Ulster Banking Crisis

tallus · 28-06-2012 8:48am

Got mine last week....nothing in this week. They still took charges for missed direct debits through no fault of my own.

Wibbs · 28-06-2012 8:58am

Feelgood wrote: »

I work in IT too and have worked in banking and financial institutions during my career.

Most of the IT systems in place in banks these days are unbelievable robust. Data is replicated between multiple sites, high availability software, torage area networks that can restore data in minutes. These systems are designed to prevent downtime and quickly recover from a disaster scenario.

Before changes are made to any IT system, the first thing that happens is critical backup/restore point. That way if you mess something up during a change, all you have to is restore from your backup. If a dodgy change was made, I would expect it to take a maximum of 24 hours to roll back.

There is no way it would take this long to restore from an incident like this. There is definitely a lot more to this story than Ulster bank are letting on, I reckon they were hacked too.

I've also heard this more than once from people well versed in IT security, not just the drunk in the pub who installed windows once. The "oh a patch went wrong" explanation seems very odd to me, for all the reasons you gave, never mind the long delay in fixing it, a delay that's increasing.

Pottler wrote: »

I wonder if the banks computers are not as secure as they thought and perhaps someone is exploiting that? There's definitly a lad sitting in a bunker somwhere on an island, stroking a cat while techies furiously pound keyboards, hoovering up the worlds dosh. Well, maybe not, but maybe..

maybe indeed... Credit card fraud is up 69% since 09 even with all the new security features. I had my CC hit. 500 odd quid was taken in a shop in some small town in the US of A. How the hell did they do that then? The bank were laudably quick at refunding the money, with little enough explanation from me. They weren't so quick at telling me how some gimp was able to get my name, my CC number and my chip and pin number halfway across the world.

It's not that the banks aren't secure, it's just that it doesn't require vast resources to put together a desktop computer or network of them to number crunch passwords etc. Ill make a prediction now, that in a few years time your passwords are going to be huge, or generated ina different more complex way. Gone will be the days when the name of your first born will suffice.

I'm quite sure government agencies have looked at targeting banks in "unfriendly nations". Not unlike the virus that showed up in the Iranian government computer systems. What better way to cause mass panic and destabilise a society than to lock up e money and create no confidence in local financial institutions? This Ulster bank situation may not be such an attack, but we will see such in our lifetimes I reckon.

NiallFH · 28-06-2012 9:00am

I'm with them and wouldnt bother leaving, I had money in my account prior to it so it hasn't had any effect on me really. If it had though I still don't think I would change though, I have never had any bother with them before this.

Also I used to be with the Abbey (Santander) and they were a pain. Also the people working in the branch near me all seemed depressed lol

Cee-Jay-Cee · 28-06-2012 9:00am

dee. wrote: »

Mine was working this morning, now it won't load anything except my available balance. They could confirm the money was taken from my account but thats the most they could help...great service

Spend away yourself and then claim it wasnt you and have it refunded. That'll learn them not to utilise 40yr old computer systems and get rid of all their senior IT engineers in an effort to cut costs!

wilkie2006 · 28-06-2012 9:03am

I'm with Natwest (also part of the RBS group) and, although it's been a pain int the arse, I'm not going to bother changing banks. If it happens again I won't be as forgiving though.

Apparently people are more likely to get divorced than to change their banks:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/feb/05/in-praise-of-switching-your-bank

What do the bankers do – work tirelessly on your behalf, or work for themselves on your money? We have an option – to move our money, but few of us actually do. In fact, we are more likely to divorce than change our bank account, and this despite a growing list of grievances.

Plazaman · 28-06-2012 9:03am

I think this highlights how much Ulster Bank are behind the times with their systems and work practices. As had been stated in previous posts every new update to a payments system always should ensure the old (working) system is on standby to rollback to at a moments notice.

I'm not a customer of Ulster Bank but did wander in to their branch on two occasions as it's the nearest bank to my workplace and it was lunchtime. The first time I wanted to get a Bank Draft and the second time I wanted to buy dollars. On both occasions I was refused service as I didn't have an account even though I had cash for both transactions in my hand.

On the second occasion I asked what if I was a tourist coming over to change money. "No problem", says the snotty cow behind the counter, "we convert foreign currency to Euros but don't sell it to non account holders". Due to it being a small enough branch, the walk to the door through the queue of customers was rather embarrassing. So fúck you Ulster Bank, delighted for your troubles*

*P.S. This delight does not carry forward to their customers who I feel sorry for at being highly inconvenienced and told nothing.

Shenshen · 28-06-2012 9:07am

listermint wrote: »

Of course updates can go wrong, thats why you have rollback, it DOESNT take a week for rollback. At best your talking a number of extremely sweaty hours.

Something isnt right here.

I agree, the fact that the rollback wasn't possible is fishy.

However, I have lived through a rather similar disaster in a previous job - huge IT company with server famrs all across Europe. There was a power cut in the Italian server farm one day, which was no big deal as there were generators providing backup electricity. Not a glitch in services.
The problem occured once the power retruned - there was a surge, and the server farm caught fire. As I understnad, there wasn't a lot left of the servers once the fire had been put out.
Not a problem either, you would think. There were backup servers, after all.

There were back up servers, all right. In the same building as the live ones, just across the corridor.

It took us nearly a month to get operations for Italy back to anywhere near normal.

Now, a hack is definitely possible. But then, so is a massive cock-up.

smash · 28-06-2012 9:13am

Shenshen wrote: »

My husband is with AIB, anything he transfers from his account to somewhere else takes around 10 days to come through.

Well that's not true, or it's other bank's problems because AIB-AIB is instant and AIB-BOI is 2 days. I know because I do it. However BOI-AIB takes a week.

mimsy · 28-06-2012 9:15am

Plazaman wrote: »

I think this highlights how much Ulster Bank are behind the times with their systems and work practices. As had been stated in previous posts every new update to a payments system always should ensure the old (working) system is on standby to rollback to at a moments notice.

I'm not a customer of Ulster Bank but did wander in to their branch on two occasions as it's the nearest bank to my workplace and it was lunchtime. The first time I wanted to get a Bank Draft and the second time I wanted to buy dollars. On both occasions I was refused service as I didn't have an account even though I had cash for both transactions in my hand.

On the second occasion I asked what if I was a tourist coming over to change money. "No problem", says the snotty cow behind the counter, "we convert foreign currency to Euros but don't sell it to non account holders". Due to it being a small enough branch, the walk to the door through the queue of customers was rather embarrassing. So fúck you Ulster Bank, delighted for your troubles*

*P.S. This delight does not carry forward to their customers who I feel sorry for at being highly inconvenienced and told nothing.

To be fair, I worked in a UK based branch of a different Irish bank 15 years ago and the policy of issuing bank drafts only to customers was existent then due to money laundering guidelines.
I would not expect it to have changed in the interim.

listermint · 28-06-2012 9:17am

Shenshen wrote: »

I agree, the fact that the rollback wasn't possible is fishy.

However, I have lived through a rather similar disaster in a previous job - huge IT company with server famrs all across Europe. There was a power cut in the Italian server farm one day, which was no big deal as there were generators providing backup electricity. Not a glitch in services.
The problem occured once the power retruned - there was a surge, and the server farm caught fire. As I understnad, there wasn't a lot left of the servers once the fire had been put out.
Not a problem either, you would think. There were backup servers, after all.

There were back up servers, all right. In the same building as the live ones, just across the corridor.

It took us nearly a month to get operations for Italy back to anywhere near normal.

Now, a hack is definitely possible. But then, so is a massive cock-up.

Thats not a backup, true backup is off site. Its called disaster recovery and any IT organisation worth its salt uses it. Shared global international data.

I dont understand how a large organisation with multiple data centres would allow its backups to be stored within the same facility

listermint · 28-06-2012 9:18am

smash wrote: »

Well that's not true, or it's other bank's problems because AIB-AIB is instant and AIB-BOI is 2 days. I know because I do it. However BOI-AIB takes a week.

Also not true, ive had this in 2days 3 days tops.

Shenshen · 28-06-2012 9:20am

listermint wrote: »

Thats not a backup, true backup is off site. Its called disaster recovery and any IT organisation worth its salt uses it. Shared global international data.

I dont understand how a large organisation with multiple data centres would allow its backups to be stored within the same facility

Well, we were working on the internal IT helpdesk at the time, and we certainly didn't understand it either.

Much of the data stored on those servers was never ever recovered, I've no idea how much that actually cost the company. What was recovered came from local copies that some employees had to work offline now and again.

After that experience, IT cock-ups just don't surprise me all that much any more.

A_Sober_Paddy · 28-06-2012 9:39am

I'm hearing the other banks are sh!t argument a bit...

I've had an account with BOI in the past and had a trouble with it setting up a standing order, but that was it. Since close that account, I still have a BOI account, it has about €20 in it, and I'd be shocked if I've used it twice in the last 12 months...

Just my CU for my banking needs these days, which I do have many to be fair...

But the way I save money and keep cash on hand, If this happened my bank I'd not be as put out by it as many people currently are. But in saying that, If my bank had such a massive fcuk up, I'd be losing a lot of confidence and I'd be out.

Of all the people's accounts that have been overdrawn, will they be charged for getting overdrawn because of the banks feck up? How many people might be late for rent this week/month because of the bank? How will there landlord react?

28-06-2012 9:44am

A_Sober_Paddy wrote: »

Of all the people's accounts that have been overdrawn, will they be charged for getting overdrawn because of the banks feck up? How many people might be late for rent this week/month because of the bank? How will there landlord react?

no charges/any charges will be refunded

A_Sober_Paddy · 28-06-2012 9:51am

bluewolf wrote: »

no charges/any charges will be refunded

But did the same bank say last week that the situation would be sorted by Monday?

28-06-2012 9:55am

A_Sober_Paddy wrote: »

But did the same bank say last week that the situation would be sorted by Monday?

they're embarrassed enough as it is, they're not going to have the nerve to actually insist on these charges

fishy fishy · 28-06-2012 9:59am

Dr.Strange wrote: »

Oh, I was under the impression that the online banking system wasn't working.

Mine certainly isn't anyway!

it shows what you have used your card for - those deductions come off - that side of things is not affected.

fishy fishy · 28-06-2012 10:01am

hairyprincess wrote: »

If it had been handled better with more information to the customers and if it hasn't gone on as long then I wouldn't leave but as it is they are taking the piss.

I'm out.

where you gonna go, Bank of Ireland (rofl) AIB (rofl even more). Ulster Bank is the best bank to go to - the other two a daylight robbers and make no bones about it either. If you do leave you won't be long returning.

Shenshen · 28-06-2012 10:02am

A_Sober_Paddy wrote: »

But did the same bank say last week that the situation would be sorted by Monday?

I've contacted our mortgage provider yesterday, to let them know that since my account is with Ulster. there could be a delay in the Direct Debit for the morntgage this month.

The lady on the phone told me that so far, no Direct Debits had been turned down by Ulster Bank yet, all had been paid.
She said she suspected Ulster Bank simply paying out, to later consolidate with the customers' accounts.

wilkie2006 · 28-06-2012 10:10am

Plazaman wrote: »

I think this highlights how much Ulster Bank are behind the times with their systems and work practices. As had been stated in previous posts every new update to a payments system always should ensure the old (working) system is on standby to rollback to at a moments notice.

No, it doesn't. That's an outrageous statement. Ulster Bank are part of the RBS group, one of the major banking institutions in the world. Yes, they fcuked up but it's not indicative of them being "behind the times".

wilkie2006 · 28-06-2012 10:11am

bluewolf wrote: »

no charges/any charges will be refunded

Are you sure? Natwest said they will.

runawaybishop · 28-06-2012 10:15am

wilkie2006 wrote: »

No, it doesn't. That's an outrageous statement. Ulster Bank are part of the RBS group, one of the major banking institutions in the world. Yes, they fcuked up but it's not indicative of them being "behind the times".

Aren't most banks systems horrible legacy pieces of crap?

Quazzie · 28-06-2012 10:22am

What I find interesting is that we the taxpayers own several banks in Ireland thanks to the ridiculous bank guarantee, and we also own the HSE and the AGS, but both the AGS and HSE both use Ulster Bank. Why would our government bank with a bank owned outside of the state?

Tomk1 · 28-06-2012 10:23am

Plazaman wrote: »

I think this highlights how much Ulster Bank are behind the times with their systems and work practices. As had been stated in previous posts every new update to a payments system always should ensure the old (working) system is on standby to rollback to at a moments notice.

I don't know anything about banking systems, and passing judgement from speculation doesn't = proof. Not sure what system your futuristic bank uses, all I can speculate is, it will be sorted out, I just think the media has a slow news week.

BTW I got a visa-debit from UB 2 years ago, kind of supprised that those other two banks, which I grew to detest and eventually walked away from, are only now rolling out these cards.

Even if the bank was system-hacked or someone pressed the DELiver key, don't think it really matters which bank your with. -maybe it was the Y2K12 bug.

Plazaman wrote: »

I'm not a customer of Ulster Bank

Maybe you should begrudginly try them.

Plazaman wrote: »

*P.S. This delight does not carry forward to their customers who I feel sorry for at being highly inconvenienced and told nothing.

I'm a customer and very happy, it's not like they have shut up shop, or stealing money from my account.

Shenshen · 28-06-2012 10:23am

wilkie2006 wrote: »

Are you sure? Natwest said they will.

Says so on their website.

Shenshen · 28-06-2012 10:26am

Quazzie wrote: »

What I find interesting is that we the taxpayers own several banks in Ireland thanks to the ridiculous bank guarantee, and we also own the HSE and the AGS, but both the AGS and HSE both use Ulster Bank. Why would our government bank with a bank owned outside of the state?

Cause it's cheaper?

listermint · 28-06-2012 11:11am

fishy fishy wrote: »

where you gonna go, Bank of Ireland (rofl) AIB (rofl even more). Ulster Bank is the best bank to go to - the other two a daylight robbers and make no bones about it either. If you do leave you won't be long returning.

Never had an issue with BOI and ive been with them about 16 years or so. just havent had an issue at all. Id have no problem hopping banks if it was necessary but it hasnt been.

Sure i change insurance companies every 12 months on the dot.

Odysseus · 28-06-2012 11:21am

I a HSE worker, and I was just glad to see my money had made it to my Ptsb account this morning. You could see the stress on peoples faces devlope as Thursday approached.

mimsy · 28-06-2012 11:24am

Shenshen wrote: »

Quazzie wrote: »

What I find interesting is that we the taxpayers own several banks in Ireland thanks to the ridiculous bank guarantee, and we also own the HSE and the AGS, but both the AGS and HSE both use Ulster Bank. Why would our government bank with a bank owned outside of the state?

Cause it's cheaper?

And look where that's gotten them!

Shenshen · 28-06-2012 11:29am

mimsy wrote: »

And look where that's gotten them!

So your argument is that any public institution should always go for the most expensive service providers?

Quazzie · 28-06-2012 11:36am

Shenshen wrote: »

Cause it's cheaper?

If they control the price, how can it be cheaper?

Shenshen · 28-06-2012 11:40am

Quazzie wrote: »

If they control the price, how can it be cheaper?

Very good question.
Why do BOI and AIB charge for a current account, as well as transaction fees?

Quazzie · 28-06-2012 11:42am

Shenshen wrote: »

Very good question.
Why do BOI and AIB charge for a current account, as well as transaction fees?

Because they need to make money. My question is, if the same people own both sides of the transaction then there'd be no way that UB can better one of the state owned banks for price, so why are the HSE and AGS banking with UB?

Shenshen · 28-06-2012 11:48am

Quazzie wrote: »

Because they need to make money. My question is, if the same people own both sides of the transaction then there'd be no way that UB can better one of the state owned banks for price, so why are the HSE and AGS banking with UB?

Well, UB doesn't charge for a current account, nor for transactions.
BOI and AIB generally do.

So if I was the HSE or AGS, having to strech my fundings as far as possible, I would go with Ulster.

Quazzie · 28-06-2012 11:51am

Shenshen wrote: »

Well, UB doesn't charge for a current account, nor for transactions.
BOI and AIB generally do.

So if I was the HSE or AGS, having to strech my fundings as far as possible, I would go with Ulster.

Are you deliberately trying to be obtuse? The State Owned banks decide who much to charge the State owned HSE, so why are they charging themselves essentially more than UB are?

Shenshen · 28-06-2012 11:58am

Quazzie wrote: »

Are you deliberately trying to be obtuse? The State Owned banks decide who much to charge the State owned HSE, so why are they charging themselves essentially more than UB are?

How would I know?
You asked why the HSC would bank with Ulster Bank, and I told you that it was most likely due to the fact that Ulster charges far less than any other bank.

I've no idea why the Irish owned banks charge for things that almost all European banks provide for free. You will have to ask someone else that.

My suspicion is they do it because they know that people hardly ever change their bank, so no matter what they charge, the customers will pay up. And since they already have the biggest customer base, there's little need to attract new buisiness.

Quazzie · 28-06-2012 12:02pm

Shenshen wrote: »

How would I know?
You asked why the HSC would bank with Ulster Bank, and I told you that it was most likely due to the fact that Ulster charges far less than any other bank.

I've no idea why the Irish owned banks charge for things that almost all European banks provide for free. You will have to ask someone else that.

My suspicion is they do it because they know that people hardly ever change their bank, so no matter what they charge, the customers will pay up. And since they already have the biggest customer base, there's little need to attract new buisiness.

I'll break it down for you in the simplest terms I can. I have a tenner in one pocket. I need to give it to two people. I can put it in my other pocket for free before giving it the people, or I can put it in someone else's pocket to give to the people, but they'll make some money off of it before giving it over. Why didn't I just put it in my own pocket and keep the interest myself.

Shenshen · 28-06-2012 12:05pm

Quazzie wrote: »

I'll break it down for you in the simplest terms I can. I have a tenner in one pocket. I need to give it to two people. I can put it in my other pocket for free before giving it the people, or I can put it in someone else's pocket to give to the people, but they'll make some money off of it before giving it over. Why didn't I just put it in my own pocket and keep the interest myself.

I would advise you to ask your TD, rather than an internet forum.
I don't think a lot of posters here will be intimately familiar with BOI or AIB's rules and regulations when it comes to wiping fees.

suicide_circus · 28-06-2012 12:05pm

Some serious ulster bank fan boys on here!
Wouldn't be surprised if ye said "i'm just going to the ULSTER bank" similar to the"i just have to make a call on my iphone "

Quazzie · 28-06-2012 12:06pm

Shenshen wrote: »

I would advise you to ask your TD, rather than an internet forum.
I don't think a lot of posters here will be intimately familiar with BOI or AIB's rules and regulations when it comes to wiping fees.

It was a hypothetical question to begin with.

delta_bravo · 28-06-2012 12:09pm

With regards to the hse contract, ulster got it around 2007, prior to state intervention in aib and boi

Odysseus · 28-06-2012 12:16pm

Quazzie wrote: »

Because they need to make money. My question is, if the same people own both sides of the transaction then there'd be no way that UB can better one of the state owned banks for price, so why are the HSE and AGS banking with UB?

The HSE does not own any bank, same with AGS. The banks the State own run themselves, the State cannot interfer in the normal day to day running of them. My understanding inanway. In other words the State cannot tell a State owned bank to do a cheaper deal with say the HSE.

That is like some person thinking they pay my HSE wages because they paid tax, or that as a State worker I pay no tax. Our taxes go into a central fund.

beerbaron · 28-06-2012 12:17pm

Quazzie wrote: »

Why didn't I just put it in my own pocket and keep the interest myself.

Does your pocket have gaping holes ?

mrsdewinter · 28-06-2012 12:18pm

wilkie2006 wrote: »

No, it doesn't. That's an outrageous statement. Ulster Bank are part of the RBS group, one of the major banking institutions in the world. Yes, they fcuked up but it's not indicative of them being "behind the times".

Yeah, I'm not sure Plazaman can say that with much legitimacy at all. I've been with Ulster Bank for 9 years and as peed off as I am with the current situation, I've always found them terrific to deal with.
It seemed to me that they were more innovative than the larger Irish banks, and that their smaller share of the market allowed them to be more nimble in introducing new measures, such as the Visa Debit card.

Quazzie · 28-06-2012 12:19pm

beerbaron wrote: »

Does your pocket have gaping holes ?

If they do, whatever money falls out, will stay in Ireland instead of being shipped off to the UK.

mrsdewinter · 28-06-2012 12:21pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

Some serious ulster bank fan boys on here!
Wouldn't be surprised if ye said "i'm just going to the ULSTER bank" similar to the"i just have to make a call on my iphone "

Riiiiight....

Mr Simpson · 28-06-2012 12:32pm

Quazzie wrote: »

Shenshen wrote: »

Well, UB doesn't charge for a current account, nor for transactions.
BOI and AIB generally do.

So if I was the HSE or AGS, having to strech my fundings as far as possible, I would go with Ulster.

Are you deliberately trying to be obtuse? The State Owned banks decide who much to charge the State owned HSE, so why are they charging themselves essentially more than UB are?

Its the same as revenue charging the guards vrt and vat for their fleet. I would put money on that the state owned banks charge the state agencies the same as other business customers.

suicide_circus · 28-06-2012 12:34pm

mrsdewinter wrote: »

Riiiiight....

Just a lot of people singing their praises and biggi ng them up which is pretty unusual for a parasitic institutions such as a bank.

Plazaman · 28-06-2012 12:35pm

wilkie2006 wrote: »

No, it doesn't. That's an outrageous statement. Ulster Bank are part of the RBS group, one of the major banking institutions in the world. Yes, they fcuked up but it's not indicative of them being "behind the times".

Maybe their payments system are on a par but certainly their PR Department is not is what expected off a major multinational as they are getting hammered press wise

Tomk1 wrote: »

I don't know anything about banking systems, and passing judgement from speculation doesn't = proof. Not sure what system your futuristic bank uses, all I can speculate is, it will be sorted out, I just think the media has a slow news week.

Schadenfraude on my part but damn it, I like jumping the gun it keeps me fit.

A slow news week maybe, but when a couple of hundred thousand people don't get money I think it's a news story and Martin/Lizzie's handshake knocked it off front page today but it'll keep running until all is resolved.

As I said above about the PR side with little or conflicting information coming from them, fuel is added to the fire. It'll be fixed by Friday, no Monday, by the weekend.... It was caused by a lad in India, no it wasn't....

No doubt lessons will be learned for ALL banks (except for my futuristic one, a microchip in the hand acts as my credit although when I give someone a high five I transfer €20 to their account so that'll have to be looked at I suppose).

Quazzie · 28-06-2012 12:37pm

mmcn90 wrote: »

Its the same as revenue charging the guards vrt and vat for their fleet. I would put money on that the state owned banks charge the state agencies the same as other business customers.

It isn't really though. It'd be more like the Revenue allowing the Guards to pay VRT and VAT the British Exchequer.*

*based on the assumption that there is a choice

Ulster Banking Crisis

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