Are all irish people to blame for the abuse in the Catholic Church?

Spacedog · 26-11-2009 11:30pm

OK, just so i understand... If the Irish people are not responsible for the abuse in the Catholic Church, then why the fu*k are we as tax payers, paying for the entire liability limitation insurance claim of the Catholic Church? :mad:

I'm looking for an answer here.

drkpower · 26-11-2009 11:31pm

ddef wrote: »

That has to be one of the most ignorant questions I have ever read on boards.
I am Irish, and no, I am not to blame for some sick minded freak abusing the trust he was given with this countries children.

Do you (or the public generally) not have any responsibility for entrusting these people with the education/housing/training of the nation's children with no particular need for any real oversight? Or for not doing more when so many people had suspicions, at least?

stovelid · 26-11-2009 11:34pm

drkpower wrote: »

And Jedward.

Jedward. Time machine. Letterfrack 1950.

Admit it. It's tempting.

CliffHuxtabel · 26-11-2009 11:35pm

Im in my mid 20s. I wasnt around during the era in which the abuse took place.

While I have total sympathy for the poor kids who were abused, I wasnt to blame.

dyl10 · 26-11-2009 11:35pm

Nope

Local-womanizer · 26-11-2009 11:43pm

drkpower wrote: »

Saying that the public generally are somehow at fault does not in any way alter the responsibility of the abuser or in any way provide an excuse for them. They should be punished as severely as is possible.

But to stop this type of thing from occurring again, we cant just lock up the current abusers. We need to look at how it was allowed to happen and how it took so long to stop. The Primetime sub-heading is very apt; the 'denial and the deceit':the abusers and facilitators were engaged in a criminal deceit - but the majority of the public were engaged in a wholesale denial.

Your right,but to say the public were to blame when everytime a case was brought forward by a member of the public,it was either dismissed by the bishops and Gardai,or the priest was moved to another parish. People stood up against this mess again and again and again and again they were ignored. I would think it would be safe to say that every church-goer is absolutly disgusted by the recent reports over the last few years. To say they are to blame is an insult to be honest.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 26-11-2009 11:46pm

Gonna disagree with most and say the OP has a good point.

Think of all the parents who put their own daughters in magdalane homes, they seem exactly the kind of people who's turn a blind eye to child abuse.

My name is URL · 26-11-2009 11:53pm

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Gonna disagree with most and say the OP has a good point.

Think of all the parents who put their own daughters in magdalane homes, they seem exactly the kind of people who's turn a blind eye to child abuse.

Well considering that people decided to send their kids there simply to fall in line with what was the acceptable thing to do at the time, then you're right

again it boils down to the church though, because they were the ones that instilled guilt in people for having children out of wedlock etc

drkpower · 26-11-2009 11:54pm

Local-womanizer wrote: »

To say they are to blame is an insult to be honest.

I dont know if 'blame' is the right word but we need to accept that the attitude of the man on the street (denial; deference to the church; fear to confront their 'betters') helped to sustain what both the abusers and the conspirators/facilitators were doing. It is similar in a way to the acticities of Dr Neary in Drogheda; while he was clearly to blame, the attitude of deference of other hospital staff allowed his activities to continue.

MementoMori · 27-11-2009 12:03am

Follow the link below to read the report
(I'd almost say it's everyone's civic duty to read this ; I know it's not the most pleasant reading matter and it's easy to write this off as more of the same, but this seems almost part of the Catholic Church's defence at this stage.

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/PB09000504

Once again the hierarchy of the Catholic Church confirming what a disgusting reprensible organisation they are. As an example of utter evil in this country, I don't think there's been any organisation which comes close.

Some people think this is historical fact - the report covers the period from 1975 to 2004 which is a pretty recent period of time.

it is abundantly clear, from the Commission‟s investigation as revealed in the cases of the 46 priests in the representative sample (see Chapters 11 to 57), that child sexual abuse by clerics was widespread throughout the period under review.

Of the 46 priests examined, 11 pleaded guilty to or were convicted in the criminal courts of sexual assaults on children.

1.14 The volume of revelations of child sexual abuse by clergy over the past 35 years or so has been described by a Church source as a “tsunami” of sexual abuse. He went on to describe the “tsunami” as “an earthquake deep beneath the surface hidden from view”. The clear implication of that statement is that the Church, in common with the general public, was somehow taken by surprise by the volume of the revelations. Officials of the Archdiocese of Dublin and other Church authorities have repeatedly claimed to have been, prior to the late 1990s, on „a learning curve‟ in relation to the matter. Having completed its investigation, the Commission does not accept the truth of such claims and assertions.

1.15 The Dublin Archdiocese‟s pre-occupations in dealing with cases of child sexual abuse, at least until the mid 1990s, were the maintenance of secrecy, the avoidance of scandal, the protection of the reputation of the Church, and the preservation of its assets. All other considerations, including the welfare of children and justice for victims, were subordinated to these priorities. The Archdiocese did not implement its own canon law rules and did its best to avoid any application of the law of the State.

Piste · 27-11-2009 12:04am

I accept absolutely no liability for how people acted, and I think many people my age (18) feel the same.

Dudess · 27-11-2009 12:08am

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Gonna disagree with most and say the OP has a good point.

Think of all the parents who put their own daughters in magdalane homes, they seem exactly the kind of people who's turn a blind eye to child abuse.

Still don't get how that renders "all Irish people to blame".

deadhead13 · 27-11-2009 12:10am

CliffHuxtabel wrote: »

Im in my mid 20s. I wasnt around during era in which the abuse took place.

While I have total sympathy for the poor kids who were abused, I wasnt to blame.

The report deals with incidents right up to 2004.

drkpower · 27-11-2009 12:11am

Piste wrote: »

I accept absolutely no liability for how people acted, and I think many people my age (18) feel the same.

I dont think anyone is suggesting that everyone is to blame, certainly not those who have just reached the age of majority/responsibility. But the question is whether the large numbers of people who did not do anything actively to abuse/conspire but who did turn a blind eye or through fear or whatever, ignored their suspicions rarther than acting on them have any responsibility (albeit small) to bear.

bleg · 27-11-2009 12:13am

This thread is a joke.

KindOfIrish · 27-11-2009 12:13am

I moved to Ireland 8 years ago. After living here for 3-4 years I already new many people who was sexually abused as a child and not just by priests. I know people who were sexually abused by family members, by doctors etc.; I know those who reported rape to Gardai. GP, social services etc. and no action was taken (it happened in 80’s and early 90’s). I have found out that there is an organization “One in Four” and what does it mean.
I have spoken to few Irish Americans about the matter and they say it always has been here.
And when I hear that just the church to blame, it makes me sick. I am sure, 99% of Irish people know what has been going on in this country for decades and did nothing.
I wonder why?
So, whom to blame?

Nevyn · 27-11-2009 12:19am

1 in 4 was set up to help people who have been sexually abused and it's name that as it has happened to 1 in 4 people according to the statics.

http://www.oneinfour.org/about/

One in Four Ireland is a registered charity (CHY 15289) with offices in Dublin, Ireland.

Our Purpose

One in Four offers a voice to and support for women and men who have experienced sexual abuse and/or sexual violence and also to their family and friends.

In Ireland research has shown that one in four children (27%) will experience sexual abuse before the age of 18 (view source of this statisitc). Society has thus far been unwilling to face up to the deep rooted nature of this problem or the sheer scale of the long term damage it leaves in its wake.

The Murphy report took a sample of 46 priest, 46 is not the total number of abusers in the dublin dioces alone between 1975 to 2004, during which the archbisop was the patron of all the catholic shools in dublin.

There are 3,200 aprox primary schools in the country and the catholic church own's and is partron to 3,000 of them, the same church that protected pedophiles, moved them from parish to parish did not report to the garda and refused to open thier files for years.

MementoMori · 27-11-2009 12:33am

Thaedydal wrote: »

The Murphy report took a sample of 46 priest, 46 is not the total number of abusers in the dublin dioces alone between 1975 to 2004, during which the archbisop was the patron of all the catholic shools in dublin.

There are 3,200 aprox primary schools in the country and the catholic church own's and is partron to 3,000 of them, the same church that protected pedophiles, moved them from parish to parish did not report to the garda and refused to open thier files for years.

From the report

1.109 Of the 46 priests (which, of course, is a representative sample of 102 within remit) examined for this report, the Commission has identified approximately 320 people who complained of child sexual abuse during the period 1975 - 2004. A further 130 complaints against priests operating under the aegis of the Dublin Archdiocese have been made since May 2004 (the end date of the Commission's remit).

Anyone else see something truely vomitous as regards the main activities of the Archdiocese ?

3.5 The Archdiocese engages in many activities. Its main activities are the running of parishes, the patronage of 477 national schools, the provision of services to these schools and to 189 post-primary schools, and the provision of services through its Catholic Youth Care programme and its Crosscare programme, which provides social services for less well-off people. Its many other activities include agencies to assist marriage and families and chaplaincy services to prisons, the defence forces and almost 50 hospitals. The Archbishop is involved in appointing members of the boards of a number of hospitals.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 27-11-2009 12:40am

Dudess wrote: »

Still don't get how that renders "all Irish people to blame".

I think what the poster meant by that assertion was that people around at that time had an idea of what was going on and failed to act, therefore being somewhat to blame.

baalthor · 27-11-2009 12:42am

drkpower wrote: »

Sadly, this is the key and its why so many are to blame. The majority knew, possibly not the full extent, but they knew. For anyone of a certain age, we all remember the jokes that would be told about the dodgy christian brother at school - that didnt come from nothing; there was a widespread knowledge that 'something' was going on and the average Joe wasnt strong enough to make an issue of it.

I wouldn't necessarily use the word blame but as you've said, people knew that "stuff" was happening.

My parents are pensioners now but they have recollections of various incidents from the 60s/70s

In a rural town where one of them grew up, the parish priest announced during Mass one day that Fr. xxx was "unwell" and was going away for treatment. But most people in town knew why he was "unwell".

Another priest in a rural parish was well known for his inappropriate advances towards young girls and women. Many parishioners actually thought this was funny.

Most people didn't speak out for various reasons:

1. Obviously priests and the church had huge status and power in the community. Along with this, people believed that the priest was God's representative and had been chosen by God to do this job - the "vocation" concept. Therefore even if the priest did something wrong, people still thought: "well God still wanted him to be a priest"

2. They were hazy on the details. Frank and detailed discussion of sexual acts didn't really occur in Ireland during this time. So people might use euphemisms like "interfered with" or "made a tear after".
Devout Catholics believed that it was a sin to think about sex never mind discuss it.
And for many believers, the idea that the people who told you that you would go to hell for looking at a woman's chest could themselves be guilty of engaging in sexual acts was just unthinkable.

3. They didn't want to cause "scandal" for the church.
Exposing priests as abusers would cause embarrassment for the church and the laity and possibly invite attacks from non-Catholics. So better to let the Church handle the issue internally.

4. They felt that because priests were doing God's work and had given up a normal life to do so, they deserved more sympathy and understanding when they did something wrong.
So any transgression would be seen as a failing of the priest that could be overcome by prayer and treatment. After all, the priest used prayer and his vocation to overcome his desire for women so presumably he could eventually overcome other desires as well.

5. Abuse of children wasn't taken as seriously in those days. "Interfering" with kids was often seen as a "failing" rather than a crime.

And of course on a practical level, the Church could exercise immense power.
If you were (are) a teacher the local PP could determine whether you got a job or not.
People were afraid that if they got in the Church's bad books,they would be refused the last rites on their death-bed.
Others actually had a superstitious fear that if they went against the clergy something "bad" would happen to them or their families.

MementoMori · 27-11-2009 12:47am

baalthor wrote: »

And of course on a practical level, the Church could exercise immense power.
If you were (are) a teacher the local PP could determine whether you got a job or not.

Sickeningly in a legal sense this still holds true today, although thankfully it seldom (if ever) occurs.

Chorcai · 27-11-2009 1:35am

1.113 The Commission has no doubt that clerical child sexual abuse was covered up by the Archdiocese of Dublin and other Church authorities over much of the period covered by the Commission‟s remit. The structures and rules of the Catholic Church facilitated that cover-up. The State authorities facilitated the cover up by not fulfilling their responsibilities to ensure that the law was applied equally to all and allowing the Church institutions to be beyond the reach of the normal law enforcement processes. The welfare of children, which should have been the first priority, was not even a factor to be considered in the early stages. Instead the focus was on the avoidance of scandal and the preservation of the good name, status and assets of the institution and of what the institution regarded as its most important members – the priests.

Documents held by Rome 2.23 The Commission wrote to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF) in Rome in September 2006 asking for information on the promulgation of the document Crimen Sollicitationis (see Chapter 4) as well as information on reports of clerical child sexual abuse which had been conveyed to the Congregation by the Archdiocese of Dublin in the period covered by the Commission. The CDF did not reply. However, it did contact the Department of Foreign Affairs stating that the Commission had not gone through appropriate diplomatic channels. The Commission is a body independent of government and does not consider it appropriate for it to use diplomatic channels.

2.24 The Commission wrote to the Papal Nuncio in February 2007 requesting that he forward to the Commission all documents in his possession relevant to the Commission‟s terms of reference, “which documents have not already been produced or will not be produced by Archbishop Martin”. The letter further requested the Papal Nuncio, if he had no such documentation, to confirm this. No reply was received. The Commission does not have the power to compel the production of documents by the Papal Nuncio or the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. The Commission again wrote to the Papal Nuncio in 2009 enclosing extracts from the draft report which referred to him and his office as it was required to do. Again, no reply was received.

says it all really makes you sick to think they are above the law.

27-11-2009 1:41am

CliffHuxtabel wrote: »

Im in my mid 20s. I wasnt around during era in which the abuse took place.

While I have total sympathy for the poor kids who were abused, I wasnt to blame.

Yes it's perfectly OK to say that. You should never need to be made to feel guilty for things that happened before your time.

My mother "escaped" from Ireland in the late 1950's (along with many thousands of others) She has never spoken of any abuse of this nature, I shall never know is she was even aware of it.

Run_to_da_hills · 27-11-2009 1:50am

No.

CliffHuxtabel · 27-11-2009 2:19am

deadhead13 wrote: »

The report deals with incidents right up to 2004.

Im surprised by that but the church stopped being a presence in my life long before 2004.

27-11-2009 2:25am

CliffHuxtabel wrote: »

Im surprised by that but the church stopped being a presence in my life long before 2004.

tbh.. it's quite frightening that it has been reported as happening that recently, my children are at school age right now!, nothing hapening to the best of my knowledge, but still worrying!

K-9 · 27-11-2009 2:41am

baalthor wrote: »

I wouldn't necessarily use the word blame but as you've said, people knew that "stuff" was happening.

My parents are pensioners now but they have recollections of various incidents from the 60s/70s

In a rural town where one of them grew up, the parish priest announced during Mass one day that Fr. xxx was "unwell" and was going away for treatment. But most people in town knew why he was "unwell".

Another priest in a rural parish was well known for his inappropriate advances towards young girls and women. Many parishioners actually thought this was funny.

Most people didn't speak out for various reasons:

1. Obviously priests and the church had huge status and power in the community. Along with this, people believed that the priest was God's representative and had been chosen by God to do this job - the "vocation" concept. Therefore even if the priest did something wrong, people still thought: "well God still wanted him to be a priest"

2. They were hazy on the details. Frank and detailed discussion of sexual acts didn't really occur in Ireland during this time. So people might use euphemisms like "interfered with" or "made a tear after".
Devout Catholics believed that it was a sin to think about sex never mind discuss it.
And for many believers, the idea that the people who told you that you would go to hell for looking at a woman's chest could themselves be guilty of engaging in sexual acts was just unthinkable.

3. They didn't want to cause "scandal" for the church.
Exposing priests as abusers would cause embarrassment for the church and the laity and possibly invite attacks from non-Catholics. So better to let the Church handle the issue internally.

4. They felt that because priests were doing God's work and had given up a normal life to do so, they deserved more sympathy and understanding when they did something wrong.
So any transgression would be seen as a failing of the priest that could be overcome by prayer and treatment. After all, the priest used prayer and his vocation to overcome his desire for women so presumably he could eventually overcome other desires as well.

5. Abuse of children wasn't taken as seriously in those days. "Interfering" with kids was often seen as a "failing" rather than a crime.

And of course on a practical level, the Church could exercise immense power.
If you were (are) a teacher the local PP could determine whether you got a job or not.
People were afraid that if they got in the Church's bad books,they would be refused the last rites on their death-bed.
Others actually had a superstitious fear that if they went against the clergy something "bad" would happen to them or their families.

Not a bad summary.

People where in fear and tbh, a bit thick. The Church was your better and that was it.

Similar, but vastly different thing happened recently with Banks.

27-11-2009 2:49am

K-9 wrote: »

Not a bad summary.

People where in fear and tbh, a bit thick. The Church was your better and that was it.

Similar, but vastly different thing happened recently with Banks.

In these days of free and easily obteinable information, it is easy to look back and think of "how simple those people were" but never forget that they did NOT have access to what we have access to now.

As for the banks, well the info was there (along with the warning signs, but not read) perhaps the expression "a bit thick" is appropiate.

PFJSplitter · 27-11-2009 2:53am

Spacedog wrote: »

...and had no control over what so ever.

Those responsible are: *looks in the mirror*

How very shallow.

K-9 · 27-11-2009 2:58am

Deleted User wrote: »

In these days of free and easily obteinable information, it is easy to look back and think of "how simple those people were" but never forget that they did NOT have access to what we have access to now.

As for the banks, well the info was there (along with the warning signs, but not read) perhaps the expression "a bit thick" is appropiate.

Property became the new religion.

Anyway, they are still covering up what happened.. They still don't get it!

Four-Too · 27-11-2009 3:01am

All those who knew it was going on and did nothing, all those, both men and women over (maybe) 18 years of age are all to blame. Collective responsibility. People probably said, "it has nothing to do with me". But that is wrong, if even they saved one innocent life from abuse then surely the Lord would have been pleased with such a person, very pleased.

27-11-2009 3:02am

The old mantra, hide it untll it is unhideable!

CliffHuxtabel · 27-11-2009 3:05am

Four-Too wrote: »

All those who knew it was going on and did nothing, all those, both men and women over (maybe) 18 years of age are all to blame. Collective responsibility. People probably said, "it has nothing to do with me". But that is wrong, if even they saved one innocent life from abuse then surely the Lord would have been pleased with such a person, very pleased.

being over 18 years old, how exactly could I have changed things?

27-11-2009 3:08am

Four-Too wrote: »

All those who knew it was going on and did nothing, all those, both men and women over (maybe) 18 years of age are all to blame. Collective responsibility. People probably said, "it has nothing to do with me". But that is wrong, if even they saved one innocent life from abuse then surely the Lord would have been pleased with such a person, very pleased.

Ireland in 2009 is a very diffenent place to that of the 1970's or earlier.
As a suggestion, just read any book written by authers of the mid 20th century (angelas ashes, frank McCourt, springs to mind) it may give you an insight into Ireland "of the priests"

dustyrip · 27-11-2009 3:08am

I haven't gone to mass in around 12 years(am 23). I am numb to what has come out in the news. I know its awful what has happened but its as if these revelations are to be expected given what has happened in the past. I am not 'shocked' by this, as when you think of the Irish priests this is the first thing that comes to your mind. If I ever have kids in the future I will be keeping them away from priests/swimming Instructors etc..Its a disgrace, I don't know how it went on for so long. They should let Catholic priests marry, might keep them away from thinking about kids?

27-11-2009 3:13am

dustyrip wrote: »

I haven't gone to mass in around 12 years(am 23). I am numb to what has come out in the news. I know its awful what has happened but its as if these revelations are to be expected given what has happened in the past. I am not 'shocked' by this, as when you think of the Irish priests this is the first thing that comes to your mind. If I ever have kids in the future I will be keeping them away from priests/swimming Instructors etc..Its a disgrace, I don't know how it went on for so long. They should let Catholic priests marry, might keep them away from thinking about kids?

Don't tar all with the brush!

This thread is about abusive priests.. Swimming instructors don't factor into it at all!

waitinforatrain · 27-11-2009 3:36am

nlgbbbblth wrote: »

There's your answer.

Want to blame someone?

Blame the abusers and no one else.

Might seem obvious but it's the right answer. Ever heard of personal responsibility?

Bull****. there's a clear connection between the catholic church and abuse, it's not just some random people acting outside the scope of the insttution. This rotten institution sought to cover up the abuse for their own purposes, ALL THE WAY TO THE TOP.

If abuse to such an extent occured in another institution, say, a private company, are you telling me that the company would be in no way responsible or liable?

seraphimvc · 27-11-2009 3:38am

i jus get home from Church bar at Henry's street.:pac: it is awesome.

27-11-2009 3:44am

seraphimvc wrote: »

i jus get home from Church bar at Henry's street.:pac: it is awesome.

10 heil marys before breakfast!!!

dustyrip · 27-11-2009 3:46am

Deleted User wrote: »

10 heil marys before breakfast!!!

Is that the place with the really hard toilets to find. The Grand Central on O'Connell street is impossible also!!

seraphimvc · 27-11-2009 3:49am

dustyrip wrote: »

Is that the place with the really hard toilets to find. The Grand Central on O'Connell street is impossible also!!

yup:D awesome toilet tho - you can walk straight into wimmin's toilet from the gents.

no,i didnt try that.

jackthekipper · 27-11-2009 3:56am

Why should we, as the great Bertie said "it's a grand wee country"

dustyrip · 27-11-2009 3:57am

seraphimvc wrote: »

yup:D awesome toilet tho - you can walk straight into wimmin's toilet from the gents.

no,i didnt try that.

The Church has the reputation as the hardest toilets to find in Dublin. I have more problems in the Grand Central though, they should have an arrow pointing like in IKEA.

Four-Too · 27-11-2009 4:01am

CliffHuxtabel wrote: »

being over 18 years old, how exactly could I have changed things?

By taking personal responsibility for what was happening, by not being in denial of truth if the evil that was happening, by thinking outside the small box that was Irish Catholic society at that time, by uniting with others, by refusing to have a fear of death or ridicule, fear can be used to control any society, once the population is no longer afraid the powers that be lose their control, in this case it was the church.

Son Of A Vidic · 27-11-2009 4:07am

Me to blame - no way, however there may be a point here. Older generations may have been guilty of 'bowing the knee' and 'dipping the hat' to men who deserved nothing more than a prison cell.

jackthekipper · 27-11-2009 4:39am

medicman2009 wrote: »

Me to blame - no way, however there may be a point here. Older generations may have been guilty of 'bowing the knee' and 'dipping the hat' to men who deserved nothing more than a prison cell.

Well said, don't the guards have alot to answer for?

fergalr · 27-11-2009 4:47am

No. Of course not.

We Irish people aren't to blame for anything. Ever. Didn't you know that?
Its always someone elses fault.

It's just like those politicians we all hate that are messing up the economy.
How the hell did they get into power, anyway? Its not like anyone voted for them!

No - we the people of Ireland are never to blame for anything.

No matter how bad, or widespread, or systemic the failure is, it is always the sole and total fault of a small group of individuals, who we all used to like, but now hate.

Saying otherwise is like saying that the emperor has no clothes on - people are going to get angry!

- - - - -

Look - like many of you, I wasn't around in the time the abuse occurred. So, sure, its not reasonable to say I'm directly responsible.
And maybe its not even that helpful to spend all our energy trying to point the finger...

BUT:

In Ireland, whenever a scandal finally breaks, and shows us that there has been a SYSTEMIC FAILURE - everyone's first reaction is 'It wasn't me - its those guys fault!'
This has got to stop if we want things to improve.

No, we aren't all responsible for the abuse in the church. But very many of the people of Ireland bear some responsibility - much more of us than just the priests in question.

And that means we have to stand up and take responsibility for what happened, all of us, as a nation. That doesn't mean just the Taoiseach, or the Minisiter for Justice - those guys will be out of politics soon. Its all of us as citizens of Ireland.

You might be proud of your Irish heritage - the culture, maybe the music, the craic - well, good for you, but you can't be proud of that aspect of your Irishness and just gloss over our past failings as a nation.

Until we all stand up and pay attention each time we have a systemic failure, and until we all try - each of us, a little - to make sure it won't happen again, then we will continue to have such failures, and we will all continue to bear some share in the responsibility for them.

Its not good enough to just lay into the small group, and wash our hands of responsibility - we have to fix the system so that it doesn't happen again. We have to all engage with these problems, see what caused them, and try and make sure they don't reoccur.

This is true of our economic woes, our political system, our states relationship with the church and a range of other issues we'd rather all just blame on someone else.

- If you are angry with the way the country has been run, then inform yourself politically before you vote. Most of us haven't been doing this, and we all share the blame.

- Maybe you know the health service is messed up and people are dying unnecessarily. Its been falling apart this last while - we all sort of know it - but who is doing anything to fix it? Make it an election issue. Demand it be fixed. Stop caring more about the pothole outside our house, the street light, the change in car tax.

- If you are upset with the special treatment the church got from the state and the gardai in the past, then you should be thinking about whether you want the church in a privileged position in the Irish Constitution. That might seem a very abstract thing - but its the foundation of the rules of our state and it underpins a lot of the states behaviour. If we were a more secular state in the past, then the gardai might not have given the priests such special treatment.

Nobody gives a toss about this sort of thing though - we care a lot more about the price of a pint. Its for someone else to deal with - and as long as thats the case, then we are all a bit to blame the next thing something bad happens.

This is a democracy.
We get a vote.
We all bear some of the responsibility when things go wrong.

When we take ownership of the problems, and trying to fix them, then things might get better.

This rant is not directed at any of the posters in this thread... I'm not trying to lecture, just raise the issue... Its just something I feel sometimes when I see the response to these scandals.

There are so many people willing to be part of the lynch mob - but what we need is people that will nip the problems in the bud...

jackthekipper · 27-11-2009 5:02am

fergalr wrote: »

No. Of course not.

We Irish people aren't to blame for anything. Ever. Didn't you know that?
Its always someone elses fault.

It's just like those politicians we all hate that are messing up the economy.
How the hell did they get into power, anyway? Its not like anyone voted for them!

No - we the people of Ireland are never to blame for anything.

No matter how bad, or widespread, or systemic the failure is, it is always the sole and total fault of a small group of individuals, who we all used to like, but now hate.

Saying otherwise is like saying that the emperor has no clothes on - people are going to get angry!

- - - - -

Look - like many of you, I wasn't around in the time the abuse occurred. So, sure, its not reasonable to say I'm directly responsible.
And maybe its not even that helpful to spend all our energy trying to point the finger...

BUT:

In Ireland, whenever a scandal finally breaks, and shows us that there has been a SYSTEMIC FAILURE - everyone's first reaction is 'It wasn't me - its those guys fault!'
This has got to stop if we want things to improve.

No, we aren't all responsible for the abuse in the church. But very many of the people of Ireland bear some responsibility - much more of us than just the priests in question.

And that means we have to stand up and take responsibility for what happened, all of us, as a nation. That doesn't mean just the Taoiseach, or the Minisiter for Justice - those guys will be out of politics soon. Its all of us as citizens of Ireland.

You might be proud of your Irish heritage - the culture, maybe the music, the craic - well, good for you, but you can't be proud of that aspect of your Irishness and just gloss over our past failings as a nation.

Until we all stand up and pay attention each time we have a systemic failure, and until we all try - each of us, a little - to make sure it won't happen again, then we will continue to have such failures, and we will all continue to bear some share in the responsibility for them.

Its not good enough to just lay into the small group, and wash our hands of responsibility - we have to fix the system so that it doesn't happen again. We have to all engage with these problems, see what caused them, and try and make sure they don't reoccur.

This is true of our economic woes, our political system, our states relationship with the church and a range of other issues we'd rather all just blame on someone else.

- If you are angry with the way the country has been run, then inform yourself politically before you vote. Most of us haven't been doing this, and we all share the blame.

- Maybe you know the health service is messed up and people are dying unnecessarily. Its been falling apart this last while - we all sort of know it - but who is doing anything to fix it? Make it an election issue. Demand it be fixed. Stop caring more about the pothole outside our house, the street light, the change in car tax.

- If you are upset with the special treatment the church got from the state and the gardai in the past, then you should be thinking about whether you want the church in a privileged position in the Irish Constitution. That might seem a very abstract thing - but its the foundation of the rules of our state and it underpins a lot of the states behaviour. If we were a more secular state in the past, then the gardai might not have given the priests such special treatment.

Nobody gives a toss about this sort of thing though - we care a lot more about the price of a pint. Its for someone else to deal with - and as long as thats the case, then we are all a bit to blame the next thing something bad happens.

This is a democracy.
We get a vote.
We all bear some of the responsibility when things go wrong.

When we take ownership of the problems, and trying to fix them, then things might get better.

This rant is not directed at any of the posters in this thread... I'm not trying to lecture, just raise the issue... Its just something I feel sometimes when I see the response to these scandals.

There are so many people willing to be part of the lynch mob - but what we need is people that will nip the problems in the bud...

+1

Morzadec · 27-11-2009 5:33am

Taking the question very literally then I would have to agree with the no's. I'm 23 and I don't feel in any way responsible. But that's not to say that the poster doesn't raise a valid point and the thread doesn't merit discussion as some have suggested.

There was an awful lot of complicity for this to be allowed to happen and state services were involved in this. I think that the State should apologise to the victims of this abuse. Brown and the Australian PM are apologising to the young children sent to Australia from Britain who were subsequently abused or mistreated. It's not going to do anything practical, but I feel it is an apology that is owed to them, and it would be an important symbolic gesture.

It's shocking stuff to read. As a young guy from the Dublin suburbs with absolutely no connection with the Catholic Church or any religion for all my life, and very little knowledge of rural life at this time it's so hard to imagine the type of community described by Baalthor a few pages back. It's completely alien to me. None of my older relatives are Irish, so this is something that I really have no personal history or connection with. It's a part of our history have little knowledge of and no experience of.

In this respect I feel it's hard to judge others unless you were in their shoes. From what other posters have described it might've been very difficult for many to do anything at all, especially women (they were very patriarcal societies I assume?). What about that poster's father whose life was destroyed when he reported something and wouldn't allow it to be swept under the carpet, and was sent to a psycriatric hospital for questioning the system? I was shocked to hear that, it's unbelievably tragic but it's also unbelievable how much power these people had. Many people's livlihoods could have been put at risk by questioning them (if not their life). If you saw what had happened to that man would you have the courage to say something? It's easy to say Yes in front of your keyboard in a largely secular and completely liberal country.

The world in which these people functioned is completely different to the world we function in today. It was a completely fcuked up place to live. I wouldn't want to pass comment on people's responsibility when I know nothing of what that world is like.

Also completely agree with the poster above about removing the Church's special place in the Constitution. They are a stain on our country and our reputation, and removing them would send a clear message that Ireland does not of approve of this and does not tolerate it.

If there was a referendum on it I know which way I'd be voting. Do people think they would be removed from the constitution if people were put to the polls?

Nodin · 27-11-2009 9:32am

The "special position" was removed in 1972/73......

Are all irish people to blame for the abuse in the Catholic Church?

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