Solar panels - worth it?

DrPhilG · 15-09-2014 2:12am #1

Sorry if it's been done to death, the solar thermal/PV debate seems to have eased down in recent years and most of the Boards threads I've found are a bit old.

We live in a bungalow, about 180 sq metres. My average electricity bill is about €150 every 2 months. A little higher in the winter and a little lower in the summer of course. We go through about 2000-2500 litres of heating oil per year. That is to heat the house, and provide hot water. So the average annual costs for heat/hot water and electricity would be approximately €2100 and €900.

It's just my wife and I in the house, no children and none coming. We both work, so it's evening and weekend that get the most use, not sure if that matters in terms of usage etc. The house is in (not so) sunny Donegal.

I will have the money within the next year for some home improvements, and I'm thinking of increasing the insulation in the walls and roofspace, and possibly installing solar panels. My garage is north/south facing, and the house east/west.

I'm just wondering how likely it is to be worth while in the long run. From reading up, (although I haven't had any quotes/surveys yet) it seems that installation costs will be in the region of €10-12k. I'm just trying to figure out how long it would take to recoup that cost in order to figure out if it's worth the investment, and bearing in mind also that the heating costs will hopefully reduce a little with the impending improvements to the house insulation.

We are highly unlikely to ever move house again so any effect on house valuation or resale etc is irrelevant. We are both in our 30s so hopefully will be around for another while ourselves too!

Any help or suggestions would be appreciated!

DrPhilG · 15-09-2014 2:20am

For example (and I know this is an older article, 2008 and UK based), it states here that solar panels are unlikely to pay for themselves inside 100 years! While improved insulation will pay for itself in 3-5 years.

http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/climate-change/solar-panels-take-100-years-to-pay-back-installation-costs-917202.html

I'd rather save the €10k plus if it's going to take a lifetime to see any real benefit.

Macha · 15-09-2014 10:18am

Moved - more likely to get an answer from this forum.

DrPhilG · 16-09-2014 4:51pm

Macha wrote: »

more likely to get an answer.

Or not, lol!

I'm leaning towards a no vote at the minute. Because my energy bills aren't that bad, I'd be looking at a pretty lengthy time before I would recover my investment, and then there's the question of maintenance/replacement costs.

ch750536 · 16-09-2014 5:05pm

I did this earlier in the year.

tldr;

A 4k investment now returns 8k over 25 years, roughly 4.3% return PA - pretty poor.

Better insulation, better boiler, wood burning stove with back boiler etc all offer a much better return.

Skybox · 16-09-2014 5:13pm

Insulation work is definitely the way to go. We got the inside of our house drylined with insulation slabs and skimmed over. Cost about €3k but you can feel the difference in the house. Get that done, some insulation in the attic and you will notice a huge difference. Check out the SEAI website as there are/were grants available to assist with the home improvements in this area.

DrPhilG · 16-09-2014 6:36pm

Skybox wrote: »

Insulation work is definitely the way to go. We got the inside of our house drylined with insulation slabs and skimmed over.

Excuse my stupidity, but what does that involve?

My understanding of it is essentially adding another layer inside the house? Which would mean complete redecoration and replacement/relaying of skirting & architrave?

Might do that in stages. Bought the house as a stripped down mess and had to redecorate every room. Didn't have the money to do the major insulation work then sadly, would have been the ideal time.

freddyuk · 16-09-2014 9:59pm

ch750536 wrote: »

I did this earlier in the year.

tldr;

A 4k investment now returns 8k over 25 years, roughly 4.3% return PA - pretty poor.

Better insulation, better boiler, wood burning stove with back boiler etc all offer a much better return.

Could you do the forecast at 8% energy inflation? (I think I asked that before)
Also if you have invested in renewable energy you will use less energy overall thus reducing your import cost and increase your net metering income.(which is simply a bonus not a reason to invest) Hard to factor in but it needs to be considered.
A 4.3% return against any savings instruments is pretty good? If inflation kicks in then your energy costs will rise in line and benefits will increase accordingly. Savings investment returns will increase but sadly lag behind unless you take a higher risk. There is no risk in investing in solar energy as it is a calculated average input based on known data which needs to have replacement inverter factored in. Buy one now!!
If new technology springs up to radically improve returns the the cost will rise accordingly. If you have the space invest now as boom and bust will not go away.
We do not control the price of oil or gas which is owned by others and politically priced - but no one yet owns the sun.
BTW I agree with getting insulation and a WBS as a priority which only makes any investment in renewable energy more effective. It really focuses you on what you are using and why. More effort but under your control.

Skybox · 17-09-2014 9:18am

DrPhilG wrote: »

Excuse my stupidity, but what does that involve?

My understanding of it is essentially adding another layer inside the house? Which would mean complete redecoration and replacement/relaying of skirting & architrave?

Might do that in stages. Bought the house as a stripped down mess and had to redecorate every room. Didn't have the money to do the major insulation work then sadly, would have been the ideal time.

We actually did it in stages too. Did pretty much what you did. Bought the house and the whole lot had to be redecorated so decided to do the insulation, etc at the same time. It's an old house (over 100 years old). Did the kitchen first, ripped out the old one, insulated the walls and put a new kitchen in. Did the front of the house and the upstairs at later dates. (It's a terraced house)

If you have redecorated the inside of the house already, may be worth considering external dry lining which is essentially adding another layer to the outside of the house.

See grants available from seai:

Insulation Attic Insulation €200
Wall Insulation - Cavity €250
Wall Insulation - Internal Dry Lining
Apartment (any) OR Mid- terrace House €900
Semi-detached or End of Terrace €1,350
Detached House €1,800
Wall Insulation - External
Apartment (any) OR Mid- terrace House €1,800
Semi-detached or End of Terrace €2,700
Detached House €3,600

Heating System Heating Controls with Boiler (Oil or Gas) Upgrade. €560
Heating Controls Upgrade only €400
Solar Heating €800
Building Energy Rating (BER) €50

The following should be noted:
- Cash grants are a set value based on 30% of average cost of works. If expenditure is below this set value, only the actual expenditure will be reimbursed.
- Minimum grant application amount is €400.
- A Building Energy Rating (BER) must be undertaken on the home after grant aided works have been completed. A homeowner is entitled to BER funding of €50 once per home.
- A SEAI registered contractor must be used to install grant aided measures.

DrPhilG · 17-09-2014 9:37am

Already painted the whole exterior too... Lol

The wife has been on about exterior insulation but I was under the impression that it's hugely expensive.

It's a bungalow which probably makes life easier, but what it lacks in height it makes up for in length.

Skybox · 17-09-2014 10:02am

I don't know about hugely expensive. Judging by the grants, it looks like it could be. prob cheaper to repaint the outside, than do everything on the inside, particularly if you need to take out kitchens etc and refit afterwards! Have a look at the website and get one of the approved contractors out to take a look and give you a quote for both

Do the quick easy fixes yourself first; insulate the attic; put in draft excluders.

Skybox · 17-09-2014 10:02am

I don't know about hugely expensive. Judging by the grants, it looks like it could be. prob cheaper to repaint the outside, than do everything on the inside, particularly if you need to take out kitchens etc and refit afterwards! Have a look at the website and get one of the approved contractors out to take a look and give you a quote for both

Do the quick easy fixes yourself first; insulate the attic; put in draft excluders.

ch750536 · 18-09-2014 7:47am

freddyuk wrote: »

Could you do the forecast at 8% energy inflation? (I think I asked that before)
Also if you have invested in renewable energy you will use less energy overall thus reducing your import cost and increase your net metering income.(which is simply a bonus not a reason to invest) Hard to factor in but it needs to be considered.
A 4.3% return against any savings instruments is pretty good? If inflation kicks in then your energy costs will rise in line and benefits will increase accordingly. Savings investment returns will increase but sadly lag behind unless you take a higher risk. There is no risk in investing in solar energy as it is a calculated average input based on known data which needs to have replacement inverter factored in. Buy one now!!
If new technology springs up to radically improve returns the the cost will rise accordingly. If you have the space invest now as boom and bust will not go away.
We do not control the price of oil or gas which is owned by others and politically priced - but no one yet owns the sun.
BTW I agree with getting insulation and a WBS as a priority which only makes any investment in renewable energy more effective. It really focuses you on what you are using and why. More effort but under your control.

Inflation at 8%

Markcheese · 19-10-2014 3:47pm

You could stick up solar hot water panels, only any good in spring summer but still a lot cheaper than PV panels..

quentingargan · 20-10-2014 11:01am

Markcheese wrote: »

You could stick up solar hot water panels, only any good in spring summer but still a lot cheaper than PV panels..

Actually prices on PV have fallen, so that is disputable. I would think that watt for watt, thermal is cheaper, but in terms of return on investment, with water charges, maintenance etc., PV might now have the edge.

21-10-2014 11:56am

No mention of heat pumps?

envaction · 10-11-2015 1:26am

I think that they would be worth it. I know that a lot of the people where my parents live have them now. My parents will be selling their house soon, so they won't get them because they won't see the pay out. If they did, then they said that they would have gotten them. But, in the long run I do think they are worth it especially since you will see a good payoff from them.

Solar panels - worth it?

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