Armageddon for Dublin City Businesses if people can't drive their cars into city

Calhoun · 10-08-2015 10:04pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Afraid those rogue cyclists will track you down?

Na I've nothing against cyclist, just don't want to feed someone with an opposing view.

You a cyclists with a chip on your shoulder ?

Calhoun · 10-08-2015 10:09pm

lxflyer wrote: »

There was one story (not pleasant I agree), and I would agree that the LUAS red line has issues, but how many journeys are made in Dublin on public transport without any of those problems? The answer is the vast majority.

You clearly have your own view about public transport which I will disagree with as I use it every single day (which clearly you don't).

But you didn't answer my other question - how does closing College Green make it more difficult to drive to a city centre car park?

There are numerous car parking options - all within easy walking access of the city centre.

Great we have differing views on a discussion forum, that's allowed . I am still allowed have an opinion however based on my own experience.

I can only imagine the impact of the road closures will be a worsening of conditions around it, the go to response has been for people to use more public transport. My answer was I would stir clear altogether that's it.

MGWR · 10-08-2015 10:13pm

serfboard wrote: »

As reported by RTÉ and The Irish Times.

So, 60% of 40% (i.e. 24%) of high-end customers only would not come into town if they couldn't use their cars. Back to the same oul' bullsh1t - unless customers can drive right to the door of a shop, they won't come in.
Any vested interest who commissions a survey, will only publish the results of the survey if it matches their agenda. I'd also be very interested in seeing the questions.

IMO, the businesses which will be the most affected will be the car park owners themselves, hence their concern.

I'd like to see another survey that asked all shoppers: "If the city centre was easier to walk around, and it was easier to get in and out on reliable public transport, do you think you would be more likely to go in?"

Maybe, yes, certain businesses will be affected. But business owners are always crowing about how dynamic they are and how they are able to respond to changing consumer patterns. So then, adapt. If the car ban comes in, either offer a delivery service or change your product lines or both.

No, it doesn't work that way. None of the most successful capital cities around the world are what the left wing describes as "walkable".

Stheno · 10-08-2015 10:16pm

IE 222 wrote: »

If the car park and retailers where really that worried about it I'm sure they would have offers you can't refuse to get you in. Its pure scaremongering again from these retailers and co. There probably seeking some deal now from dcc about rents as "compensation".

Arnotts were on the radio today in relation to this, they pay Dublin City Council 2 million euro a year in rates!

_Kaiser_ · 10-08-2015 10:19pm

What most people on this thread are missing - and indeed it's a common theme on this forum - is that public transport is always a poorer alternative to the private car.

- It's slow and generally wanders indirectly to its destination which wastes even more time
- It's not cheap
- Parking isn't free at most of the P&R sites as far as I'm aware
- Potential anti-social behaviour, or even just overcrowding and noise/nuisance factors of others
- Bad driving (I've been on plenty of buses in the past that lurch to a halt, bounce over speed ramps too fast, and take corners too quickly)
- Ignorant/unhelpful staff. Thankfully more the exception than the norm but again, who needs that
- Not much use if you have more than a few carrier bags with you. Even parents with buggies struggle most of the time from what I've seen

Why would anyone with access to a car choose to put themselves through that hassle and timewasting when they can go to somewhere like Blanch or Liffey Valley, park for free, do all the shopping they want in one place, and then go for dinner or a movie and home again on the motorway straight after? Unless you're suggesting they sell the car outright, they'll still be paying tax/insurance on it regardless after all.

Public transport is there for those who can't afford a car or who don't have onsite parking if commuting to work, and that's fine.. but for anyone else it's something that will always be avoided if possible.
The only way to change that is to make driving more unattractive than this.. but that's the benefit of a car - it gives you a lot more alternatives and there will be many who take them IMO.

This survey may be somewhat biased, but that doesn't mean there's no truth in there too.

LeinsterDub · 10-08-2015 10:42pm

Calhoun wrote: »

Na I've nothing against cyclist, just don't want to feed someone with an opposing view.

You a cyclists with a chip on your shoulder ?

Should of quoted zeffabelli instead . Sorry

IE 222 · 10-08-2015 10:48pm

Stheno wrote: »

Arnotts were on the radio today in relation to this, they pay Dublin City Council 2 million euro a year in rates!

Id understand if DDC were digging up Henry street. DCC can't be responsible if arnotts don't get there expected footfall. Next they will be blaming them on the weather. I guarantee you if a luas or underground train was to run down Henry street they would be begging for a stop to be put outside.

IE 222 · 10-08-2015 11:05pm

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

What most people on this thread are missing - and indeed it's a common theme on this forum - is that public transport is always a poorer alternative to the private car.

- It's slow and generally wanders indirectly to its destination which wastes even more time
- It's not cheap
- Parking isn't free at most of the P&R sites as far as I'm aware
- Potential anti-social behaviour, or even just overcrowding and noise/nuisance factors of others
- Bad driving (I've been on plenty of buses in the past that lurch to a halt, bounce over speed ramps too fast, and take corners too quickly)
- Ignorant/unhelpful staff. Thankfully more the exception than the norm but again, who needs that
- Not much use if you have more than a few carrier bags with you. Even parents with buggies struggle most of the time from what I've seen

Why would anyone with access to a car choose to put themselves through that hassle and timewasting when they can go to somewhere like Blanch or Liffey Valley, park for free, do all the shopping they want in one place, and then go for dinner or a movie and home again on the motorway straight after? Unless you're suggesting they sell the car outright, they'll still be paying tax/insurance on it regardless after all.

Public transport is there for those who can't afford a car or who don't have onsite parking if commuting to work, and that's fine.. but for anyone else it's something that will always be avoided if possible.
The only way to change that is to make driving more unattractive than this.. but that's the benefit of a car - it gives you a lot more alternatives and there will be many who take them IMO.

This survey may be somewhat biased, but that doesn't mean there's no truth in there too.

That's the problem there. Public transport is not just for people who don't have parking space or can't afford a car. Its there to crate convenient and suitable travel option for everyone to use.

Unfortunately if people choose not to use it because they want to use there car instead then there ain't much point investing in it. Use it or loose it.

The country went car mad from the 90s on. The biggest mistake was building all these motorways. But think how bad the roads would be if there wasn't any public transport. You could stay in town shopping with car all week cause you wouldn't be able to get out.

Also Dublin buses are not really designed for high end comfort. They are to move vast amounts of people from one point to the next.

_Kaiser_ · 10-08-2015 11:17pm

IE 222 wrote: »

The country went car mad from the 90s on. The biggest mistake was building all these motorways.

The country went car mad because in the Good Times it was decided that commuting from as far as Laois or Dundalk or Mullingar back into the city every day was doable in the pursuit of that semi-D in the country, and people did it because Dublin was where all the jobs were after all (particularly in those tech multinationals).

To be fair, given the way prices surged in Dublin as everyone fought to "get on the ladder" and banks gave away "free" money no questions asked, it's not surprising given the lack of affordable housing that was available inside the city boundaries.

The biggest mistake is that we have collectively learned nothing from the last 8 years and are now repeating the same thing again!

To quote Battlestar Galactica - "all of this has happened before, and it will happen again"

Stheno · 10-08-2015 11:20pm

IE 222 wrote: »

Its there to crate convenient and suitable travel option for everyone to use.

That's the problem imo with public transport.
There is no public transport option for me commuting from Swords to the City Centre which is quicker than my driving.

So I drive. The difference in cost is negligible

OldMrBrennan83 · 10-08-2015 11:26pm

This post has been deleted.

dubscottie · 10-08-2015 11:37pm

AngryLips wrote: »

This is just a complete lie

I have had stuff stolen from me and l know of a few others that have had as well.
You convince yourself that you left it somewhere but slowly realize that some one has robbed you.

The aim for some seems to be to turn Dublin into some bicycle riding, craft beer drinking, artisan elastic band buying mecca.

Fine on the continent, but this is Ireland. A different culture that does not need changing. Tourists don't come here expecting an Irish version of one of the many bland European cities.

And what people forget is that many don't do single journeys in the car.

In this modern world people don't have the time to wait for buses, walk up the road and back etc.. Esp if you have kids.

ezra_pound · 10-08-2015 11:45pm

dubscottie wrote: »

I have had stuff stolen from me and l know of a few others that have had as well.
You convince yourself that you left it somewhere but slowly realize that some one has robbed you.

The aim for some seems to be to turn Dublin into some bicycle riding, craft beer drinking, artisan elastic band buying mecca.

Fine on the continent, but this is Ireland. A different culture that does not need changing. Tourists don't come here expecting an Irish version of one of the many bland European cities.

And what people forget is that many don't do single journeys in the car.

In this modern world people don't have the time to wait for buses, walk up the road and back etc.. Esp if you have kids.

In this modern world there's a lot of fat kids.

IE 222 · 11-08-2015 12:07am

Patww79 wrote: »

Mistake building motorways? Why don't we all go back to horses and carts!

Matter of preference really. But you have admit we got a bit carried away with motorways instead of fixing the bigger picture.

kilo6 · 11-08-2015 12:16am

I have lived in many countries and visited and drove in cities all over the world. I can say that if i never drive into or visit Dublin again it will not worry me.
We have two countries in Ireland now. The pale and the rest of the country. Dublin planning of their roads public transport and even locating the new National childrens hospital should tell you all you need to know about the planning experts. Anyone rem they built a tunnell under dublin harbor that was too low to run some european trucks under. So the stupid politician changed the law outlawing certain trucks. Nobody fired as usual. What a joke .
Out in rural Ireland you cannot drive on some roads without scraping weeds and briars off the side of your car all in the name of conservation. Or is it lack of money. Dont talk to me about these crazy cyclists rigged out like they were a sky cycling team member two and three abreast the roads and yes they do hold up traffic.
Go ahead and close off all the roads they want and please those cyclists. If they want to live in a dirty filthy city like dublin go right ahead. While you are at it cycle down temple bar on a fri or sat night . Hope you survive. Ever notice the trash around your streets . Filthy.
So im off out to pristine prarie grassland where you can drive a four door ford F150 king ranch and not see a cyclist for 300 miles on interstate 90. Bye yall .

IE 222 · 11-08-2015 12:24am

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

The country went car mad because in the Good Times it was decided that commuting from as far as Laois or Dundalk or Mullingar back into the city every day was doable in the pursuit of that semi-D in the country, and people did it because Dublin was where all the jobs were after all (particularly in those tech multinationals).

To be fair, given the way prices surged in Dublin as everyone fought to "get on the ladder" and banks gave away "free" money no questions asked, it's not surprising given the lack of affordable housing that was available inside the city boundaries.

The biggest mistake is that we have collectively learned nothing from the last 8 years and are now repeating the same thing again!

To quote Battlestar Galactica - "all of this has happened before, and it will happen again"

Exactly and all these towns are rail connected but yet no one ever thought to make better use of it. Instead everyone was crammed onto the roads and spent many hours a week sitting on motorways going nowhere.

IE 222 · 11-08-2015 12:31am

Stheno wrote: »

That's the problem imo with public transport.
There is no public transport option for me commuting from Swords to the City Centre which is quicker than my driving.

So I drive. The difference in cost is negligible

That's a fair point. Its a good enough reason. But to say you wont use it cause you have a few carrier bags with you or the bus bumps of ramps a bit harder is foolish.

Stheno · 11-08-2015 12:36am

IE 222 wrote: »

That's a fair point. Its a good enough reason. But to say you wont use it cause you have a few carrier bags with you or the bus bumps of ramps a bit harder is foolish.

Actually if the OH an myself are heading into the city of an evening or weekend, we'd often take the bus, particularly the Swords Express as it's quick and convenient. It doesn't work as a mode of transport to where I work in Dublin 2 though.

Now on the bump off ramps points, I do sometimes (very rarely) take the 41x in the mornings with Dublin bus. The bus stop I use is about three hundred feet from a traffic lights where the bus makes a sharp right hand turn. There are usually about ten people getting on, and before people have made their way upstairs as downstairs is full, the bus is at those lights and turning, I've fallen several times attempting to get up the stairs or to a seat due to this. It's not pleasant.

dubscottie · 11-08-2015 12:43am

ezra_pound wrote: »

In this modern world there's a lot of fat kids.

Thats for another thread/forum.

dubscottie · 11-08-2015 12:55am

kilo6 wrote: »

Anyone rem they built a tunnell under dublin harbor that was too low to run some european trucks under. So the stupid politician changed the law outlawing certain trucks.

I worked on the tolls on the tunnel when it first opened.. 10-12 trucks a week were over height. 99% were not loaded right or were an oversize load which needed a Garda escort and had to stay in the middle of the bore...

The problem is that while European height trucks CAN go through the tunnel.. The air fans at each end of the tunnel may suck in any loose parts of the trailers. (the fans run like a Boeing 747 engine on idle). And that's why the are banned...

Stheno · 11-08-2015 12:58am

dubscottie wrote: »

I worked on the tolls on the tunnel when it first opened.. 10-12 trucks a week were over height. 99% were not loaded right or were an oversize load which needed a Garda escort and had to stay in the middle of the bore...

The problem is that while European height trucks CAN go through the tunnel.. The air fans at each end of the tunnel may suck in any loose parts of the trailers. (the fans run like a Boeing 747 engine on idle). And that's why the are banned...

Always wondered about that thanks

OldMrBrennan83 · 11-08-2015 1:03am

This post has been deleted.

dfx- · 11-08-2015 1:53am

Calhoun wrote: »

You may not, as Im not interested in you mapping out the journey for me to show me how it's not an inconvenience. I have given you my reasons on thread for why I personally won't be going near dublin unless I have to.

Good for you on using the public transport, if I didn't have a choice I would use it but as I do I don't and would rather go to places that afford me the option to travel how I want.

That's fine, that's your opinion. But it is not something that can be used to prevent the tens of thousands of others using public transport into the city.

Public transport has to be organised for the needs of everyone who uses it, with all sorts of demands, city artery routes, orbital routes and not based on media scare stories, personal inconveniences or the Irish 'need' to have a car.

The bus gate for that reason is a good thing.

dubscottie wrote: »

I have had stuff stolen from me and l know of a few others that have had as well.
You convince yourself that you left it somewhere but slowly realize that some one has robbed you.

The aim for some seems to be to turn Dublin into some bicycle riding, craft beer drinking, artisan elastic band buying mecca.

Fine on the continent, but this is Ireland. A different culture that does not need changing. Tourists don't come here expecting an Irish version of one of the many bland European cities.

And what people forget is that many don't do single journeys in the car.

In this modern world people don't have the time to wait for buses, walk up the road and back etc.. Esp if you have kids.

No time to walk up the road? How do they manage to squeeze the walk from their car to their door into their schedule? Or the walk from the shop to the parked car?

rp · 11-08-2015 7:59am

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I dunno, it gets horrid lonely on the M9 sometimes, not seeing another car all the way from Carlow and Kilkenny.

LXFlyer · 11-08-2015 8:18am

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

What most people on this thread are missing - and indeed it's a common theme on this forum - is that public transport is always a poorer alternative to the private car.

- It's slow and generally wanders indirectly to its destination which wastes even more time

You keep on trotting out this line yet since Network Direct was implemented every QBC now has at least one bus route that takes a direct route along the QBC to the city.

Let's be honest, what you really mean is that there isn't a door-to-door bus route for everyone in the city, which clearly is impossible.

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Public transport is there for those who can't afford a car or who don't have onsite parking if commuting to work, and that's fine.. but for anyone else it's something that will always be avoided if possible.

No it's not - it's to try and provide an effective method of getting in and out of our city and keep the city actually moving. If everyone took your view there would be complete and total gridlock.

I'll accept that for many orbital trips having a car is often unavoidable, given the unique nature of most individual trips, but this is not the case when travelling into Dublin City Centre.

We are coming to a point where, with trams passing through the city centre on the Green line every 3 minutes that the current situation just cannot continue and that steps are taken to ensure that the rest of the public transport services keep moving as well through the city.

LXFlyer · 11-08-2015 8:29am

Stheno wrote: »

That's the problem imo with public transport.
There is no public transport option for me commuting from Swords to the City Centre which is quicker than my driving.

So I drive. The difference in cost is negligible

Stheno wrote: »

Actually if the OH an myself are heading into the city of an evening or weekend, we'd often take the bus, particularly the Swords Express as it's quick and convenient. It doesn't work as a mode of transport to where I work in Dublin 2 though.

Now on the bump off ramps points, I do sometimes (very rarely) take the 41x in the mornings with Dublin bus. The bus stop I use is about three hundred feet from a traffic lights where the bus makes a sharp right hand turn. There are usually about ten people getting on, and before people have made their way upstairs as downstairs is full, the bus is at those lights and turning, I've fallen several times attempting to get up the stairs or to a seat due to this. It's not pleasant.

Are you seriously suggesting that there are parts of Dublin 2 that are not within a reasonable walking distance of where either the Swords Express or 41x serves?

As for going up a bus stairs, would it not make more sense to wait until the bus has turned around the corner, given that you're clearly fully aware that the bus is going to turn that corner?

My bus goes around a roundabout close to a stop that I use, but I have the cop on to not get up from my seat until after the roundabout because I know the bus is going to be going around it. There's not much you can do about a bus having to go around a corner.

monument · 11-08-2015 8:31am

Just a general warning: This is C&T the C&T charter applies -- no backseat modding, relax a bit before replying etc.

This does not limit any moderation of posts before this which have yet to be viewed/reviewed by a mod.

-- moderator

OldMrBrennan83 · 11-08-2015 8:48am

This post has been deleted.

cgcsb · 11-08-2015 9:15am

Stheno wrote: »

That's the problem imo with public transport.
There is no public transport option for me commuting from Swords to the City Centre which is quicker than my driving.

So I drive. The difference in cost is negligible

Would a congestion charge help?

cgcsb · 11-08-2015 9:26am

lxflyer wrote: »

Are you seriously suggesting that there are parts of Dublin 2 that are not within a reasonable walking distance of where either the Swords Express or 41x serves?

As for going up a bus stairs, would it not make more sense to wait until the bus has turned around the corner, given that you're clearly fully aware that the bus is going to turn that corner?

My bus goes around a roundabout close to a stop that I use, but I have the cop on to not get up from my seat until after the roundabout because I know the bus is going to be going around it. There's not much you can do about a bus having to go around a corner.

I'd be alarmed that s/he cannot pull their own body weight up a stairs with 2 handrails and generous steps even if there was a large backward tilt. People need more exercise.

Eugene Norman · 11-08-2015 9:49am

dubscottie wrote: »

I have had stuff stolen from me and l know of a few others that have had as well.
You convince yourself that you left it somewhere but slowly realize that some one has robbed you.

The aim for some seems to be to turn Dublin into some bicycle riding, craft beer drinking, artisan elastic band buying mecca.

Fine on the continent, but this is Ireland. A different culture that does not need changing. Tourists don't come here expecting an Irish version of one of the many bland European cities.

And what people forget is that many don't do single journeys in the car.

In this modern world people don't have the time to wait for buses, walk up the road and back etc.. Esp if you have kids.

I really don't see what minor improvements to college green have anything to do with anything the pro car lobby is saying. Same arguments for any change or pedestrianisation.

Uriel. · 11-08-2015 9:56am

cgcsb wrote: »

I'd be alarmed that s/he cannot pull their own body weight up a stairs with 2 handrails and generous steps even if there was a large backward tilt. People need more exercise.

Now imagine doing so, whilst carrying a few bags...

I can appreciate that particular poster's experience. I commute to work (5 days per week) and back with the bus. Still takes an hour most of the time - it's fine, but not a fantastic service by any means. Truth is, if I didn't have other expenses going at the moment, I'd probably drive which takes about the same time.

And the sooner the better the buses run behind 23.30... if that ever happens.

seamus · 11-08-2015 10:44am

dubscottie wrote: »

Fine on the continent, but this is Ireland. A different culture that does not need changing. Tourists don't come here expecting an Irish version of one of the many bland European cities.

Ireland is not in some way special when it comes to traffic and transportation. The same rules apply here as they do in London or Amsterdam.

Tourists come here for culture, to experience Irish bars, restaurants and shops, to look at architecture. They don't come here to look at our transport system. Doing what another city has done, Amsterdam, for example, won't suddenly make Dublin look like Amsterdam. Because tourists don't come here to look at cars, busses and roads.

Having a city that's easy to get around by foot, bicycle or public transport is far more important than allowing Mary to drive up to the side door of Brown Thomas to collect her new designer handbag. Because tourists don't drive private cars into the city. And relatively few shoppers do too. So the city should accommodate the modes of transport which allow us to move the most amount of people in the most efficient manner.

Which means favouring walking, cycling & public transport over private vehicles.

In this modern world people don't have the time to wait for buses, walk up the road and back etc.. Esp if you have kids.

People who have kids don't bring them shopping in the city centre. Because there's too much traffic, funnily enough.

If we had an extensive network of pedestrianised shopping streets like many cities do (Bordeaux is one good example), you'll find more people go shopping in the city, with kids too, because it's easier to get around.

College Green would be a good start, but we should investigate other options to get us right across the river too.

hardCopy · 11-08-2015 10:53am

dubscottie wrote: »

I have had stuff stolen from me and l know of a few others that have had as well.
You convince yourself that you left it somewhere but slowly realize that some one has robbed you.

The aim for some seems to be to turn Dublin into some bicycle riding, craft beer drinking, artisan elastic band buying mecca.

Fine on the continent, but this is Ireland. A different culture that does not need changing. Tourists don't come here expecting an Irish version of one of the many bland European cities.

And what people forget is that many don't do single journeys in the car.

In this modern world people don't have the time to wait for buses, walk up the road and back etc.. Esp if you have kids.

That post is absolute manure of the highest order. What have cars and gridlock got to do with Irish culture?

This was irish culture before Dublin City Council made sh1t of it.

Stheno · 11-08-2015 11:21am

lxflyer wrote: »

Are you seriously suggesting that there are parts of Dublin 2 that are not within a reasonable walking distance of where either the Swords Express or 41x serves?

No, what I said in my first post is that it is quicker to drive in the mornings than to use public transport/walk, same in the evenings when I work in that location

As for going up a bus stairs, would it not make more sense to wait until the bus has turned around the corner, given that you're clearly fully aware that the bus is going to turn that corner?

My bus goes around a roundabout close to a stop that I use, but I have the cop on to not get up from my seat until after the roundabout because I know the bus is going to be going around it. There's not much you can do about a bus having to go around a corner.x

True, it's still pretty uncomfortable standing downstairs waiting for them to turn.

cgcsb wrote: »

Would a congestion charge help?

Don't know, I don't work in the city centre particularly often

Carawaystick · 11-08-2015 11:43am

lxflyer wrote: »

You keep on trotting out this line yet since Network Direct was implemented every QBC now has at least one bus route that takes a direct route along the QBC to the city.

There's no qbc from Swords to Dublin city centre.
There's no buslane in parts of Santry ( morton stadium, between Coolock lane and Santry avenue; between Omni & the Comet)
in parts of Drumcondra - (from the Tolka to opposite Fagans)
Dorset st (ncr to gardiner st; at Temple st)

These aren't just gaps for letting other traffic take left turns, they hold up busses because the will is not there to implement a Quality bus corridor, and what is there is a sher its grand bus corridor.

LXFlyer · 11-08-2015 11:49am

Carawaystick wrote: »

There's no qbc from Swords to Dublin city centre.
There's no buslane in parts of Santry ( morton stadium, between Coolock lane and Santry avenue; between Omni & the Comet)
in parts of Drumcondra - (from the Tolka to opposite Fagans)
Dorset st (ncr to gardiner st; at Temple st)

These aren't just gaps for letting other traffic take left turns, they hold up busses because the will is not there to implement a Quality bus corridor, and what is there is a sher its grand bus corridor.

Well actually officially that is a QBC but like most of the other ones it does have gaps in the on street priority.

None of our QBCs have 100% priority for the entire route.

There is a substantial amount of bus priority on that route.

Victor · 11-08-2015 12:02pm

noelfirl wrote: »

*tumbleweed rolls by*

Constructive posts only please.

Moderator

noelfirl · 11-08-2015 12:29pm

Victor wrote: »

Constructive posts only please.

Moderator

OK. The constructive post would be to state that those claiming "carmageddon", the "last nail in the coffin" and "I'm never shopping the city centre again because of this" (both here, and elsewhere), don't have a leg to stand on. There is not a single change proposed that will prevent local access to the city centre car parks, nor will those changes prevent people from driving across the city. Access will still be entirely possible to everywhere except three/four streets.

To be frank, it is also apparent that those espousing such viewpoints (again, both here and elsewhere), never come back to defend such wantonly lacking arguments.

_Kaiser_ · 11-08-2015 1:01pm

noelfirl wrote: »

OK. The constructive post would be to state that those claiming "carmageddon", the "last nail in the coffin" and "I'm never shopping the city centre again because of this" (both here, and elsewhere), don't have a leg to stand on. There is not a single change proposed that will prevent local access to the city centre car parks, nor will those changes prevent people from driving across the city. Access will still be entirely possible to everywhere except three/four streets.

To be frank, it is also apparent that those espousing such viewpoints (again, both here and elsewhere), never come back to defend such wantonly lacking arguments.

There's no need to "defend" anything.. the points have been made.

Those who value their time and have access to alternatives (ie: cars) will take their business elsewhere -this thread was about shopping, not commuting to work after all.

But on that latter point, I wouldn't accept a job in the City Centre that didn't come with flexible hours/work from home options and free onsite parking. I wasted far too many years standing around at bus stops/platforms for buses/DARTs that didn't come and taking the "scenic route" to and from work - even allowing for traffic I could do it in half the time by car.

For all those who are happy to get dropped off somewhere in town, and then have to walk or make another connection to your eventual destination, fair play to ye. It's just as a much a choice as driving the car and if you have that kind of time and patience then why not?

For me though I value my time, comfort and flexibility more and public transport doesn't offer any better - or even comparable - alternatives on those fronts.

Carawaystick · 11-08-2015 1:02pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Well actually officially that is a QBC but like most of the other ones it does have gaps in the on street priority.

None of our QBCs have 100% priority for the entire route.

There is a substantial amount of bus priority on that route.

There is, and with the cat and cage works finished, the main bottleneck is gone. But the brt plan had full buslane the whole way. including the non-bus lane sections I mentioned, apart from Santry...

LXFlyer · 11-08-2015 1:04pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

There is, and with the cat and cage works finished, the main bottleneck is gone. But the brt plan had full buslane the whole way. including the non-bus lane sections I mentioned, apart from Santry...

But BRT does not equal a QBC - the latter implies substantial bus priority - it does not equal full priority as you seem to think.

BRT takes it a step further to more or less full priority.

LXFlyer · 11-08-2015 1:13pm

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

There's no need to "defend" anything.. the points have been made.

Those who value their time and have access to alternatives (ie: cars) will take their business elsewhere -this thread was about shopping, not commuting to work after all.

But on that latter point, I wouldn't accept a job in the City Centre that didn't come with flexible hours/work from home options and free onsite parking. I wasted far too many years standing around at bus stops/platforms for buses/DARTs that didn't come and taking the "scenic route" to and from work - even allowing for traffic I could do it in half the time by car.

For all those who are happy to get dropped off somewhere in town, and then have to walk or make another connection to your eventual destination, fair play to ye. It's just as a much a choice as driving the car and if you have that kind of time and patience then why not?

For me though I value my time, comfort and flexibility more and public transport doesn't offer any better - or even comparable - alternatives on those fronts.

I think it boils down to the fact that the only public transport option that you would accept is one that offers you want door-to-door transport for your precise journey, and that frankly is impossible for most options.

Thankfully most people don't share that view and don't mind a short walk at either end of the route.

I also seem to recall that some of your trips were not exactly straightforward such as Virginia to East Point, or were orbital which don't always lend themselves to public transport due to the unique nature of most people's trips. Simple radial journeys into/out of the city centre do lend themselves to public transport however.

_Kaiser_ · 11-08-2015 1:17pm

hardCopy wrote: »

That post is absolute manure of the highest order. What have cars and gridlock got to do with Irish culture?

This was irish culture before Dublin City Council made sh1t of it.

Actually I'd say that was Irish Culture in a time where money and jobs weren't exactly plentiful. When that changed so too did people's expectations and ability to do something about it.

Where the Council/Government (and indeed the CIE group) failed was not investing in better quality services and infrastructure until it was too late - now they have to do it half-assed as usual (LEAP, BRT vs full underground, and the belated joining of the LUAS lines etc)

bk · 11-08-2015 1:22pm

I heard a representative from the Dublin Car Parks Association talking on the radio and it had my blood boiling!

Basically he said that instead of a complete car ban from College Green, they would prefer London style congestion charging.

So reading between the lines, they want rich feckers in their Mercs and BMW's to continue to be able to drive into the city, pay an expensive congestion charge, pay in their car parks at €6 an hour, all so they can go shopping in Brown Thomas :mad:

To be honest what the NTA is proposing is much fairer to the majority of people who shop in Dublin. Remember, 81% of shoppers in Dublin City got their by walking, cycling, bus, Luas or DART. A mere 19% drove!

The reality is people who drive to Blanchardstown, Dundrum, etc. do so because of free parking. So unless the Dublin Car Parking Association plans to give away free parking, then this simply isn't going to change.

If Dublin City Center wants to compete, then it needs to offer something different to the Blanchardstowns, something that makes it worth leaving your car at home and getting the bus into town.

That difference is an attractive, liveable, city, where it is nice and comfortable to walk around, with lots of onstreet cafes, bar, restaurants, small boutique jewellery and clothing shops. A fun, comfortable and lively shopping and entertainment experience.

Just look at South William Street, around Pyg, all the outdoor bars and restaurants there that are usually jam packed with people. Now imagine how much better and friendlier that street would be if it had no cars on it crawling in and out of the stupid car parks there!

The problem we have in Dublin, is that car drivers only make up 19% of shoppers, yet they easily take up over 75% of the road space! That simply isn't fair and can't be allowed to continue. Their needs to be a rebalancing of road space to reflect the majority of people who actually live and use the city center.

Also the other big problem is that the population of the city is expected to explode over the next 10 years. There is absolutely no way the city with it's small medieval streets can cope with such an increase in car traffic, the city would simply grind to a halt. We are already seeing it with a massive increase in congestion over the last year as the economy is picking up.

This simply can't be left to continue, their simply isn't the road space. It doesn't matter if you like it or not, there simply isn't any other option at this point. The only viable option now to ensure the city doesn't grind to a halt with gridlock and can continue to expand, is by reducing the number of cars coming into the city and improve public transport by giving over more road space to public transport, pedestrians and cyclists.

There simply is no other option and I've yet to see anybody offer an alternative option to the problem of car gridlock.

The only question I've seen is should we simply ban cars from certain key streets like the NTA is proposing or alternatively introduce London style congestion charging like the Car Parks Association is looking for?

Given those options, I think what the NTA is proposing is fairer, as it equally effects everyone, while congestion charging tends to benefit the rich at the expensive of the less well off!

_Kaiser_ · 11-08-2015 1:23pm

lxflyer wrote: »

I think it boils down to the fact that the only public transport option that you would accept is one that offers you want door-to-door transport for your precise journey, and that frankly is impossible for most options.

Thankfully most people don't share that view and don't mind a short walk at either end of the route.

I also seem to recall that some of your trips were not exactly straightforward such as Virginia to East Point, or were orbital which don't always lend themselves to public transport due to the unique nature of most people's trips. Simple radial journeys into/out of the city centre do lend themselves to public transport however.

Indeed, maybe I'm just unlucky that I end up living/working places where public transport is at its slowest and most awkward

.. but it's very simple to run a bus/train from A-B in a straight line. How many of these trips represent the average worker's journey or shopping trip though?

Edited to add: Oh, I actually did have the door-to-door option if I'd wanted it until a few months ago, but again it was slower, expensive and no advantage to me as I still need a car for longer trips. All it would have represented was more cost and lost time.

People put up with the additional walking, changing, and delays because they have to - that's entirely different from them happily buying into the idea though. If you gave those people the alternative, how many would jump at the chance and never look back?

Eugene Norman · 11-08-2015 1:34pm

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Indeed, maybe I'm just unlucky that I end up living/working places where public transport is at its slowest and most awkward .. but it's very simple to run a bus/train from A-B in a straight line. How many of these trips represent the average worker's journey or shopping trip though?

Edited to add: Oh, I actually did have the door-to-door option if I'd wanted it until a few months ago, but again it was slower, expensive and no advantage to me as I still need a car for longer trips. All it would have represented was more cost and lost time.

People put up with the additional walking, changing, and delays because they have to - that's entirely different from them happily buying into the idea though. If you gave those people the alternative, how many would jump at the chance and never look back?

Plenty. The car park we have isn't full most days. Many people cycle. Or take public transport.

bk · 11-08-2015 1:35pm

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

People put up with the additional walking, changing, and delays because they have to - that's entirely different from them happily buying into the idea though. If you gave those people the alternative, how many would jump at the chance and never look back?

You mean if the 81% of people who currently walk, cycle and take public transport suddenly bought a car and drove into the city?

I think you would find they would be extremely unhappy sitting in gridlock traffic for hours on end if everyone did the same!

LXFlyer · 11-08-2015 1:38pm

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Indeed, maybe I'm just unlucky that I end up living/working places where public transport is at its slowest and most awkward .. but it's very simple to run a bus/train from A-B in a straight line. How many of these trips represent the average worker's journey or shopping trip though?

Edited to add: Oh, I actually did have the door-to-door option if I'd wanted it until a few months ago, but again it was slower, expensive and no advantage to me as I still need a car for longer trips. All it would have represented was more cost and lost time.

People put up with the additional walking, changing, and delays because they have to - that's entirely different from them happily buying into the idea though. If you gave those people the alternative, how many would jump at the chance and never look back?

As I have pointed out to you multiple times before, although you choose to ignore it, the main bus route on virtually every QBC does (since Network Direct), once it has served the estates where people live at the outer end of the route (kind of important), now take a direct route along that QBC, in a straight line to the city.

There will always then be other routes that still serve local communities along every corridor.

Public transport is there to serve everyone, and not just you. It requires a mix of services to deliver a combination of direct and local routes.

cdebru · 11-08-2015 2:50pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Well actually officially that is a QBC but like most of the other ones it does have gaps in the on street priority.

None of our QBCs have 100% priority for the entire route.

There is a substantial amount of bus priority on that route.

which is exactly what i posted earlier, we start out with great plans then the car lobby or the car parks lobby or the retailers who want customers to be able to park outside the door come along, and we get a watered down version, with gaps and breaks and parking bays and loading bays that actually block the bus lane and it never achieves its potential ( and thats not even mentioning complete lack of enforcement) and the exact same process is starting here with College Green.

BTW
Can anyone tell me how is Keelings (http://www.keelings.com/) allowed to park a van blocking the bus lane on Bachelors Walk outside the winding stair from 7:30am to 8am monday to friday? There is a loading bay about 20 metres away or they could stop on the bottom of Liffey St and walk around the corner, or how about not delivering during peak rush hour traffic ?

Armageddon for Dublin City Businesses if people can't drive their cars into city

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