The future of Free Travel Passes being flagged again

Hilly Bill · 08-03-2012 1:39am

Have we gone a nation of begrudgers?

dowlingm · 08-03-2012 2:48am

we were always a nation of begrudgers. If I ever forget I just read some John B Keane to remind me.

I think what we're seeing now is a realisation that social partnership consisted in some parts of an assumption that social spending could track peak government income with no safeguards for the future. Back in the early 00s if the government ever faltered in its will to spend IBEC, ICTU and the opposition parties stood ready to stiffen their resolve to spend more.

These days, it's like that Martyn Turner cartoon with the placards saying "cut somewhere else", "tax someone else".

The thing that makes the free travel scheme tricky is that it is a de facto cash transfer to DB, BE, IE. If withdrawn, some costs will fall as service reduces to paying customers but in respect of drivers and equipment there will be significant overcapacity. Replacing it with a block grant would almost certainly have State Aid problems. If tweaked by reducing the categories eligible the opposition and the backbench of government will plead the case of their clientele.

AlekSmart · 08-03-2012 11:46am

dowlingm wrote: »

we were always a nation of begrudgers. If I ever forget I just read some John B Keane to remind me.

I think what we're seeing now is a realisation that social partnership consisted in some parts of an assumption that social spending could track peak government income with no safeguards for the future. Back in the early 00s if the government ever faltered in its will to spend IBEC, ICTU and the opposition parties stood ready to stiffen their resolve to spend more.

These days, it's like that Martyn Turner cartoon with the placards saying "cut somewhere else", "tax someone else".

The thing that makes the free travel scheme tricky is that it is a de facto cash transfer to DB, BE, IE. If withdrawn, some costs will fall as service reduces to paying customers but in respect of drivers and equipment there will be significant overcapacity. Replacing it with a block grant would almost certainly have State Aid problems. If tweaked by reducing the categories eligible the opposition and the backbench of government will plead the case of their clientele.

Direct Hit Dowlingm !

Despite grumblings that my views may be anti OAP (A classification I am RAPIDLY approaching :eek:),what I advocate is the placing of the current Free-Travel non-system onto a sound sustainable footing.

If this entails the Irish Government having to breach some EU State Aid guidelines,then so be it.

My contention is that the original 1960's ethos of the OAP Free Travel Scheme was specifically to allow Ireland and it's citizens to modify their lifestyles to suit the then EEC's demands.

The flight from the land,as it was called in the immediate aftermath of our joining the EEC would have otherwise resulted in our older people becoming totally isolated in a country which,at that time,had NO motorway network,a far from complete Electricity grid and 3 year waiting lists for a domestic telephone line.

I would strongly argue with any stroppy Brussels Bureaucrat,that Ireland's Free Travel Scheme was,dei-facto an EEC-EU requirement,which,for a significant number of our populace is still required and thus should be funded to allow it's continuance.

However in order to put this view forward,the Authorities need to at the very least display that they have a reasonable degree of control over the systems administration,which currently they cannot do.

foggy_lad · 08-03-2012 12:52pm

All the Authorities have to do is get tough on all users and change the rules to make it obligatory for pass holders to possess and produce a passport or Gardai age card each and every time they use their pass. Old and worn passes must be confiscated and destroyed and replaced quickly but only directly to the recipient at their local social welfare office on production of the passport and birth certificate.

munchkin_utd · 08-03-2012 12:58pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

All the Authorities have to do is get tough on all users and change the rules to make it obligatory for pass holders to possess and produce a passport or Gardai age card each and every time they use their pass. Old and worn passes must be confiscated and destroyed and replaced quickly but only directly to the recipient at their local social welfare office on production of the passport and birth certificate.

but the other question is,
how can unlimited free travel for a year cost only 110Euro per head?

IF transport is that cheap to provide, then why cant the government go and provide the same great deal for working people, abeit they just pay the 110 rather than get it for free.

9Euro a month for your commute, and all the travel you can fit in at the weekend, nationwide.

All those households struggling to keep a second car on the road simply for the commute would be relieved greatly by such a deal.

foggy_lad · 08-03-2012 1:05pm

munchkin_utd wrote: »

but the other question is,
how can unlimited free travel for a year cost only 110Euro per head?

IF transport is that cheap to provide, then why cant the government go and provide the same great deal for working people, abeit they just pay the 110 rather than get it for free.

9Euro a month for your commute, and all the travel you can fit in at the weekend, nationwide.

All those households struggling to keep a second car on the road simply for the commute would be relieved greatly by such a deal.

The trains and buses are on the roads anyway with staff employed so allowing pass holders to travel costs very little.

The added cost of having to pay redundancy to thousands of staff as services are curtailed and cancelled as well as the increased social welfare bill when all the redundant staff hit the Dole office, not to mention the loss of revenue when some services are reduced or cancelled, all these costs must be taken into the equation!

TheChrisD · 08-03-2012 10:20pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

All the Authorities have to do is get tough on all users and change the rules to make it obligatory for pass holders to possess and produce a passport or Gardai age card each and every time they use their pass.

I doubt anyone would want to carry around their passport just to use normal public transport. In all seriousness though, what's wrong with the ID card you have to get to use the FTP on Dublin Bus? They could just make that requirement apply to everyone, there problem sorted.

foggy_lad wrote: »

Old and worn passes must be confiscated and destroyed and replaced quickly but only directly to the recipient at their local social welfare office on production of the passport and birth certificate.

This though brings up the issue of how old/worn the pass has to be before it must be replaced. I've had mine four years now, the plastic sleeve is falling completely apart, but the actual paper pass itself is completely fine. Also don't see why a replacement couldn't just be sent back to the recipient in the post, assuming the ID card is still usable.

dowlingm · 08-03-2012 10:29pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

Old and worn passes must be confiscated and destroyed and replaced quickly but only directly to the recipient at their local social welfare office on production of the passport and birth certificate.

Foggy - if you were an SW passholder who had his pass confiscated by a CIE employee for condition when you were hours from your house, never mind the Social...

WE WOULD NEVER HEAR THE END OF IT.

foggy_lad · 08-03-2012 11:32pm

TheChrisD wrote: »

I doubt anyone would want to carry around their passport just to use normal public transport. In all seriousness though, what's wrong with the ID card you have to get to use the FTP on Dublin Bus? They could just make that requirement apply to everyone, there problem sorted.

This though brings up the issue of how old/worn the pass has to be before it must be replaced. I've had mine four years now, the plastic sleeve is falling completely apart, but the actual paper pass itself is completely fine. Also don't see why a replacement couldn't just be sent back to the recipient in the post, assuming the ID card is still usable.

If you have a pass and want another one for your mate you just report yours as being lost and get a replacement sent out, then you give it to your mate with a copy of your birth certificate and a utility bill and they can go off into Dublin Bus and get a photopass with your name and their photo on it! the system is not designed to stamp out fraud as it does not require photo id!

If the pass is not readable and name and other details are not legible it is not valid any more.

Requiring it be collected in person at your local social welfare office with photo id ensures it is not being used by the son/daughter/niece/nephew etc of the named user who might be deceased.

dowlingm wrote: »

Foggy - if you were an SW passholder who had his pass confiscated by a CIE employee for condition when you were hours from your house, never mind the Social...

WE WOULD NEVER HEAR THE END OF IT.

Hopefully I would never complain about something that was my own fault:D

AlekSmart · 19-04-2012 9:10pm

Some interesting stats on the Free Travel Scheme appear at the tail-end of the DSP's reprise of statistics for 2010.

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Policy/ResearchSurveysAndStatistics/Documents/2010stats.pdf

At long-last it's now possible to lay that old ghost about the Free Travel Scheme being the Old Age Pension Pass.....

Total number of persons in respect of whom Free Travel Passes have been issued....699,164

Total number of Contributory,Non Contributory and Transition Pension holders covered by the scheme...249,653

Equally interesting is the classification of "Others" under which 180,462 lucky individuals travel free gratis within the State.

Of course it could also be a case of Lies,Damn Lies,and then....statistics...;)

foggy_lad · 19-04-2012 9:32pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

Some interesting stats on the Free Travel Scheme appear at the tail-end of the DSP's reprise of statistics for 2010.

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Policy/ResearchSurveysAndStatistics/Documents/2010stats.pdf

At long-last it's now possible to lay that old ghost about the Free Travel Scheme being the Old Age Pension Pass.....

Total number of persons in respect of whom Free Travel Passes have been issued....699,164

Total number of Contributory,Non Contributory and Transition Pension holders covered by the scheme...249,653

Equally interesting is the classification of "Others" under which 180,462 lucky individuals travel free gratis within the State.

Of course it could also be a case of Lies,Damn Lies,and then....statistics...;)

The nunmber of others is possibly bloated by the numbers of parents of "disabled" children with adhd etc who are entitled to free travel because their children are entitled to it and are too young to travel alone? I am only guessing but maybe Others is their way of counting the extra person allowed travel with those issued with Companion passes?

It is highly unusual that by far the highest number of users is just classified as "others"!

AlekSmart · 20-04-2012 5:58am

foggy_lad wrote: »

It is highly unusual that by far the highest number of users is just classified as "others"!

Probably the best definition of the entire scheme I've yet encountered....."Highly Unusual".

+100% Foggy_Lad

foggy_lad · 20-04-2012 10:53am

AlekSmart wrote: »

Probably the best definition of the entire scheme I've yet encountered....."Highly Unusual".

+100% Foggy_Lad

I have given some very easy ways in which the whole fraudulant element can be eliminated once and forever but for some reason people would rather "bitch and moan" about perceived levels of fraud than fight to do anything to stamp it out.

A few simple changes like firstly make it a rule and the most important rule that anyone presenting a travel pass also present at the same time a Passport or Gardai Age Card as proof that they are the person entitled to travel on the pass. OAP's could be issued the age card free of charge to keep the age action people happy.

I have had major issues with Irish Rail staff asking and insisting on Photo id from people with free travel passes as it is not a requirement unless the pass holder is resident in certain city locations, so they are not entitled to look for photo id but if it was made a rule and requirement then I would be more than happy to see passes not honoured or confiscated and people not allowed travel for not adhering to the rules.

The companion pass should be abolished! also remove the Spousal entitlement except in the case of OAP's.

Next rule is that the pass must be legible and any which are not should be confiscated and destroyed and replacements issued to the persons entitled on production of their photo id in their local social welfare office or Post office, I would insist on all passes being delivered or handed out to people in this manner to avoid passes being stolen or interfered with in the post.

Next, those found using a pass belonging to someone else(relative, neighbour, dead uncle etc) should be jailed and prohibited from claiming any social payment for a period of at least 5 years.

Change the "highly unusual" aspect to highly policed and controlled and it won't require millions to implement!

dublinbusdude · 20-04-2012 2:42pm

I have a disability and have Free Travel, but I don't have "The Companion Pass" no more as on current pass I have dont have it since 2006....I used to have a "The Companion Pass" from 2003 to 2006, then I got a new one in 2006 which didnt have "The Companion Pass" .... I wish they could change it to card to an all in one card e.g. Free Travel, Medcial Card, Social Welfare payment (if you are on one if its not going into a Bank Account) and photo ID card with your details on it like PPS Number, Medcial Card number, your GP and hospital details (if any)...

RobbingBandit · 23-04-2012 11:21am

I have a pass which is damaged myself, I always keep documentation explaining the reasons why I qualify for it on my person and have my ppsn card for proof of ID,Dublin Bus should but don't key in a persons ppsn,1 out of every 10 times Irish Rail do key in my number when I get a ticket.

There should be a leap card system in place by now but we all know they have screwed up that system for normal usage already and it would be just as susceptible to fraud as the paper travel cards are.

AlekSmart · 24-04-2012 12:20am

RobbingBandit wrote: »

I have a pass which is damaged myself, I always keep documentation explaining the reasons why I qualify for it on my person and have my ppsn card for proof of ID,Dublin Bus should but don't key in a persons ppsn,1 out of every 10 times Irish Rail do key in my number when I get a ticket.

Why don't you just get your damaged pass replaced RB ?

If the damage renders the Freee Pass illegible,then it is invalid and may well be taken up by some zealous Public Transport Employee (Cough !! .....Foggy_Lad to the nearest red telephone

).

If you call to your local DSP office they'll give you a Temporary Free Travel Document whilst your new Corn-Flakes Box is printed.

Mind you,the new DSP chipped card is imminent,although currently the Government's main focus is on agreeing a format for the issuing of the new Credit-Card Driving licence.

The RSA,as the responsible agency,appear to have decided that for a first-issue of a new format card Licence,the holder will be required to physically present themselves at a specific location with some form of proof of identity.

The form of proof is sure to ignite a few Liberal bangers,as indications are that a Fingerprint or Iris recognition based format is under active consideration...:eek:

The "Prime-Time Investigates" exposé on the Driving Licence/Free Travel Pass/PPSN Card forgery industry opened a truly rancid can of worms,hence the level of interest now being displayed in new smart-technology based solutions rather than the oul ESB bill....;)

foggy_lad · 24-04-2012 12:28am

The liberals will accept nothing less than a birth cert being accepted as proof of identity for your new driving licence!

Victor · 24-04-2012 1:40am

foggy_lad wrote: »

I have had major issues with Irish Rail staff asking and insisting on Photo id

Anyone can ask anything, demanding is another matter.

The companion pass should be abolished!

Some people are in genuine need of a companion for longer trips.

AlekSmart wrote: »

If you call to your local DSP office they'll give you a Temporary Free Travel Document whilst your new Corn-Flakes Box is printed.

You might explain "Corn-Flakes Box" to the non-regulars.

Cookie_Monster · 24-04-2012 3:30am

Victor wrote: »

You might explain "Corn-Flakes Box" to the non-regulars.

it's a reference to the top class quality materials they use to make the card

foggy_lad · 24-04-2012 5:27am

Victor wrote: »

Anyone can ask anything, demanding is another matter.

I witnessed asking first then demanding and insisting that no ticket would be issued without photo identification to verify the person was entitled to the travel pass, also a railway revenue protection agent also got involved and iirc exceeded his authority by also insisting that no ticket would be issued but also the pass would be confiscated if no photo I'd was provided. Real bullying tactics against a guy with downs syndrome or some similar disability.

Some people are in genuine need of a companion for longer trips.
You might explain "Corn-Flakes Box" to the non-regulars.

couldn't a career or home help or other such person be arranged for those who require a companion and they could be given a pass allowing travel when accompanying another pass holder?

And the cornflakes box is the preferred material for printing the pass onto for those selling copies in their local pub at €50 a pop or a bit more if you want the photopass card with it:D

Condatis · 24-04-2012 7:16am

I have had a Free Travel Pass since 2010 when I reached 66. For use on Dublin Bus there is a requirement for a photo ID which is obtained at Dublin Bus in O'Connell Street. I have never been asked to produce it despite using a bus at least ten times a week.

A few weeks ago a fellow passenger told me that he got a Pass "from a mate". The "mate" reports his own Pass lost, gets a replacement, then gives – or sells? – his Pass to somebody else.

munchkin_utd · 24-04-2012 8:37am

Condatis wrote: »

<snip>

A few weeks ago a fellow passenger told me that he got a Pass "from a mate". The "mate" reports his own Pass lost, gets a replacement, then gives – or sells? – his Pass to somebody else.

i suppose the positive about the prospect of a smartcard travel pass - with or without photo - is that once "lost" the old card could be blacklisted and be flaged as no longer valid by the card scanners.

Well....
you'd presume a basic feature like that is built into the system! I'm sure we'll find out in time if it is.

schemingbohemia · 24-04-2012 11:33am

AlekSmart wrote: »

Some interesting stats on the Free Travel Scheme appear at the tail-end of the DSP's reprise of statistics for 2010.

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Policy/ResearchSurveysAndStatistics/Documents/2010stats.pdf

At long-last it's now possible to lay that old ghost about the Free Travel Scheme being the Old Age Pension Pass.....

Total number of persons in respect of whom Free Travel Passes have been issued....699,164

Total number of Contributory,Non Contributory and Transition Pension holders covered by the scheme...249,653

Equally interesting is the classification of "Others" under which 180,462 lucky individuals travel free gratis within the State.

Of course it could also be a case of Lies,Damn Lies,and then....statistics...;)

I think I'm going blind, where are those figures in the document you linked to? Can't seem to find them. All I can find are total expenditure on Free Travel Scheme by year which shows a miserable increase in expenditure at the same time as there's been a huge increase in those availing of the scheme.

munchkin_utd · 24-04-2012 11:52am

schemingbohemia wrote: »

I think I'm going blind, where are those figures in the document you linked to? Can't seem to find them. All I can find are total expenditure on Free Travel Scheme by year which shows a miserable increase in expenditure at the same time as there's been a huge increase in those availing of the scheme.

page 100, Table J4 has the info very detailed and categorised

murphaph · 24-04-2012 4:03pm

There's no free travel pass for anyone in any German city that I know of and absolutely no such thing as a national travel pass.

OAP's in Berlin can avail of a discounted (off peak) trvelcard, as can disabled and unemployed/students.

In Germany there is even a scale for your disability. The more disabled the doc says you are, the cheaper your ticket. If you are totally disabled, you will get a partner ticket at a reduced rate too, but nothing for free for anyone!

Victor · 25-04-2012 1:34pm

The flip side is in eastern European countries, certainly Russia, there is an extensive free travel entitlement, which is carried exclusively by the transport companies.

parsi · 26-04-2012 5:51pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

The companion pass should be abolished! also remove the Spousal entitlement except in the case of OAP's.

If the pass has been issued to a person who has furnished the correct documents then I see no reason why the companion pass or spousal benefit be abolished.

After all what about people being cared for by a spouse or companion ? Are their carers supposed to pay for travel ? Is free travel only for singletons who are able enough to travel on their own ? What about a mother who has to regularly travel with her disabled son in order to receive medical care at a remote facility requiring multiple modes of public transport - is she to be discriminated against ?

If we go down the road of not providing companion passes to legitimate cases then maybe the singletons can just be provided with warrants for relevant journeys ?

What is needed is a root and branch re-examination of the system and not just tinkering around the edges discommoding the deserving.

foggy_lad · 26-04-2012 5:59pm

parsi wrote: »

If the pass has been issued to a person who has furnished the correct documents then I see no reason why the companion pass or spousal benefit be abolished.

After all what about people being cared for by a spouse or companion ? Are their carers supposed to pay for travel ? Is free travel only for singletons who are able enough to travel on their own ? What about a mother who has to regularly travel with her disabled son in order to receive medical care at a remote facility requiring multiple modes of public transport - is she to be discriminated against ?

If we go down the road of not providing companion passes to legitimate cases then maybe the singletons can just be provided with warrants for relevant journeys ?

What is needed is a root and branch re-examination of the system and not just tinkering around the edges discommoding the deserving.

They can eliminate most fraudulant use immediately by changing the rules to require a passport or Garda age card be presented for travel with the pass and also that it be present during any journey undertaken.

This will remove all the "Copies" in circulation where a legitimate holder has reported their pass missing and them when they get a replacement they give or sell it to someone else who only needs a household bill and birth cert of the legitimate holder to have their picture put onto a photopass.

The future of Free Travel Passes being flagged again

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