Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2013

Morzadec · 20-05-2013 9:55am

5live wrote: »

Over the last 10 years Arsenal have gone from being in the title race consistently to fighting it out for fourth consistently.

If sucess is measured by CL qualifying then they are sucessful.

If it is measured by title challenges then they arent. Arsenal are top of the second tier, just as Liverpool are bottom of the second tier.

Just a statement of fact as i see it. Feel free to disagree

But if you measure by how much they have spent then they have been incredibly successful.

Hidalgo · 20-05-2013 9:55am

monkey9 wrote: »

I was looking through the prison forum and Dispute Resolution threads myself earlier for laughs. It's unreal the amount of people who troll the Liverpool threads .

And unreal the amount of people that get that upset over it and end up banned

mike65 · 20-05-2013 10:05am

Morzadec wrote: »

But if you measure by how much they have spent then they have been incredibly successful.

Only until they finish 5th or 6th, then its a disaster! This why I would have preferred Arsenal to have finished in the EL position, Wenger has been papering over cracks for years now. In the last two seasons they have come perilously
close to missing the gravy train. Wenger out was the cry until Christmas lets not forget. The club (rather than Wenger) are pissing about, the Emirates needs CL football but they are not investing for it.

gafferino · 20-05-2013 10:21am

mike65 wrote: »

Only until they finish 5th or 6th, then its a disaster! This why I would have preferred Arsenal to have finished in the EL position, Wenger has been papering over cracks for years now. In the last two seasons they have come perilously
close to missing the gravy train. Wenger out was the cry until Christmas lets not forget. The club (rather than Wenger) are pissing about, the Emirates needs CL football but they are not investing for it.

Yeah but I think that is coming....Havent they been paying off a lot of their stadium for years now. Rumours were they would be spending more this summer. They got some good players last summer in Cazorla and Podolski. If they can keep Wishere fit and 1 or 2 top players they will be very good again.

missingtime · 20-05-2013 10:27am

The Barca guy, Sergio Canos, is expected to sign for Liverpool today according to Twitter. Think he's only 16 so will be one for the future.

5live · 20-05-2013 10:28am

Morzadec wrote: »

But if you measure by how much they have spent then they have been incredibly successful.

Aye, by that metric they have been sucessful. But as Mike65 just posted they are beginning to struggle.

As for ppg by button, unfortunately the premier league take the whole 38 games to decide placings not just the isolated pockets of good results that we would prefer.

And congrats Morzadec on bringing up net spend for the first time in post season:-D

Morzadec · 20-05-2013 10:28am

It looks like the bar has been raised even higher for the top 4. I fear we may have missed our window, even if we do improve next season.

It's very hard to look at the current Top 4 and pick a team that we could finish ahead of. Then you add Spurs into the mix who also need to be overcome. It begins to look really difficult.

I think that Chelsea will probably sign the top quality striker they need to challenge for the league. We can probably forget about them maybe slipping up and dropping out of the top 4.

Manchester United will obviously not drop out.

Manchester City? Very very unlikely but they have been very poor since the close of the January window (worse than us believe it or not). It would have to be seen as very unlikely - Aguero back for a full season and the inevitable investment in the summer should have them challenging for the league.

So we're almost definitely looking at Arsenal. Can't say I was very happy with Wenger's comments about bringing in quality players. Arsenal have been the best team in the Premier League since the close of the last transfer window. With Wilshere fit all season and an upgrade on Giroud we could be talking about a team capable of breaking past 80 points (i.e. probably uncatchable). We have to hope that it's another frustrating summer of modest investment from Arsenal.

If Spurs lose Bale then we can talk about having a good chance of finishing ahead of them. But they have a good young team, should have Sandro back (who was a big loss) and would surely use Bale money to strengthen. With a top striker they could have got a lot more points this season. Another difficult team to overtake.

So it's a really difficult task for us.

I think we could be capable of reaching 70 points (the traditional target for top 4 aspiring clubs). It's 9 points more than what we got this season. We could easily have finished on it this year with a bit more luck. In fact, since the close of the January window we have had the ppg to give us 71 points stretched out over the course of a season.

This should be the target. But I have a feeling that the standard has gone up, and 75 points may now be what it takes. The evidence of this season would seem to suggest so.

Next year Rodgers will have to obtain 65 points at a minimum. There is little excuse for not doing that (we really should've done it this year, I believe we were good enough to do so).

65-68 points should be seen as decent (even though it would probably leave us short of CL), some good progress being made and our highest points total since '09.

68-70 and Rodgers will have done well, as it would be a significant points improvement and would be the tally normally good enough to get in to the CL or at least get very very close.

70+ and Rodgers has done very well imo, even if we don't get into the CL.

The reason I'm talking in points and not league position is that Rodgers can't control how well other teams do, and it's probably only fair to judge him on how we're doing (points), rather than related to how other teams are doing, as the league is so competitive at the moment. Obviously all the above is completely results-based thinking and a lot of other factors would come into play when making an overall assessment (not least how we did in the cups).

However one thing is for sure - finishing below Everton again would be unacceptable.

mike65 · 20-05-2013 10:34am

The points for 4th place is a moving target, as it depends who beats who through the season - if Liverpool do not win games against the "big er 5/6" then its harder, unless the others in the 4th place Cup competition happen to take points off each other and Liverpool makes sure to beat just about everyone below them home and away.

Next year Rodgers will have to obtain 65 points at a minimum. There is little excuse for not doing that (we really should've done it this year, I believe we were good enough to do so).

65-68 points should be seen as decent (even though it would probably leave us short of CL), some good progress being made and our highest points total since '09.

68-70 and Rodgers will have done well, as it would be a significant points improvement and would be the tally normally good enough to get in to the CL or at least get very very close.

70+ and Rodgers has done very well imo, even if we don't get into the CL.

Given the way this season developed (with some truly stupid losses and draws) I would expect 12-15 more points to be quite achievable.

5live · 20-05-2013 10:37am

Morzadec wrote: »

It looks like the bar has been raised even higher for the top 4. I fear we may have missed our window, even if we do improve next season.

It's very hard to look at the current Top 4 and pick a team that we could finish ahead of. Then you add Spurs into the mix who also need to be overcome. It begins to look really difficult.

I think that Chelsea will probably sign the top quality striker they need to challenge for the league. We can probably forget about them maybe slipping up and dropping out of the top 4.

Manchester United will obviously not drop out.

Manchester City? Very very unlikely but they have been very poor since the close of the January window (worse than us believe it or not). It would have to be seen as very unlikely - Aguero back for a full season and the inevitable investment in the summer should have them challenging for the league.

So we're almost definitely looking at Arsenal. Can't say I was very happy with Wenger's comments about bringing in quality players. Arsenal have been the best team in the Premier League since the close of the last transfer window. With Wilshere fit all season and an upgrade on Giroud we could be talking about a team capable of breaking past 80 points (i.e. probably uncatchable). We have to hope that it's another frustrating summer of modest investment from Arsenal.

If Spurs lose Bale then we can talk about having a good chance of finishing ahead of them. But they have a good young team, should have Sandro back (who was a big loss) and would surely use Bale money to strengthen. With a top striker they could have got a lot more points this season. Another difficult team to overtake.

So it's a really difficult task for us.

I think we could be capable of reaching 70 points (the traditional target for top 4 aspiring clubs). It's 9 points more than what we got this season. We could easily have finished on it this year with a bit more luck. In fact, since the close of the January window we have had the ppg to give us 71 points stretched out over the course of a season.

This should be the target. But I have a feeling that the standard has gone up, and 75 points may now be what it takes. The evidence of this season would seem to suggest so.

Next year Rodgers will have to obtain 65 points at a minimum. There is little excuse for not doing that (we really should've done it this year, I believe we were good enough to do so).

65-68 points should be seen as decent (even though it would probably leave us short of CL), some good progress being made and our highest points total since '09.

68-70 and Rodgers will have done well, as it would be a significant points improvement and would be the tally normally good enough to get in to the CL or at least get very very close.

70+ and Rodgers has done very well imo, even if we don't get into the CL.

The reason I'm talking in points and not league position is that Rodgers can't control how well other teams do, and it's probably only fair to judge him on how we're doing (points), rather than related to how other teams are doing, as the league is so competitive at the moment. Obviously all the above is completely results-based thinking and a lot of other factors would come into play when making an overall assessment (not least how we did in the cups).

However one thing is for sure - finishing below Everton again would be unacceptable.

Well said.

I dont think United will do as well next year. I think they will miss the sheer force of will of Ferguson but its between City, United and Chelsea especially if Mourinho comes back and City spend gazillions again.

Unless we are excellent in our purchases this summer and with no small amount of luck then a 3 or 4 way fight for 4th will be the best we can hope for

gafferino · 20-05-2013 10:43am

Morzadec wrote: »

It looks like the bar has been raised even higher for the top 4. I fear we may have missed our window, even if we do improve next season.

It's very hard to look at the current Top 4 and pick a team that we could finish ahead of. Then you add Spurs into the mix who also need to be overcome. It begins to look really difficult.

I think that Chelsea will probably sign the top quality striker they need to challenge for the league. We can probably forget about them maybe slipping up and dropping out of the top 4.

Manchester United will obviously not drop out.

Manchester City? Very very unlikely but they have been very poor since the close of the January window (worse than us believe it or not). It would have to be seen as very unlikely - Aguero back for a full season and the inevitable investment in the summer should have them challenging for the league.

So we're almost definitely looking at Arsenal. Can't say I was very happy with Wenger's comments about bringing in quality players. Arsenal have been the best team in the Premier League since the close of the last transfer window. With Wilshere fit all season and an upgrade on Giroud we could be talking about a team capable of breaking past 80 points (i.e. probably uncatchable). We have to hope that it's another frustrating summer of modest investment from Arsenal.

If Spurs lose Bale then we can talk about having a good chance of finishing ahead of them. But they have a good young team, should have Sandro back (who was a big loss) and would surely use Bale money to strengthen. With a top striker they could have got a lot more points this season. Another difficult team to overtake.

So it's a really difficult task for us.

I think we could be capable of reaching 70 points (the traditional target for top 4 aspiring clubs). It's 9 points more than what we got this season. We could easily have finished on it this year with a bit more luck. In fact, since the close of the January window we have had the ppg to give us 71 points stretched out over the course of a season.

This should be the target. But I have a feeling that the standard has gone up, and 75 points may now be what it takes. The evidence of this season would seem to suggest so.

Next year Rodgers will have to obtain 65 points at a minimum. There is little excuse for not doing that (we really should've done it this year, I believe we were good enough to do so).

65-68 points should be seen as decent (even though it would probably leave us short of CL), some good progress being made and our highest points total since '09.

68-70 and Rodgers will have done well, as it would be a significant points improvement and would be the tally normally good enough to get in to the CL or at least get very very close.

70+ and Rodgers has done very well imo, even if we don't get into the CL.

The reason I'm talking in points and not league position is that Rodgers can't control how well other teams do, and it's probably only fair to judge him on how we're doing (points), rather than related to how other teams are doing, as the league is so competitive at the moment. Obviously all the above is completely results-based thinking and a lot of other factors would come into play when making an overall assessment (not least how we did in the cups).

However one thing is for sure - finishing below Everton again would be unacceptable.

Yeah I agree with your post for the most part. Man Utd, Man City, Chelsea are more or less out of sight for the next few season due to resources at their disposal. Not saying they cant be caught but would have to have a lot of luck imo.

I do however think we can challenge for 4th. We can only do this if we increase the squad depth and quality with the sort of signings we made in January. We have made some good progress since Dec after a dismal start. I know there are things every season but in particular both Man City games, and the Everton games were ours. Stupid individual errors or f*cking idiotic officiating cost us 6 points over those 3 games. That 6 points would have made a huge difference in the run in.

Anyway I dont want to go down that road of what ifs but just highlighting some things that wont happen every season (goal line technology for one). If goal line technology was in this season we would have finished ahead of Everton.

Keys to a successful future (FACT):
1) Keep Suarez
2) Buy players that improve the 1st team with the like of Sturridge/Coutinho signings - we need at least 3 of these imo.
3) Continue to beat those lower ranked teams well - something we struggled with even in the 'good years' in recent times.
4) Improve our record against the top 10 - we need to take points from our rivals for 4th in particular.
5) Earn scrapy 1-0 wins when we are play8ing **** or things not going our way i.e. Man utds bread and better.

Demosthenese · 20-05-2013 10:50am

Cannot really guage how many points are needed to attain CL qualification. It changes per year, also depends how the newly promoted teams get on, how competitive the league is in general and as mentioned above how many points the top6 sides share between them. Its about being relative to the position you want to finish in and being consistant all season. Liverpool have never been consistant for many years now and therein lies our problem.

United/City/Chelsea will most likely strengthen this year, and all 3 can attract players that we cannot. Arsenal despite there positive cash flow will strengthen as well BUT they will not break their wage ceiling which is always positive for us

... they haven't signed a quality player for top dollar in years now. Wilshere had an indifferent season with injuries etc which means the top sides will not do their scavenging act on the gunners for a change. That leaves Spurs to contend with. IF they keep Bale they still have a much stronger squad than us, we are more or less matched with regard to funds and ability to attract similar players. Bale leaves, it is a massive loss for them, similar to Suarez for us.

My main concern is that IF we have a good season, come out of the blocks flying and really chase it down, we have not got the experience that Spurs got this season of playing some really high pressure games and generally competing week in week out for that 4th spot. Look at us this season, we won 3 on the bounce and beat Spurs to leave us a few wins from CL spaces, then play Southampton away the following week - hammered. It is a different story winning games with no pressure like we have this season.

Cannot afford a slow start to the campaign like last season. Especially with Suarez benched for 6 games. After that we are pretty much trying to stay with Arsenal/Spurs and hope that europa/cl keeps them busy enough and allows us to gain ground. Not saying it cannot be done, but just means we'd need a stunning season to achieve it.

LuckyLloyd · 20-05-2013 10:50am

Don't ignore those photos of Arsenal players celebrating in the dressing room after yesterday's game with Wenger hugging his staff after the final whistle. Meanwhile Spurs have what exactly to show for the last few years? No trophies, no hard memories.

If we make a challenge for the top four or get another 12 points or whatever it needs to be treated as a step along a longer march.

Morzadec · 20-05-2013 10:52am

mike65 wrote: »

The points for 4th place is a moving target, as it depends who beats who through the season - if Liverpool do not win games against the "big er 5/6" then its harder, unless the others in the 4th place Cup competition happen to take points off each other and Liverpool makes sure to beat just about everyone below them home and away.
.

Good point.

Performing better in these matches will help close the gap somewhat.

5live wrote: »

Well said.

I dont think United will do as well next year. I think they will miss the sheer force of will of Ferguson but its between City, United and Chelsea especially if Mourinho comes back and City spend gazillions again.

Unless we are excellent in our purchases this summer and with no small amount of luck then a 3 or 4 way fight for 4th will be the best we can hope for

Perhaps not but I wouldn't rule them out. It's hard to know what to expect from them and it could well be that Ferguson's exit will hurt them a lot. That said, I'm not nearly as confident as those who are laughing at the appointment and predicting a demise for United (I have a feeling they may be eating a lot of humble pie on here come the end of the season, though I hope I'm wrong). It's still the same team that crushed the Premier League this season, the best attack in the league, a lot of squad depth and surely some investment to come this summer. Ferguson will still be an influence at the club and to be honest I would not at be surprised to see them getting another 90ish point finish.

Either way, even if Moyes flops, it will still be a flop surely good enough to get them into the CL so they are not really a concern for us.

Arsenal and Spurs are the targets. Just have to hope they don;t make any significant gains in the transfer market. For example, if Arsenal were to sign Cavani, we could almost call curtains on the CL before the season begun.

Morzadec · 20-05-2013 10:58am

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

If we make a challenge for the top four or get another 12 points or whatever it needs to be treated as a step along a longer march.

Absolutely, but it's the first vital step.

It's why finishing top 4 is considered bigger than winning the FA Cup now - essentially it's the step needed to get amongst the big boys again.

We all want to be eventually challenging for the league and Champions League again, not the domestic cups and Europa League. Many are laughing at Arsenal for celebrating 4th and not having won a cup in however amount of years it is. But they still have those big European nights.

It make seem like a contradiction - many would say aspiring to finish 4th is a lack of ambition.

I would say otherwise - it's the realistic first step towards the big ambition of being amongst Europe's elite once more

EDIT: Just re-read your post and think I misinterpreted it somewhat. First step is qualification - I agree that with just a challenge we still haven't achieved much of note.

hefferboi · 20-05-2013 10:58am

Very nice!

http://www.elverys.ie/Product/Liverpool-1982-Home-Jersey-Red/220445/0000000407

Turtyturd · 20-05-2013 10:59am

Morzadec wrote: »

Arsenal and Spurs are the targets. Just have to hope they don;t make any significant gains in the transfer market. For example, if Arsenal were to sign Cavani, we could almost call curtains on the CL before the season begun.

Even the idea of that gave me a good laugh on a Monday morning.:D

hefferboi wrote: »

Very nice!

http://www.elverys.ie/Product/Liverpool-1982-Home-Jersey-Red/220445/0000000407

Is that a Warrior version of an old Adidas kit?

Dont be at yourself · 20-05-2013 11:05am

It'll be a very open season next year. Chelsea and Man City look untouchable with their squads, resources and prospective managers, but any of the rest could be vulnerable.

United under Moyes is massive unknown quantity; we don't know how that club will react to such a change. A poor start or an injury to Van Persie could see him come under massive pressure.

Arsenal have been threading water for years now and don't look capable of progressing further under Wenger.

Spurs are likely to lose Bale, and will need to replace him, Adebayour and bring in another top class centre forward. That's a lot of goals they need to find.

Morzadec · 20-05-2013 11:07am

Turtyturd wrote: »

Even the idea of that gave me a good laugh on a Monday morning.:D

Agree it's very unlikely! But Wenger is talking about making some signings and surely the board will realise the can't keep scraping top 4 with limited investment forever.

I fear this may be the year Arsenal make some bigger moves.

Demosthenese wrote: »

they haven't signed a quality player for top dollar in years now.

Santi Cazorla.

Maybe not top top dollar but a significant investment and if they bring in more players of his ability they will be very strong.

Their caving on the Walcott contract situation may suggest they are a bit more willing to spend.

I hope I'm wrong and Arsenal either don't spend or spend very badly.

Super-Rush · 20-05-2013 11:08am

Morzadec wrote: »

It looks like the bar has been raised even higher for the top 4. I fear we may have missed our window, even if we do improve next season.

It's very hard to look at the current Top 4 and pick a team that we could finish ahead of. Then you add Spurs into the mix who also need to be overcome. It begins to look really difficult.

I think that Chelsea will probably sign the top quality striker they need to challenge for the league. We can probably forget about them maybe slipping up and dropping out of the top 4.

Manchester United will obviously not drop out.

Manchester City? Very very unlikely but they have been very poor since the close of the January window (worse than us believe it or not). It would have to be seen as very unlikely - Aguero back for a full season and the inevitable investment in the summer should have them challenging for the league.

So we're almost definitely looking at Arsenal. Can't say I was very happy with Wenger's comments about bringing in quality players. Arsenal have been the best team in the Premier League since the close of the last transfer window. With Wilshere fit all season and an upgrade on Giroud we could be talking about a team capable of breaking past 80 points (i.e. probably uncatchable). We have to hope that it's another frustrating summer of modest investment from Arsenal.

If Spurs lose Bale then we can talk about having a good chance of finishing ahead of them. But they have a good young team, should have Sandro back (who was a big loss) and would surely use Bale money to strengthen. With a top striker they could have got a lot more points this season. Another difficult team to overtake.

So it's a really difficult task for us.

I think we could be capable of reaching 70 points (the traditional target for top 4 aspiring clubs). It's 9 points more than what we got this season. We could easily have finished on it this year with a bit more luck. In fact, since the close of the January window we have had the ppg to give us 71 points stretched out over the course of a season.

This should be the target. But I have a feeling that the standard has gone up, and 75 points may now be what it takes. The evidence of this season would seem to suggest so.

Next year Rodgers will have to obtain 65 points at a minimum. There is little excuse for not doing that (we really should've done it this year, I believe we were good enough to do so).

65-68 points should be seen as decent (even though it would probably leave us short of CL), some good progress being made and our highest points total since '09.

68-70 and Rodgers will have done well, as it would be a significant points improvement and would be the tally normally good enough to get in to the CL or at least get very very close.

70+ and Rodgers has done very well imo, even if we don't get into the CL.

The reason I'm talking in points and not league position is that Rodgers can't control how well other teams do, and it's probably only fair to judge him on how we're doing (points), rather than related to how other teams are doing, as the league is so competitive at the moment. Obviously all the above is completely results-based thinking and a lot of other factors would come into play when making an overall assessment (not least how we did in the cups).

However one thing is for sure - finishing below Everton again would be unacceptable.

I don't think the standard has gone up at all. In fact if anything the standard has gone down and we have slightly improved.

When you look at the results against United, Chelsea, City, Arsenal Everton and Spurs, we lost both United matches, dominated City for the best part of both matches and only for individual errors we would have won both games, we were robbed a perfectly ok goal to win the away game in the derby, drew the other, won one and lost one to Spurs, drew both against Chelsea and lost one, drew one to Arsenal where i feel we should have won the away game.

Give us the goal against Everton that was ruled out incorrectly, take away Skrtel's error against City and the Reading keepers performance against us and we are 6 points better off and only 6 points off 4th place. We were very unlucky not to win those three games. We were as consistent as any of those teams in the top 6 for the second half of the season but we never recovered from the bad start we had.

With City, United, Everton and Chelsea all having new managers next season, plus a decent transfer window, i think we will be in the hunt for a champions league spot up until March and after that who knows what could happen.

My only concern is that we won't start the new season like we finished this one and will really suffer without Suarez.

LuckyLloyd · 20-05-2013 11:08am

My point is the following really:

- Arsenal shouldn't be celebrating 4th place like they did yesterday. Would the 2004 squad have celebrated 4th like that?
- Spurs should have committed fully to the EL when they were at the Quarter Final Stage (or the FA Cup semi final last year). They've had a good team the past couple of years but sacrificed the opportunity of getting something tangible to define the period at the altar of fourth place;

I'd like to think that if we did scrape fourth next season we wouldn't be hugging and kissing after the final whistle or celebraring in the dressing rooms like we won the league. But that's probably unrealistic.

Super-Rush · 20-05-2013 11:10am

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

My point is the following really:

- Arsenal shouldn't be celebrating 4th place like they did yesterday. Would the 2004 squad have celebrated 4th like that?
- Spurs should have committed fully to the EL when they were at the Quarter Final Stage (or the FA Cup semi final last year). They've had a good team the past couple of years but sacrificed the opportunity of getting something tangible to define the period at the altar of fourth place;

I'd like to think that if we did scrape fourth next season we wouldn't be hugging and kissing after the final whistle or celebraring in the dressing rooms like we won the league. But that's probably unrealistic.

I don't see any reason why we wouldn't or shouldn't.

It would be a massive achievement for both the players and manager when you consider where we were three years ago.

whatawaster · 20-05-2013 11:12am

We had the 5th best defense in the PL this season. Strange stuff. Only 3 goals more conceded than last season.

2nd most clean sheets
2nd best home defensive record (16 goals conceded in 19 matches)

We concede goals the same way we score them - in bursts We are also a bit leaky away from home

LuckyLloyd · 20-05-2013 11:12am

Super-Rush wrote: »

I don't see any reason why we wouldn't or shouldn't.

It would be a massive achievement for both the players and manager when you consider where we were three years ago.

But a minor achievment compared to where we are this time four years ago or in the wider context of what this club is all about. For me, Arsenal's celebrations yesterday epitomised a club that has badly lost its way.

Hidalgo · 20-05-2013 11:12am

5live wrote: »

Well said.

I dont think United will do as well next year. I think they will miss the sheer force of will of Ferguson but its between City, United and Chelsea especially if Mourinho comes back and City spend gazillions again.

Unless we are excellent in our purchases this summer and with no small amount of luck then a 3 or 4 way fight for 4th will be the best we can hope for

Even if the summer purchases are excellent and all settle in quickly, to be in contention for 4th is the best Liverpool can hope for next season.

While Utd, City and Chelsea will all have new managers next year they're still off the radar for Liverpool. Utd are the only 1 of those 3 I think might take a step backwards, but even if they do they're miles ahead of Liverpool.

All Liverpool can do is get in the right players and get a positive start to the season.

Morzadec · 20-05-2013 11:16am

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

My point is the following really:

- Arsenal shouldn't be celebrating 4th place like they did yesterday. Would the 2004 squad have celebrated 4th like that?
- Spurs should have committed fully to the EL when they were at the Quarter Final Stage (or the FA Cup semi final last year). They've had a good team the past couple of years but sacrificed the opportunity of getting something tangible to define the period at the altar of fourth place;

I'd like to think that if we did scrape fourth next season we wouldn't be hugging and kissing after the final whistle or celebraring in the dressing rooms like we won the league. But that's probably unrealistic.

First step towards building a team capable of challenging for EPL or CL is getting into the top 4. I will be ecstatic if we get 4th on the last day next season.

It boils down to: where do you set your ambition?

Are you happy being a team that finishes around 6th every year and has some fun in the Europa League/FA Cup?

Or do you want to challenge at the very top level?

For me the answer to this is a no-brainer, and we will not jump from 7th to 1st or 2nd in a season. 4th is the next tangible goal.

I don't want to be a Europa League team. I want the big European nights again.

Therefore Champions League qualification is the absolute goal for the forseeable future at the expense of everything else.

If we're struggling in the league and still in cups, then absolutely, jettison the league (as we did under Kenny. I have no qualms about that strategy and the ultimately disappointing points tally it left us with).

But if you're still in with a shout then forget about the Europa League. I would still play mostly kids in the quarter-finals to be honest if we were 4th or very close to it. Could be argued that Spurs' Europa League involvement is ultimately what cost them

whatawaster · 20-05-2013 11:16am

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

My point is the following really:

- Arsenal shouldn't be celebrating 4th place like they did yesterday. Would the 2004 squad have celebrated 4th like that?
- Spurs should have committed fully to the EL when they were at the Quarter Final Stage (or the FA Cup semi final last year). They've had a good team the past couple of years but sacrificed the opportunity of getting something tangible to define the period at the altar of fourth place;

I'd like to think that if we did scrape fourth next season we wouldn't be hugging and kissing after the final whistle or celebraring in the dressing rooms like we won the league. But that's probably unrealistic.

Spurs put everything into the Europa League, AVB took it very seriously. And Arsenal are simply not the team they were in 2004. They are not as good and their short term objectives had to change mid-season to getting 4th. They met those challenges, so they deserved to celebrate.

If we get 4th next season the players can celebrate any way they want. It's the single most important step we can make to getting back towards being a title challenging/winning team, more so than winning any domestic cup. As long as the celebration doesn't spill over into the following August . . .

greendom · 20-05-2013 11:16am

Missing out on CL football would have been like a relegation for Arsenal. In terms of the revenue and prestige it brings, it is absolutely enormous. Big name players (if the talk is true) would be a lot harder to acquire, if European football was on Thursday rather than Tue/Wednesday.

The players have done well in the second half of the season and 8 wins and 2 draws in our last 10 matches deserved celebrating too !

Knex* · 20-05-2013 11:18am

Dont be at yourself wrote: »

It'll be a very open season next year. Chelsea and Man City look untouchable with their squads, resources and prospective managers, but any of the rest could be vulnerable.

United under Moyes is massive unknown quantity; we don't know how that club will react to such a change. A poor start or an injury to Van Persie could see him come under massive pressure.

Arsenal have been threading water for years now and don't look capable of progressing further under Wenger.

Spurs are likely to lose Bale, and will need to replace him, Adebayour and bring in another top class centre forward. That's a lot of goals they need to find.

I could manage United and they'd still come top 4. Their squad is just that good. The idea that they won't be there or there abouts next season is absurd tbh.

Neville alluded to it yesterday, but Arsenal could really start to kick on now. They've recovered from the financial layout for their stadium and could really start to put the funds into their squad again.

Be very worrying if they did.

gafferino · 20-05-2013 11:19am

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

My point is the following really:

- Arsenal shouldn't be celebrating 4th place like they did yesterday. Would the 2004 squad have celebrated 4th like that?
- Spurs should have committed fully to the EL when they were at the Quarter Final Stage (or the FA Cup semi final last year). They've had a good team the past couple of years but sacrificed the opportunity of getting something tangible to define the period at the altar of fourth place;

I'd like to think that if we did scrape fourth next season we wouldn't be hugging and kissing after the final whistle or celebraring in the dressing rooms like we won the league. But that's probably unrealistic.

I agree with you on the Arsenal point. I was surprised to see them celebrating so much and older teams definitely wouldnt have done so.
However I think there are 2 reasons for it.
1: It has been years since Arsenal challenged at the top. 04/05 was the last time they finished 2nd and 07/08 was the last time they were in contention (3rd with 83 points). Obvisouly this is due to Chelsea and City being so strong now along with Man U. Arsenal expectations are now lower (never mind having not one silverware in donkeys).
2: The run in they had was unbelievable. I think someone posted it earlier 16G 14 wins or something like that. So it was a mountain they had to climb and they did it in fairness. A lot of relief there for sure but yeah I was surprised at the reaction too.

Lloyd im not looking to start an argument or massive Monday debate or anything but Im just interested to see what positives you think (if any) you see under Rodgers and this seasons team?

Gbear · 20-05-2013 11:19am

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I'd like to think that if we did scrape fourth next season we wouldn't be hugging and kissing after the final whistle or celebraring in the dressing rooms like we won the league. But that's probably unrealistic.

Getting fourth for us would be a huge acheivement. It's far less of one for Arsenal given they've been in it for about 15 years.

mike65 · 20-05-2013 11:21am

Everyone loves stats so here is (drum roll) "The season in numbers"

Points total 61 (average ppg of 1.61) Best month March 3 wins 1 defeat ppg 2.25

Matches

Home Away
WIN 16 (42%)

9----7
DRAW 13 (34%)

6----7
LOSS 9 (24%)

4----5

Goals for
Total 71---Home 33/Away 38 (best away total in LFC PL history)
Goals against
Total 43---Home 16/Away 27

Failed to score 8 games

Average 3.00 goals per game

Biggest win Newcastle 0 - 6 Liverpool
Biggest defeat West Brom 3 - 0 Liverpool

10 games with victory by 2 goals or more
6 games with defeats by 2 goals or more

Total---Home---Away
Under 2.5 gls ----34%

47%---21%
Over 2.5 gls

66%

53%---79%

Clean sheets 16 games (42%)

Longest undefeated runs - 8 games, twice 29/09/12 to 25/11/12 and 31/03/13 to 19/05/13
Longest run without win 5 games 18/08/12 to 23/09/12

Doubles
Victories - Norwich, Fulham, Wigan
Draws - Manchester City, Everton, Chelsea
Defeats - West Brom, Manchester Utd,

Shots on goal 10.03 (highest in league)
Shots wide 7.50 (highest in league)
Fouls 9.92 (14th in league)
Corners 7.50 (highest in league)
Possession 53.41 (7th in league, yes only 7th!)

12 different goal scorers

Suarez 23
Sturridge 10
Gerrard 10
Henderson 5
Coutinho 3
Agger 3
Enrique 2
Škrtel 2
Sterling 2
Downing 3
Johnson 1
Borini 1

gafferino · 20-05-2013 11:22am

whatawaster wrote: »

If we get 4th next season the players can celebrate any way they want. It's the single most important step we can make to getting back towards being a title challenging/winning team, more so than winning any domestic cup. As long as the celebration doesn't spill over into the following August . . .

Yeah i think this is Lloyds point in fairness. Its a brilliant achievement to get 4th. Everyone one of us would be over the moon and so would the team, management etc. But I would prefer to see a lower key celebration...as in yes job done now lets kick on. Fergie/Roy Keane mentality - dont settle.

Knex* · 20-05-2013 11:22am

gafferino wrote: »

I agree with you on the Arsenal point. I was surprised to see them celebrating so much and older teams definitely wouldnt have done so.
However I think there are 2 reasons for it.
1: It has been years since Arsenal challenged at the top. 04/05 was the last time they finished 2nd and 07/08 was the last time they were in contention (3rd with 83 points). Obvisouly this is due to Chelsea and City being so strong now along with Man U. Arsenal expectations are now lower (never mind having not one silverware in donkeys).
2: The run in they had was unbelievable. I think someone posted it earlier 16G 14 wins or something like that. So it was a mountain they had to climb and they did it in fairness. A lot of relief there for sure but yeah I was surprised at the reaction too.

Lloyd im not looking to start an argument or massive Monday debate or anything but Im just interested to see what positives you think (if any) you see under Rodgers and this seasons team?

And it was all going so well...

whatawaster · 20-05-2013 11:23am

Do we really think we didn't celebrate wildly after beating Charlton in May 2001 to qualify for the Champions League?

whatawaster · 20-05-2013 11:27am

mike65 wrote: »

Possession 53.41 (7th in league, yes only 7th!)

57% according to the official site.

But BR might be massaging those stats (And Joe Allen's)

Knex* · 20-05-2013 11:27am

The notion of not celebrating qualifying for the CL on the final day of the season, especially after the run Arsenal had, I don't understand.

There was a team that outperformed the entire league for the last 10 games and just scraped in by a point. They have every right to be delighted.

Fair enough if they were chasing 1st and slipped down to 4th, you wouldn't expect them to celebrate, but that quite obviously wasn't the scenario. Doesn't mean that they don't have the ambition to challenge next season.

Its a bit like saying that Hull shouldn't have celebrated direct promotion to the PL because they didn't win the Championship. Its all about perspective.

missingtime · 20-05-2013 11:28am

gafferino wrote: »

Yeah i think this is Lloyds point in fairness. Its a brilliant achievement to get 4th. Everyone one of us would be over the moon and so would the team, management etc. But I would prefer to see a lower key celebration...as in yes job done now lets kick on. Fergie/Roy Keane mentality - dont settle.

I think having a few old heads around to calm everyone down will be required if we do indeed get CL next year.

A case of, look we haven't won anything yet, we need to make sure that this is a perquisite.

Morzadec · 20-05-2013 11:36am

Knex. wrote: »

I could manage United and they'd still come top 4. Their squad is just that good. The idea that they won't be there or there abouts next season is absurd tbh.

Neville alluded to it yesterday, but Arsenal could really start to kick on now. They've recovered from the financial layout for their stadium and could really start to put the funds into their squad again.

Be very worrying if they did.

3rd is the lowest they've fallen in the last 20 years or so.

I think people are overestimating the Fergie factor, or perhaps misjudging it.

Ferguson's main strength was arguably his squad building - that squad is still there.

If Moyes is as bad as many are saying then it will not be until 3 or 4 years from now that this truly manifests (in terms of possibly dropping towards 4th or lower).

For me United are the most known quantity of the 3.

I would have more questions about City who have finished this season with the form of a team not good enough to get into the top 4, and who have a new (still unknown) manager coming in and very unpredictable owners.

Also, while I tip Chelsea to really push on next season, they only actually mathematically qualified for the CL on the last day of the season, and came 6th the year before, so you would have to see them as a more likely drop out than United.

It would be a remarkable turnaround, a fail of epic proportions for Moyes not to get top 4 next season, a 15-20 point drop. I don't see it.

Dont be at yourself · 20-05-2013 11:39am

Knex. wrote: »

I could manage United and they'd still come top 4. Their squad is just that good. The idea that they won't be there or there abouts next season is absurd tbh.

People were no doubt saying the same when Clough replaced Revie at Leeds, when Santini replaced Roux, or when Sounes replaced Kenny. It's a delicate time for United, and there's no guarantee that it will work out.

amiable · 20-05-2013 11:40am

hefferboi wrote: »

Very nice!

http://www.elverys.ie/Product/Liverpool-1982-Home-Jersey-Red/220445/0000000407

I had one of these when I was a kid
Happy memories

gafferino · 20-05-2013 11:42am

Knex. wrote: »

And it was all going so well...

Ah no not at all. Im just interested to see if the people who dont like our current regime see any positives. We've had the other argument in detail numerous times and while i havent always agreed with their points they raise interesting questions at times so just interested to hear a different slant (if any).

whatawaster · 20-05-2013 11:42am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-22596223

Sterling assault charge dropped.

meriwether · 20-05-2013 11:43am

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

My point is the following really:

- Arsenal shouldn't be celebrating 4th place like they did yesterday. Would the 2004 squad have celebrated 4th like that?
- Spurs should have committed fully to the EL when they were at the Quarter Final Stage (or the FA Cup semi final last year). They've had a good team the past couple of years but sacrificed the opportunity of getting something tangible to define the period at the altar of fourth place;

I'd like to think that if we did scrape fourth next season we wouldn't be hugging and kissing after the final whistle or celebraring in the dressing rooms like we won the league. But that's probably unrealistic.

If you come fourth next season, you'll sh1t yourself with happiness.

gafferino · 20-05-2013 11:44am

whatawaster wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-22596223

Sterling assault charge dropped.

No surprise there.

Morzadec · 20-05-2013 11:46am

mike65 wrote: »

Matches
Home Away
WIN 16 (42%)
9----7
DRAW 13 (34%)
6----7
LOSS 9 (24%)
4----5

Once again too many draws - particularly at home. We can really improve here, and add the 10 or 12 points or so we're talking about. 50% win rate at home is not good enough, despite many of them being big wins.

Despite scoring so many goals over the season as a whole, attacking inefficiency was primarily to blame for the majority of these dropped points.

The attack was poor for close to a third of the Premier League matches this season imo and we still occasionally look devoid of ideas and cutting edge.

We still need at least one signing in the attacking 3 midfielders (behind the main striker). I'd be happy with just the one if he had the versatility to play centrally as an attacking midfield playmaker, or out wide as a modern day wide forward.

meriwether · 20-05-2013 11:47am

Morzadec wrote: »

Absolutely, but it's the first vital step.

It's why finishing top 4 is considered bigger than winning the FA Cup now - essentially it's the step needed to get amongst the big boys again.

We all want to be eventually challenging for the league and Champions League again, not the domestic cups and Europa League. Many are laughing at Arsenal for celebrating 4th and not having won a cup in however amount of years it is. But they still have those big European nights.

It make seem like a contradiction - many would say aspiring to finish 4th is a lack of ambition.

I would say otherwise - it's the realistic first step towards the big ambition of being amongst Europe's elite once more

EDIT: Just re-read your post and think I misinterpreted it somewhat. First step is qualification - I agree that with just a challenge we still haven't achieved much of note.

No CL makes it harder to attract top players, and retain top players.

Having top players make success more likely.

Ergo, top four = greater likelihood of sucess in league and cups.

Its impossible for a team to spring 4-5 positions in one season these days to challenge for the title.

Hidalgo · 20-05-2013 12:03pm

Super-Rush wrote: »

I don't think the standard has gone up at all. In fact if anything the standard has gone down and we have slightly improved.

When you look at the results against United, Chelsea, City, Arsenal Everton and Spurs, we lost both United matches, dominated City for the best part of both matches and only for individual errors we would have won both games, we were robbed a perfectly ok goal to win the away game in the derby, drew the other, won one and lost one to Spurs, drew both against Chelsea and lost one, drew one to Arsenal where i feel we should have won the away game.

Give us the goal against Everton that was ruled out incorrectly, take away Skrtel's error against City and the Reading keepers performance against us and we are 6 points better off and only 6 points off 4th place. We were very unlucky not to win those three games. We were as consistent as any of those teams in the top 6 for the second half of the season but we never recovered from the bad start we had.

With City, United, Everton and Chelsea all having new managers next season, plus a decent transfer window, i think we will be in the hunt for a champions league spot up until March and after that who knows what could happen.

My only concern is that we won't start the new season like we finished this one and will really suffer without Suarez.

All ifs and buts, last season it was ifs and buts regarding the woodwork. Yes Liverpool got screwed out of a goal V Everton away, but I'm sure Everton are thinking the exact same thing from the Anfield leg

Spurs are probably looking at games like the home loss to Wigan as the type of game that cost them CL. Every team has ifs and buts.

gafferino · 20-05-2013 12:25pm

gafferino · 20-05-2013 12:26pm

Anyone at the game yesterday......what was the tone of Suarez/Pepes goodbyes?

:(:o:mad:

Chucky the tree · 20-05-2013 12:41pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

My point is the following really:

- Arsenal shouldn't be celebrating 4th place like they did yesterday. Would the 2004 squad have celebrated 4th like that?
- Spurs should have committed fully to the EL when they were at the Quarter Final Stage (or the FA Cup semi final last year). They've had a good team the past couple of years but sacrificed the opportunity of getting something tangible to define the period at the altar of fourth place;

I'd like to think that if we did scrape fourth next season we wouldn't be hugging and kissing after the final whistle or celebraring in the dressing rooms like we won the league. But that's probably unrealistic.

I think next year would be different. We haven't been in the CL for a good while now so making top 4 when our past league appearances have been 7th, 6th, 8th and 7th. A top 4 finish and regular football would be a good achievement for Enrique, Allen, Henderson, Downing, Sturridge, Coutinho. Obviously sturridge has won trophies with Chelsea but being a first regular(if he is) would probably make this a bit different. I definitely think Arsenal celebrating is a bit werid, if we achieved 4th in 09/10 and celebrated like that I'd be well pissed off. If 3-4 years time after having consistently finished top 4 and we are still celebrating like that then it would annoy me.

Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2013

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