N8/N25/N40 - Dunkettle Interchange [open to traffic]

marno21 · 23-05-2015 2:23am

Is this + M28 being talked about election wise in Cork city? Genuinely cannot understand how there isn't uproar about the state of Dunkettle. Haven't been on the South Ring during rush-hour for quite a while but driving westbound in rush hour traffic and seeing the eastbound carraigeway blocked up all the way over the Kinsale Road Roundabout, can't understand how people can put up with it daily without pulling out all their hair.

As someone who drives in Limerick during rush hour, the Limerick SRR junctions are far from ideal but at least the traffic problems in Limerick are confined to the roads inside the SRR, rather than looking at AA Roadwatch for Cork and seeing all the city roads blocked up + the N40 blocked up for several kilometers.

Cork is really pulling the short straw for road infrastructure between the N20, N22, N25, N28 and this.

Limerick was a calamity before but now we have a fully functioning SRR, a bypass and dual carraigeway on all the commuter routes + 2 motorways to Dublin & Galway

hans aus dtschl · 27-05-2015 4:39pm

You're making a good point, and the honest answer is that people locally know that Cork won't have any representation in this respect.
It doesn't matter who Cork votes in next, there's no hope of investment:
The two "strong" local politicians would be Martin and Coveney, neither too inclined to follow up backyard politics because they're more interested in being national leaders.

You could argue they're both largely doing what a TD should do, in staying out of local issues, but since others (Noonan, for instance) are not playing the same game it doesn't work out very well.

Schadenfreudia · 27-05-2015 7:21pm

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

You could argue they're both largely doing what a TD should do, in staying out of local issues, but since others (Noonan, for instance) are not playing the same game it doesn't work out very well.

And Mr Howlin is delivering a lot of projects in, and linking to, Wexford.

marno21 · 27-05-2015 8:10pm

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

And Mr Howlin is delivering a lot of projects in, and linking to, Wexford.

NRA announced M11 Arklow - Rathnew, M11 Enniscorthy Bypass and N25 New Ross bypass as part of the second round of PPP schemes in 2009 (along with M17/M18 Gort - Tuam and N6 Galway City Outer Bypass). Wheels were set in motion long before Howlin's time.

marno21 · 30-05-2015 8:23pm

Also posted in N28 thread, from the front of this evening's Evening Echo

Storm over Port's Ringaskiddy plans

The Government has come under pressure to deliver funds for a €100 million upgrade of the Dunkettle Interchange and the development of a dual-carraigeway to Ringaskiddy.

This follows the decision by An Bord Pleanala yesterday to grant permission for the Port of Cork's new €100m container facility in Ringaskiddy.

Concerns have been raised about the inability of the road infrastructure to cope with the thousands of heavy truck movements in and out of the proposed Port terminal.

The Port is to move operations from Tivoli and the city docks to Ringaskiddy by 2018, but the existing road network at Dunkettle and N28 are already congested at peak times.

The construction phase of the project is expected to deliver upto 849 new jobs.

Cork Chamber Chief Executive Conor Healy welcomed the development, saying it would enable the expansion of the Port and "yield significant economic dividends for Cork".

However, he added: "Government now needs to provide the funding for the N28, Cork to Ringaskiddy Road and the upgrade of the Dunkettle interchange which are key to unlocking a myriad of economic prospects."

Fianna Fáil TD Michael McGrath criticised the decision. He said: "To grant permission for a large scale expansion of Port activity in Ringaskiddy without the upgraded N28 is absolutely illogical. The new N28 is likely to take many years yet and the existing road network is simply unable to cope with the current volume of traffic."

Schadenfreudia · 31-05-2015 7:21pm

I support the Port - it looks like the only way to get the road is to create enough traffic to force the Government to stump up.

Of course Fianna Fáil's catastrophic economic mismanagement is why the Government can now only deliver projects to Ministerial constituencies.

hans aus dtschl · 04-06-2015 5:55pm

I don't think it's even important to go into party politics on this: almost everyone locally knows the port investment is a good thing, irrespective of McGrath's comments.

It'll be a better thing if they can make a road to it.

Geogregor · 18-06-2015 10:01am

So what is the current status of the Dunkettle Interchange.

I know it has planning granted, but how long is it valid? If I'm correct planning permission is only valid for a few years.

Also, how about land needed for expansion. Has it already been acquired?

Michael.. · 18-06-2015 1:42pm

Geogregor wrote: »

So what is the current status of the Dunkettle Interchange.

I know it has planning granted, but how long is it valid? If I'm correct planning permission is only valid for a few years.

Also, how about land needed for expansion. Has it already been acquired?

The government are waiting till closer to the election to announce some goodies. That's the way it always goes...

Geogregor · 18-06-2015 10:54pm

Michael.. wrote: »

The government are waiting till closer to the election to announce some goodies. That's the way it always goes...

But do they already own the land needed for the construction?

If yes, then all is needed is green light from the treasury, quick tendering process, and off we go.

Michael.. · 19-06-2015 7:58am

Geogregor wrote: »

But do they already own the land needed for the construction?

If yes, then all is needed is green light from the treasury, quick tendering process, and off we go.

Yes, it already has planning permission. Once funding is made available they can start.

lucernarian · 19-06-2015 10:54am

Going by that Evening Echo article, is it still the case that the Dunkettle interchange is expected to cost €100 million? Is it possible that this scheme could be lumped together with the N28 scheme in a design + build tender?

cork_south · 21-06-2015 7:46pm

http://www.eveningecho.ie/cork-news/funds-remain-an-issue-in-corks-traffic-chaos/

Leonard Hofstadter · 21-06-2015 10:10pm

Lots of conjecture, no commitment to actually doing anything.

At least it's good that the Cork based Minister recognises the reality that Cork's road infrastructure is from the third world (apart from the road to Dublin, obviously).

Perhaps whenever the Government announces their roads programme (which is supposed to be happening soon according to the Irish Examiner), there will be movement on the Dunkettle Interchange, and given that the Minister says the M28 will be a reality in less than 6-8 years, that as well.

marno21 · 06-07-2015 11:41pm

Paschal Donohue on the front page of the Echo again today:

http://www.eveningecho.ie/cork-news/no-guarantee-on-vital-cork-road-funds/

Schadenfreudia · 07-07-2015 6:46pm

marno21 wrote: »

Paschal Donohue on the front page of the Echo again today:

http://www.eveningecho.ie/cork-news/no-guarantee-on-vital-cork-road-funds/

So, he may not be able to deliver anything - but "Minister Donohue is due in Cork today to announce a new Aer Lingus route from Cork to Dusseldorf"

Going to Cork to "announce" a single passenger service by a private company (that we already knows about) strikes me as an example of the political culture that has delivered such an appalling transport infrastructure for so long in Ireland.

If Aer Lingus cancel the service for the winter will Donohue go down and announce it again next summer?

Leonard Hofstadter · 07-07-2015 10:50pm

He's a bit more positive about doing something for Cork in this article. Not a whole lot more positive, but at least it's a step in the right direction - at the end of the day Cork's roads are like something from the third world and are nowhere near good enough for a city that has over 400,000 people living within a 15 mile radius of the city centre. With the hopelessly out of date city boundaries, we sometimes forget how much bigger Cork is than anything after Dublin.

Schadenfreudia · 07-07-2015 11:46pm

captainspeed wrote: »

With the hopelessly out of date city boundaries, we sometimes forget how much bigger Cork is than anything after Dublin.

And why are they so outdated?

Leonard Hofstadter · 07-07-2015 11:55pm

Beats me. They should have changed the boundaries for sure. Cork is the biggest county obviously so it probably does make sense for there to be two of them, but the City Council's remit should clearly be very much extended. Galway also has the city and county councils, but it's a much better setup as the boundaries are much more realistic (which is why Galway always appeared to be so much more heavily populated than Limerick even though they're about the same size in reality).

Schadenfreudia · 09-07-2015 10:07pm

http://www.n8n25dunkettle.ie/

Links to the "dedicated website for this scheme" seem to be deader than M20! :mad:

neiljung · 10-07-2015 2:34pm

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Links to the "dedicated website for this scheme" seem to be deader than M20! :mad:

n8n25dunkettle'dot'jacobs'dot'com

Replacing 'dot' with a .
Forum rules won't let me paste the link.

neiljung · 10-07-2015 2:36pm

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Links to the "dedicated website for this scheme" seem to be deader than M20! :mad:

Try n8n25dunkettle'dot'jacobs'dot'com

Replacing 'dot' with a .
Forum rules won't let me paste the link.

Schadenfreudia · 10-07-2015 2:43pm

Can't get it - I'm doing something wrong

nordydan · 10-07-2015 3:24pm

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Can't get it - I'm doing something wrong

Working fine for me

spacetweek · 10-07-2015 4:12pm

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Can't get it - I'm doing something wrong

Did you:
-add http:
-remove www
-change ie to com

Then it works.

Chris_5339762 · 10-07-2015 7:44pm

Lord above

http://n8n25dunkettle.jacobs.com/

Schadenfreudia · 10-07-2015 9:59pm

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Lord above

http://n8n25dunkettle.jacobs.com/

Yes! Yes! Yes!

:pac::):D:D

Thank you!

AugustusMinimus · 10-07-2015 10:04pm

Was there a reason the brown option wasn't used. Looked to have all movements free flow unlike the red option.

Schadenfreudia · 10-07-2015 10:17pm

Coming off the M8 heading for the city centre seems to be a bit tortuous?

AugustusMinimus · 12-07-2015 3:00pm

The more I think about it, the more I think that this scheme and the M28 will get funding fairly shortly. Certainly Cork will have to be buttered up to some degree by the current government facing into the next general election.

People, bookmark what I'm about to say.

The opening of the Sarsfield and Bandon Road Roundabout flyovers resulted in one huge unintended consequence. That is huge tailbacks travelling east over the Douglas flyover. The current flyover, allied with inadequate space for merging is causing this. It only became apparent though with the extra flow through of traffic that the new flyovers caused.

So, what about the other direction. At rush hour, there are considerable tailbacks travelling west over the Douglas flyover. Partially caused by merging from the Bloomfield Interchange and partially due to people slowing down going over the flyover and causing phantom tailbacks.

Now, what exactly is gonna happen here when both the Dunkettle Interchange and M28 is done. There is going to be absolute chaos backing off the Douglas flyover travelling west at both rush hours.

Both schemes will be complete and then we'll be crying out for a widening of the Douglas flyover to 3 lanes each way. It will have to be done IMO.

the dark phantom · 12-07-2015 3:09pm

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Coming off the M8 heading for the city centre seems to be a bit tortuous?

Its pathetic and will cause problems as soon as its built.

AugustusMinimus · 12-07-2015 3:40pm

the dark phantom wrote: »

Its pathetic and will cause problems as soon as its built.

It won't. You will have to go through 2 roundabouts to do this. However, this movement will have priority at both roundabouts and out of all the traffic movements, it will probably carry less than 10% of the junction traffic.

The only problem may be people getting to understand the junction.

KCAccidental · 12-07-2015 5:07pm

I think that with the North Ring road being planned, the thought was that there wouldn't be too many movements from M8 to City centre from dunkettle. Unfortunately the North Ring looks like a pipe dream at this stage

Chris_5339762 · 12-07-2015 5:32pm

the dark phantom wrote: »

Its pathetic and will cause problems as soon as its built.

The idea is to pull traffic from Dublin down through the tunnel and into the city via the N27, with traffic from the east going in through Tivoli.

AugustusMinimus · 12-07-2015 5:58pm

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

The idea is to pull traffic from Dublin down through the tunnel and into the city via the N27, with traffic from the east going in through Tivoli.

I seriously doubt this. SRR is congested enough already. As I've said, this movement will have priority on both roundabouts and there won't be an issue.

marno21 · 12-07-2015 6:23pm

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

I seriously doubt this. SRR is congested enough already. As I've said, this movement will have priority on both roundabouts and there won't be an issue.

To be fair, so is the N8 inbound, there are regular delays where the dual carraigeway ends before the flyover (very shortsighted not having an extra 100m of DC and let it split at the flyover.

AugustusMinimus · 12-07-2015 6:32pm

marno21 wrote: »

To be fair, so is the N8 inbound, there are regular delays where the dual carraigeway ends before the flyover (very shortsighted not having an extra 100m of DC and let it split at the flyover.

Traffic usually ignores the line markings and form 2 lanes of traffic anyways. Should be lined like this I agree though.

hans aus dtschl · 13-07-2015 3:49pm

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

The more I think about it, the more I think that this scheme and the M28 will get funding fairly shortly. Certainly Cork will have to be buttered up to some degree by the current government facing into the next general election.

People, bookmark what I'm about to say.

The opening of the Sarsfield and Bandon Road Roundabout flyovers resulted in one huge unintended consequence. That is huge tailbacks travelling east over the Douglas flyover. The current flyover, allied with inadequate space for merging is causing this. It only became apparent though with the extra flow through of traffic that the new flyovers caused.

So, what about the other direction. At rush hour, there are considerable tailbacks travelling west over the Douglas flyover. Partially caused by merging from the Bloomfield Interchange and partially due to people slowing down going over the flyover and causing phantom tailbacks.

Now, what exactly is gonna happen here when both the Dunkettle Interchange and M28 is done. There is going to be absolute chaos backing off the Douglas flyover travelling west at both rush hours.

Both schemes will be complete and then we'll be crying out for a widening of the Douglas flyover to 3 lanes each way. It will have to be done IMO.

Very interesting. You could well be on the money here.

Again as someone else mentioned, a piece of the problem is that the NRA wanted a north ring but it's not really on the radar at all.

We'll possibly have a South Ring in crisis before a North Ring happens. There's no Emergency Department Hospital easily accessible to East/North Cork, and the proposed Port traffic comes through Bloomfield Interchange so this issue would probably grow all sorts of arms and legs if you're right: particularly given the City/County split.

On the City/County split itself: Douglas, Glanmire, Ballincollig, etc are all County. They're quite built up (around 60k people in just those three: same as Limerick City). The County needs the rates and is unwilling to hand over these areas to the City, so we have a situation where I guess something like half of the effective City population has a county address.

hans aus dtschl · 13-07-2015 3:58pm

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

I seriously doubt this. SRR is congested enough already. As I've said, this movement will have priority on both roundabouts and there won't be an issue.

I think you're wrong here (but hope you're right).

I fear tailbacks both north and south of the interchange, where North-origin traffic mixes with South-origin traffic to get both East and West. They've proposed all this traffic merging at 50kmh, sharing with pedestrians and cyclists (who'll cross it at 90 degrees).

At the moment traffic is backs up for several km North and South of the Interchange. It backs up again immediately east of the Interchange. I just don't see how this can all be processed into Little Island fast enough. I believe that the 10% of N-W traffic will be stuck behind another 70% of the traffic at rush hour.

marno21 · 13-07-2015 4:08pm

Assuming the North Ring Road gets built at some stage, the rebranded M8 as N40 north of Dunkettle should be under motorway restrictions from the NRR through Dunkettle and through the tunnel.

Only problem here is what happens with the all-purpose southbound N8 from the slip road to Dunkettle.

The N8 should be redesignated the N25 from the Dunkettle ROUNDABOUT (where the N8 currently meets the R639) and given motorway restrictions as far as the HQDC extends eastwards to Carrigtwohill.

Otherwise nothing stopping pedestrians walking on the freeflow interchange, reckless stuff.

hans aus dtschl · 13-07-2015 5:07pm

Can that be done Marno?

I might be wrong but I believe that you can only have motorway status where a secondary (non-motorway) route exists?

marno21 · 13-07-2015 5:21pm

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Can that be done Marno?

I might be wrong but I believe that you can only have motorway status where a secondary (non-motorway) route exists?

R639 alternative route for above Dunkettle
Alternative for JLT would be through the city
As for N25, old road? Not too familiar with that one.

M50 and Port Tunnel in Dublin are the precedent for this.

AugustusMinimus · 13-07-2015 6:20pm

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

I think you're wrong here (but hope you're right).

I fear tailbacks both north and south of the interchange, where North-origin traffic mixes with South-origin traffic to get both East and West. They've proposed all this traffic merging at 50kmh, sharing with pedestrians and cyclists (who'll cross it at 90 degrees).

At the moment traffic is backs up for several km North and South of the Interchange. It backs up again immediately east of the Interchange. I just don't see how this can all be processed into Little Island fast enough. I believe that the 10% of N-W traffic will be stuck behind another 70% of the traffic at rush hour.

Bottom left is the movement in question.

I wasn't correct actually. There is one movement which will take priority at the first roundabout, but it will take cars exiting from Little Island and that exit is usually very quiet.

Should be alright I'd say.

hans aus dtschl · 14-07-2015 10:30am

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Bottom left is the movement in question.

I wasn't correct actually. There is one movement which will take priority at the first roundabout, but it will take cars exiting from Little Island and that exit is usually very quiet.

Should be alright I'd say.

Just to be clear for others I'm referring to all but the top left graphic using one lane. That lane will be 50kmh. It will have pedestrians and cyclists crossing at 90 degrees. And there is another traffic flow (from South to East/Little Island) also using that same lane.

Given that Little Island currently sees 2km tailbacks most morning, I just can't see how this will work. The bottlenecks originate in the centre of Little Island itself, they will surely come back along the main road.

I really hope I'm wrong, by the way.

moyners · 14-07-2015 10:41am

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Just to be clear for others I'm referring to all but the top left graphic using one lane. That lane will be 50kmh. It will have pedestrians and cyclists crossing at 90 degrees. And there is another traffic flow (from South to East/Little Island) also using that same lane.

Given that Little Island currently sees 2km tailbacks most morning, I just can't see how this will work. The bottlenecks originate in the centre of Little Island itself, they will surely come back along the main road.

I really hope I'm wrong, by the way.

Isn't that an entirely new road into Little Island though? (looking at the current road layout on googe maps) It may relieve the current road somewhat by letting vehicles destined for the westerly side to use the new junction instead?

AugustusMinimus · 14-07-2015 11:01am

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Just to be clear for others I'm referring to all but the top left graphic using one lane. That lane will be 50kmh. It will have pedestrians and cyclists crossing at 90 degrees. And there is another traffic flow (from South to East/Little Island) also using that same lane.

Given that Little Island currently sees 2km tailbacks most morning, I just can't see how this will work. The bottlenecks originate in the centre of Little Island itself, they will surely come back along the main road.

I really hope I'm wrong, by the way.

As Moyners has noted, this is a different entrance to the one that backs up in the mornings. There's no traffic lights at this one anywhere near the junction. Would be hopeful that no traffic will back up here.

In fact, this should greatly improve access to Little Island.

hans aus dtschl · 14-07-2015 12:10pm

Oh I do realise that, guys, I just don't believe Little Island itself can take the volume of traffic currently entering/exiting: the infrastructure within Little Island is not good enough. This new entrance to Little Island means all industrial traffic will pass the national school. I believe that the traffic will back up on to the main road, blocking the entire junction.

And that's without discussing the pedestrian/cyclist crossing half way along the slip road. I just don't think that bringing the motorway traffic east will work out. In the long run, I see Dublin-Cork traffic going through Glanmire to avoid the interchange tailbacks.

I hope you're both right guys, it'd be great if you are.
I'd be happy to be wrong on this one.

hans aus dtschl · 14-07-2015 12:17pm

The other thing to note is that the majority of traffic into/out of Little Island does not access the west of the island. There's already an entrance at this side, which is not as heavily used as the eastern one.

Almost all of the traffic will be going east upon entry.

Now again, I hope you're both right and perhaps both entrances working together will solve the issue: fingers crossed.

moyners · 14-07-2015 12:19pm

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

The other thing to note is that the majority of traffic into/out of Little Island does not access the west of the island. There's already an entrance at this side, which is not as heavily used as the eastern one.

Almost all of the traffic will be going east upon entry.

Now again, I hope you're both right and perhaps both entrances working together will solve the issue: fingers crossed.

I have only a passing knowledge of Little Island so I could very well be wrong

hans aus dtschl · 14-07-2015 12:21pm

Yep I have to deal with entrance to Little Island pretty regularly for work, variously from the North, and from the South.

Perhaps I'm being too pessimistic though, having been stuck in traffic one too many a time.

N8/N25/N40 - Dunkettle Interchange [open to traffic]

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