Armageddon for Dublin City Businesses if people can't drive their cars into city

serfboard · 10-08-2015 11:22am #1

RT&#201 wrote:

Dublin car park owners say high-end retail trade could suffer a 24% drop if proposed traffic restrictions are imposed in the core city centre.

A survey for the Irish Parking Association found that nearly 60% of shoppers who drive into Dublin said they would stop doing so if they could not take their car.

Car park owners warned that such shoppers could avoid the city centre if plans go ahead to restrict private cars from the College Green area and parts of the quays.

The car park owners commissioned a Red C survey.

This concentrated on high-end retail customers and it found 41% were car users.

Of these, nearly three out of five said they would not go into the city if they could not use their car.

So, 60% of 40% (i.e. 24%) of high-end customers only would not come into town if they couldn't use their cars. Back to the same oul' bullsh1t - unless customers can drive right to the door of a shop, they won't come in.
Any vested interest who commissions a survey, will only publish the results of the survey if it matches their agenda. I'd also be very interested in seeing the questions.

IMO, the businesses which will be the most affected will be the car park owners themselves, hence their concern.

I'd like to see another survey that asked all shoppers: "If the city centre was easier to walk around, and it was easier to get in and out on reliable public transport, do you think you would be more likely to go in?"

The Irish Times wrote:

Retailers argue that shops selling bulkier items would be particularly hard hit by a car ban, as shoppers won’t carry such items home on public transport.

Maybe, yes, certain businesses will be affected. But business owners are always crowing about how dynamic they are and how they are able to respond to changing consumer patterns. So then, adapt. If the car ban comes in, either offer a delivery service or change your product lines or both.

Larbre34 · 10-08-2015 11:23am

Theres a thread about this, literally two threads from the top of the forum...

serfboard · 10-08-2015 11:37am

Larbre34 wrote: »

Theres a thread about this, literally two threads from the top of the forum...

Yes there is but

a) nobody had posted anything about this survey into it and

b) the other thread is more generic, talking about the merits and de-merits of the proposal. I started this thread to focus more on the (alarmist, IMO) reactions of certain businesses to it.

I've no problem if a moderator wants to merge this into the other thread.

cdebru · 10-08-2015 1:17pm

It didn't ask how many of the 60% of the 40% actually cross the areas affected, ie how many from the south side park on the north side and vice versa, and wouldn't come to the city unless they could do so, and do so along the current route they use ? I'm guessing it's alot less than 60% of the 40%

cgcsb · 10-08-2015 2:03pm

A survey for the Irish parking foundation you say?

Turkeys voting for Christmas and all that.

IE 222 · 10-08-2015 5:45pm

Baffling that in this day and age people need cars to go shopping in the city center. Are the big shopping centers in the suburbs not meant for this. Who is going to be buying these big bulky items in a city center. I've yet to see or hear of anyone buying a sofa from arnnots and putting it in there boot.

schemingbohemia · 10-08-2015 5:52pm

Perhaps the journalists, rather than repeating the press release could have had a look at the NTA survey?

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Infographic_cityCenter_Shopper_digi_1.pdf

Whilst that supports the evidence that car drivers spend more it also shows that they are only 19% of shoppers and make fewer visits to shop in Dublin's city centre.

Spanish Eyes · 10-08-2015 5:55pm

Shops who are concerned should either introduce a next day delivery service for free....and/or a place where people can leave their shopping bags safely. Like a locker or something like that. Even a small charge of say €1 would be worth it.

Simple. Then pile on to the bus or the DART or the LUAS and get yourself and your bags home. Remember you would have to bring all this stuff back to your CAR anyway.

For me, even with a car (which I very very rarely take into town), it's hauling the bags around that wrecks my poor little arms, and then I can't buy much more!

Look, think outside the box.

As a previous poster said, no one is going to take a sofa home in their car!

City shopping is for clothes, jewellery, shoes, bits and bobs whether high end or not. Most people browse, then eat and drink. Great place Dublin, and it can only get better.

Jawgap · 10-08-2015 5:58pm

Wasn't the bus gate at College Green supposed to lay waste to the city centre?

Likewise the widening of the central island in O'Connell Street?

The introduction of clamping?

And anyone of a certain age will remember the rows that erupted over

the pedestrianisation of Grafton Street
doing away with two way traffic on the quays
reversing the one way system on the quays

I think they underestimate people's ability to adapt and also that making the city centre a more attractive environment encourages people to come in and linger and move around - instead of park, shop and depart.

Calhoun · 10-08-2015 5:59pm

As someone who lives outside Dublin, this is the final nail in the coffin, pain in the arse to get into as it is.

Even though the survey is run by the parking places I believe there to be some truth in it

LXFlyer · 10-08-2015 6:01pm

Calhoun wrote: »

As someone who lives outside Dublin, this is the final nail in the coffin, pain in the arse to get into as it is.

Even though the survey is run by the parking places I believe there to be some truth in it

Are there no public transport options that you can avail of or is it a case of that you don't want to?

devnull · 10-08-2015 6:16pm

You have to take into account who ran and commissioned the survey.

Most surveys tend to favour the point of view that the commissioner has and it's likely that the questions were phrased, and the respondents were picked in a way to influence that.

LXFlyer · 10-08-2015 6:27pm

I can understand retailers' fears - any change outside their control that potentially damages their revenue is going to get their backs up.

Retail is unfortunately very much an industry that deals in the here and now rather than looking further ahead well into the future.

But that doesn't mean that they should have a veto over this.

This is where the relevant authorities must put the long term view forward, whilst ensuring that retailers are considered in whatever plans are developed at the next stage.

PolaroidPizza · 10-08-2015 6:28pm

I agree theres no need for the dependancy of the car in the city so this survey is nothing more than scaremongering.but theres a grain of truth to it.
theres a large proportion of the dublin population who refuse to get public transport.
I believe its down to pricing...its too damn expensive compared to most european cities (london apart)
It would be a lot cheaper if Irish didnt have such an aversion to living in the city centre and needing a semi-d in tye burbs with a garden...but thats an argument for a different thread

zeffabelli · 10-08-2015 6:32pm

PolaroidPizza wrote: »

I agree theres no need for the dependancy of the car in the city so this survey is nothing more than scaremongering.but theres a grain of truth to it.
theres a large proportion of the dublin population who refuse to get public transport.
I believe its down to pricing...its too damn expensive compared to most european cities (london apart)
It would be a lot cheaper if Irish didnt have such an aversion to living in the city centre and needing a semi-d in tye burbs with a garden...but thats an argument for a different thread

It's way too expensive. An adult with a couple of kids add up if you have to take dart and bus.... And carrying stuff around with.kids too especially if you have a few errands to do...

I avoid the centre as it as and never drive because the cyclists scare the **** out of me.

Most expensive public transport system I've ever used.

cdebru · 10-08-2015 6:52pm

PolaroidPizza wrote: »

I agree theres no need for the dependancy of the car in the city so this survey is nothing more than scaremongering.but theres a grain of truth to it.
theres a large proportion of the dublin population who refuse to get public transport.
I believe its down to pricing...its too damn expensive compared to most european cities (london apart)
It would be a lot cheaper if Irish didnt have such an aversion to living in the city centre and needing a semi-d in tye burbs with a garden...but thats an argument for a different thread

But it won't stop anyone bringing their car so there is no grain of truth to it, it will stop people driving through college green area, so for how many people coming to shop in the city centre is it essential that they can traverse college green in their car ? Where are they coming from/going to that there is no other way than college green. Worse case some people might be diverted off their normal route, that's about it.

LXFlyer · 10-08-2015 7:00pm

zeffabelli wrote: »

It's way too expensive. An adult with a couple of kids add up if you have to take dart and bus.... And carrying stuff around with.kids too especially if you have a few errands to do...

I avoid the centre as it as and never drive because the cyclists scare the **** out of me.

Most expensive public transport system I've ever used.

Well then talk to your politicians as they have shifted more of the burden of funding onto customers and away from the state.

As for travelling around - there is a family rambler ticket available on LEAP that allows unlimited travel on Dublin Bus for 2 adults and 4 children for €13.50 for a day? That's hardly bad value?

Calhoun · 10-08-2015 7:15pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Are there no public transport options that you can avail of or is it a case of that you don't want to?

Difficult to get into from where I am coming from without either multiple public transport or some sort of park and ride outside the city on the luas.

I can just as easily go to on of the big shopping centres dotted around the m50 with secure cheap parking and just as good dining and shopping experience.

zeffabelli · 10-08-2015 7:20pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Well then talk to your politicians as they have shifted more of the burden of funding onto customers and away from the state.

As for travelling around - there is a family rambler ticket available on LEAP that allows unlimited travel on Dublin Bus for 2 adults and 4 children for €13.50 for a day? That's hardly bad value?

And then the dart is an extra fare?

irishgirl19 · 10-08-2015 7:26pm

Some people like to be able to drive home. Plenty of instances where peoples shopping bags have been stolen on luas etc by junkies and Xmas time

Muahahaha · 10-08-2015 7:27pm

zeffabelli wrote: »

I avoid the centre as it as and never drive because the cyclists scare the **** out of me.

how do cyclists scare you away from driving in the city centre

Seems an extraordinary over reaction to me

Rezident · 10-08-2015 7:28pm

Unutterably nonsense. Nothing could stop my wife from shopping in town, nothing. I smell agenda.

LXFlyer · 10-08-2015 7:37pm

zeffabelli wrote: »

And then the dart is an extra fare?

DART would be an extra fare - but there are buses to everywhere the DART goes - so you don't have to pay it!

LXFlyer · 10-08-2015 7:40pm

Calhoun wrote: »

Difficult to get into from where I am coming from without either multiple public transport or some sort of park and ride outside the city on the luas.

I can just as easily go to on of the big shopping centres dotted around the m50 with secure cheap parking and just as good dining and shopping experience.

Well are none of the park and ride options of any use?

I find it difficult to believe that you can't switch to a bus/LUAS/Rail somewhere?

To be honest that's more of a "I don't want the hassle" option. There are plenty of public transport options available - people just don't want to bother considering them.

Calhoun · 10-08-2015 7:45pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Well are none of the park and ride options of any use?

I find it difficult to believe that you can't switch to a bus/LUAS/Rail somewhere?

To be honest that's more of a "I don't want the hassle" option. There are plenty of public transport options available - people just don't want to bother considering them.

Exactly you may be pro public transport but a combination of cost and some of the crap I have seen happen over the years means I am not a fan.

Normally I could suffer it if it was a more direct journey but there is not way I will go through multiple types in one day If I don't have to. Especially when I can get door to door with other shopping centres.

I doubt I am alone in the i dont want the hassle group to me it is a very important part of the experience up there with price and safety.

LXFlyer · 10-08-2015 7:51pm

Calhoun wrote: »

Exactly you may be pro public transport but a combination of cost and some of the crap I have seen happen over the years means I am not a fan.

Normally I could suffer it if it was a more direct journey but there is not way I will go through multiple types in one day If I don't have to. Especially when I can get door to door with other shopping centres.

I doubt I am alone in the i dont want the hassle group to me it is a very important part of the experience up there with price and safety.

Can I ask whereabouts you're travelling from? You're making it sound like a massive ordeal, which frankly is not my experience.

As for being pro-public transport, it's more of a necessity as I don't drive (a decision not made for any preference about using public transport). And I do manage to get out and about!

Calhoun · 10-08-2015 7:56pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Can I ask whereabouts you're travelling from? You're making it sound like a massive ordeal, which frankly is not my experience.

As for being pro-public transport, it's more of a necessity as I don't drive (a decision not made for any preference about using public transport). And I do manage to get out and about!

You may not, as Im not interested in you mapping out the journey for me to show me how it's not an inconvenience. I have given you my reasons on thread for why I personally won't be going near dublin unless I have to.

Good for you on using the public transport, if I didn't have a choice I would use it but as I do I don't and would rather go to places that afford me the option to travel how I want.

OldMrBrennan83 · 10-08-2015 7:58pm

This post has been deleted.

LXFlyer · 10-08-2015 7:59pm

Calhoun wrote: »

You may not, as Im not interested in you mapping out the journey for me to show me how it's not an inconvenience. I have given you my reasons on thread for why I personally won't be going near dublin unless I have to.

Good for you on using the public transport, if I didn't have a choice I would use it but as I do I don't and would rather go to places that afford me the option to travel how I want.

And can you not see why that is not a sustainable policy for Dublin City?

This is a case of necessity - the city just cannot sustain facilitating people with that sort of view.

So if (as per the plan) a P & R site were provided near Heuston with access to the LUAS, you still wouldn't consider using that?

I am not having a go at you, I actually do accept the need to allow motorists access near the city, but I think an awful lot of people have ingrained prejudices that just don't hold water.

LXFlyer · 10-08-2015 8:01pm

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Can you elaborate?

What does it rule out?

What kind of shopping?

Calhoun · 10-08-2015 8:05pm

lxflyer wrote: »

And can you not see why that is not a sustainable policy for Dublin City?

This is a case of necessity - the city just cannot sustain facilitating people with that sort of view.

So if (as per the plan) a P & R site were provided near Heuston with access to the LUAS, you still wouldn't consider using that?

Pay for parking and then the luas? When I have the option of going elsewhere and getting secure parking ?

I can see why Dublin City Council are doing it but while there are cheaper alternatives that are not in the heart of the city and take less time from me I wouldn't consider it.

Calhoun · 10-08-2015 8:12pm

lxflyer wrote: »

I am not having a go at you, I actually do accept the need to allow motorists access near the city, but I think an awful lot of people have ingrained prejudices that just don't hold water.

I'm from Bray myself I don't live there now, I don't prejudge I have experienced allot of the crap that puts me off public transport.

As I said I would use it only if I had no other option , the stories you see all the time in the media don't indicate anything has changed.

zeffabelli · 10-08-2015 8:13pm

lxflyer wrote: »

And can you not see why that is not a sustainable policy for Dublin City?

This is a case of necessity - the city just cannot sustain facilitating people with that sort of view.

So if (as per the plan) a P & R site were provided near Heuston with access to the LUAS, you still wouldn't consider using that?

I am not having a go at you, I actually do accept the need to allow motorists access near the city, but I think an awful lot of people have ingrained prejudices that just don't hold water.

There are people who use cars also because they are transporting sick, elderly and children to the various hospitals around the area for treatments.

Is there more detail in what areas they will close off and what the cascade effect on motorists will do.

LXFlyer · 10-08-2015 8:15pm

Calhoun wrote: »

Pay for parking and then the luas? When I have the option of going elsewhere and getting secure parking ?

I can see why Dublin City Council are doing it but while there are cheaper alternatives that are not in the heart of the city and take less time from me I wouldn't consider it.

Calhoun wrote: »

I'm from Bray myself I don't live there now, I don't prejudge I have experienced allot of the crap that puts me off public transport.

As I said I would use it only if I had no other option , the stories you see all the time in the media don't indicate anything has changed.

Well that's your choice, but I think it is a rather narrow view. It's also a completely unsustainable view in terms of moving people in and out of the city centre.

I still fail to see how College Green being closed off will stop you driving to the city centre by the way.

What media stories are you referring to?

LXFlyer · 10-08-2015 8:22pm

zeffabelli wrote: »

There are people who use cars also because they are transporting sick, elderly and children to the various hospitals around the area for treatments.

Is there more detail in what areas they will close off and what the cascade effect on motorists will do.

I really don't see how these proposals will affect any of those people?

Hospitals will still all be accessible.

People will just have to modify their route if they come through the city centre (specifically through College Green), and possibly also along the Quays immediately either side of O'Connell Bridge.

I've attached a map showing the basic form of the plans.

The detailed information is here:
http://www.dublincity.ie/TransportStudy

Calhoun · 10-08-2015 8:32pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Well that's your choice, but I think it is a rather narrow view. It's also a completely unsustainable view in terms of moving people in and out of the city centre.

What media stories are you referring to?

I don't think so, there are some fundamental flaws with the current public transportation system that discourage people from travelling on it and needs more investment from the goverment.

Stories like people being attacked on the luas ect by drug users or people shooting up ect .

LXFlyer · 10-08-2015 8:42pm

Calhoun wrote: »

I don't think so, there are some fundamental flaws with the current public transportation system that discourage people from travelling on it and needs more investment from the goverment.

Stories like people being attacked on the luas ect by drug users or people shooting up ect .

There are issues on the LUAS Red Line - I don't dispute that, but on the vast majority of Dublin public transport that sort of thing just does not happen. However at the same time I don't recall reading any stories of people being attacked.

I'm still a bit perplexed as to why you think you can't still drive into the city because of these plans?

There are plenty of car parks around the city centre that won't be impacted by the closure of College Green.

OldMrBrennan83 · 10-08-2015 8:45pm

This post has been deleted.

LXFlyer · 10-08-2015 8:48pm

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Oh come off it - it is perfectly possible to use public transport with shopping bags. I've heard some ludicrous claims, but that takes the biscuit.

At least try and come up with rational arguments. Your second sentence is at least more honest but is being incredibly snobbish (to be blunt about it).

Again, though, how are these plans preventing you from driving to the city?

There will still be plenty of accessible car parks.

QuinDixie · 10-08-2015 8:51pm

Red cow to city centre takes too long, way too many stops, and is too rough. Using public transport to get into the city should not be a chore.

Diane Selwyn · 10-08-2015 8:53pm

A survey for the Irish Parking Association found that nearly 60% of shoppers who drive into Dublin said they would stop doing so if they could not take their car.

This is nonsense surely if cars are banned from the city then 100% of shoppers who currently drive in will cease to do so.

OldMrBrennan83 · 10-08-2015 8:53pm

This post has been deleted.

Calhoun · 10-08-2015 8:58pm

lxflyer wrote: »

There are issues on the LUAS Red Line - I don't dispute that, but on the vast majority of Dublin public transport that sort of thing just does not happen. However at the same time I don't recall reading any stories of people being attacked.

I'm still a bit perplexed as to why you think you can't still drive into the city because of these plans?

There are plenty of car parks around the city centre that won't be impacted by the closure of College Green.

Was there not a story recently of a lady attacked by two people sitting beside the driver on a Luas , funny though I've experienced plenty of antisocial behaviour on Dublin Bus , the dart and Luas coming from the south of the city so your statement is false.

Your not perplexed at all you have a viewpoint that doesn't match mine and are trying to make little of my viewpoint because it doesn't match with yours. The environment for car users in they city is growing more and more hostile, I'd prefer to just stir clear of it altogether.

LXFlyer · 10-08-2015 9:00pm

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I'm sorry but this is just nonsense.

I shop in the city centre and use the bus all the time so please don't tell me that is horrible.

Nor do I see a propensity of tosses/junkies/drunks on any of the buses that I take on a daily basis.

This is NOT about handing roads to the cyclists.

It's about the keeping the city moving and making public transport more reliable and faster.

OldMrBrennan83 · 10-08-2015 9:06pm

This post has been deleted.

LXFlyer · 10-08-2015 9:07pm

Calhoun wrote: »

Was there not a story recently of a lady attacked by two people sitting beside the driver on a Luas , funny though I've experienced plenty of antisocial behaviour on Dublin Bus , the dart and Luas coming from the south of the city so your statement is false.

Your not perplexed at all you have a viewpoint that doesn't match mine and are trying to make little of my viewpoint because it doesn't match with yours. The environment for car users in they city is growing more and more hostile, I'd prefer to just stir clear if it altogether.

There was one story (not pleasant I agree), and I would agree that the LUAS red line has issues, but how many journeys are made in Dublin on public transport without any of those problems? The answer is the vast majority.

You clearly have your own view about public transport which I will disagree with as I use it every single day (which clearly you don't).

But you didn't answer my other question - how does closing College Green make it more difficult to drive to a city centre car park?

There are numerous car parking options - all within easy walking access of the city centre.

Icepick · 10-08-2015 9:08pm

This will affect like 3 short streets but you could think a single car won't be allowed within the canals from some of the reactions.

noelfirl · 10-08-2015 9:12pm

lxflyer wrote: »

But you didn't answer my other question - how does closing College Green make it more difficult to drive to a city centre car park

*tumbleweed rolls by*

LeinsterDub · 10-08-2015 9:18pm

Calhoun wrote: »

You may not

Afraid those rogue cyclists will track you down?

IE 222 · 10-08-2015 9:37pm

If the car park and retailers where really that worried about it I'm sure they would have offers you can't refuse to get you in. Its pure scaremongering again from these retailers and co. There probably seeking some deal now from dcc about rents as "compensation".

AngryLips · 10-08-2015 9:58pm

irishgirl19 wrote: »

Some people like to be able to drive home. Plenty of instances where peoples shopping bags have been stolen on luas etc by junkies and Xmas time

This is just a complete lie

Armageddon for Dublin City Businesses if people can't drive their cars into city

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