irish surname - to comma after O or not?

janiejones · 21-11-2014 9:46pm #1

My surname is O Driscoll. Or is it O'Driscoll?

I've heard O is an Irish word so doesn't need an a comma. In English it's of Driscoll so the comma replaces the f.

I've heard it's O if you didn't take soup from the English during the famine (just good sense in my opinion, not a time to stick to too many principles) and O' if you did.

But what if some priest at some baptism just added it and then its there. On your birth cert.

My dad wanted to call me Tomas but I'm Thomas because of how the priest wrote it and my parents said nothing

Waitsian · 21-11-2014 11:17pm

janiejones wrote: »

My surname is O Driscoll. Or is it O'Driscoll? I've heard it's O if you didn't take soup from the English during the famine (just good sense in my opinion, not a time to stick to too many principles) and O' if you did.

Seriously, does it really matter? It's the 21st century, who cares?

Jellybaby1 · 22-11-2014 12:22am

Use whichever spelling you want. My grandmother's first name was misspelled on her baptism record, my father's first and second names were switched on his, but they both signed the correct name whenever they had to sign anything. You can leave the apostrophe in or leave it out, it will still be pronounced the same way.

Stinicker · 22-11-2014 2:10am

The correct spelling is O'Sullivan, O'Brien, O'Flaherty etc. There should never be a space between the "O" and the Surname and Apostrophe should fill the gap. It can be a right balls for online forms and especially booking tickets etc. and in this instance it is fine to omit the apostrophe and spell it O Brien etc.

jonniebgood1 · 22-11-2014 11:11am

mod9maple wrote: »

Seriously, does it really matter? It's the 21st century, who cares?

mod9maple. If you have nothing to add to a thread then don't bother posting. In future it will earn you an infraction.

moderator

Peregrinus · 24-11-2014 3:42am

In Irish, there is no commma; Ó Drisceoil. However the well-settled convention when anglicising Gaelic names of the Ó format is to insert a comma.

Of course, it's your name; you can write it how you like. But if you omit a comma in the anglicised version (or include a comma in the Gaelic version) you will be spelling it unconventionally, and you can expect others frequently to get it wrong, since it will not conform to their expectations.

janiejones · 24-11-2014 10:53am

Thanks for all the responses guys. I never saw it as a big deal but I was always curious, this is a great place for those curiosities

pedroeibar1 · 24-11-2014 3:02pm

janiejones wrote: »

My surname is O Driscoll. Or is it O'Driscoll?

I've heard O is an Irish word so doesn't need an a comma. In English it's of Driscoll so the comma replaces the f.

I've heard it's O if you didn't take soup from the English during the famine (just good sense in my opinion, not a time to stick to too many principles) and O' if you did.

But what if some priest at some baptism just added it and then its there. On your birth cert.

My dad wanted to call me Tomas but I'm Thomas because of how the priest wrote it and my parents said nothing

You should avoid taking ignorant comments too seriously. The prefix O’ is derived from ua, and means “grandson" or "descendant of" whereas Mac/Mc means “son of”.

In Ireland dropping an O or Mac invariably had nothing whatsoever to do with the Famine. The “O” and “Mac” were dropped by the tens of thousands in the period up to the Gaelic revival, at which time and in the early 1900’s they were readopted by many, often incorrectly.

The name on your birth cert is your legal name, what is on your baptismal cert is of little consequence except to whatever Church into which you were baptized.

I understand Mod9’s response in the context of your comment on “souper” (a cliché corrected so many times.........) so I do not have a problem with it.

And it is an apostrophe, not a comma.:)

janiejones · 24-11-2014 3:06pm

Yeah, 100% apostrophe. Kicking myself over that one ðŸ˜Š

tac foley · 24-11-2014 6:05pm

My dad would tell that it was dropped because so many Irish names would otherwise begin with the letter 'O'.

With relatives with names like O'Farrell, O'Flaherty, O'Fearon and O'Fogarty I can understand how this might have been a good move at the time.

tac

dubhthach · 25-11-2014 11:40am

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

You should avoid taking ignorant comments too seriously. The prefix O’ is derived from ua, and means “grandson" or "descendant of" whereas Mac/Mc means “son of”.

In Ireland dropping an O or Mac invariably had nothing whatsoever to do with the Famine. The “O” and “Mac” were dropped by the tens of thousands in the period up to the Gaelic revival, at which time and in the early 1900’s they were readopted by many, often incorrectly.

The name on your birth cert is your legal name, what is on your baptismal cert is of little consequence except to whatever Church into which you were baptized.

I understand Mod9’s response in the context of your comment on “souper” (a cliché corrected so many times.........) so I do not have a problem with it.

And it is an apostrophe, not a comma.:)

Just to add to Pedro's excellent post.

Ua is correct in context of Old and Middle Irish, the modern form is Ó -- of course the plural is Uí (pronounced like english "ee")

The point about readapting O'/Mc during revival of early 20th century is very apt. One example I can think of is:

Ó Carthaigh -> Carty
Mac Carthaigh -> McCarthy

With revival no doubt some of the "Carty's" took up the "Mc" even though they should have instead been O'Carthy (which you never see).

What's evident from looking at records that some names which we only use the form "O'X" had nearly completely dropped the O' in the 19th century only to see it return. A good example I think is O'Sullivan -- unfortunately this had led to people making up silly statements that "Sullivan is protestant and O'Sullivan is catholic" (beyond stupid tbh)

Jellybaby1 · 25-11-2014 11:50am

I originally said that it doesn't really make much difference. However just I recently heard of a poor man who wasn't allowed get his flight due to a slight difference in his name between his ticket and his passport. So perhaps it is better to get it right in all areas of your life. I came across this link you might find of interest:

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlcar2/old_irish_naming_patterns.htm

pinkypinky · 25-11-2014 4:49pm

In genealogy, we don't distinguish between O or no O in surnames. If you're looking for an Irish surnamed family in the 19th century (or even early 20th), you have to check both because people did swap between the two, especially because of illiteracy. I've seen two versions on one birth cert!

Waitsian · 25-11-2014 10:47pm

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

mod9maple. If you have nothing to add to a thread then don't bother posting. In future it will earn you an infraction.

My sincere apologies jonnie (and the OP), my comment was short-tempered and really unnecessary. As pedro pointed out it was the 'famine' comment that was the red rag to the bull. Still, no excuse. Won't happen again.

I'm glad wiser heads prevailed and janie got the answers.

irish surname - to comma after O or not?

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