Cowboy Car Salesmen

pleasantpete · 30-07-2014 1:30pm #1

Hi
I recently purchased a car from a Garage in Dublin (via an advertisement on Donedeal), the car had a signed service history and a fresh NCT so i did not take much notice when the salesman stated that the sale would be with "no warranty sold as seen". When i got the car home afte a fair drive i noted oil was leaking from the engine. When i got the engine checked out I discovered all the seals were siliconed and wait for it superglued. I immediately rang the garage and was told there is no comeback. The garage is not SIMI registered, have I any comeback or what to people suggest to inflict as much hardship as possible on their buisness.

Just dont want other members of public to get caught but unsure if i can mention garages name on this forum.

P

Kimbot · 30-07-2014 1:32pm

I think all cars have to be sold with at least 3 month warranty but not too sure on that.

vandriver · 30-07-2014 1:35pm

D12?

dinneenp · 30-07-2014 1:52pm

Off the top of my head items have to be sold "fit for purpose." Yours wasn't so I wouldn't let it go.

I'd check the NCT etc. threaten him that you'll go to the media (Joe Duffy etc.)

Bio Mech · 30-07-2014 1:53pm

Solicitor.

Moneymaker · 30-07-2014 2:09pm

pleasantpete wrote: »

Hi
I recently purchased a car from a Garage in Dublin (via an advertisement on Donedeal), the car had a signed service history and a fresh NCT so i did not take much notice when the salesman stated that the sale would be with "no warranty sold as seen". When i got the car home afte a fair drive i noted oil was leaking from the engine. When i got the engine checked out I discovered all the seals were siliconed and wait for it superglued. I immediately rang the garage and was told there is no comeback. The garage is not SIMI registered, have I any comeback or what to people suggest to inflict as much hardship as possible on their buisness.

Just dont want other members of public to get caught but unsure if i can mention garages name on this forum.
P

When I see this in an ad, I run a mile. Always sets off alarm bells.

Sorry to hear you got burned.

djimi · 30-07-2014 2:20pm

Whatever the garage may choose to tell you, you are still covered by the sale of goods act, which means that you have legal backing to have the issues sorted.

However, from what you have said, I would say you will be very lucky to get this resolved without a massive fight. Assuming the garage is in business long enough for you to pursue them (and by the sounds of it I wouldnt be surprised if they are not there next week...) you will most likely have massive heartache just getting back in contact with someone in there.

It might be worth contacting a solicitor to see what they say.

aaakev · 30-07-2014 2:42pm

My post in your other thread;

aaakev wrote: »

Yes, under the sale and supply of goods act they have to seel cars fot for purpose. Unfortunately this is not uncommon and these cowboys do manage to get away with it. If the car was under 2.5k you can go the small claims court route, if more you could be in for a battle but dont give up, its the worst thing you could do.

I wouldn't call thwm again id call in with your complaint in person and demand it fixed, if they refuse demand a refund and say your going legal

How much was the car?

Cleveland Hot Pocket · 30-07-2014 2:50pm

Naas road dealer?

pleasantpete · 30-07-2014 2:54pm

3750 with repair bill standing at 1250

aaakev · 30-07-2014 2:58pm

Small claims court is defiantly out so. You need to go back into the garage and talk to them, explain the car has problems and you are giving them a week to address them. If they refuse your going to have to see a solicitor I'm afraid.....

pleasantpete · 30-07-2014 3:01pm

am concerned about liability laws if i mention their name, am new enough to this boards ie process but just wanted to have it out thee for other people to avoid this gits
.

bear1 · 30-07-2014 3:04pm

Don't mention the garages name.
It can open a can of worms

dinneenp · 30-07-2014 3:23pm

bear1 wrote: »

Don't mention the garages name.
It can open a can of worms

the can of worms won't open, the garage super glued it together....

bazz26 · 30-07-2014 3:37pm

aaakev wrote: »

Small claims court is defiantly out so. You need to go back into the garage and talk to them, explain the car has problems and you are giving them a week to address them. If they refuse your going to have to see a solicitor I'm afraid.....

Surely the SCC is still an option if the OP is trying to recover the cost of repairs from the dealer?

aaakev · 30-07-2014 4:02pm

bazz26 wrote: »

Surely the SCC is still an option if the OP is trying to recover the cost of repairs from the dealer?

Yeah your dead right, I was thinking more so about just getting rid of the car and getting back the money but defiantly worth following up for the repair bill if they refuse to pay up.

My brother had a similar problem with one of them fly by night dealers on the Naas road a few years ago, 2 trips to court did nothing in the way to get them to pay up, eventually the sherif went in and took some stuff then he paid. I think the bill was about €700

Marcusm · 30-07-2014 4:11pm

Rng him up and tell him that you are exercising your rights under the SoGA to reject the goods as not being fit for purpose; repairs carried out in this manner don't seem to fit appropriate standards. IF he challenges you, get it in writing, he has to offer one of the three Rs - repair, replace, refund. Don't listen to rubbish about having to bring it back to him either if it's not driveable.

porsche boy · 30-07-2014 5:03pm

No garage can sell a car "sold as seen" despite what they say. Definately have some come back under the Sale of Goods Act as has been previously stated, (must be of merchantable quality and as described in the advert). Take a screen shot of the add if it's still on line. I would also recommend getting either the AA or a motor assessor to do an engineers report for future reference if this goes the long road then you'll want all the evidence you can get. Also, take photos of the siliconed seals and the oil leaks on your driveway and keep a note of all times you called or visited him etc.
definately dont mention the name here but an approximate address would be Interesting, as most people here probably will agree, I'm guessing the Dublin 12 area...

BreadnBuddha · 30-07-2014 5:26pm

porsche boy wrote: »

No garage can sell a car "sold as seen" despite what they say. Definately have some come back under the Sale of Goods Act as has been previously stated, (must be of merchantable quality and as described in the advert).

Rubbish.

If the dealer simply tried to sell the car without expressly including a warranty, then the OP would have recourse.

In this case the dealer gave the terms under which the vehicle was being advertised and sold, specifically that it was 'sold as seen' with no warranty, and the buyer decided those terms were acceptable.

porsche boy · 30-07-2014 5:32pm

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

Rubbish.

If the dealer simply tried to sell the car without expressly including a warranty, then the OP would have recourse.

In this case the dealer gave the terms under which the vehicle was being advertised and sold, specifically that it was 'sold as seen' with no warranty, and the buyer decided those terms were acceptable.

No, your rubbish.

As a business selling goods they must be as described as per the sale of goods act. This car was not. bring it to court and he'll win every time.

The only way to sell a car without any come back is to sell as a trade sale to a member of the motor industry with a tan number or to be a private sale by a private individual.

ba_barabus · 30-07-2014 5:33pm

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

Rubbish.

If the dealer simply tried to sell the car without expressly including a warranty, then the OP would have recourse.

In this case the dealer gave the terms under which the vehicle was being advertised and sold, specifically that it was 'sold as seen' with no warranty, and the buyer decided those terms were acceptable.

They cannot sell a car to a private individual (i.e. not in the car trade) without a warranty in Ireland. the minimum warranty is 3 months IIRC

aaakev · 30-07-2014 6:47pm

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

Rubbish.

If the dealer simply tried to sell the car without expressly including a warranty, then the OP would have recourse.

In this case the dealer gave the terms under which the vehicle was being advertised and sold, specifically that it was 'sold as seen' with no warranty, and the buyer decided those terms were acceptable.

You couldn't be more wrong......

bryaner · 30-07-2014 7:53pm

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

Rubbish.

If the dealer simply tried to sell the car without expressly including a warranty, then the OP would have recourse.

In this case the dealer gave the terms under which the vehicle was being advertised and sold, specifically that it was 'sold as seen' with no warranty, and the buyer decided those terms were acceptable.

Suffering jaysus.

V.W.L 11 · 30-07-2014 7:59pm

the only time I have dealth with "sold as seen,no warranty" vehicles is when I asked for it to get a price reduction,i only done it once and thankfully the car never had any issues,OP did they get you to sign something like that???

moonship · 30-07-2014 8:43pm

You are busted the car was nct'd which means roadworthy and therefore fit for the purpose and merchantable quality as per sale of the goods act. Thats what honest solicitor will tell you.

anyway you should have posted garage name and never again buy from d12 area

BreadnBuddha · 30-07-2014 9:00pm

Ah yeah, here we go.

I'm wrong, because you think I should be, not because I actually am wrong.

The sales of goods and supply of services act 1980 specifically prohibits the sale of a motor vehicle which is not roadworthy (that means due to safety defects, not because of superglue and silicon on seals or gaskets) to a buyer, by a motor trade member, for use in the condition in which it is supplied.

A motor trade member MAY sell a vehicle with such defects, but only subject to a written and co-signed notice of such defects and conditions of sale.

In this case, the cars defects do not in fact render it not roadworthy. The engine may not last long or whatever, but even then, there needs to be an ability to show how the seller has deliberately misrepresented the vehicle at time of sale in such a way that the goods supplied are effectively not of merchantable quality, allowing for the age, general condition and price of the goods as supplied.

Read the statutory instruments. It's all there if you take an open mind when you read them.

If the OP wanted a warranty he should have bought a car with a warranty, agreed in writing.

If the OP wanted to claim entitlement to the provision of goods of merchantable quality, he should have insisted that his purchase was not 'as is', or 'sold as seen'.

The fact of the matter is that you can argue all you want that it's wrong and I'm wrong and all the rest. The OP bought a car 'as is/sold as seen', without an explicit dealer warranty, and his grievance now is not addressed by the sales of goods and supply of services act.

There's also the simple question, why would the OP buy a car at the low end of the market, as seen, without warranty, dismiss the dealer telling him this and not pay attention to the consequences and then think he's been screwed by a cowboy?

All the signs were there that buying the car was a gamble and that he could win or lose. He lost. That's gambling for you.

Argue again, go on. Read the act first and tell me I'm wrong again, for the craic. Point the finger at the OP instead and tell him he did it all wrong. That's what's happened and getting your backs up for him won't help.

porsche boy · 30-07-2014 9:01pm

moonship wrote: »

You are busted the car was nct'd which means roadworthy and therefore fit for the purpose and merchantable quality as per sale of the goods act. Thats what honest solicitor will tell you.

anyway you should have posted garage name and never again buy from d12 area

Oh no were busted, damn!!!!

NCT does not mean the car is of merchantable quality, although some garages will try make you believe that. Either way, cars can not be sold from a garage to a member of the public "sold as seen/no warranty"

As for 'honest solicitor'???? Whats all that about?
Back to your space ship moonboy.

BreadnBuddha · 30-07-2014 9:01pm

ba_barabus wrote: »

They cannot sell a car to a private individual (i.e. not in the car trade) without a warranty in Ireland. the minimum warranty is 3 months IIRC

Pub talk. Where does it say that? Really. I'm prepared to be corrected, but show me where it actually says that. In law now, not some SIMI rubbish.

Xpro · 30-07-2014 9:04pm

Minimum is 1 month (30 days). Often here people say 3 months, but it's not in the legislation.

Either ways, if you were to go to court, its all in the hands of the judge. Could even be 6 months if he decides. Seen strange things happening in court.

quadrifoglio verde · 30-07-2014 9:15pm

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

Ah yeah, here we go.

I'm wrong, because you think I should be, not because I actually am wrong.

The sales of goods and supply of services act 1980 specifically prohibits the sale of a motor vehicle which is not roadworthy (that means due to safety defects, not because of superglue and silicon on seals or gaskets) to a buyer, by a motor trade member, for use in the condition in which it is supplied.

A motor trade member MAY sell a vehicle with such defects, but only subject to a written and co-signed notice of such defects and conditions of sale.

In this case, the cars defects do not in fact render it not roadworthy. The engine may not last long or whatever, but even then, there needs to be an ability to show how the seller has deliberately misrepresented the vehicle at time of sale in such a way that the goods supplied are effectively not of merchantable quality, allowing for the age, general condition and price of the goods as supplied.

Read the statutory instruments. It's all there if you take an open mind when you read them.

If the OP wanted a warranty he should have bought a car with a warranty, agreed in writing.

If the OP wanted to claim entitlement to the provision of goods of merchantable quality, he should have insisted that his purchase was not 'as is', or 'sold as seen'.

The fact of the matter is that you can argue all you want that it's wrong and I'm wrong and all the rest. The OP bought a car 'as is/sold as seen', without an explicit dealer warranty, and his grievance now is not addressed by the sales of goods and supply of services act.

There's also the simple question, why would the OP buy a car at the low end of the market, as seen, without warranty, dismiss the dealer telling him this and not pay attention to the consequences and then think he's been screwed by a cowboy?

All the signs were there that buying the car was a gamble and that he could win or lose. He lost. That's gambling for you.

Argue again, go on. Read the act first and tell me I'm wrong again, for the craic. Point the finger at the OP instead and tell him he did it all wrong. That's what's happened and getting your backs up for him won't help.

Sales of goods act also covers second hand goods which must be of merchantable quality. An engine in the condition the op described is not merchantable quality.
Also nct does not equal roadworthy.
It means it was roadworthy on the day the test was carried out. The brakes could pass the test one day and a month later could fail the same test

goochy · 30-07-2014 9:27pm

i know its too late now but you should never buy a car at a used car dealer without getting it checked out- decent dealers will insist you get car checked over if they are selling a trade in ' as is' .was the car much cheaper than market value price ? I bought a 2k saab with no warranty but got it checked over and car was quite cheap - I accepted you wouldn't get much warranty on 10 yr old saab anyway. I was made to sign that I had got car checked over.

if car was sold at market price and you were no told of any defects you should be covered under consumer law.

BreadnBuddha · 30-07-2014 9:28pm

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

Sales of goods act also covers second hand goods which must be of merchantable quality. An engine in the condition the op described is not merchantable quality.
Also nct does not equal roadworthy.
It means it was roadworthy on the day the test was carried out. The brakes could pass the test one day and a month later could fail the same test

I know. Read it again.

Regarding the NCT, I couldn't give a toss about the NCT. The OP's complaint is in relation to silicon and superglue or whatever being used on the engine. Unless it's dumping oil onto the road that has zero impact on roadworthiness. An NCT is about as useful as a copy of The Sun. Nice to look at, but **** all substance or value.

A motor trader selling a car to a member of the public is only required to honestly represent the car, to disclose information relating to the car which he know about and not to sell a vehicle that is unsafe for use by a member of the public in the condition in which it is sold, unless that is specifically agreed OR notified in writing before or as part of the contract of sale.

Merchantable quality is pretty wide open to interpretation. Is it a car? Yes. Does it drive? Yes. Is it unsafe and therefore unsuitable for supply to a customer for immediate use in the condition in which it is supplied? No. Does it need work? Of couse, it's an old car. Has the OP been told it's sold with no warranty? Yes. Was the price agreed? Yes.

Sounds okay to me.

Does the OP have NO comeback? Of course he has. If the seller sold him an intrinsically unsafe vehicle for his immediate use, he has comeback.

There's nothing in law that stops a seller from selling a roadworthy vehicle in need of work to a customer. He can't say it's perfect, needs nothing, it's immaculate, you won't need a warranty it's that good a car etc. But he didn't. He told him, it's as is, no warranty. There's no misrepresentation there.

moonship · 30-07-2014 9:30pm

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

Sales of goods act also covers second hand goods which must be of merchantable quality. An engine in the condition the op described is not merchantable quality.
Also nct does not equal roadworthy.
It means it was roadworthy on the day the test was carried out. The brakes could pass the test one day and a month later could fail the same test

Kids, geeks and other motor specialists:)

Nct equals roadworhiness. Passed test means car meets road safety and enviromental standards during its validity period. Obviously a few days after csr could fail the test but thats the law. It doesnt check general mechanical condition.
So OP bought roadworthy vehicle and this argument against the garage is busted.

if the car was sold without one wheel- then you could argue that wasnt of merchantable quality and wasnt fit fir the purpose!

Thats the reality

Jayop · 30-07-2014 9:36pm

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

I know. Read it again.

Regarding the NCT, I couldn't give a toss about the NCT. The OP's complaint is in relation to silicon and superglue or whatever being used on the engine. Unless it's dumping oil onto the road that has zero impact on roadworthiness. An NCT is about as useful as a copy of The Sun. Nice to look at, but **** all substance or value.

A motor trader selling a car to a member of the public is only required to honestly represent the car, to disclose information relating to the car which he know about and not to sell a vehicle that is unsafe for use by a member of the public in the condition in which it is sold, unless that is specifically agreed OR notified in writing before or as part of the contract of sale.

Merchantable quality is pretty wide open to interpretation. Is it a car? Yes. Does it drive? Yes. Is it unsafe and therefore unsuitable for supply to a customer for immediate use in the condition in which it is supplied? No. Does it need work? Of couse, it's an old car. Has the OP been told it's sold with no warranty? Yes. Was the price agreed? Yes.

Sounds okay to me.

Does the OP have NO comeback? Of course he has. If the seller sold him an intrinsically unsafe vehicle for his immediate use, he has comeback.

There's nothing in law that stops a seller from selling a roadworthy vehicle in need of work to a customer. He can't say it's perfect, needs nothing, it's immaculate, you won't need a warranty it's that good a car etc. But he didn't. He told him, it's as is, no warranty. There's no misrepresentation there.

TBF, superglue like. Surely that alone would indicate some sort of misinterpretation from the seller.

Anyway, I'm no expert, but I know I'd never by a car over a grand that only came with a tailgate warranty.

quadrifoglio verde · 30-07-2014 9:55pm

moonship wrote: »

Kids, geeks and other motor specialists:)

Nct equals roadworhiness. Passed test means car meets road safety and enviromental standards during its validity period. Obviously a few days after csr could fail the test but thats the law. It doesnt check general mechanical condition.
So OP bought roadworthy vehicle and this argument against the garage is busted.

if the car was sold without one wheel- then you could argue that wasnt of merchantable quality and wasnt fit fir the purpose!

Thats the reality

The nct doesn't give a ****e either whether you're engine is about to blow up, all it cares about is that the emissions are ok, that shocks and brakes work within the guidelines, that theres no rust etc. It doesn't care about your engine, your gearbox, your clutch. Manys a time it will miss bushes that are perished or callipers that are seizing. Not to mention the couple of quid in the brown envelope.

Having an NCT on a car does not mean it is of merchantable quality. He is selling cars as a business. If bought of a dealer as a private individual you've the same rights as if bought new, i.e. the car must be of merchantable quality, a car which has a fecked engine is not of merchantable quality.

Id be going down to him in the morning op, giving him the option to repair, replace or refund.
If he refuses to do any, leave contact details and bring him to the scc for costs associated with the repair. All it'll cost you is an extra 25....might get him moving.

BreadnBuddha · 30-07-2014 10:03pm

.... :rolleyes:

166man, is that you?

quadrifoglio verde · 30-07-2014 10:05pm

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

.... :rolleyes:

166man, is that you?

Lol....and nope:P

padma · 30-07-2014 10:27pm

Ok..had a problem before with a dealer selling me a hidden fault in the car...

Went down to him first thing of a monday morning...told him my ould man looked at the car and f'd me out of it for buying it as it had x,y and z wrong with it..told him the father was gonna come down and stick a hatchet in him for messing me about. Told the salesman that I had to restrain him and calm him down and that i'll deal with the garage.

Salesman starting to squirm..who needs that sh.. of a monday morning right. Agreed to have his mechanic look at it..mech said it had x y and z wrong with it.. took it off me and gave me a courtesy car and told me to come back next week.

Came back the following week..they didnt do anything to it..bossman told them it was sold as seen and tough ti t.

I handed them the keys walked away..told them that they sold the car as mint and it obviously wasnt. I want my money back..ring me when they have my money... 15 minutes later got a call to come back and theyll fix the car. Gave me a courtesy car...they fixed x y and z..but on z they used a second hand part that waz banjaxed..

I reared up on them..handed them back the keys and told them this time I want my money back..had a few days off work and a friend and I hung around in the garage across the road all day. Everytime a customer went in..we walked over to the salesman asking him when will I get my money.

This we did for two days and on the second day I told them that they have my car keys and they have my money and I will ring the guards and if the guards are no help it will be a long time before i will leave.

Bossman arrived 5 mins later with my money.

The idea is..they have the keys to your car..they alao have your money..they know your not going to let it rest and now they know youre serious..theyve two choices drag it on until court and solicitors or give you your money back..best choice for them is money back.

Bring a big friend..speak slowly..clearly..and let them know it can be very difficult to sell a car with you around..

djimi · 30-07-2014 10:31pm

moonship wrote: »

Kids, geeks and other motor specialists:)

Nct equals roadworhiness. Passed test means car meets road safety and enviromental standards during its validity period. Obviously a few days after csr could fail the test but thats the law. It doesnt check general mechanical condition.
So OP bought roadworthy vehicle and this argument against the garage is busted.

if the car was sold without one wheel- then you could argue that wasnt of merchantable quality and wasnt fit fir the purpose!

Thats the reality

The NCT does not equal roadworthy. A valid NCT means that the car was roadworthy for a period of about a half an hour on a given day in the past 1-2 years; nothing more.

A car could have a valid NCT and also have a dangerous defect; are you seriously trying to suggest that a dealer would get away with selling such a car on the basis that the piece of paper in the window was up to date?

Its beliefs/advice like this is the reason why people get stung when buying second hand cars in Ireland; its a very dangerous thing to believe that a valid NCT means that you are buying a safe and roadworthy car but unfortunately too many people make that mistake.

mullingar · 30-07-2014 11:07pm

This old chestnut.

First of all, under the SOGA all that it refers to for protection on second hand goods is that it must be of reasonable quality and you have the right for a refund/exchange/repair. It's up to the courts to decide exactly how long the protection lasts for as it will vary from case to case.

For all second hand goods, including cars, it's up to the shop/dealer to describe all faults/condition of the second hand goods.

While there may be a small legal chance of the OP claiming against the dealer under the SOGA that they weren't given a list of all faults, it could be argued that it was verbally given, but common sense should prevail that any car sold with "sold as seen" should always set alarm bells and it will be cheap for a reason.. If any dealer won't stand over a sale with no warranty you have to expect a turd.

If your not in the know of cars, always get an independent mechanic to give it the once over or walk.....

Jayop · 30-07-2014 11:11pm

I've been chuckling all afternoon at the thought of using superglue. It's like yer man from that kids movie Matilda. Sawdust in the transmission and use a drill to wind back the clock.

Henry Ford III · 30-07-2014 11:55pm

Once again there is no legal minimum legal warranty on a used car.

It's actually surprising to read that folk still believe this to be the case, because it isn't.

quadrifoglio verde · 31-07-2014 12:40am

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Once again there is no legal minimum legal warranty on a used car.

It's actually surprising to read that folk still believe this to be the case, because it isn't.

There's no minimum warranty but id argue that a car needing that much work done to it isn't of merchantable quality.

The fact that there's no defined warranty on a second hand car It does not absolve the dealer of selling a car which isn't of merchantable quality, which is required by soga.

bazz26 · 31-07-2014 12:54am

This very same topic pops up all too frequently.

Why oh why do some people buy cars in this fashion and then to add insult to injury, don't get them checked out by a mechanic until it's too late. People can be so obsessed with seeking a bargain that all common sense and cop on goes out the window. A car being sold by a dealer as sold as seen means that it needs work done on it. Jumping in and buying it without knowing what needs doing is just madness. I really think some people need protection from themselves.

padma · 31-07-2014 1:38am

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/consumer_affairs/motoring/advice_on_buying_a_used_car_in_ireland.html

You do have rights..exercise them...that car you bought is not roadworthy... its up to the dealer to set it right.

BMJD · 31-07-2014 10:03am

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Once again there is no legal minimum legal warranty on a used car.

It's actually surprising to read that folk still believe this to be the case, because it isn't.

a warranty is in addition to consumer rights, it isn't the be all and end all of buying a car

Cleveland Hot Pocket · 31-07-2014 2:25pm

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

.... :rolleyes:

166man, is that you?

You of all people should know you can't reference banned posters

BreadnBuddha · 31-07-2014 4:11pm

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

You of all people should know you can't reference banned posters

Didn't even realise he was, or that you can't.

Cleveland Hot Pocket · 31-07-2014 4:18pm

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

Didn't even realise he was, or that you can't.

Yeah, suppose we can't all live in the motoring forum like I seem to these days :P

Cowboy Car Salesmen

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