Rolex without papers

Jude13 · 19-05-2015 12:57pm #1

Hi there,

I dropped into a jewelers in Dublin and they happend to have a very nice second hand Rolex that I have wanted since I was a kid. I have seen a fair few on the internet however I am not comfortable handing over in the region of 5K online.

So there were a few drawbacks to this watch I thought off and I was wondering if they were legitimate:
1. There were no original rolex papers, only a box. The jeweler (not sure I can name them) said they would provide a letter saying it was a genuine timepiece.
2. The bezel was faded, so the jeweler said they could replace it however the faded one is more sought after....

Is the above legitimate or is it just salemanship?
If it is baloney how much of a discount might I be able to wrangle?

Thanks in advance

CarltonBrowne · 19-05-2015 2:44pm

A few random thoughts.

1. If you have any doubt then walk away - simple as that.
2. I assume the jeweller isn't a Rolex approved dealer otherwise you wouldn't be here. Don't even think of changing the bezel (insert) as the faded one is definitely more sought after and I wouldn't necessarily trust a non-AD to fit a true Rolex part.
3. What is the watch and do you have any pictures? If you can post them here then somebody maybe able to give a critical view.
4. What particular watch are you after - I'm sure we may be able to point you into the direction of other sources?
5. It's not clear whether the Dublin seller is asking €5k or some other internet retailer.
6. The watch is probably a real Rolex but you also want some re-assurance that it is as near as possible to how it left the factory. i.e. is not a franken/marriage. You also might want some indication that it's not on the Rolex lost and stolen register - very difficult these days as they withdrew this from the general public a couple of years ago.

Jude13 · 20-05-2015 5:52am

CarltonBrowne wrote: »

A few random thoughts.

1. If you have any doubt then walk away - simple as that.
2. I assume the jeweller isn't a Rolex approved dealer otherwise you wouldn't be here. Don't even think of changing the bezel (insert) as the faded one is definitely more sought after and I wouldn't necessarily trust a non-AD to fit a true Rolex part.
3. What is the watch and do you have any pictures? If you can post them here then somebody maybe able to give a critical view.
4. What particular watch are you after - I'm sure we may be able to point you into the direction of other sources?
5. It's not clear whether the Dublin seller is asking €5k or some other internet retailer.
6. The watch is probably a real Rolex but you also want some re-assurance that it is as near as possible to how it left the factory. i.e. is not a franken/marriage. You also might want some indication that it's not on the Rolex lost and stolen register - very difficult these days as they withdrew this from the general public a couple of years ago.

Thanks for the reply, in answer to the above;
1. I really like the watch though, I have seen many over here (middle east) but dont trust them, I believe that this is a reputable jeweler in Dublin (can I name them).
2.Not a Rolex dealer as far as I know, I am glad he was being honest about the bezel, good to know
3. I don't have any pictures, it was a Pepsi GMT.
4. Cheers that would be great.
5. The Dublin jeweler was asking 5k
6. How would I go about this?

Thanks again

Mredsnapper · 20-05-2015 8:00am

Jude13 wrote: »

Thanks for the reply, in answer to the above;
1. I really like the watch though, I have seen many over here (middle east) but dont trust them, I believe that this is a reputable jeweler in Dublin (can I name them).
2.Not a Rolex dealer as far as I know, I am glad he was being honest about the bezel, good to know
3. I don't have any pictures, it was a Pepsi GMT.
4. Cheers that would be great.
5. The Dublin jeweler was asking 5k
6. How would I go about this?

Thanks again

it might be worthwhile comparing the price, year reference with one an equivalent on watchfinders.co.uk to get a sense of the dealer price.

Jude13 · 20-05-2015 8:03am

Would you part with a few K over the net with these guys?

Jude13 · 20-05-2015 8:06am

5K in dublin looks like a good price compared to that website.

Mredsnapper · 20-05-2015 8:12am

Jude13 wrote: »

Would you part with a few K over the net with these guys?

I haven't used them and so can't give any endorsement but they are useful as a price comparison. They do also have brick and mortor shops if you are passing through the UK And I have heard of people using them on other Forums.

Jude13 · 20-05-2015 8:13am

Cheers for that, I won't be in the UK this summer, I will be in Dublin and bouncing around a bit.

Cyrus · 20-05-2015 8:34am

5k would get you close to a new gmt (I.e. New model), it's pretty steep for an old one unless it's something rare which this one isn't

What about this

https://www.chrono24.com/en/rolex/gmt-master-ii--id3126713.htm?dosearch=true&query=116710&searchexplain=true&sortorder=1&dosearch=true&urlSubpath=/search/index.htm

Jude13 · 20-05-2015 8:39am

Cyrus wrote: »

5k would get you close to a new gmt (I.e. New model), it's pretty steep for an old one unless it's something rare which this one isn't

What about this

https://www.chrono24.com/en/rolex/gmt-master-ii--id3126713.htm?dosearch=true&query=116710&searchexplain=true&sortorder=1&dosearch=true&urlSubpath=/search/index.htm

I was thinking that it was steep when he said it to me particularly without papers. I have always wanted the pepsi one so the new one is not in play.

I don't think I could fork out a few K online though for a watch that may be a dude, then worry about delivery etc. Zero come back.

gerfmurphy · 20-05-2015 9:28am

buying online is all about the seller(not the watch). someone who is reputable will not tarnish that for a few k,
alot of guys will be dealing in 10 or 100s of k worth of watches.
same on the forums. Do a lot of homework when researching a seller and references may save you a good bit of money.
Have a look through the specialized rolex forums and chrono24 to get a better idea of the right price for this watch
work from there.
note: I would not buy a rolex without papers or a legitimate etc for the reason no one in their right mind will ever buy it from you, no matter how much you promise its genuine. of all watches they are the most copied, faked, hacked together and stolen . Something to bear in mind if you think you may flip it sometime

Jude13 · 20-05-2015 9:42am

I agree with what you have said. I want to buy from a bricks and mortar shop for the comeback it affords me, even if it is at a slight premium.

The jewelers is a well known city centre jewelers willing to write a guarantee that it is legitimate however, I think you have answered my main query. Don't buy without original papers.

cheers

gerfmurphy · 20-05-2015 9:51am

for brick and mortar shope there is still alot of options especially in London/uk
I would still suggest a bit of online research to get a better idea of what to expect price wise(may also give you a bit of leverage when striking a deal)
have a look at chrono24 as I think alot of shops will advertise their

893bet · 20-05-2015 9:53am

Have a look at ichrono.ie or on adverts for a seller called gitzer.

He specialises in secondhand rolex usually without box/papers.

He knows his stuff in General and I would have no prob buying from him. He says all his watches come serviced by himself etc (this bit I wouldn't put much faith in personally and to be honest I would wonder where he gets spare parts from for the service).

Jude13 · 20-05-2015 9:56am

I really want paper with it as per my first post. I think I will hang on to see if any jewelers in Dublin come accross one as I am back there quite a bit.

I left 1k in one jewelers on grafton street to reserve the next one that comes in, the one I looked at without papers was not far from this one.

CarltonBrowne · 20-05-2015 10:18am

Jude13 wrote: »

Thanks for the reply, in answer to the above;
1. I really like the watch though, I have seen many over here (middle east) but dont trust them, I believe that this is a reputable jeweler in Dublin (can I name them).
2.Not a Rolex dealer as far as I know, I am glad he was being honest about the bezel, good to know
3. I don't have any pictures, it was a Pepsi GMT.
4. Cheers that would be great.
5. The Dublin jeweler was asking 5k
6. How would I go about this?

Thanks again

1. I don't think it's a big deal if you name the Jeweller - you're probably doing them a favour and probably the worst thing that can happen is that somebody else buys the watch.
2. Good
3. You would have to be completely bonkers to swap out a "ghost" pepsi bezel insert for a new one. Truly bonkers. You'll pick up a new one from one of the forums for not very much or you can always drop it in for a service with the bezel missing at some point in the future.
4. €5k is about £3.5k. Taking a quick look at sales corner on TZ-UK that should get you papers with a loose one erring more towards £3-£3.1k. Obviously it also depends on condition, bracelet stretch etc. It would also help to know exactly which reference it is - do the lume plots have white gold surrounds or are they just lume? Obviously buying from the UK is expensive from Euroland at the moment but this may change - how much of a rush are you in? Obviously if I could forecast currency fluctuations accurately I'd be a much richer man but I don't think the current STG-Euro will last forever but there are no doubt other opinions out there if you want them.
5. My solution is always to take a Rolex or Tudor that I've bought to the Rolex service desk in St James' and venture that I want a new strap for it or that I want it serviced. They always put the serial number through their database and something will flash up if it's on the Lost and Stolen register. Obviously I'm spoilt in this regards and I'm not sure how you would achieve this from Dublin.

There is no problem with buying a loose watch as long as the price reflects this and you do your due diligence. If you do flip it then you must also be aware that the price that you ask will need to reflect this. You can, perhaps, bridge the gap a bit by getting it serviced by Rolex and then you at least have service papers.

Watchfinders are a bricks and mortar outfit and, if you're looking at the UK I'd also check the Blowers website. There's lots of feedback about Watchfinder on TZ-UK and most of the negativity has been about them buying watches rather than selling them - together with a couple of people being put out by snotty staff (unfortunately an occupational hazard with a few high-end retailers in London but soon put in their place).

Lastly, this is not a rare watch. If you're not sure then walk away as there will always be another.

Jude13 · 20-05-2015 10:28am

Cheers for that reply. Very informative.

The jewelers was Dawson jewelers.

I left 1k in Beretons on grafton street to keep one if they sourced one in good nick with papers.

I know its not rare however I have always wanted that type as my daily wear. The sub is part of the expat uniform here so I wanted something different. To be honest my OH wants me to get a date just as it "goes with" suits and tux's etc better. But I want a watch the doesn t look out of place with shorts and t shirts.

Deep Thought · 20-05-2015 11:10am

Jude13 wrote: »

Cheers for that reply. Very informative.

The jewelers was Dawson jewelers.

Very reputable company...

Jude13 · 20-05-2015 11:12am

I have heard, I still would prefer original papers for 5K range

Cyrus · 20-05-2015 11:30am

for 5k id want a full set, box, papers everything, and a watch in mint condition (so recently serviced by rolex themselves)

also, as said before, watchfinder are bricks and mortar, as are blowers, as are the dutch company in my link for the newer style GMT.

dont assume anyone with an online presence doesnt have a store, most do.

Jude13 · 20-05-2015 11:32am

thanks for that. The only thing is I will be in Ireland for a limited period and will not be visiting those other countries.

Michelle_b · 20-05-2015 11:33am

I have worked in this industry for 10 years. Papers sometimes get misplaced however there are a lot of 'good' fakes across all the brands and sometimes even a retailer might mistake for real.... I would be careful as 5k is still a lot... I have been working when a customer came in and we identified their Rolex as a fake needless to say this person was caught out previously... Hate to see someone getting caught this way but I have been to brand training for another brand in Switzerland and we couldn't believe some of the similarites between the fakes... Biggest difference will be inside the case... Plus only let a reputable watch/jeweler that is trained with Rolex to touch it in terms of if changing parts if you do buy as all brands give training plus they will order directly with Rolex. Hope I have helped and not confused you more. But of grey area however could be a case to of someone who inherited it and doesn't appreciate it or stolen ...

gerfmurphy · 20-05-2015 11:40am

Cyrus wrote: »

for 5k id want a full set, box, papers everything, and a watch in mint condition (so recently serviced by rolex themselves)

also, as said before, watchfinder are bricks and mortar, as are blowers, as are the dutch company in my link for the newer style GMT.

dont assume anyone with an online presence doesnt have a store, most do.

I would agree with this, the watch you are after is available , a bit of searching and time and I would think you would get everything

Jude13 · 20-05-2015 11:46am

Cheers for all the input it has been great. I will hold out for the best watch I can.

I started looking last summer, I have been home twice since. Each time I left my name and contact details in jewelers however I recieved no contact from them. Upon my return visits they would say that they had the watch with papers etc and had just sold it, why didn't they contact me aarggh!!

So in April I left a deposit for the next one to come in to one jewelers that I would have dibs. However, the day I left I went into dawsons and they had the watch, though without papers, hence the post.

I will defo hold out for the perfect watch. Thanks all.

Also any references to look out for with the Pepsi GMT?

Cyrus · 20-05-2015 11:48am

Jude13 wrote: »

thanks for that. The only thing is I will be in Ireland for a limited period and will not be visiting those other countries.

yes but they can all post, the fact that you are buying off them over the internet doesnt in any way dimish how reputable they are, or your rights as a consumer.

Dawson jewellers are reputable, and decent people, but a lot of their stock is over polished, and they do their own servicing.

id rather a rolex serviced full set

Jude13 · 20-05-2015 12:07pm

Cyrus wrote: »

yes but they can all post, the fact that you are buying off them over the internet doesnt in any way dimish how reputable they are, or your rights as a consumer.

Dawson jewellers are reputable, and decent people, but a lot of their stock is over polished, and they do their own servicing.

id rather a rolex serviced full set

I like this one, http://www.watchfinder.co.uk/Rolex/GMT%20Master/16700/7660/item/48366

However over budget by about 700 without adding postage etc.

Jude13 · 20-05-2015 12:13pm

I just emailed the Dutch jewelers about a GMT to see how much it would be shipped to Dublin.

I know its cheeky but as a non resident for many years I get some tax back on purchases when i buy in Ireland, not sure how I would claim that if I bought online and then shipped to Dublin???

Cyrus · 20-05-2015 12:43pm

Jude13 wrote: »

I like this one, http://www.watchfinder.co.uk/Rolex/GMT%20Master/16700/7660/item/48366

However over budget by about 700 without adding postage etc.

Watch finder will haggle

Mredsnapper · 20-05-2015 8:33pm

Jude13 wrote: »

I just emailed the Dutch jewelers about a GMT to see how much it would be shipped to Dublin.

I know its cheeky but as a non resident for many years I get some tax back on purchases when i buy in Ireland, not sure how I would claim that if I bought online and then shipped to Dublin???

Not sure if it helps, but if you arrange to fly back through Schipol then I have read that the prices in the Airport AD are competitive + you would still get your tax back.

CarltonBrowne · 20-05-2015 8:50pm

Mredsnapper wrote: »

Not sure if it helps, but if you arrange to fly back through Schipol then I have read that the prices in the Airport AD are competitive + you would still get your tax back.

It's not a current model. The only pepsi bezel in the current line-up is in white gold and costs something like £18k :eek:.

Bus Boy · 20-05-2015 11:16pm

I have bought many watches off Stephen and Ken in Dawson Jewellers. Just bought a Sub off them last year. Great guys to deal with. Best of luck with the search.

Deep Thought · 22-05-2015 1:13pm

Bonhams are having a sale and I saw to GMTs for sale

http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/22789/#/aa0=15&MR0_length=10&w0=list&m0=0

Jude13 · 24-05-2015 5:58am

They, Bodhams, dont give you much detail in relation to the condition or what comes with the watch.

fulladapipes · 25-05-2015 7:34am

I buy any expensive watch from these guys in Germany: http://www.chrono-lounge.com/

They don't have what you're looking for at the moment but you could email them and ask to source one. They'll haggle a bit but will usually throw in free shipping. 100% legit. I've been to their offices.

FdP

gerfmurphy · 27-05-2015 3:31pm

think there is one on tz, but not sure its the model your after
its a pepsi
Rolex 16170 K series from 2002.
asking 3600 sterling looks clean

893bet · 27-05-2015 3:59pm

gerfmurphy wrote: »

think there is one on tz, but not sure its the model your after
its a pepsi
Rolex 16170 K series from 2002.
asking 3600 sterling looks clean

It's a good price and suspect it will be gone today.

Jude13 · 27-05-2015 5:48pm

TZ?

gerfmurphy · 27-05-2015 5:50pm

a forum in the uk, tz-uk.com, if your not a member (with a certain amount of posts)you wont see the sales area.

Jude13 · 27-05-2015 7:12pm

gerfmurphy wrote: »

a forum in the uk, tz-uk.com, if your not a member (with a certain amount of posts)you wont see the sales area.

Ah pants. No use to me then

Deep Thought · 28-05-2015 9:01am

Jude13 wrote: »

Ah pants. No use to me then

well...if ya join, you can still buy it by PM to the seller

You would need someone to find out who they are, and there are a lot of us on this site are members

Jude13 · 28-05-2015 10:22am

Thanks guys for all your help.

3330101gross.jpg?v=1

had a look at this one, it has a jubilee bracelet on it, does this change the value or is it purely preference?

Jude13 · 28-05-2015 10:29am

Okay lads the one in the pic above is for sale on chrono24 from an Italian Shop.

The one below is on watchme24 and in a German shop.

3246754.jpg?v=1

Both 'mint' with box and original papers and with 1 year warranty. Both the exact same list price. Is there anything I should look out for?

What Q's should I ask them? has the bezel been replaced etc as they look fairly new to me in the pics?

Cyrus · 28-05-2015 11:04am

in my experience, italian mint isnt the same as german / dutch mint

the italians wear hard on their watches, so i only buy new from italy personally.

Jude13 · 28-05-2015 11:06am

Good to know. I have just sent the following to them both;

"Can you please give me some more details on it.
What year is the watch?
Is the bracelet original or a replacement? (for the Jubilee one)
Does it have the original pepsi bezel or is this a replacement?
Are the box an papers the original ones?
If you are shipping the watch outside the EU there will be no VAT, will this reduce the price?"

gerfmurphy · 28-05-2015 3:12pm

not sure you can save VAT on a 2nd hand item, if you do it will most likely be very low

Rolex without papers

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