

    There would also be a lot of shunting required for a short journey. by the time the train was marshalled a road truck would be there.

    There would also be a need to have a road journey at either end to complete the journey, even if you had a loading point at every station, inevitably some of these would be back in the direction the train came from.


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    #5
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,431 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    I suppose loading gauge is the crucial bit ... If you can't stick a standard size artic grain or oil trailer on it wouldn't work !!
    What I was thinking would be one end of the journey the trailer would stay on rail (port , oil terminal ect) , maybe the actual rail journey done at night dropping off trailers on outward journey and picking up "empties" on way back...
    Basically there are 300 ish artics a day passing my house from 1 plant mainly to munster and it got me thinking

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #6
    101sean
    Registered Users Posts: 2,884 ✭✭✭101sean


    BR tried it back in the 60's with roadrail trailers but it wasn't a success. Most countries that have tried it dropped the idea.

    Putting standard trailers of rail wagons won't work here because of the loading gauge.


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    #7
    CaptainFreedom
    Registered Users Posts: 194 ✭✭CaptainFreedom


    101sean wrote: »

    Putting standard trailers of rail wagons won't work here because of the loading gauge.

    Ours is a bit more generous than the UK but less than Americas. The previous argument about being a relatively small island would mean its not worth it though


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    #8
    metrovick001
    Registered Users Posts: 420 ✭✭metrovick001


    Distance in Ireland makes it kinda pointless. Quicker and cheaper to just drive point to point, same as most freight.

    Like Tara mines?????????


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    #9
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,431 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Do Irish rail move shipping containers ??
    Yeah I know Ireland is small for rail , and that this has never worked anywhere else they've tried it... I suppose i wondered how cross country transport could be more efficent (an artic driver can really only do 1 return cross country trip a day) if yr transporting diesel and petrol from Dublin port thats gotta be 4 or 5 hundred artic a day radiating out from Dublin port...
    I suppose most ports still have an oil depot so if it was worth avoiding road transport they'd ship it ...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #10
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,290 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    metrovick001 wrote: »
    Distance in Ireland makes it kinda pointless. Quicker and cheaper to just drive point to point, same as most freight.

    Like Tara mines?????????
    Full height trucks don't work with lead ore. Lead oxide is 8.30 g/cm³. A forty foot trailer, 8' wide and 9'6" high, would weight in the order of 200 tonnes. Now you want to put that on a truck trailer and then put that on a train and you want to put that train on the Malahide viaduct? :D

    Tara Mines works because (a) it is direct from the mine to the port with no trucks involved (b) lead ore is dense, meaning it has to be carried in low wagons to stay within axle loadings (c) it is in the planning permission for the mine that haulage is to be via train.


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    #11
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,475 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    metrovick001 wrote: »
    Distance in Ireland makes it kinda pointless. Quicker and cheaper to just drive point to point, same as most freight.

    Like Tara mines?????????

    see the bolded word.
    Tara mines or Ballina Liner or timber gets moved by rail but all this represents a tiny proportional of all the freight moved in Ireland.


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    #12
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,997 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    all freight that goes to a depot before being sorted to go to a customer should by law be transported by rail and by law the depots be connected to the rail network, only if its going straigh to the customer without the depot/sorting then a truck is fine unless that customer is beside the network, could be done with some imagination but no doubt the road hauliers would start burning things in the streets if that happened.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #13
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,431 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    end of the road wrote: »
    all freight that goes to a depot before being sorted to go to a customer should by law be transported by rail and by law the depots be connected to the rail network, only if its going straigh to the customer without the depot/sorting then a truck is fine unless that customer is beside the network, could be done with some imagination but no doubt the road hauliers would start burning things in the
    streets if that happened.
    Not sure I understand exactly what you want , but I'm pretty sure I don't want it ... Sounds a bit nationalised road freight of post war britain...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #14
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,997 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Markcheese wrote: »
    Not sure I understand exactly what you want , but I'm pretty sure I don't want it ... Sounds a bit nationalised road freight of post war britain...
    containers come from europe or the uk bound for dublin, their loaded straight off the ship onto specialised wagons to be taken to a depot for sorting, some other freight comes on a different ship but it isn't being sorted as its for the one customer who isn't on the rail network, that will be going by truck as its small and is going straight to a customer, does that help? its not going to happen anyway

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #15
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    end of the road wrote: »
    all freight that goes to a depot before being sorted to go to a customer should by law be transported by rail and by law the depots be connected to the rail network, only if its going straigh to the customer without the depot/sorting then a truck is fine unless that customer is beside the network, could be done with some imagination but no doubt the road hauliers would start burning things in the streets if that happened.

    what if there is no rail line to the customer? what effect would this have on prices?

    You can't bend reality just so there are more trains out there. Economics have dictated the way freight is carried in Ireland


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    #16
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,997 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    corktina wrote: »
    what if there is no rail line to the customer?
    i said this could only work where freight is going to a depot to be sorted and where the customer is near a rail line
    corktina wrote: »
    what effect would this have on prices?
    if ran right it would be comparable or cheeper then by road and faster, of course this is all in an ideal world
    corktina wrote: »
    Economics have dictated the way freight is carried in Ireland
    no, the fuel rebate for hauliers has, CIE can't compete, take away the rebate and watch prices rise.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #17
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    I think the rebate went a while back (could be wrong...)

    as for the rest, the volumes are so small and the tranship costs so high that I can't see how it can be cheaper by rail. It would certainly take a lot longer .

    We've been here before I guess.....


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    #18
    munchkin_utd
    Registered Users Posts: 7,847 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    nope, its good for drivers on long journeys where it makes strategic sense.
    i.e. the transalpine routes where drivers arrive just south of the german border after having their statutory break on a train whilst passing through Austria and can then hop in the truck and reach their destination in 1 go.

    In Ireland it wouldnt work that way especially and is even less viable seeing as trucks pay no tolls for the motorways/ national roads and now even have a diesel rebate coming down the line.
    The extra cost of the train couldnt be justified.
    And thats aside from any issues of low bridges.


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    #19
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    we need all freight to use the cheapest possible means, that keeps the prices we pay down. That means road transport in all but the longest or bulk hauls. Don't forget that rail is heavily subsidised, which is a cost to us all.


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    #20
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,290 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    corktina wrote: »
    I think the rebate went a while back (could be wrong...)
    There was some form of fuel rebate done for hauliers in the last year or so. The bus operators were giving out it didn't apply to them.
    munchkin_utd wrote: »
    nope, its good for drivers on long journeys where it makes strategic sense.
    i.e. the transalpine routes where drivers arrive just south of the german border after having their statutory break on a train whilst passing through Austria and can then hop in the truck and reach their destination in 1 go.
    That is mostly about keeping trucks to/from Germany off Swiss (and Austrian) roads.
    In Ireland it wouldnt work that way especially and is even less viable seeing as trucks pay no tolls for the motorways/ national roads and now even have a diesel rebate coming down the line.
    Trucks pay polls everywhere cars do, but yes, they don't pay as much as say, in France.


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    #21
    MGWR
    Closed Accounts Posts: 611 ✭✭✭MGWR


    corktina wrote: »
    we need all freight to use the cheapest possible means, that keeps the prices we pay down. That means road transport in all but the longest or bulk hauls. Don't forget that rail is heavily subsidised, which is a cost to us all.
    And roads are not subsidised, to an extremely heavy degree? There have been at leat four years in a row that news of county councils cutting back roads budgets have hit the news. From 2009 to this year, road funding has been cut to less than half, and that's for maintenance alone.

    Rail can sustain itself if the state got out of the way. That includes alignment. Doesn't have to be all bulk transport (which is the province of HGVs, BTW). But instead, the state is making a mad dash for turning railways into bike trails, which are of no economical use to anyone unless they are used en masse for commuting and tolls are collected for maintenance and upkeep (but you can never transport significant amounts of goods on them ever again).

    As far as the subject of this thread, though: Road railers are not as an important business as they once were, even in the countries that originated them. They are most useful for saving fuel over long distances. The major concern on Irish railways of course is loading gauge, especially vertical; but then again, vertical clearance on the road is troublesome as well. If there were a railway tunnel connecting Ireland with Britain, then viability for longer-distance roadrailer service would ensue...but that is certainly far in the future as far as things go.


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    #22
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    I'd say road pays for itself in VRT alone, never mind VAT , fuel duty and Motor Tax etc.


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    #23
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,431 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    MGWR , I doubt the current rail network could be run without government money,
    Private competitive operators might well sweat their assets a bit more but would still require subvention somewhere ...I dont think any of the disused lines being talked about for use as greenway would be realistically reopened within 20/ 30 years, most never will be ( with good reason)

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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