Are all irish people to blame for the abuse in the Catholic Church?

Squiggle · 27-11-2009 9:58am

No and most clergy are not to blame either.

Handsome Bob · 27-11-2009 10:13am

Not all Irish people are responsible, that goes without saying. However, it is time for the people of this country to step up and take responsibility of how we forward within this society. You want change? You want the catholic church's grip around such issues as education broken? Well then get up and take action, show this government that the majority of you demand change.

prinz · 27-11-2009 10:23am

jackthekipper wrote: »

Well said, don't the guards have alot to answer for?

If you read the report I think you'd find they have less to answer for than most other people involved; psychiatists, a certain 'institute', even parents and family members who refused to believe what their children were telling them at the time, and others who refused to follow up on the matter at the time. Yes some members of the gardaí acted appallingly, however in the majority of cases they discharged their obligations satisfactorily as confirmed by the Commission. Also if you read the biography of JC McQuaid you would read that back in the day two young gardaí began an investigation into abuse, and somewhat mysteriously were posted to opposite ends of the country and had their files confiscated. They weren't all bad.

Vasco · 27-11-2009 1:03pm

As terribly distressing as it is to read another report of the systemic abuse of children at the hands of the men of cloth, it reminds me of an horrific fact.

These men were all Irish. ..... Well the report was about the Dublin parish so of course these animals would be Irish, but.......

This country has been awfully betrayed by the clergy and if you look into the cases of child sexual abuse by the Catholic church abroad you will find that the Priests that carried out these heinous acts were practically all Irish.

In America, Canada, Australia and The U.K. all the most high profile pedophile Priests were/are all Irish nationals.

I find this fact extremely distressing.

It appears that one of Irelands biggest exports over the years has been pedophiles. In all the previous mentioned countries there has been uproar about the conduct of these animals and the church that protected them but nothing has been said about the fact that all these men were Irish!!!

Are these countries being polite and not wishing to offend Ireland?? To me, it is a huge elephant in the room.

I am ashamed.

27-11-2009 1:05pm

I'm not but I'm also not a Roman Catholic!

Wazdakka · 27-11-2009 1:07pm

Please can we stop with the church / religion / pedophile priests threads..
Been way too many of them recently...

There have got to be better forums to put them in than here.

[EDIT]
This post used to be in another thread..
I'm not just being a complete untolerant prick

Instant Karma · 27-11-2009 1:08pm

have you somehow missed the 3 or 4 other threads on this subject on this very page?

douglashyde · 27-11-2009 1:10pm

Ireland really has a lot of stressful things going on right now, flooding, economy, unemployment, overpaid yet still striking public sector, pedo priests, crime rate up.

I do sometimes wonder......... are we better of somewhere else.

genericguy · 27-11-2009 1:11pm

Wazdakka wrote: »

Please can we stop with the church / religion / pedophile priests threads..
Been way too many of them recently...

There have got to be better forums to put them in than here.

at the rate these revelations are occurring, i'd say we need a pedo forum.

Long Onion · 27-11-2009 1:11pm

Vasco wrote: »

As terribly distressing as it is to read another report of the systemic abuse of children at the hands of the men of cloth, it reminds me of an horrific fact.

These men were all Irish. ..... Well the report was about the Dublin parish so of course these animals would be Irish, but.......

This country has been awfully betrayed by the clergy and if you look into the cases of child sexual abuse by the Catholic church abroad you will find that the Priests that carried out these heinous acts were practically all Irish.

In America, Canada, Australia and The U.K. all the most high profile pedophile Priests were/are all Irish nationals.

I find this fact extremely distressing.

It appears that one of Irelands biggest exports over the years has been pedophiles. In all the previous mentioned countries there has been uproar about the conduct of these animals and the church that protected them but nothing has been said about the fact that all these men were Irish!!!

Are these countries being polite and not wishing to offend Ireland?? To me, it is a huge elephant in the room.

I am ashamed.

Frizl
/thread

Wazdakka · 27-11-2009 1:13pm

genericguy wrote: »

at the rate these revelations are occurring, i'd say we need a pedo forum.

There is one..

Link

Vasco · 27-11-2009 1:15pm

I am trying to discuss the link between these men all being Irish.

And considering what has being revealed recently I believe that this is a very topical subject.

Bobeagleburger · 27-11-2009 1:15pm

These threads are brain-washing

genericguy · 27-11-2009 1:16pm

Wazdakka wrote: »

There is one..

Link

Lord Trollington · 27-11-2009 1:19pm

Wazdakka wrote: »

Please can we stop with the church / religion / pedophile priests threads..
Been way too many of them recently...

There have got to be better forums to put them in than here.

There is nothing as bad as want to be moderators.
If the thread annoys you dont post in it.

The OP is pointing out the fact that most paedo abuse by a preist abroad has been carried out by an Irish priest.

Wazdakka · 27-11-2009 1:22pm

whycliff wrote: »

There is nothing as bad as want to be moderators.
If the thread annoys you dont post in it.

The OP is pointing out the fact that most paedo abuse by a preist abroad has been carried out by an Irish priest.

I'm not trying to be a moderator..
To be brutally honest I would rather fúck a belt sander than be a mod of AH.

What I am trying to do is get people to realise that just because they have a new point on a topic already being discussed in several different places it does not require making a new thread.

It's cluttering up the place with religious serious crap.
And AH is not necessary the best place for it..

amacachi · 27-11-2009 1:22pm

Not all but a lot of people are to blame collectively. It was widely known for years and years what went on in Churches, schools and in a lot worse places than that. All anyone did was turn a blind eye. Would I have done any differently? I doubt it.

Lord Trollington · 27-11-2009 1:46pm

Wazdakka wrote: »

I'm not trying to be a moderator..
To be brutally honest I would rather fúck a belt sander than be a mod of AH.

What I am trying to do is get people to realise that just because they have a new point on a topic already being discussed in several different places it does not require making a new thread.

It's cluttering up the place with religious serious crap.
And AH is not necessary the best place for it..

Should the moderators not decide that though??

I'm not really having a go at you but so many people come on particularly in AH and like to be a back seat mod, which grates at me big time.. Any how rant over.

Back to the Paedos.........

ArthurDent · 27-11-2009 1:47pm

MementoMori wrote: »

Sickeningly in a legal sense this still holds true today, although thankfully it seldom (if ever) occurs.

if only - in every primary school the Chairperson sits on the interview board. In many cases this is still the PP and every appointment must be approved by the patron (in denominational schools this is the Bishop)

bleg · 27-11-2009 1:47pm

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Not all Irish people are responsible, that goes without saying. However, it is time for the people of this country to step up and take responsibility of how we forward within this society. You want change? You want the catholic church's grip around such issues as education broken? Well then get up and take action, show this government that the majority of you demand change.

Show the government?

Show the church. Stop going to mass. Stop donating money. Do this to start. If you feel like going further then defect.

Biggins · 27-11-2009 1:49pm

bleg wrote: »

Show the government?

Show the church. Stop going to mass. Stop donating money. Do this to start. If you feel like going further then defect.

Already have done so years ago. :mad:

jackthekipper · 27-11-2009 3:14pm

prinz wrote: »

If you read the report I think you'd find they have less to answer for than most other people involved; psychiatists, a certain 'institute', even parents and family members who refused to believe what their children were telling them at the time, and others who refused to follow up on the matter at the time. Yes some members of the gardaí acted appallingly, however in the majority of cases they discharged their obligations satisfactorily as confirmed by the Commission. Also if you read the biography of JC McQuaid you would read that back in the day two young gardaí began an investigation into abuse, and somewhat mysteriously were posted to opposite ends of the country and had their files confiscated. They weren't all bad.

Apologies, it was a very lazy post as it was late. I should have said the people you mentioned. If alot of people don't go to prison for this the country is nothing other than an embarassment.

shqipshume · 27-11-2009 3:21pm

The abusers and the ones who knew about it and turned their backs on it are to blame.

And no :rolleyes:

getz · 27-11-2009 3:21pm

jackthekipper wrote: »

Apologies, it was a very lazy post as it was late. I should have said the people you mentioned. If alot of people don't go to prison for this the country is nothing other than an embarassment.

a lot of people may go to prison but not because of child abuse,it will be under the blasphemy law,

jackthekipper · 27-11-2009 3:35pm

getz wrote: »

a lot of people may go to prison but not because of child abuse,it will be under the blasphemy law,

When I saw the picture of Ahearne on the rte website for this story that's one of the first thigns I though of, priorities indeed.

Douche · 27-11-2009 3:45pm

Well I don't know about you but i certainly am not to blame - speak for yourself only OP.

Stones85 · 27-11-2009 5:39pm

May be a mute point; but is it not wrong to say it ALL was paedofilia? (sorry for **** spelling)..... in the case of young males, after a certain point is it not homosexual abuse?? Age wise.

dyl10 · 27-11-2009 7:37pm

drkpower wrote: »

I dont know if 'blame' is the right word but we need to accept that the attitude of the man on the street (denial; deference to the church; fear to confront their 'betters') helped to sustain what both the abusers and the conspirators/facilitators were doing. It is similar in a way to the acticities of Dr Neary in Drogheda; while he was clearly to blame, the attitude of deference of other hospital staff allowed his activities to continue.

Just like you are complicit in the slaughter of Iraqi and Afghan victims of war.

Handsome Bob · 27-11-2009 7:57pm

I felt absolutely sick and a huge sense of sadness reading The Irish Times coverage of the report today. One thing that caught my eye was what one Father Noel reynolds did to a young girl, violating her with a crucifix.

Another story involved how a priest blew the whistle to his superiors on his fellow priest Father Ivan Payne. Payne was removed from the parish. So the whistleblower was talking to his uncle who was a priest in Sutton. He was joyfully talking about a new priest in his parish and about how this priest was regularly bringing children on trips. The priest's name? Father Ivan Payne.

Just simply horrific stuff altogether, it boggles the mind. You know I'm not a religious man, but I really hope that there is a hell, just so sick bastards like these two men can get theirs for eternity.

dny123456 · 27-11-2009 8:02pm

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Just simply horrific stuff altogether, it boggles the mind. You know I'm not a religious man, but I really hope that there is a hell, just so sick bastards like these two men can get theirs for eternity.

But they went to confession, so theirs sins will be obsolved and they'll go to heaven. Isnt that the way the fairytale goes?

How anyone believes in religion, is beyond me.

Stones85 · 27-11-2009 9:23pm

dny123456 wrote: »

But they went to confession, so theirs sins will be obsolved and they'll go to heaven. Isnt that the way the fairytale goes?

How anyone believes in religion, is beyond me.

Confession is invalid if you are not truly sorry for what you have done, regardless of what the priest says. You can't fool God.

Perfect contrition is when you are truly sorry for offending God

Imperfect contrition is when you fear Gods justice and confess.

Considering they were serial abusers.... i doubt they fit into any of those categories. And if they do...... then may they spent millenia in purgatory.

FYI purgatory isn't a nice wee waiting room. From what I've read it's akin to a sadistic torture chamber where sinners go to be purified/punished for their sins before heaven.

Ickle Magoo · 27-11-2009 9:53pm

I think society has to take some responsibility.

What kind of society has "laundries" for its daughters or disbelieves its children when they try to tell of their abuses. What kind of society gives an organisation so much power that they can be corrupt for so long, have so many members complicit in cover up and silence and yet still gives that organisation their unwavering support. What kind of society is happy to let such an organisation retain power and influence, even when that organisation offers the barest coerced contrition re abuses to children perpetrated, hidden and covered up right up to present day. It's unbelievably sad and infuriating. These people were only able to corrupt because of the power society handed them - and if society continues to give such an organisation power & influence, there is no reason why we won't be reading yet another report in ten years time.

drkpower · 27-11-2009 9:54pm

dyl10 wrote: »

Just like you are complicit in the slaughter of Iraqi and Afghan victims of war.

Not really; the difference is that people did speak up, voice their opinions, march and lobby their politicians on those issues. So they tried; even if they werent succcesful.

As for me, well I tacitly supported Afghanistan and was torn on Iraq so yes, maybe I personally am complicit. But I am a bad man, a very bad man.....

irish_bob · 27-11-2009 10:13pm

Senna wrote: »

My uncle was a Garda in Galway during the early 60's, he was young and very approachable. A few of the local mothers approached him about abuse of their children by a local priest. He took the allegations very serious and began to follow up on them. He was told by the superintendent to forget about it, but he didn't.
He was removed from the force and put into a physiatric hospital because he refused to say the allegations were false.

I'm not sure how long he spent in the hospital or what they done to him, but he has never been the same since because of the treatment he got. He now lives in a specialised home and isn't in the best of mental health (although he can function independently and spends the day outside in town).

The garda knew but brushed everything under the carpet, and i hope those ****ers are held responsible for the cover-up.

the guards is not a place for free spirited mavericks , you keep your head down and toe the line if you want to either get promoted or just stay out of trouble , the orginisation has always been SMITHERS like in its reverence towards the more important people in society , lackeys to the powerfull

Son Of A Vidic · 27-11-2009 11:02pm

fergalr wrote: »

No. Of course not.

We Irish people aren't to blame for anything. Ever. Didn't you know that?
Its always someone elses fault.

It's just like those politicians we all hate that are messing up the economy.
How the hell did they get into power, anyway? Its not like anyone voted for them!

No - we the people of Ireland are never to blame for anything.

No matter how bad, or widespread, or systemic the failure is, it is always the sole and total fault of a small group of individuals, who we all used to like, but now hate.

Saying otherwise is like saying that the emperor has no clothes on - people are going to get angry!

- - - - -

Look - like many of you, I wasn't around in the time the abuse occurred. So, sure, its not reasonable to say I'm directly responsible.
And maybe its not even that helpful to spend all our energy trying to point the finger...

BUT:

In Ireland, whenever a scandal finally breaks, and shows us that there has been a SYSTEMIC FAILURE - everyone's first reaction is 'It wasn't me - its those guys fault!'
This has got to stop if we want things to improve.

No, we aren't all responsible for the abuse in the church. But very many of the people of Ireland bear some responsibility - much more of us than just the priests in question.

And that means we have to stand up and take responsibility for what happened, all of us, as a nation. That doesn't mean just the Taoiseach, or the Minisiter for Justice - those guys will be out of politics soon. Its all of us as citizens of Ireland.

You might be proud of your Irish heritage - the culture, maybe the music, the craic - well, good for you, but you can't be proud of that aspect of your Irishness and just gloss over our past failings as a nation.

Until we all stand up and pay attention each time we have a systemic failure, and until we all try - each of us, a little - to make sure it won't happen again, then we will continue to have such failures, and we will all continue to bear some share in the responsibility for them.

Its not good enough to just lay into the small group, and wash our hands of responsibility - we have to fix the system so that it doesn't happen again. We have to all engage with these problems, see what caused them, and try and make sure they don't reoccur.

This is true of our economic woes, our political system, our states relationship with the church and a range of other issues we'd rather all just blame on someone else.

- If you are angry with the way the country has been run, then inform yourself politically before you vote. Most of us haven't been doing this, and we all share the blame.

- Maybe you know the health service is messed up and people are dying unnecessarily. Its been falling apart this last while - we all sort of know it - but who is doing anything to fix it? Make it an election issue. Demand it be fixed. Stop caring more about the pothole outside our house, the street light, the change in car tax.

- If you are upset with the special treatment the church got from the state and the gardai in the past, then you should be thinking about whether you want the church in a privileged position in the Irish Constitution. That might seem a very abstract thing - but its the foundation of the rules of our state and it underpins a lot of the states behaviour. If we were a more secular state in the past, then the gardai might not have given the priests such special treatment.

Nobody gives a toss about this sort of thing though - we care a lot more about the price of a pint. Its for someone else to deal with - and as long as thats the case, then we are all a bit to blame the next thing something bad happens.

This is a democracy.
We get a vote.
We all bear some of the responsibility when things go wrong.

When we take ownership of the problems, and trying to fix them, then things might get better.

This rant is not directed at any of the posters in this thread... I'm not trying to lecture, just raise the issue... Its just something I feel sometimes when I see the response to these scandals.

There are so many people willing to be part of the lynch mob - but what we need is people that will nip the problems in the bud...

Very, very,very well said.

cock robin · 27-11-2009 11:06pm

OP that's like implying all Germans were responsible for the holocost or that all Muslims are terrorists. Of course we are not all to blame.

drkpower · 27-11-2009 11:23pm

cock robin wrote: »

OP that's like implying all Germans were responsible for the holocost or that all Muslims are terrorists. Of course we are not all to blame.

Well, tbh, I would certainly argue that all Germans living in and around 1936-1945 carry some blame for the holocaust, if it is accepted that there was a widespread knowledge that 'something' was going on yet they did nothing. Of course, very arguably, the detrimental consequences of speaking up were probably far more severe for the average German who sought to question the German policy at the time that the effect on the average Irishman who may have spoken up against the abuse perpetrated by some of the clergy.

cock robin · 27-11-2009 11:52pm

There was "something" going on in 1939-45 a world war. Most Germans were obviously aware that Jews vanished from every nook. But suggesting that they knew that these people were being exterminated is ludicrous. The consequences for speaking out against the abuses by the catholic church in Ireland were huge. Young boy's and girls now grown men and women who suffered at the hands of the church were only really listened to in the last few year's. It took in some case's thousands of complaints and a very expensive enquiry to unearth the truth. There will never be justice for some people as time has run out for them. There must be thousands who took their secret to the grave and were in pain all of there lives. Guilt by association is a crazy way to look at the situation.

Run_to_da_hills · 28-11-2009 12:04am

dny123456 wrote: »

How anyone believes in religion, is beyond me.

Religion is the WORST thing that has ever happened to this world; Countless Billions of souls have been doomed to Hell beause of false religion. :eek:

drkpower · 28-11-2009 3:17am

cock robin wrote: »

There was "something" going on in 1939-45 a world war. Most Germans were obviously aware that Jews vanished from every nook. But suggesting that they knew that these people were being exterminated is ludicrous. .

Hhmmm..?
Im not so sure how true that is; certainly towards the latter years of the war, I think it is accepted that the populus begun to realise that the Jews were being killed; the extent of it certainly would not have been appreciated. But the fact that Jews were 'vanishing' I would have thought was sufficient to cause concern, no?

cock robin wrote: »

The consequences for speaking out against the abuses by the catholic church in Ireland were huge. .

Sure. But do you really think that the consequences for aGerman speaking up against the Nazis were any less 'huge' than an Irishman standing up against the Church......?! Come on.

focusfan · 28-11-2009 11:38am

bleg wrote: »

Show the government?

Show the church. Stop going to mass. Stop donating money. Do this to start. If you feel like going further then defect.

+ 1 stop supporting an organisation that supports paedophilia

focusfan · 28-11-2009 11:40am

douglashyde wrote: »

Ireland really has a lot of stressful things going on right now, flooding, economy, unemployment, overpaid yet still striking public sector, pedo priests, crime rate up.

I do sometimes wonder......... are we better of somewhere else.

No more honesty and less arrogance is what we need

kpbdublin · 28-11-2009 11:49am

Of course not. There were always a lot of people who never joined the cult.

focusfan · 28-11-2009 11:53am

Vasco wrote: »

As terribly distressing as it is to read another report of the systemic abuse of children at the hands of the men of cloth, it reminds me of an horrific fact.

These men were all Irish. ..... Well the report was about the Dublin parish so of course these animals would be Irish, but.......

This country has been awfully betrayed by the clergy and if you look into the cases of child sexual abuse by the Catholic church abroad you will find that the Priests that carried out these heinous acts were practically all Irish.

In America, Canada, Australia and The U.K. all the most high profile pedophile Priests were/are all Irish nationals.

I find this fact extremely distressing.

It appears that one of Irelands biggest exports over the years has been pedophiles. In all the previous mentioned countries there has been uproar about the conduct of these animals and the church that protected them but nothing has been said about the fact that all these men were Irish!!!

Are these countries being polite and not wishing to offend Ireland?? To me, it is a huge elephant in the room.

I am ashamed.

Now at last some one has got to the heart of the issue. The fact that Ireland has the worst child abuse record in Western Euorpe. A fact that the majority of people in this country and this forum are in denial about. When confronted with the revelations it is discussed as if the perpetrators are alien no there are Irish people who joined an organisation that enables them to feed their sickness. Its the dark side of the Irish psyche. The ability to gain trust of an individual and violate it.

Are all irish people to blame for the abuse in the Catholic Church?

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