Men and masculinity, including discussing raising boys

iptba · 17-03-2014 3:16am #1

I read two articles today which I thought were interesting enough and thought would make for an interesting discussion (and I didn't see a thread they'd easily fit into):

"Boys Don’t Cry" (March 13)
http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/boys-dont-cry-gmp/

Sub-heading: Reid Wilson believes we must redefine toughness and what it says about 21st century masculinity, especially when it comes to our boys. Here’s why and how.

"Men Are Just As Sensitive As Women" (March 13)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sarah-fader/men-are-just-as-sensitive-as-women_b_4879829.html

I'm not sure about one part in the second article:

If you can't remember the last time you cried, that's a problem. That means that you're repressing genuine emotions.

I imagine there's a spectrum of how much people cry. Also, something may have made you sad at one stage, but you may have learned to adapt to it, so a similar situation arises, you might be better prepared to deal with it and less likely to cry? So, as I say, I'm not sure about that claim. Maybe other people have some thoughts.

Sleepy · 21-03-2014 11:04am

If you can't remember the last time you cried, that's a problem. That means that you're repressing genuine emotions.

I couldn't disagree with this more. Mastering one's emotions does not equal repressing them. I consider it a positive thing that one can feel sadness without the need to descend into a blubbering mess and dislike the trait to do so in both men and women. I see it as a futile attempt to temporarily escape from reality instead of trying to accept it and / or take the necessary actions to change it.

Maybe I'm old fashioned but I'd see stoicism as a positive trait of masculinity.

banquo · 21-03-2014 1:20pm

Traditionally, male aggression - which has positive and negative sides - was regulated amongst men by older men and father figures. So you do need a certain amount of patriarchy amongst men as a path for young men to grow healthily along.

The younger man who wants to constantly go to war with the people who cross him is kept in check by the older man who knows better. Self-control is a huge part of male development, and I'd agree that stoicism is a positive trait of masculinity, and makes a man strong enough to care for the people around him.

banquo · 21-03-2014 1:21pm

I'd also strongly recommend Robert Bly's book "Iron John" as very interesting reading, if not a bit old at this stage.

Mike747 · 21-03-2014 1:34pm

Sleepy wrote: »

I couldn't disagree with this more. Mastering one's emotions does not equal repressing them. I consider it a positive thing that one can feel sadness without the need to descend into a blubbering mess and dislike the trait to do so in both men and women. I see it as a futile attempt to temporarily escape from reality instead of trying to accept it and / or take the necessary actions to change it.

Maybe I'm old fashioned but I'd see stoicism as a positive trait of masculinity.

It's an article written by a woman about men. They'll never understand us and we'll never understand them.

Thing is, if a man wrote an article saying women should do this or do that, the fem mob would be howling for blood.

silverbolt · 21-03-2014 2:17pm

Sleepy wrote: »

I couldn't disagree with this more. Mastering one's emotions does not equal repressing them. I consider it a positive thing that one can feel sadness without the need to descend into a blubbering mess and dislike the trait to do so in both men and women. I see it as a futile attempt to temporarily escape from reality instead of trying to accept it and / or take the necessary actions to change it.

Maybe I'm old fashioned but I'd see stoicism as a positive trait of masculinity.

Crying is healthy though, ever had a good cry and felt better after it? ITs both a physical and emotional release, it allows people to deal with the worst of it and then try to look more logically at a situation.

It is partly this stoicsim and this image that men should just grin and bear it that means we do not try to seek help when they need it (and im guilty of it as well). Men can and do be victims of things like domestic abuse (both physical and emotional) but because men are just supposed to put up and shut up means that many dont do anything about it.

There is stoicism and being there for people and then theres just being obtuse with your only justification that i have a penis and therefore i must be obstinate.

Pawwed Rig · 21-03-2014 2:46pm

silverbolt wrote: »

ever had a good cry and felt better after it?

Honestly speaking No I don't find it a release and never felt better after it. I find it completely draining generally as the situations where you would be liable to cry would only be at the extreme end of the emotional scale. Crying is a loss of control similar to anger or laughing.

iptba · 21-03-2014 2:56pm

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Crying is a loss of control similar to anger or laughing.

Maybe laughing is a loss of control, but I think it's healthy to laugh now and again.

Pawwed Rig · 21-03-2014 3:01pm

iptba wrote: »

Maybe laughing is a loss of control, but I think it's healthy to laugh now and again.

Agreed but not really the point I was trying to make.

Seriously? · 22-03-2014 4:49pm

Sleepy wrote: »

I couldn't disagree with this more. Mastering one's emotions does not equal repressing them. I consider it a positive thing that one can feel sadness without the need to descend into a blubbering mess and dislike the trait to do so in both men and women.

I don't believe there is anything wrong with a man crying, tears are nothing to be ashamed of in the right circumstances. But I do agree that letting your emotions get the run of you is not something which should be encouraged.

Sleepy wrote: »

Maybe I'm old fashioned but I'd see stoicism as a positive trait of masculinity.

I don't believe stoicism in the strict sense of the word is a positive male trait (I'm not sure it even is one, just more feminist propoganda ie. males can't empathise because they don't acknowledge emotion), but mastering your emotions most definately is a positive male trait.

iptba · 22-03-2014 5:02pm

My guess is one of the reasons it was seen as less acceptable for males to cry was it then made it easier to use them as cannon fodder in wars and the like.

Seriously? · 22-03-2014 6:16pm

iptba wrote: »

My guess is one of the reasons it was seen as less acceptable for males to cry was it then made it easier to use them as cannon fodder in wars and the like.

Absolutely it suits the system to indocrinate such thinking.

On a side note I happened to notice a video on the voice for men site that while specifically dealing with black men and MGTOW does touch upon the role society has in shaping expectations of what men should be.

I'd be in some agreement with them that MGTOW really offers possiblly one of the best avenues for young men (and those of us not so young) to deal with a toxic society and force change in it. Like I said the topic is specifically black men, but there are lessons there for all men.

http://www.avoiceformen.com/sexual-politics/m-g-t-o-w/black-man-save-yourself/

Sleepy · 23-03-2014 11:21pm

silverbolt wrote: »

Crying is healthy though, ever had a good cry and felt better after it? ITs both a physical and emotional release, it allows people to deal with the worst of it and then try to look more logically at a situation.

Honestly, no. I tend to just go straight to the looking at things logically and determining a course of action. The release to any problem for me is finding the solution to it or, at worst, finding a way of minimizing the damage. Speaking in very general terms (and IIRC how that old tome "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus) put it) this seems to be a fairly general Male trait: to find solutions rather than the more feminine trait of empathising with the person suffering the problem or finding someone to provide them with that empathy while they "have a good cry" about it.

I'm not sure I can ever agree that teaching children (of either sex) that the latter is the "correct" approach to any problem. No, there's nothing wrong with it when faced with genuinely hard times (bereavement, terminal illness etc. but if we teach our children to react to such ordinary life events such as minor car accidents, bad exam results or life just generally not living up to their expectations by breaking down and "having a good cry about it" I have to be honest and admit I think we're teaching them to be weak.

My view is that life is too short to spend it wallowing over problems of the past. Perhaps in some ways it's worth having both views though: some who are capable of acting when things are hard and others to indulge themselves in experiencing the sorrow. After all, while society needs some who can act when the situation demands it (e.g. leaders, emergency personnel etc.) it also needs artists to create beautiful works of art about the misery they're experiencing...

iptba · 23-03-2014 11:43pm

Sleepy wrote: »

I'm not sure I can ever agree that teaching children (of either sex) that the latter is the "correct" approach to any problem. No, there's nothing wrong with it when faced with genuinely hard times (bereavement, terminal illness etc. but if we teach our children to react to such ordinary life events such as minor car accidents, bad exam results or life just generally not living up to their's expectations by breaking down and "having a good cry about it" I have to be honest and admit I think we're teaching them to be rather pathetic people.

I think a lot of people will grow out of crying for most things naturally without having to direct them.

tsiehta · 27-03-2014 9:27pm

I've always found crying very therapeutic, and that it helps clear my head. I find it interesting hearing from men that don't find it helpful at all.

I wouldn't endorse crying every time something goes wrong. There's a lot to be said for mental fortitude and rationality when ****ty things happen. Sometimes, however, there are just times in our lives when things happen to us which are just overwhelming. Sometimes they're big issues on they're own, and sometimes they're a culmination of a lot of little things. I think there's a balance between a reasonable level of stoicism, because shit happens and you can't dwell on everything or give up when life gets you down, and allowing ourselves a release via crying in certain circumstances.

I think the last time I cried that wasn't in relation to a big issue like a bereavement or a breakup, was shortly after I'd emigrated for a job. My boss gave me a rather harsh bollocking for something which was in retrospect, a small, petty issue. With all the stress of emigrating, the loneliness of not having made any friends over there yet etc., it was kinda the final straw. I cried, privately and alone, and afterwards, I felt much better, and more capable of logically assessing the situation and picking myself up. I feel that in that instance, it was a necessary release which greatly helped me.

There's a bit too much of a big deal made about lack of crying though. I think the real issue when it comes to men is acceptance of emotions, personal emotional reflection, and knowing how to deal with emotions. The correct course of action isn't necessarily always that we must cry, and if we're not, that something's wrong with us. I might have cried in what could be considered a slightly silly situation above, but I did not cry after a close friend committed suicide. People are different, and people experience different emotional reactions at different times of their lives, and deal with individual issues differently. Repressing emotions and bottling things up is bad, but this is not the same thing as not crying about things. Not crying might be a symptom of this in some people, but it's not the whole story by a long shot.

Galwayguy35 · 28-03-2014 2:06am

I have cried openly in the past due to bereavement, not by choice but because I couldn't help it, I would have prefered not to because I don't like showing feelings like that in front of people and I can't say that crying made me feel any better at the time.

iptba · 28-03-2014 3:15am

I recall crying publicly the odd time when I was a boy. The uncomfortable way some responded led me to feel uncomfortable about doing it in future.

Personally, anger, rage and probably even irrational rants makes me more comfortable and I'd prefer if they were less socially acceptable than crying.

Sleepy · 28-03-2014 2:46pm

tsiehta wrote: »

There's a bit too much of a big deal made about lack of crying though. I think the real issue when it comes to men is acceptance of emotions, personal emotional reflection, and knowing how to deal with emotions. The correct course of action isn't necessarily always that we must cry, and if we're not, that something's wrong with us. I might have cried in what could be considered a slightly silly situation above, but I did not cry after a close friend committed suicide. People are different, and people experience different emotional reactions at different times of their lives, and deal with individual issues differently. Repressing emotions and bottling things up is bad, but this is not the same thing as not crying about things. Not crying might be a symptom of this in some people, but it's not the whole story by a long shot.

Yep, apparently if you're not one to break down into tears at the drop of a hat you're "emotionally stunted" :rolleyes:

kiffer · 28-03-2014 5:08pm

1. Men and women have different hormone levels.
2. Men have larger tear ducts draining fluid away from the eyes. Which means that the same amount of tear looks less but instead flows down into nose and throat.
3. Men are actively conditioned from an early age not to cry.

coffee_cake · 28-03-2014 5:10pm

Sleepy wrote: »

Honestly, no. I tend to just go straight to the looking at things logically and determining a course of action. The release to any problem for me is finding the solution to it or, at worst, finding a way of minimizing the damage.

Right, me too. But sometimes things get too much for you, particularly if it's a build up of days or weeks, or something that is not easily solved/out of your control, and it releases the stress and then you can go back to dealing with stuff and problem solving again.

silverbolt · 28-03-2014 5:52pm

Sleepy wrote: »

Yep, apparently if you're not one to break down into tears at the drop of a hat you're "emotionally stunted" :rolleyes:

Thats rather extreme dont you think? Tbh if the urge to cry over the littlest thing is that overwhelming then that would indicate theres something wrong somewhere.

Think the last time i actually cried, was three days after my fathers funeral. I was with a group of friends and as naturally happened, it all hit me and i broke down. Completely understandable.

Sleepy · 28-03-2014 6:29pm

bluewolf wrote: »

Right, me too. But sometimes things get too much for you, particularly if it's a build up of days or weeks, or something that is not easily solved/out of your control, and it releases the stress and then you can go back to dealing with stuff and problem solving again.

Perhaps strangely, it'd never be the hard/difficult stuff that'd bring tears to my eyes. I'd be far more likely to find myself overwhelmed with emotion by a rousing piece of music...

silverbolt wrote: »

Thats rather extreme dont you think? Tbh if the urge to cry over the littlest thing is that overwhelming then that would indicate theres something wrong somewhere.

Think the last time i actually cried, was three days after my fathers funeral. I was with a group of friends and as naturally happened, it all hit me and i broke down. Completely understandable.

Of course it is and there's nothing at all wrong with it.

I just get pissed off at the suggestion made by so many womens magazines and social "scientists" with liberal arts degrees that those of us who don't react to hard situations by crying are in some way stunted in our development. While there's nothing wrong with being overwhelmed by a genuinely difficult situation, I'd see far more wrong with allowing oneself to be overwhelmed by every little upset than with not being the sort to get overwhelmed by very much.

iptba · 29-03-2014 2:31am

Happened to come across this today. While I'm all for males having a bit more freedom to cry, I think crying in this sort of context should be restricted to children!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrAcV2ywnqc

fits · 29-03-2014 7:33am

iptba wrote: »

video]

Lol! reminds me of some posters in this forum

astonaidan · 31-03-2014 1:58am

Last night I had two girls laugh at the size of my hands, being small. Never in my life has the size of my hands come up in conversation.
Is hand size really a defining sign of being masculine :eek:

Playboy · 31-03-2014 10:00am

astonaidan wrote: »

Last night I had two girls laugh at the size of my hands, being small. Never in my life has the size of my hands come up in conversation.
Is hand size really a defining sign of being masculine :eek:

Small hands lol? How can you even call yourself a man. Have some sexual reassignment surgery now reflect to your obvious femininity!

Dravokivich · 31-03-2014 10:57am

I don't think there's a problem with men crying. I've cried before, maybe...

But I don't agree with her saying a lack of crying is due to someone "repressing genuine emotions." Crying can be an emotional response, but it's not the emotion itself.

astonaidan · 31-03-2014 1:30pm

Playboy wrote: »

Small hands lol? How can you even call yourself a man. Have some sexual reassignment surgery now reflect to your obvious femininity!

Dam it, I knew its what I had to do, well im going to be a lesbian

Mike747 · 03-04-2014 11:48am

astonaidan wrote: »

Dam it, I knew its what I had to do, well im going to be a lesbian

Go for it, be a total slut.

Also, those girls sound like bitches, they'd probably have a breakdown if someone said something about their appearance.

astonaidan · 03-04-2014 11:17pm

Mike747 wrote: »

Go for it, be a total slut.

Also, those girls sound like bitches, they'd probably have a breakdown if someone said something about their appearance.

Dont worry, I bit my tongue. This girl is known to be really bothered about the size of her forehead,but as gentleman, I just called them ugly and dont talk to there betters :pac:

Pawwed Rig · 04-04-2014 9:39am

Mod note -Ok guys back on topic and raise the tone a bit. Cheers.

Men and masculinity, including discussing raising boys

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