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Environmentalism! Remember that carry on?

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    #32
    Spurtacus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 27 ✭Spurtacus


    Sergeant wrote: »
    One of my great 'Celtic Tiger' era memories was driving a classic Mercedes petrol-guzzler with huge emissions and a noisy engine past former Green Party minister Eamon Ryan as he cycled along in the pouring rain.

    Trevor, how could you . . .


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    #33
    hooradiation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,922 ✭✭✭hooradiation


    Sergeant wrote: »
    One of my great 'Celtic Tiger' era memories was driving a classic Mercedes petrol-guzzler with huge emissions and a noisy engine past former Green Party minister Eamon Ryan as he cycled along in the pouring rain.

    Well, it's good to see that you've matured as a person and are no longer such a petty shi--- oh, wait.


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    #34
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,057 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Spurtacus wrote: »
    I strolled into the green issue/environmental forum around here once.
    The big debate centred around having more than one bin companies working your estate outweighs any benefit of recycling in the first place due to extra diesel usage involved.
    I look forward to the day when something like that can be high up on my agenda.

    Green issues found that god shaped hole left by secularisation, people crave guilt & need to be admonished by a higher power.

    No, that was the tabloids.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #35
    asdfg!
    Registered Users Posts: 104 ✭✭asdfg!


    'They haven't gone away you know' :P

    I'm all for the environment, recycling, reducing pollution all that. I even felt a bit guilty when I first bought a motorcycle and was worried about it's emissions.:o

    But if there's on thing that put me off it when the whole thing was hijacked by the eco warriors and their wacky ideas.

    Then there's man mad climate change which has become such an article of faith among many people to the point where if any criticism of it is voiced that they practically foam at the mouth and form lynch mobs for the skeptics. To the point were Carbon Dioxide is actually classified as a pollutant. Tell that to the trees.

    The latest scare story to keep us awake is the bee shortage. As usual we're being treated to the usual: 'If something isn't done etc....' and of course some big company is to blame for it all.

    Well forgive me if I don't lie awake at night worrying about yet another scare story from the green brigade.

    If there's a shortage of bees well let's breed them. A shockingly novel concept don't you think. Maybe the people who look after them could be called...let's see beekeepers. That's an idea. Plus of course everyone will have to pay a bee tax. That's the usual green answer to everything.:mad:


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    #36
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    asdfg! wrote: »
    Then there's man mad climate change which has become such an article of faith among many people to the point where if any criticism of it is voiced that they practically foam at the mouth and form lynch mobs for the skeptics. To the point were Carbon Dioxide is actually classified as a pollutant. Tell that to the trees.

    If there's a shortage of bees well let's breed them. A shockingly novel concept don't you think. Maybe the people who look after them could be called...let's see beekeepers. That's an idea. Plus of course everyone will have to pay a bee tax. That's the usual green answer to everything.:mad:

    Are you saying you don't believe in pollution, climate change or global bee decline?


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    #37
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,093 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    asdfg! wrote: »
    The latest scare story to keep us awake is the bee shortage. As usual we're being treated to the usual: 'If something isn't done etc....' and of course some big company is to blame for it all.

    Well forgive me if I don't lie awake at night worrying about yet another scare story from the green brigade.
    Eh this ain't tie dyed baked hippies saying this, it's researchers on the ground. Bee species are in trouble and this is not good for the ecosystem and very bad for us and our food production. Plus this will cost us in real money terms. We're talking hundreds of billions per year. And it will hit closer to home too. Up in the North the colony collapse has been over 50% of all colonies. I doubt it's very different down south. A mates dad has a few hives and he's lost a third of them to this last year.
    If there's a shortage of bees well let's breed them. A shockingly novel concept don't you think. Maybe the people who look after them could be called...let's see beekeepers. That's an idea. Plus of course everyone will have to pay a bee tax. That's the usual green answer to everything.:mad:
    Great idea, only it's not working. Beekeepers, you know the "breeders" of bees, they are the ones that are having whole hive die offs and that's in controlled conditions compared to the wild populations. Fcuk knows how wild populations are doing as they're harder to track. As well as the insecticide link there also seems to be a virus and a blood sucking mite involved, a multifactoral attack on bees(though the last two seem to be finishing off already weakened colonies).

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #38
    davet82
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,753 ✭✭✭davet82


    don't worry, sure it will be grand lads


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    #39
    Spurtacus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 27 ✭Spurtacus


    Nobody every thinks of blue issues, or red issues for that matter, yellow issues don't even get a look in, there is a huge inequity here.


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    #40
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Great idea, only it's not working. Beekeepers, you know the "breeders" of bees, they are the ones that are having whole hive die offs and that's in controlled conditions compared to the wild populations. Fcuk knows how wild populations are doing as they're harder to track. As well as the insecticide link there also seems to be a virus and a blood sucking mite involved, a multifactoral attack on bees(though the last two seem to be finishing off already weakened colonies).
    What will probably happen in the short term (in the EU at least) is an EU-wide ban or at least restriction on the use of pesticides for a set period of years, to see if we can get a handle on the bee populations.

    Naturally this will be seen by farmers and whingers as EU nanny-stating and interfering, and in order to prevent the price of food from exploding there'll need to be yet more farming subsidies to offset the lower crop yields.

    Like most ecological issues, this is one where the producer and the end consumer have created a debt through many decades of better living, but now it's time to pay the piper.
    The problem is that farmers only see crop yields and consumers only see prices, so even if we succeed in recovering the bee population, the morons of this world will only see an interfering EU that's robbing us of our rights, or somesuch nonsense. As people and societies we are generally incapable of making short-term sacrifices for long-term improvements. We always want immediate improvements regardless of the long-term implications.


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    #41
    tin79
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,270 ✭✭✭tin79


    NuckingFacker wrote: »
    The name has it - Enviro Mental.

    It has it even more if you spell it properly.


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    #42
    kneemos
    Registered Users Posts: 20,410 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    Last time I saw a bee he was ready for a fight,angry feckers.


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    #43
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    Wibbs wrote: »
    . Beekeepers, you know the "breeders" of bees, they are the ones that are having whole hive die offs and that's in controlled conditions compared to the wild populations. Fcuk knows how wild populations are doing as they're harder to track.

    Made some space for them in my garden. Not especially them, but suitable like.
    Leave some ground alone through the summer months. Bumblebees will create nests in undisturbed compost heaps or underneath hedgerows
    .


    We could all make bee hotels. Gonna bee all the rage next year IMO. Good website called foxleas .com all about this kind of thing.

    http://www.foxleas.com/bee_house.htm


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    #44
    --Kaiser--
    Registered Users Posts: 6,461 ✭✭✭--Kaiser--


    kneemos wrote: »
    Better recycled than dumped?

    Not necessarily. It makes sense to recycle some things, metal and glass mostly. But if it costs more (in energy and money) to process this recycled stuff than make it in the first place, then it doesn't make much sense.

    Good Penn and Teller episode on recycling actually


    My uncle told me about a mine he used to work at in Oz. Once they mine was no longer financially viable, they sold the space in the mines as dumping grounds. It produces so much methane that they use this to generate electricity and pump it back into the grid. That's clever, but it probably wouldn't be classed as 'environmental'


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    #45
    Mr Whirly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 689 ✭✭✭Mr Whirly


    Driving a jeep or a SUV when you live in the burbs makes you an automatic gee bag. No exceptions.


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    #46
    --Kaiser--
    Registered Users Posts: 6,461 ✭✭✭--Kaiser--


    Mr Whirly wrote: »
    Driving a jeep or a SUV when you live in the burbs makes you an automatic gee bag. No exceptions.

    I agree but probably for different reasons than you.

    Jeeps/4x4s (who the hell calls them SUVs in this country?) have an unnecessarily high centre of gravity, making them more likely to roll over, if you need to go off-road regularly then that's a different story.
    Similarly they are unnecessarily heavy, making more dangerous in collisions.


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    #47
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,093 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    squod wrote: »
    Made some space for them in my garden. Not especially them, but suitable like.
    I'd love to claim I've done the same S as my garden is an effin bee and wildlife sanctuary, but that's down to me being a lazy git and it's run amok with wildness.
    --Kaiser-- wrote: »
    I agree but probably for different reasons than you.

    Jeeps/4x4s (who the hell calls them SUVs in this country?) have an unnecessarily high centre of gravity, making them more likely to roll over, if you need to go off-road regularly then that's a different story.
    Similarly they are unnecessarily heavy, making more dangerous in collisions.
    Never mind the tiny women(and men, but mostly the ladies( who insist on driving them when they can't see over the effin steering wheel. *breathe* :mad::D

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #48
    ScumLord
    Registered Users Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    seamus wrote: »
    The reason environmentalism appears to have disappeared is because it's now mainstream. It's no longer cool, it just makes bloody sense.
    Good old Seamus, only one line into your post and you've already earned your thanks. :D

    The fact is we're living in a world that's been changed by environmentalism. Our cars are way more efficient than they were 10 years ago, the factories that make the cars are more efficient, our homes are full of products that are more efficient, we don't pollute as much on an individual basis, the small roads I used to drive down that would be lined with rubbish are gone (and the people that were responsible for that pollution were the traveling community, so even they have changed).

    By all accounts environmentalism worked and we're suffering the consequences. Of course it's not really enough but how else do you force people to change other than to hit their pockets? You can't convince someone to do the right thing if it puts them out.


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    #49
    kneemos
    Registered Users Posts: 20,410 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    ScumLord wrote: »
    Good old Seamus, only one line into your post and you've already earned your thanks. :D

    The fact is we're living in a world that's been changed by environmentalism. Our cars are way more efficient than they were 10 years ago, the factories that make the cars are more efficient, our homes are full of products that are more efficient, we don't pollute as much on an individual basis, the small roads I used to drive down that would be lined with rubbish are gone (and the people that were responsible for that pollution were the traveling community, so even they have changed).

    By all accounts environmentalism worked and we're suffering the consequences. Of course it's not really enough but how else do you force people to change other than to hit their pockets? You can't convince someone to do the right thing if it puts them out.

    All due to tax and costcutting and the rubbish is still there.


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    #50
    ScumLord
    Registered Users Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    kneemos wrote: »
    All due to tax and costcutting and the rubbish is still there.
    Exactly, the governments imposed taxes on big engined cars and the manufacturers produced low emission cars. That's it working.

    There's no where near the amount of illegally dumped rubbish there was 10 years ago, there just isn't.


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    #51
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    ScumLord wrote: »
    The fact is we're living in a world that's been changed by environmentalism. Our cars are way more efficient than they were 10 years ago,

    New cars = new pollution for other nations.
    ScumLord wrote: »

    There's no where near the amount of illegally dumped rubbish there was 10 years ago, there just isn't.

    Fair enough. But we're again just exporting lots of our pollution.

    http://www.blacksmithinstitute.org/


    Taxing your way to 'greenness' only works for people who can afford that tax. So essentially it's a way of penalising people for being poor. Cars/goods are cheaper if they're environmentally less friendly.
    Under that system, the environment loses when the populations wealth decreases.


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    #52
    kneemos
    Registered Users Posts: 20,410 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    ScumLord wrote: »
    Exactly, the governments imposed taxes on big engined cars and the manufacturers produced low emission cars. That's it working.

    There's no where near the amount of illegally dumped rubbish there was 10 years ago, there just isn't.

    Don't know where you live but every rural road around here is lined with rubbish.Think it's arguable that low emission cars had anything to do with enviromentalists.


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    #53
    ScumLord
    Registered Users Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    squod wrote: »
    New cars = new pollution for other nations.
    I'm not sure what you mean by that?


    Fair enough. But we're again just exporting lots of our pollution.
    It may be that a small island like Ireland can't deal with it's own waste, we don't have the facilities needed. As long as we pay our way what difference does it make if we export it?


    Taxing your way to 'greenness' only works for people who can afford that tax. So essentially it's a way of penalising people for being poor. Cars/goods are cheaper if they're environmentally less friendly.
    Under that system, the environment loses when the populations wealth decreases.
    We're not penalising people for being poor, these are just the costs now. It's unavoidable.
    kneemos wrote: »
    Don't know where you live but every rural road around here is lined with rubbish.
    Well I guess your community should do something about that. The areas that were known for dumping in my area are now clear and I haven't seen it moved to a new area. I think one reason for that is that everyone around here has a grudge against someone else and is only looking for any excuse to report their enemies for anything they can.
    Think it's arguable that low emission cars had anything to do with enviromentalists.
    Maybe but there does seem to be a chain of events that started with environmentalists that got combined with peak oil which lead to low emission cars.


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    #54
    Mr Whirly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 689 ✭✭✭Mr Whirly


    Poor people don't have cars.


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    #55
    hardCopy
    Registered Users Posts: 5,969 ✭✭✭hardCopy


    kneemos wrote: »
    .Think it's arguable that low emission cars had anything to do with enviromentalists.

    Is it? I've genuinely never seen anyone question it.


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    #56
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,774 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Jimoslimos wrote: »
    Most of the "dire predictions" don't come from the environmentalists but rather the sensationalist media.
    Are you kidding me? Have you looked at Greenpeace's website lately ever?
    Sergeant wrote: »
    One of my great 'Celtic Tiger' era memories was driving a classic Mercedes petrol-guzzler with huge emissions and a noisy engine past former Green Party minister Eamon Ryan as he cycled along in the pouring rain.
    hooradiation wrote: »
    Well, it's good to see that you've matured as a person and are no longer such a petty shi--- oh, wait.
    It's not just motorists ... I'm starting to think the average cyclist is as obstinate and infantile as the attitude in the post you quoted and more likely worse. I know this because I've had the displeasure of discussing road policy with some of them and it's ... quite alarming. Oh and BTW the cyclists I was telling you about are actually serious.


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    #57
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    ScumLord wrote: »
    I'm not sure what you mean by that?

    New cars create more pollution. If we had longer lasting cars and appliances their footprint would be less. Changing a car/fridge/dishwasher/ whatever every five years is only adding to the footprint not reducing it.

    ScumLord wrote: »

    It may be that a small island like Ireland can't deal with it's own waste, we don't have the facilities needed. As long as we pay our way what difference does it make if we export it?

    There's no guarantee where the waste ends up. The ''green'' vision of utopia stops as soon as some lad in a suit discovers cheap places to offload waste. India, Philippines & Africa like.

    ScumLord wrote: »
    We're not penalising people for being poor, these are just the costs now. It's unavoidable.

    ''We'' very definitely and extremely are penalising poor people. That's why the tax was invented and that's what it does.

    Drive a cheap old diesel, pay a shit-load for road tax. Pay more for insurance due to large engine size etc. It's targeted penalisation on the basis of wealth. There's no option to retro fit smaller engines into older cars to obtain a lower yearly tax rate for example.


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    #58
    Greentopia
    Registered Users Posts: 3,221 ✭✭✭Greentopia


    seamus wrote: »
    What will probably happen in the short term (in the EU at least) is an EU-wide ban or at least restriction on the use of pesticides for a set period of years, to see if we can get a handle on the bee populations.

    Funny you should say that :). Some good news on that front in the last few weeks: EU votes to suspend for two to three years three pesticides-neonicotinoids-that are alleged to cause serious harm to bees.

    Predictably the manufacturers of these pesticides are Not Happy this has been passed despite heavy political lobbying by them.

    Ireland voted for this ban I'm pleased to see.


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    #59
    kneemos
    Registered Users Posts: 20,410 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    hardCopy wrote: »
    Is it? I've genuinely never seen anyone question it.

    Motoring lobbiests and the kickback from new car sales had no influence I'm sure.


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    #60
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users Posts: 28,717 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    Sergeant wrote:
    One of my great 'Celtic Tiger' era memories was driving a classic Mercedes petrol-guzzler with huge emissions and a noisy engine past former Green Party minister Eamon Ryan as he cycled along in the pouring rain.

    Ah Trevor that was just mean! :P

    gets coat


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    #61
    hardCopy
    Registered Users Posts: 5,969 ✭✭✭hardCopy


    kneemos wrote: »
    Motoring lobbiests and the kickback from new car sales had no influence I'm sure.

    I'm not so sure, the American manufacturers have resisted attempts to curb emissions, I'm not sure the Europeans would have been any quicker to cut emissions without being kicked.

    That said, I don't think it was implemented very well as it made carbon the sole priority and increased diesel emissions.


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