Still no answers for families of Dublin and Monaghan Bombings

wolfpawnat · 06-05-2010 11:05pm #1

Well it is 36 years later, and no one has ever served time for the atrocious attack on innocent people, of which most were women and children (including one unborn child).

There is strong proof that British Security Forces colluded in the bomb and yet we are bending over backwards to facilitate the UK, should we not be at least be forcing them to accept responsibility for their part in this.

It is really angering me to think these people are clearly not going to get justice. A family of 2 adults and their 2 daughters blown apart. Girls running for their trains. A mum killed while her child in her buggy miraculously survived. How were any of these people guilty of anything!

Why are we allowing this still?

Fratton Fred · 06-05-2010 11:09pm

wolfpawnat wrote: »

There is strong proof that British Security Forces colluded in the bomb and yet we are bending over backwards to facilitate the UK, should we not be at least be forcing them to accept responsibility for their part in this.

could you explain what this proof is?

There are a lot of unsolved crimes from the troubles, many, like this, will never be closed.

Seth Brundle · 06-05-2010 11:16pm

From memory after reading Don Mullen's book, there is no evidence as it was all destroyed. There are lots of claims and suggestions but IIRC nothing concrete.

moonpurple · 07-05-2010 7:04am

one response to this and thousands of murders in these islands 1968 to 2010 is found in the good friday agreement which was approved in every one of the 32 counties of Eireann and which opens with the following:

DECLARATION OF SUPPORT

1. We, the participants in the multi-party negotiations, believe that the agreement we have negotiated offers a truly historic opportunity for a new beginning.

2. The tragedies of the past have left a deep and profoundly regrettable legacy of suffering. We must never forget those who have died or been injured, and their families. But we can best honour them through a fresh start, in which we firmly dedicate ourselves to the achievement of reconciliation, tolerance, and mutual trust, and to the protection and vindication of the human rights of all.

3. We are committed to partnership, equality and mutual respect as the basis of relationships within Northern Ireland, between North and South, and between these islands.

4. We reaffirm our total and absolute commitment to exclusively democratic and peaceful means of resolving differences on political issues, and our opposition to any use or threat of force by others for any political purpose, whether in regard to this agreement or otherwise.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 07-05-2010 6:50pm

What I find most suspicious is the UVF didn't claim it until 93.

I think its possible they built the bombs themselves to be honest. I also think they could have planted them without assistance. Civillians are soft targets.

I don't see why the British government would have wanted them to go off.

Nodin · 07-05-2010 6:56pm

They placed them themselves for the most part, however they were constructed and the operation was planned with British input. The loyalists never showed that kind of ability again.

The reasoning behind the bombs was to try to get the Irish Govt to impose internment south of the border.

wolfpawnat · 07-05-2010 6:59pm

why would 2 ex Brit soldiers admit to being involved though. That makes no sense as they were not discharged from the army so they dont appear to have had an axe to grind!

Very confusing.

wolfpawnat · 07-05-2010 7:04pm

Nodin wrote: »

They placed them themselves for the most part, however they were constructed and the operation was planned with British input. The loyalists never showed that kind of ability again.

The reasoning behind the bombs was to try to get the Irish Govt to impose internment south of the border.

well yes, they never had a "job" like that again. The bombs consisted of ingredients used by UVF BUT the cars used were Belfast cars that were not reported missing and when the police up north were asked for their help with anything, they refused!!!!

Bottle_of_Smoke · 07-05-2010 7:13pm

Nodin wrote: »

They placed them themselves for the most part, however they were constructed and the operation was planned with British input. The loyalists never showed that kind of ability again.

The reasoning behind the bombs was to try to get the Irish Govt to impose internment south of the border.

We'll never know and I'm not claiming I'm definitely right, but I think its possible crown forces had previously trained them in bomb-making techniques (I'm thinking of the McGurks bar bombing) and they used it in opposition to the Sunningdale Agreement for the Dublin/Monaghan bombings

Maybe it was to do with onternment in the south but it really seemed to be odd timing during the ulster workers strike.

Its true they didn't show that ability again but its also possible that they simply preferred the use of firearms. They didn't have commercial or security targets, Why bother with explosives when you can easily walk into a civillian pub and open fire.

Nodin · 07-05-2010 7:26pm

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

We'll never know and I'm not claiming I'm definitely right, but I think its possible crown forces had previously trained them in bomb-making techniques (I'm thinking of the McGurks bar bombing) and they used it in opposition to the Sunningdale Agreement for the Dublin/Monaghan bombings

Maybe it was to do with onternment in the south but it really seemed to be odd timing during the ulster workers strike.

Its true they didn't show that ability again but its also possible that they simply preferred the use of firearms. They didn't have commercial or security targets, Why bother with explosives when you can easily walk into a civillian pub and open fire.

Attacks down south wouldn't be as easy. Bombs are far more effective at that kind of thing. They're a force multiplier. Easier get away etc.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 07-05-2010 7:44pm

wolfpawnat wrote: »

well yes, they never had a "job" like that again. The bombs consisted of ingredients used by UVF BUT the cars used were Belfast cars that were not reported missing and when the police up north were asked for their help with anything, they refused!!!!

The RUC and the Gardai often didn't co-operate. RUC often believed Gardai were soft on the IRA. This pissed the Gardai off no end and there was a lot of bad blood.

Nodin wrote:

Attacks down south wouldn't be as easy. Bombs are far more effective at that kind of thing. They're a force multiplier. Easier get away etc.

Thats what I mean kind of. AFAIK they didn't have any other major attacks in the republic.

I was reading Shankill Butchers by Martin Dillon. At one point the gang wanted to place a bomb at a republican commeroration parade(in belfast). However to get access to the bomb-maker the (largely autonomous) gang would need approval from the UVF leaders. The author suggested the leadership would not approve of an indiscriminate attack on civillians so they had to convince them it would be primed to go off when hardline reoublicans/IRA members would be passing. They got it wrong and only a young boy was killed.

Perhaps something similar happened with Dub/Mon bombings. A different target approved but placed in the wrong spot intentionally or otherwise. Perhaps would explain them not claiming the massacre until they were pretty much exposed 20 years later.

Nodin · 07-05-2010 7:57pm

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Perhaps something similar happened with Dub/Mon bombings. A different target approved but placed in the wrong spot intentionally or otherwise. Perhaps would explain them not claiming the massacre until they were pretty much exposed 20 years later.

One bomb might be placed in the wrong spot. However, there was a series of them.

Liam Byrne · 07-05-2010 8:03pm

Nodin wrote: »

One bomb might be placed in the wrong spot. However, there was a series of them.

Well we are expected to accept one "side's" stories of loads of mistakes and accidents, so why not accept the other side's story when it's similar ?

I'd love if EVERY innocent family had closure and we could leave the whole violent sorry mess behind.

Nodin · 07-05-2010 8:08pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I'd love if EVERY innocent family had closure and we could leave the whole violent sorry mess behind.

No Liam, I'm fairly sure you'd bring it all up at every and any occassion.

dlofnep · 07-05-2010 8:12pm

Liam, are you suggesting that there wasn't collusion involved?

Liam Byrne · 07-05-2010 8:55pm

dlofnep wrote: »

Liam, are you suggesting that there wasn't collusion involved?

Where did you see me even remotely suggest such a thing ?

Nodin wrote: »

No Liam, I'm fairly sure you'd bring it all up at every and any occassion.

So you're basically calling me a liar, then ?

There's a report button available to me if you repeat that claim.

The only reason I bring certain things up is when someone makes biased claims re closure for one side.

Ideally, I'd like to see closure and facts out in the open for EVERYONE - including, for example, Jerry McCabe's or Jean McConville's or Robert McCartney's families - and 100% unequivocal condemnation of those acts and those involved.

Anyone asking for closure or full disclosure on Dublin and Monaghan is within their rights; anyone asking for those while excusing other "mistakes" or without supporting the above is a biased hypocrite.

dlofnep · 07-05-2010 9:11pm

That's grand, I just wanted to clear it up.

FTA69 · 07-05-2010 9:32pm

Anyone seriously trying to downplay the level of collusion between the British state and Loyalist death squads in this country obviously has a very clear agenda indeed. It wasn't a case of Sammy the UDR man slipping Trevor the UVF man the odd rifle like. British military organisations such as the Military Reconnaissance Force and the Force Research Unit answered directly to the British authorities, as did organisations such as MI5. These organisations facilitated the arming and the provision of intelligence to Loyalists since the 1970s, and also engaged in a myriad of other dirty tricks to boot; both in the north and also in the south.

An interesting case in point is that of Brian Nelson, a FRU agent who was actually at one stage in charge of UDA intelligence. In effect you had a British agent (working for an official British body) who was assisting illegal death squads to murder British citizens.

I for one would be very interested in seeing a truth and reconciliation committee established, but the fact is it won't due to the vested interests involved. For instance Gerry Adams is hardly going to help initiate a process which results in him admitting he was completely in charge of the IRA since the early 1980s and more importantly, the Brits are never in a million years going to disclose the facts they organised and sponsored hundreds of murders of their own citizens as well as a massacre in a neighbouring state.

Liam Byrne · 07-05-2010 9:36pm

dlofnep wrote: »

That's grand, I just wanted to clear it up.

Fair enough.

I was merely commenting on Nodin implying that because there was more than one that it must have been deliberate, which is what we're asked to believe in relation to all of the "other" bombings, e.g. Omagh where the car was "left in the wrong place".

I don't know the truth about either "side", so I won't assume, but I'll treat both with the same scepticism.

LordSutch · 07-05-2010 9:38pm

This thread was launched at 23.05 last night (right in the middle of the UK Election results), just wondering is there a reason why it was launched last night? was the report on the bombings due out yesterday or something?

wolfpawnat · 07-05-2010 9:54pm

Camelot wrote: »

This thread was launched at 23.05 last night (right in the middle of the UK Election results), just wondering is there a reason why it was launched last night? was the report on the bombings due out yesterday or something?

Actually I am reading a book on the bombings and as I thought about it, I got more and more pissed off at the fact there are families that still have not seen anyone put away for this. As a mum myself I was thinking of all the children killed that day, I walk past the monuments a lot and it boils my blood to think about it.

The elections had nothing to do with me posting this. Just ironic timing.

A Dub in Glasgo · 07-05-2010 9:59pm

The anniversary of the atrocity is coming up later this month as well

LordSutch · 07-05-2010 10:10pm

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

The anniversary of the atrocity is coming up later this month as well

Just one of many atrocities comitted over the last thirty five years (sadly), from Bloody Friday, to the 'La Mon' Restaurant Bombing, through Enniskillen, right up to Omagh (1998), with all the other atrocities in between. > So many Atrocity anniversaries, so depressing ..............

Nodin · 07-05-2010 10:18pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

There's a report button available to me if you repeat that claim.
.

Wonderful, debate via threat.

Just for clarity - Are you stating that in certain circumstances you'd stop dragging the past up in virtually every Sinn Fein thread?

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Anyone asking for closure or full disclosure on Dublin and Monaghan is within their rights; anyone asking for those while excusing other "mistakes" or without supporting the above is a biased hypocrite.
.

...certainly at the time of that being posted, nobody had done so.

Poccington · 07-05-2010 10:37pm

Camelot wrote: »

Just one of many atrocities comitted over the last thirty five years (sadly), from Bloody Friday, to the 'La Mon' Restaurant Bombing, through Enniskillen, right up to Omagh (1998), with all the other atrocities in between. > So many Atrocity anniversaries, so depressing ..............

I'm sure it's a complete conincidence that in a thread regarding the Dublin and Monaghan bombings, which most likely involved collusion with British forces at some stage you decide to refer to other atrocities as "so depressing". Then of course, you go onto name atrocities carried out by the PIRA and RIRA and somehow, when talking about atrocities carried out during the Troubles, you manage to somehow forget Bloody Sunday or the Miami Showband massacre which is beyond me.

Of course, I'm sure the fact you only mentioned Republican acts and omitted acts carried out by Loyalists and British forces is a complete coincidence.

aDeener · 07-05-2010 11:39pm

If it came out officially that there was british collusion, what exactly would the repercussions of that be?
i mean wouldnt that be classed as an act of war? similiar to that of invading another country?

no fear of this coming out officially anyway, it will be all kept under wraps.

A Dub in Glasgo · 08-05-2010 12:27am

Camelot wrote: »

Just one of many atrocities comitted over the last thirty five years (sadly), from Bloody Friday, to the 'La Mon' Restaurant Bombing, through Enniskillen, right up to Omagh (1998), with all the other atrocities in between. > So many Atrocity anniversaries, so depressing ..............

Yes and then there is whataboutery, which you apparantly excel at

wolfpawnat · 08-05-2010 12:47am

Camelot wrote: »

Just one of many atrocities comitted over the last thirty five years (sadly), from Bloody Friday, to the 'La Mon' Restaurant Bombing, through Enniskillen, right up to Omagh (1998), with all the other atrocities in between. > So many Atrocity anniversaries, so depressing ..............

Eh, Where is Bloody Sunday in this???? I suppose 14 innocent protesters being cornered and shot at by paramilitaries as they flee does not enter into this at all. And before I am called a republican, I disagree with the injuring/maiming and killing of any civilians regardless of political/religious background. I do believe anyone who see themselves as in an army (seen as a legitamit or otherwise) can expect horrendous things to occur, but harming innocent civilians is something I feel bad for.

Poccington wrote: »

I'm sure it's a complete conincidence that in a thread regarding the Dublin and Monaghan bombings, which most likely involved collusion with British forces at some stage you decide to refer to other atrocities as "so depressing". Then of course, you go onto name atrocities carried out by the PIRA and RIRA and somehow, when talking about atrocities carried out during the Troubles, you manage to somehow forget Bloody Sunday or the Miami Showband massacre which is beyond me.

Of course, I'm sure the fact you only mentioned Republican acts and omitted acts carried out by Loyalists and British forces is a complete coincidence.

Well yes, I opened this thread solely because it seems to be a forgotten compared to other acts during that time as

A) It was not in the North, hence why it is seen as a separate act, it was not in an active war zone!

The Irish Gov (like their brothers today) seemed to bend over and take it when they got no co-operation from the Brits.

If you were to go into the acts for violence of the North it would turn into a tit for tat argument.

wolfpawnat · 08-05-2010 12:56am

BTW its anniversary is the 17th. Is there any commemorations on for it?

lugha · 08-05-2010 1:37am

wolfpawnat wrote: »

A) It was not in the North, hence why it is seen as a separate act, it was not in an active war zone!

You seem to be engaged in some confused reasoning here.

If you, as I, do not believe the troubles amounted to a legitimate war then it is certainly right to feel reprehension at the various alleged (and in all likelihood, actual) mid-deeds of British agents such as any involvement in the Dublin or Monaghan bombings or any other incidents of collusion.

If however, you believe the campaign waged by physical force republicans was legitimate then I don’t see how you can allege that any incidents of collusion were improper. After all, British forces and the various Loyalist groupings were broadly on the same side, so there was nothing amiss about them forming alliances / colluding (delete according to your political viewpoint).

Again I stress, I did not consider the 30 year republican campaign to be a legitimate war so there is no inconsistency with me expecting that British forces should have abided by the constraints imposed by civil society, and in particular, refrained from collusion. But I fail to see how anyone who did see the afore mentioned campaign as a legitimate war can take the same stand point.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 08-05-2010 2:39am

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Well yes, I opened this thread solely because it seems to be a forgotten compared to other acts during that time as

A) It was not in the North, hence why it is seen as a separate act, it was not in an active war zone!

It was not a seperate act. It was carried out by the Ulster Volunteer Force. It was very connected.

LordSutch · 08-05-2010 7:55am

Specially for Poccington & wolfpawnat; The title of this thread is to do with the Dublin & Monagham Bombings! > (Thread launched at 23:05 in the middle of the UK election debate), hence my prevous post#23 in which I go on to mention several other Bombings-atrocities . . . . .

I have not said who carried them out, and to be honest I don't even know who did, but the common theme is to do with the word Bombing, I could also add McGurk's Bar bombing, Aldershot bombing, Claudy bombing, M62 coach bombing, Guildford pub bombings, and many more Bombings too.

Bloody Sunday wasn't a Bombing (Wolfpawnat), and neither was the Miami Showband massacre which you mention (Poccington), I do however suspect that 99% of the Bombings carried out during the troubles were perpetrared by the IRA & the INLA, I wasn't aware that the British forces were responsible for the Bombings in Dublin & Monaghan.

Exile 1798 · 08-05-2010 9:39am

Camelot wrote: »

Specially for Poccington & wolfpawnat; The title of this thread is to do with the Dublin & Monagham Bombings! > (Thread launched at 23:05 in the middle of the UK election debate), hence my prevous post#23 in which I go on to mention several other Bombings-atrocities . . . . .

I have not said who carried them out, and to be honest I don't even know who did, but the common theme is to do with the word Bombing, I could also add McGurk's Bar bombing, Aldershot bombing, Claudy bombing, M62 coach bombing, Guildford pub bombings, and many more Bombings too.

Bloody Sunday wasn't a Bombing (Wolfpawnat), and neither was the Miami Showband massacre which you mention (Poccington), I do however suspect that 99% of the Bombings carried out during the troubles were perpetrared by the IRA & the INLA, I wasn't aware that the British forces were responsible for the Bombings in Dublin & Monaghan.

Your "suspicion" is wrong, and spectacularly so.

Do you really think it's wise to make stuff up on the spot and post it?

LordSutch · 08-05-2010 9:45am

Exile 1798 wrote: »

Your "suspicion" is wrong, and spectacularly so.

Do you really think it's wise to make stuff up on the spot and post it?

OK Mr Know it all, if not the IRA-INLA, then who?

wolfpawnat · 08-05-2010 9:53am

lugha wrote: »

If you, as I, do not believe the troubles amounted to a legitimate war then it is certainly right to feel reprehension at the various alleged (and in all likelihood, actual) mid-deeds of British agents such as any involvement in the Dublin or Monaghan bombings or any other incidents of collusion.

If however, you believe the campaign waged by physical force republicans was legitimate then I don’t see how you can allege that any incidents of collusion were improper. After all, British forces and the various Loyalist groupings were broadly on the same side, so there was nothing amiss about them forming alliances / colluding (delete according to your political viewpoint).

Again I stress, I did not consider the 30 year republican campaign to be a legitimate war so there is no inconsistency with me expecting that British forces should have abided by the constraints imposed by civil society, and in particular, refrained from collusion. But I fail to see how anyone who did see the afore mentioned campaign as a legitimate war can take the same stand point.

I believe the North was a legitamit war zone. Where sadly you would expect such acts to occur, but London/Dublin/Monaghan, etc I would not see as part of said war zone. As for how did the legitamacy of the Northern War, truthfully..... I believe that it was a retailiation to the opperssion of an entire community completely based on their political and religious beliefs. That said I will not deny the attrocities committed by either side, nor do I condone the killing of any civilians in the process. As I said before I see the paramilitary groups and the army as the exceptions as both sides knew they were part of a war, and soldiers are supposed to be wars casulties! )hence why I am not signed into the Irish Army (not that they are involved in too much active war zone stuff) I believe the troops that were up north at the time were in a legitamit a war zone as they are now in the middle east.

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

It was not a seperate act. It was carried out by the Ulster Volunteer Force. It was very connected.

I suppose I worded that incorrectly, forgive me. What I meant was I cannot comprehend how an act performed outside of the six counties of Ulster that make up the "North" (regardless of the whereabouts of where it takes place) can be let just happen and there be no consequences. After all IRA attacks on London there was renewed campaigns to crush them in the North, but we get attacked and the attitde is one of "sure, better off just leaving well enough alone" same fecking attitude we have to everything, kills me to think we have no backbone anymore.

Camelot wrote: »

Specially for Poccington & wolfpawnat; The title of this thread is to do with the Dublin & Monagham Bombings! > (Thread launched at 23:05 in the middle of the UK election debate), hence my prevous post#23 in which I go on to mention several other Bombings-atrocities . . . . .

The election, as I previously stated had very little to do with my posting this thread. I am reading up on the D&M bombings and I got furious as I researched the severe lack of justice for the families of 33 victims (plus 1 unborn baby) and over 300 survivors. The only thing about the election was I was so bored of listening about it, and my housemate was asleep on the couch, that I decided to go on the internet and there I decided to open a thread about it. Apart from the 6 counties up north I couldnt care less about the Brits and their elections. I am from a different country to them, I would say the same about the elections in Egypt!

Camelot wrote: »

Bloody Sunday wasn't a Bombing (Wolfpawnat), and neither was the Miami Showband massacre which you mention (Poccington), I do however suspect that 99% of the Bombings carried out during the troubles were perpetrared by the IRA & the INLA, I wasn't aware that the British forces were responsible for the Bombings in Dublin & Monaghan.

Yes most bombings were by the different republican groups, but as one poster already said, the opposition were more inclined to use guns as they were equipped by British forces as well as most of the acts of genocide being carried out by the British forces themselves. I do believe myself and Poccington were decussing atrocities of Northern Ireland rather than just bombings. (and before you think I am being dramatic, yes it was genocide, killing a person solely because they have different to you in relation religious and political beliefs is genocide)

Also I think what makes the likes of Bloody Sunday worse is it was not carried out by extremists but by the people who were supposed to have been put on the streets of the North to protect ALL members of the law abiding community, but that is for another thread.

Exile 1798 · 08-05-2010 10:00am

Camelot wrote: »

OK Mr Know it all, if not the IRA-INLA, then who?

Unbelievable.:eek:

By "know it all" you mean someone who knows basic facts about the Troubles that any person who gives their opinion of the subject should.

Ever hear of the UVF, UFF, LVF? These guys bombed towns, bombed pubs, bombed political offices for thirty years. They didn't give warnings. Perhaps the only reason "know nothings" like you don't know these facts is because Loyalist atrocities and attempted atrocities against civilians were the normal course of events, not memorable exceptions.

Poccington · 08-05-2010 10:27am

Camelot wrote: »

Bloody Sunday wasn't a Bombing (Wolfpawnat), and neither was the Miami Showband massacre which you mention (Poccington), I do however suspect that 99% of the Bombings carried out during the troubles were perpetrared by the IRA & the INLA, I wasn't aware that the British forces were responsible for the Bombings in Dublin & Monaghan.

Sorry, I didn't realise that an atrocity wasn't an atrocity unless explosives were involved. The Miami Showband Massacre would've been a bombing but the UVF/UDR made a balls of it and the bomb detonated, so they just shot the band instead. :rolleyes:

McGurk's Bar, Long Bar, Dolan's Bar, McGlade's Bar, Trainor's Bar, Conway's Bar, car bombs on Eden Quay and Sackville Place in '71 and another car bomb in Sackville Place in '73. All these bombings were carried out by the UVF in a 5 year period in the 70's and they carried out many, many more in the 70's and onwards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Ulster_Volunteer_Force_actions

Your claim that 99% of the bombings were carried out by the IRA & INLA is not only highly, highly naive it's plain bloody ridiculous.

aDeener · 08-05-2010 11:03am

wolfpawnat wrote: »

I believe the North was a legitamit war zone. Where sadly you would expect such acts to occur, but London/Dublin/Monaghan, etc I would not see as part of said war zone. As for how did the legitamacy of the Northern War, truthfully..... I believe that it was a retailiation to the opperssion of an entire community completely based on their political and religious beliefs. That said I will not deny the attrocities committed by either side, nor do I condone the killing of any civilians in the process. As I said before I see the paramilitary groups and the army as the exceptions as both sides knew they were part of a war, and soldiers are supposed to be wars casulties! )hence why I am not signed into the Irish Army (not that they are involved in too much active war zone stuff) I believe the troops that were up north at the time were in a legitamit a war zone as they are now in the middle east.

I suppose I worded that incorrectly, forgive me. What I meant was I cannot comprehend how an act performed outside of the six counties of Ulster that make up the "North" (regardless of the whereabouts of where it takes place) can be let just happen and there be no consequences. After all IRA attacks on London there was renewed campaigns to crush them in the North, but we get attacked and the attitde is one of "sure, better off just leaving well enough alone" same fecking attitude we have to everything, kills me to think we have no backbone anymore.

The election, as I previously stated had very little to do with my posting this thread. I am reading up on the D&M bombings and I got furious as I researched the severe lack of justice for the families of 33 victims (plus 1 unborn baby) and over 300 survivors. The only thing about the election was I was so bored of listening about it, and my housemate was asleep on the couch, that I decided to go on the internet and there I decided to open a thread about it. Apart from the 6 counties up north I couldnt care less about the Brits and their elections. I am from a different country to them, I would say the same about the elections in Egypt!

Yes most bombings were by the different republican groups, but as one poster already said, the opposition were more inclined to use guns as they were equipped by British forces as well as most of the acts of genocide being carried out by the British forces themselves. I do believe myself and Poccington were decussing atrocities of Northern Ireland rather than just bombings. (and before you think I am being dramatic, yes it was genocide, killing a person solely because they have different to you in relation religious and political beliefs is genocide)

Also I think what makes the likes of Bloody Sunday worse is it was not carried out by extremists but by the people who were supposed to have been put on the streets of the North to protect ALL members of the law abiding community, but that is for another thread.

thats not completely fair to say, the british embassy being burned down after bloody sunday is a case in point

wolfpawnat · 08-05-2010 11:27am

aDeener wrote: »

thats not completely fair to say, the british embassy being burned down after bloody sunday is a case in point

Oh, up North they have the liathróidí to retailiate. I was talking about the irish Gov in Leinster house who didnt even bat an eyelid!!!!!

dlofnep · 08-05-2010 12:51pm

Camelot wrote: »

I wasn't aware that the British forces were responsible for the Bombings in Dublin & Monaghan.

Consider yourself aware.

nacho libre · 08-05-2010 4:24pm

wolfpawnat wrote: »

I believe the North was a legitamit war zone.

I'm just curious since you viewed it this way. What is your view on the SAS shoot to kill policy. did you view such a policy as a crime of agresssion or a legitimitate tactic to defeat an enemy in a war?

moonpurple · 08-05-2010 6:17pm

what about the other dublin fatal bombing at another time or do any of you remember it....should the family of the deceased learn who planted that bomb which went off a five minute walk from this keyboard

clue: detonated from behind bushes when target came into view

LordSutch · 08-05-2010 7:03pm

Just found this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bombings_during_the_Northern_Ireland_Troubles

wolfpawnat · 08-05-2010 8:15pm

nacho libre wrote: »

I'm just curious since you viewed it this way. What is your view on the SAS shoot to kill policy. did you view such a policy as a crime of agresssion or a legitimitate tactic to defeat an enemy in a war?

It is a war tactic yes, do I agree with it, no. Reasons specifically relating to the North, Aidan Mcanespie is a perfect example, as of course the poor victims of Bloody Sunday!!!!!!!

Camelot wrote: »

Just found this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bombings_during_the_Northern_Ireland_Troubles

Though many of the atroicities on that page are correct, rule of thumb, don't ever enter a political debate with Wikipedia as your source!

Bottle_of_Smoke · 08-05-2010 8:22pm

wolfpawnat wrote: »

It is a war tactic yes, do I agree with it, no. Reasons specifically relating to the North, Aidan Mcanespie is a perfect example, as of course the poor victims of Bloody Sunday!!!!!!!

I think he's talking of shoot to kill on known IRA targets. Like the attack at loughall

A Dub in Glasgo · 08-05-2010 8:28pm

People can not have it both ways. Loughgall (bar the civilian killed) was fine and Warrenpoint was fine. To think one is OK whilst the other is wrong is a classic example of hypocrisy.

nacho libre · 08-05-2010 11:34pm

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I think he's talking of shoot to kill on known IRA targets. Like the attack at loughall

Yes that's what i meant.

moonpurple · 09-05-2010 7:20am

the OP is trying to stir up the bitter bucket of irish history, the OP is a rira and cira groupie, one of a few who type on this forum,
the answer to 10,000 bombings in oilean na hEireann between 1968 and today is the good friday agreement ratified by the majority of voters over 32 counties, it opens as follows,

We, the participants in the multi-party negotiations, believe that the agreement we have negotiated offers a truly historic opportunity for a new beginning.

The tragedies of the past have left a deep and profoundly regrettable legacy of suffering. We must never forget those who have died or been injured, and their families. But we can best honour them through a fresh start, in which we firmly dedicate ourselves to the achievement of reconciliation, tolerance, and mutual trust, and to the protection and vindication of the human rights of all.

We are committed to partnership, equality and mutual respect as the basis of relationships within Northern Ireland, between North and South, and between these islands.

We reaffirm our total and absolute commitment to exclusively democratic and peaceful means of resolving differences on political issues, and our opposition to any use or threat of force by others for any political purpose whether in regard to this agreement or otherwise.

We acknowledge the substantial differences between our continuing, and equally legitimate, political aspirations. However, we will endeavour to strive in every practical way towards reconciliation and rapprochement within the framework of democratic and agreed arrangements. We pledge that we will, in good faith, work to ensure the success of each and every one of the arrangements to be established under this agreement. It is accepted that all of the institutional and constitutional arrangements - an Assembly in Northern Ireland, a North/South Ministerial Council, implementation bodies, a British-Irish Council and a British-Irish Intergovernmental conference and any amendments to British Acts of Parliment and the Constitution of Ireland - are interlocking and interdependent and that in particular the functioning of the Assembly and the North/South Council are so closely inter-related that the success of each depends on that of the other.

Accordingly, in a spirit of concord, we strongly commend this agreement to the people, North and South, for their approval.

UltimateMale · 09-05-2010 5:13pm

lugha wrote: »

You seem to be engaged in some confused reasoning here.

If you, as I, do not believe the troubles amounted to a legitimate war then it is certainly right to feel reprehension at the various alleged (and in all likelihood, actual) mid-deeds of British agents such as any involvement in the Dublin or Monaghan bombings or any other incidents of collusion.

If however, you believe the campaign waged by physical force republicans was legitimate then I don’t see how you can allege that any incidents of collusion were improper. After all, British forces and the various Loyalist groupings were broadly on the same side, so there was nothing amiss about them forming alliances / colluding (delete according to your political viewpoint).

Again I stress, I did not consider the 30 year republican campaign to be a legitimate war so there is no inconsistency with me expecting that British forces should have abided by the constraints imposed by civil society, and in particular, refrained from collusion. But I fail to see how anyone who did see the afore mentioned campaign as a legitimate war can take the same stand point.

You seem to be engaged in some very confused reasoning here. The UVF, UFF etc are by law illegal oragnisations in the area occupied by the British state and their acts, ( mainly the murder of totally innocent Catholics either side of the border ) totally illegal. As the " forces of law and order " it is the job of the police, army etc to uphold that law and to try to apprehend and stop those carrying out illegal acts, not to actively assist in such acts.

The fact that they did the exact opposite to the law and their declared role in upholding the law is an even more damning indication of the real role of to British ' peace keeping ' in Ireland.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 09-05-2010 5:19pm

UltimateMale wrote: »

You seem to be engaged in some very confused reasoning here. The UVF, UFF etc are by law illegal oragnisations in the area occupied by the British state and their acts, ( mainly the murder of totally innocent Catholics either side of the border ) totally illegal. As the " forces of law and order " it is the job of the police, army etc to uphold that law and to try to apprehend and stop those carrying out illegal acts, not to actively assist in such acts.

The fact that they did the exact opposite to the law and their declared role in upholding the law is an even more damning indication of the real role of to British ' peace keeping ' in Ireland.

Whilst I agree in the case of this bombing, I can see lugha's point in say a Republican complaining about a UVF member being given logistical support in killing an IRA member

FlutterinBantam · 09-05-2010 5:44pm

Can I presume that all the people who seem to know so much about these events have got to the relevant authorities with their input?

Otherwise it's all just conjectural internet bulldust;)

Still no answers for families of Dublin and Monaghan Bombings

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