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Different day - Different story!

  • 15-05-2010 1:42pm
    #1
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭


    Different day - Different story!

    Thursday: Fianna Fail made some mistakes, but I didn't: Cowen
    Friday: The Taoiseach has again acknowledged that he shares the blame for mistakes made by the Government during his time as Finance Minister and Taoiseach.

    Isn't it amazing what difference a day makes - but don't just take my word for it, see for yourself:

    * http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fianna-fail-made-some-mistakes-but-i-didnt-cowen-2179696.html
    and
    * http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0514/cownenb.html

    Such things can't be allowed pass without highlighting or comment.
    Irrespective of it being FF - FG - lab' or whom ever, it just goes to show the PR spin people are running politics.
    ...That and the daily dose of hypocrisy from day to day, depending on what time of the week it is!

    Meanwhile, still no sign of any of the three over due by-elections: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fg-pile-byelection-pressure-on-cowen-2181323.html

    Donegal South-West has had a Dail vacancy since Pat 'the Cope' Gallagher was elected MEP last June.
    Dublin South has been open since former Fine Gael TD George Lee quit in February.
    Waterford has been left short a Dail representative since former minister Martin Cullen stepped down in March.

    Cowen and FF are skulking cowards of the lowest order.

    (Originally mentioned in Ah (here) but serve me right, a troll lurked)


Comments

  • #2
    oppenheimer1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,084 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    I'm getting a serious sense of deja vu with this thread? Is this a repost?

    The blame game is irrelevant tbh with the problems we now have. At least we're getting the house in order.


  • #3
    ChocolateSauce
    Registered Users Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭ChocolateSauce


    Biggins wrote: »
    Different day - Different story!

    Thursday: Fianna Fail made some mistakes, but I didn't: Cowen
    Friday: The Taoiseach has again acknowledged that he shares the blame for mistakes made by the Government during his time as Finance Minister and Taoiseach.

    Isn't it amazing what difference a day makes - but don't just take my word for it, see for yourself:

    * http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fianna-fail-made-some-mistakes-but-i-didnt-cowen-2179696.html
    and
    * http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0514/cownenb.html

    Such things can't be allowed pass without highlighting or comment.
    Irrespective of it being FF - FG - lab' or whom ever, it just goes to show the PR spin people are running politics.
    ...That and the daily dose of hypocrisy from day to day, depending on what time of the week it is!

    Meanwhile, still no sign of any of the three over due by-elections: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fg-pile-byelection-pressure-on-cowen-2181323.html

    Donegal South-West has had a Dail vacancy since Pat 'the Cope' Gallagher was elected MEP last June.
    Dublin South has been open since former Fine Gael TD George Lee quit in February.
    Waterford has been left short a Dail representative since former minister Martin Cullen stepped down in March.

    Cowen and FF are skulking cowards of the lowest order.

    (Originally mentioned in Ah (here) but serve me right, a troll lurked)


    You'll probably post something tomorrow about how great FF is.
    :pac:


  • #4
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    oppenheimer1 wrote: »
    ...At least we're getting the house in order.
    :confused:
    If the "house" is the Dail, it most certainly not in order!
    ChocolateSauce wrote: »
    You'll probably post something tomorrow about how great FF is.
    LOL - Don't hold your breath!"


  • #5
    ChocolateSauce
    Registered Users Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭ChocolateSauce


    oppenheimer1 wrote: »
    I'm getting a serious sense of deja vu with this thread? Is this a repost?

    The blame game is irrelevant tbh with the problems we now have. At least we're getting the house in order.

    It's a repost in the sense that loads of people have said they're fed up with FF. And a needed one; saying something once will never see it heeded. As for the house being in order, do you mean Ireland? For the sake of argument, even given that the house is in order, FF was just cleaning up after their own mess. Hardly commendable.


  • #6
    Coillte_Bhoy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,909 ✭✭✭Coillte_Bhoy


    oppenheimer1 wrote: »
    I'm getting a serious sense of deja vu with this thread? Is this a repost?

    The blame game is irrelevant tbh with the problems we now have. At least we're getting the house in order.

    Ya, we are where we are blah blah blah. You a FF supporter by the way?? Well whether you are or not you are completely deluded.


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  • #7
    InReality
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,374 ✭✭✭InReality


    Cowen himself said in that speech that we need to look at what happened to prevent it happening again. The rest of it is just impressive spin.


  • #8
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    oppenheimer1 wrote: »
    The blame game is irrelevant tbh with the problems we now have. At least we're getting the house in order.

    The blame game is far from irrelevant.

    If we are to restore any sense of credibility to Irish governance, be it internally or the view from outside, then those responsible need to be jailed.

    Would you be making the same statement if it were FG that had royally fcuked up ?


  • #9
    Andrew H
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 205 ✭✭Andrew H


    I for one as an Irish Citizen would like to see some people going to gaol for the way this Goverment has let down our Country.

    Be they members of the FAS board (including union representatives), corrupt Goverment Ministers or disgraced Bankers. White Collar crime needs to punished in Ireland.

    At the moment we have the Governors of the womens prison resigning on overcrowding issues (amongst other things) and the Governor of the mens prison retiring, who has been complaining of overcrowding issues since he first took office. It has been highlighted in the media over the past couple of weeks that members of the public are been imprisoned for Credit Card arrears and no Dog Licences while career criminals are free to walk around on Remand!


  • #10
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,104 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    oppenheimer1 wrote: »
    At least we're getting the house in order.
    Are we?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #11
    Spiritoftheseventies
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,082 ✭✭✭✭Spiritoftheseventies


    I have to ask but surely if the people elect their TD and then that seat is vacates, it should be filled ASAP in the best interests of the constituents. Its ludicrous that those three seats haven't been filled. This is an assaul on our democracy.


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  • #12
    hallelujajordan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,080 ✭✭✭hallelujajordan


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    The blame game is far from irrelevant.

    If we are to restore any sense of credibility to Irish governance, be it internally or the view from outside, then those responsible need to be jailed.

    For what crime ?

    I don't think we can go around putting people in jail because we don't think they did a very good job.

    In relation to the banking crisis, there are Garda investigstions ongoing and if it is possible to bring charges then they will be brought and people will go to jail.

    Agree with Oppenheimer, and not just because I am a Fianna Fail member and supporter. . I am happy to come on here and defend FF as robustly as I can but the same comments are being posted every other day in a slightly different format with a slightly different twist. . Its getting boring tbh . .


  • #13
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,128 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    For what crime ?

    I don't think we can go around putting people in jail because we don't think they did a very good job.

    In relation to the banking crisis, there are Garda investigstions ongoing and if it is possible to bring charges then they will be brought and people will go to jail.

    Agree with Oppenheimer, and not just because I am a Fianna Fail member and supporter. . I am happy to come on here and defend FF as robustly as I can but the same comments are being posted every other day in a slightly different format with a slightly different twist. . Its getting boring tbh . .

    They could start with criminal negligence, and I'm pretty sure that if enough digging is done, various other crimes can be added to the list.

    You may find FF bashing a tad boring, given that you're a fully paid supporter, but you'll have to get use to it, because there's a lot more to come.

    No-one can be allowed to forget what these idiots have done to the country.


  • #14
    oppenheimer1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,084 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    The blame game is far from irrelevant.

    If we are to restore any sense of credibility to Irish governance, be it internally or the view from outside, then those responsible need to be jailed.

    Would you be making the same statement if it were FG that had royally fcuked up ?


    Well yes they did, theres more than the national government involved in this mess. Most of the County Councils are FG controlled, and were during the boom. The blame for poor planning lies squarely with these people. However we can't turn back the clock.

    I don't believe FG would have done anything different either if they had been in power, they even called for the abolition of stamp duty.

    The deficit is being cut, so in that sense we are making progress. The cost of doing business here is falling, and outside factors like a weakening Euro and the likelihood of large tax rises in our nearest and biggest competitor will improve the situation for us. Unemployment has stabilised, and the economy has returned to growth albeit very modest, which is export led.

    The situation we find is far from rosy and we're in for at least a decade of austerity, with the rolling back of all the associated social progress.

    In much the same way people thought the good times would last forever, we have the same thing only people think its the bad times are here to stay.

    I think that we need a change to new politics, however I realise that that kind of change is hard to make. I want to clear out all the weak deputies in the Dáil. I want to see quality candidates, that have the qualifications and skills that are needed to run a country. I want an end to the country bumpkin publican sitting in Leinster house.


  • #15
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,128 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    oppenheimer1 wrote: »
    I want an end to the country bumpkin publican sitting in Leinster house.

    It will be a hell of a struggle to persuade other country bumpkins not to vote for them. Potential quality candidates wouldn't waste their time trying.

    Whilst political parties could possibly improve quality control in their candidate selection, the yokel pushed aside will stand as an independent. and be re-elected (no names mentioned or implied:rolleyes:).


  • #16
    aDeener
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,487 ✭✭✭aDeener


    oppenheimer1 wrote: »
    Well yes they did, theres more than the national government involved in this mess. Most of the County Councils are FG controlled, and were during the boom. The blame for poor planning lies squarely with these people. However we can't turn back the clock.

    I don't believe FG would have done anything different either if they had been in power, they even called for the abolition of stamp duty.

    The deficit is being cut, so in that sense we are making progress. The cost of doing business here is falling, and outside factors like a weakening Euro and the likelihood of large tax rises in our nearest and biggest competitor will improve the situation for us. Unemployment has stabilised, and the economy has returned to growth albeit very modest, which is export led.

    The situation we find is far from rosy and we're in for at least a decade of austerity, with the rolling back of all the associated social progress.

    In much the same way people thought the good times would last forever, we have the same thing only people think its the bad times are here to stay.

    I think that we need a change to new politics, however I realise that that kind of change is hard to make. I want to clear out all the weak deputies in the Dáil. I want to see quality candidates, that have the qualifications and skills that are needed to run a country. I want an end to the country bumpkin publican sitting in Leinster house.

    we might get pints at a daycent price then!


  • #17
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    Whilst political parties could possibly improve quality control in their candidate selection, the yokel pushed aside will stand as an independent. and be re-elected (no names mentioned or implied:rolleyes:).

    Improve quality control ? Sure they vote confidence in the biggest yokels and con-men around!


  • #18
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,128 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Improve quality control ? Sure they vote confidence in the biggest yokels and con-men around!

    I said "could possibly", but I should have added that it would probably only happen in a parallel universe.:(


  • #19
    hallelujajordan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,080 ✭✭✭hallelujajordan


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    They could start with criminal negligence, and I'm pretty sure that if enough digging is done, various other crimes can be added to the list.

    Is that a real crime or one you just made up to suit your point of view ? ? Is that how it works now. . we make up crimes to suit the mob ? ?


  • #20
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,128 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    Is that a real crime or one you just made up to suit your point of view ? ? Is that how it works now. . we make up crimes to suit the mob ? ?

    I was obviously mistaken when I assumed that the world and his dog had heard of criminal negligence.


  • #21
    hallelujajordan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,080 ✭✭✭hallelujajordan


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    I was obviously mistaken when I assumed that the world and his dog had heard of criminal negligence.

    I'm no lawyer so I won't pretend to be but a quick look on WIKI defines criminal negligence for you . .

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_negligence

    It isn't a crime . . it is a mens rea and for there to be a crime constituted there also needs to be an actus rea . . an actual criminal act . . (as opposed to a decision you don't like that you retrospectively define as negligent)
    In the criminal law, criminal negligence is one of the three general classes of mens rea (Latin for "guilty mind") element required to constitute a conventional as opposed to strict liability offense . . .

    . . . To constitute a crime, there must be an actus reus (Latin for "guilty act") accompanied by the mens rea (see concurrence). Negligence shows the least level of culpability, intention being the most serious and recklessness of intermediate seriousness, overlapping with gross negligence.


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  • #22
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,128 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    I'm no lawyer so I won't pretend to be but a quick look on WIKI defines criminal negligence for you . .

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_negligence

    It isn't a crime . . it is a mens rea and for there to be a crime constituted there also needs to be an actus rea . . an actual criminal act . . (as opposed to a decision you don't like that you retrospectively define as negligent)

    It is a crime, or no-one would be charged with it.


  • #23
    paddyland
    Closed Accounts Posts: 932 ✭✭✭paddyland


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    It is a crime, or no-one would be charged with it.

    Ah, give him a chance, he is trying to defend the FF party, and he's at the bottom of the barrel at this stage. Allow him his points of technicality...

    :)


  • #24
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,128 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    paddyland wrote: »
    Ah, give him a chance, he is trying to defend the FF party, and he's at the bottom of the barrel at this stage. Allow him his points of technicality...

    :)

    Give em an inch, and they take a mile.:P


  • #25
    hallelujajordan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,080 ✭✭✭hallelujajordan


    paddyland wrote: »
    Ah, give him a chance, he is trying to defend the FF party, and he's at the bottom of the barrel at this stage. Allow him his points of technicality...

    :)

    It's really more than just a point of technicality . . . . I am all for political debate; I really quite enjoy it and this forum is a good outlet for reasoned discussion . . most of the time.

    There are those who disagree with FF and how they have governed and I can accept that . . I can even agree with some of it . . It's clear that wrong decisions were made over the last 15 years and some of those decisions have contributed to the mess we are currently in.

    But there is also a 'mob' on here who refuse to have reasoned debate. .

    - Who blame FF for all our woes and refuse to accept the part the regular Irish citizen who suddenly became a regular Irish speculator played in the inflation of the bubble.

    - Who refuse to accept that FF were governing on the basis of a mandate provided by an Irish electorate who saw what they were getting, liked it and wanted more.

    - Who then go on to accuse FF TD's of 'criminal acts' and suggests they ought to go to jail - a pretty serious allegation.

    When confronted with the mob debate it is important to be clear on the technicalities.


  • #26
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,128 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    It's really more than just a point of technicality . . . . I am all for political debate; I really quite enjoy it and this forum is a good outlet for reasoned discussion . . most of the time.

    There are those who disagree with FF and how they have governed and I can accept that . . I can even agree with some of it . . It's clear that wrong decisions were made over the last 15 years and some of those decisions have contributed to the mess we are currently in.

    But there is also a 'mob' on here who refuse to have reasoned debate. .

    - Who blame FF for all our woes and refuse to accept the part the regular Irish citizen who suddenly became a regular Irish speculator played in the inflation of the bubble.

    - Who refuse to accept that FF were governing on the basis of a mandate provided by an Irish electorate who saw what they were getting, liked it and wanted more.

    - Who then go on to accuse FF TD's of 'criminal acts' and suggests they ought to go to jail - a pretty serious allegation.

    When confronted with the mob debate it is important to be clear on the technicalities.

    I agree.

    Matters arising from "mob" debates could inspire those more qualified to actually examine the situation, then prove one way or the other whether there's a case to answer by any politician.

    Unfortunately, that's not going to happen, because I don't think that any lawyers would risk their careers by taking on such a case.


  • #27
    ruthies
    Closed Accounts Posts: 85 ✭✭ruthies


    oppenheimer1 wrote: »
    I'm getting a serious sense of deja vu with this thread? Is this a repost?

    The blame game is irrelevant tbh with the problems we now have. At least we're getting the house in order.

    You or i have no say in the matter and the house is certainly not getting back in order.
    I dont get this how people are willing to Lay down and be trampled upon over and over again.
    Just because the fat cats say they are dealing with the problem people turn a blind eye once again.Sit back like couch potatoes and let it slide.
    I am sure the party members are keeping their house in order and i mean for their own personal house.:rolleyes:


  • #28
    hallelujajordan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,080 ✭✭✭hallelujajordan


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    I agree.

    Matters arising from "mob" debates could inspire those more qualified to actually examine the situation, then prove one way or the other whether there's a case to answer by any politician.

    Unfortunately, that's not going to happen, because I don't think that any lawyers would risk their careers by taking on such a case.

    Now this I can agree with . . However it is unfortunate that the 'mob' insist on convicting and calling for jail time without the due process you describe above. .

    We ought to remember that in the eyes of the law everyone is entitled to the presumption of innocence. .

    Don't agree with you on the latter comment . . we saw very well during the tribunals how the lawyers went after their political prey once they got the scent of blood


  • #29
    ruthies
    Closed Accounts Posts: 85 ✭✭ruthies


    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    Now this I can agree with . . However it is unfortunate that the 'mob' insist on convicting and calling for jail time without the due process you describe above. .

    We ought to remember that in the eyes of the law everyone is entitled to the presumption of innocence. .

    Don't agree with you on the latter comment . . we saw very well during the tribunals how the lawyers went after their political prey once they got the scent of blood

    What happened to them,slap on wrist?


  • #30
    hallelujajordan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,080 ✭✭✭hallelujajordan


    ruthies wrote: »
    What happened to them,slap on wrist?

    Well, those who were guilty of crimes (eg. Liam Lawlor, contempt of court) went to jail . . .

    I don't know that any others were ever found guilty of any crimes (not for the want of trying on the lawyers parts) but if they had been, the DPP would have considered, if they felt there was a chance of conviction they would have pressed charges, and if found guilty the perpetrator would be appropriately punished . . its called due process and we are all entitled to it.


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  • #31
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,128 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    Now this I can agree with . . However it is unfortunate that the 'mob' insist on convicting and calling for jail time without the due process you describe above. .

    We ought to remember that in the eyes of the law everyone is entitled to the presumption of innocence. .

    Don't agree with you on the latter comment . . we saw very well during the tribunals how the lawyers went after their political prey once they got the scent of blood

    During the tribunals, it was the scent of the fee that gave the lawyers the impetus.

    A lawyer taking on the entire government against the government's wishes, would be putting his career on the line, which is a completely different scenario to that of being involved in a government-backed tribunal.


  • #32
    hallelujajordan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,080 ✭✭✭hallelujajordan


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    During the tribunals, it was the scent of the fee that gave the lawyers the impetus.

    A lawyer taking on the entire government against the government's wishes, would be putting his career on the line, which is a completely different scenario to that of being involved in a government-backed tribunal.

    I don't agree but actually its a moot point. The willingness of the lawyers is irrelevant.

    What is relevant is whether or not the DPP have enough information to press charges. If they don't, they won't because to do otherwise would simply be a waste of public money.


  • #33
    ruthies
    Closed Accounts Posts: 85 ✭✭ruthies


    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    Well, those who were guilty of crimes (eg. Liam Lawlor, contempt of court) went to jail . . .

    I don't know that any others were ever found guilty of any crimes (not for the want of trying on the lawyers parts) but if they had been, the DPP would have considered, if they felt there was a chance of conviction they would have pressed charges, and if found guilty the perpetrator would be appropriately punished . . its called due process and we are all entitled to it.

    He did how long in prison? 28 days?
    Never said they aren't entitled to a trial,just somehow for me it comes across as alot of back scratching going on.
    R.I.P


  • #34
    hallelujajordan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,080 ✭✭✭hallelujajordan


    ruthies wrote: »
    He did how long in prison? 28 days?
    Never said they aren't entitled to a trial,just somehow for me it comes across as alot of back scratching going on.
    R.I.P

    He had three separate jail sentences . . I think each was about a week long. .


  • #35
    ruthies
    Closed Accounts Posts: 85 ✭✭ruthies


    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    He had three separate jail sentences . . I think each was about a week long. .

    That is nothing seriously think about it.I dont call that justice thats a smoke screen to look like its been served.


  • #36
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    Well, those who were guilty of crimes (eg. Liam Lawlor, contempt of court) went to jail . . .

    I don't know that any others were ever found guilty of any crimes (not for the want of trying on the lawyers parts) but if they had been, the DPP would have considered, if they felt there was a chance of conviction they would have pressed charges, and if found guilty the perpetrator would be appropriately punished . . its called due process and we are all entitled to it.

    I actually agree with this, however there are 2 issues that make me extremely sceptical that there is any desire to see actual justice done.

    1) The tribunals have a very narrow frame of reference, so someone "innocent" of the tribunal's remit could still easily be guilty

    2) FF vote "confidence" in the most extraordinary cases, and claim "witch hunt" if anyone investigates (and if anyone tries to actually act on the original spirit of the so-called "Freedom" of Information Act) and therefore any lawyer or journalist would be taking their life in their hands if they were to even attempt to investigate these things properly.....they also probably wouldn't have the budget for the "Freedom" of Information Act alone.

    And if you're defending decisions made by FF as mere "mistakes", then answer me these two questions

    1) how big does a "mistake" have to be in order to make someone unfit for office ?

    2) would minutes of "that" meeting with the banks clear the air and prove that everything was above board ? If so, why didn't FF bother to keep any, since it would have ensured that those of us who hold them to account (read: "witch-hunt") would have absolutely no basis to question their actions ?


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  • #37
    hallelujajordan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,080 ✭✭✭hallelujajordan


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    I actually agree with this, however there are 2 issues that make me extremely sceptical that there is any desire to see actual justice done.

    1) The tribunals have a very narrow frame of reference, so someone "innocent" of the tribunal's remit could still easily be guilty
    The terms of reference are set narrow but both the Mahon tribunal and the Moriarty tribunal have (rightly) gone way beyond their terms of reference in digging . . thats why they have taken so long and cost so much

    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    2) FF vote "confidence" in the most extraordinary cases, and claim "witch hunt" if anyone investigates (and if anyone tries to actually act on the original spirit of the so-called "Freedom" of Information Act) and therefore any lawyer or journalist would be taking their life in their hands if they were to even attempt to investigate these things properly.....they also probably wouldn't have the budget for the "Freedom" of Information Act alone.
    It's up to FF to decide who they have confidence in and its up to the electorate to confirm or deny that confidence . . that's just democracy and it has little to do with the 'criminal / jail-time' allegations in question . .
    In addition, do you really think that the FoI act makes information unaffordable for the likes of the Sunday Independent or the Mail on Sunday ?
    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    And if you're defending decisions made by FF as mere "mistakes", then answer me these two questions

    1) how big does a "mistake" have to be in order to make someone unfit for office ?
    Surely that is up to each person when they enter the polling booth. Judgement comes from the people . . that is true democracy


  • #38
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    The terms of reference are set narrow but both the Mahon tribunal and the Moriarty tribunal have (rightly) gone way beyond their terms of reference in digging . . thats why they have taken so long and cost so much

    Am I allowed LMAO in politics ?

    They "took so long" because of so many FF members' delaying tactics, and the fact that former Taoisigh couldn't be arsed giving a straight answer and had to be dragged back kicking and screaming.

    Also, the findings were due "early this year" - still no sign.
    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    It's up to FF to decide who they have confidence in and its up to the electorate to confirm or deny that confidence . . that's just democracy and it has little to do with the 'criminal / jail-time' allegations in question . .

    Nothing to do with democracy at present; if the country re-elects FF, I'll concede that argument and emigrate, but at the moment most of the worst scandals have come to light since the last election, and so people weren't given a chance to vote on them.....indeed, Cowen is even preventing people from voting on them as I type.
    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    In addition, do you really think that the FoI act makes information unaffordable for the likes of the Sunday Independent or the Mail on Sunday ?

    Considering the bank meeting isn't even covered, I'd consider it priceless.
    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    Surely that is up to each person when they enter the polling booth. Judgement comes from the people . . that is true democracy

    It will be, and like I said above whenever we're given the opportunity to vote, I'll accept that people now know the scope of the scandals and incompetence and should be able to decide for themselves, and that that vote will dictate whether this is an Ireland I want to be a part of.

    But at the moment, no - it is not "true democracy", especially since 3 constituencies aren't even being given the chance to engage in democracy.


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