The Origin of Specious Nonsense. Twelve years on. Still going. Answer soon.

Hotblack Desiato · 27-03-2015 11:24pm

PopePalpatine wrote: »

if pi had a finite amount of digits, or repeated a finite set of digits, then that would strongly suggest this universe is a simulation.

Nope, it's an irrational number so cannot be represented as a ratio of integers, and therefore can't be represented as a repeating or finite decimal number either.

It's also a transcendental number but that's getting very close to the edge of my mathematical understanding

robindch · 29-05-2015 1:49pm

A creationist finds a 60 million year old fossil by mistake.

Red faces all 'round.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2015/05/28/whoops-a-creationist-museum-supporter-stumbled-upon-a-major-fossil-find/?tid=sm_fb

Vivisectus · 29-05-2015 2:42pm

Bless his little creationist heart for properly letting people know about them and spotting them though

fair play to that guy. I hope they name the new fish species after him.

Hotblack Desiato · 29-05-2015 9:12pm

Well surely a god who can create the world 'n' all can also create a fossil that gives every appearance of being sixty million years old.

That's me convinced... :pac:

PopePalpatine · 24-01-2016 6:30pm

The Republicans are trying to sneak creationism in by the back door again, under the guise of "academic freedom".

robindch · 05-09-2016 11:47am

A few months late, but a group comprising of just over one hundred Presbyterian churches have voted to accept evolution:

http://www.theclergyletterproject.org/pdf/cascades2016.pdf

Pherekydes · 05-09-2016 1:04pm

robindch wrote: »

A few months late, but a group comprising of just over one hundred Presbyterian churches have voted to accept evolution:

http://www.theclergyletterproject.org/pdf/cascades2016.pdf

A few centuries late, no?

sbsquarepants · 05-09-2016 1:10pm

Say what you want about those Presbyterians but they're on the cutting edge:D

robindch · 05-09-2016 2:50pm

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Say what you want about those Presbyterians but they're on the cutting edge

Makes a pleasant change to see the religious on the cutting edge of science, instead of scientists being on the cutting edge, say, of the inquisition.

oldrnwisr · 09-01-2017 2:10pm

Response to post in Christmas thread per A&A Feedback thread:

Absolam wrote: »

Well... the assertion wasn't that we could have a celebration at the end of December in the absence of Christianity. That we could needs no evidence, anything is possible after all. The assertion that without Christianity, we would have a holiday at this time anyway isn't credible because as Peregrinus pointed out, there's no reason to believe any of the other solstice festivals would have survived in the absence of Christianity.

Except that there is. We already have three examples from my previous post of winter solstice festivals which have survived even in the absence of Christianity (Soyaluna, Dongzhi and Yalda). In each of these cases, there is no Christian influence on the celebration of the holiday. Also in each of these cases, we have a different religious framework surrounding the festival. Yalda is a Zoroastrian festival more analogous to the Celtic festival of Halloween, a belief that the solstice was a liminal time when the boundaries between worlds were weak. Soyaluna is part of the Hopi cycle of life and is tied to their nature based mythology. Dongzhi is an astronomical festival and largely devoid of a religious influence.

So what we do have is evidence of modern extant solstice festivals being celebrated in the absence of Christianity. What we don't have are any examples of pagan festivals which have died out, why they died out and why their death is comparable to the Celtic solstice festival. We know that the solstice festival was celebrated in pre-Christian Ireland so we need persuasive arguments as to why such a festival would just stop being celebrated if left to its own devices.

Absolam wrote: »

Such as does remain of them remains because of the way Christianity incorporated and spread those traditions as it's own, whether it was yule logs, gift giving, or decorated trees.

Well, not entirely. Firstly, gift giving isn't necessarily something which Christianity co-opted. While gift giving was part of Saturnalia which Christmas largely replaced, gift giving is also specifically mentioned in the Biblical narrative in Matthew 2:11.
Secondly, most pre-Christian Christmas traditions such as Yule logs, holly and ivy or other syncretised traditions such as the Easter bunny rarely get incorporated into the Christmas narrative, they just get glossed over.

Absolam wrote: »

The very fact that we observe anything like a solstice festival so long past the need to be aware of it is attributable to Christianity; there's nothing to show that any other religious observance would have survived so universally, and the obvious fact is they didn't.

Except that all of the major pre-Christian Celtic festivals survived into the 20th century. In fact, the original Celtic feast of Samhain survives intact to the present day as Halloween. I have explained this in more detail on the original thread.

Absolam wrote: »

But you're not providing anything to support your 'yes', are you? That Christianity was a successfully syncretic religion doesn't mean any other would have been.

Except that exclusivist or non-syncretic religions don't actually last very long. There are no modern examples of exclusivist religions which aren't also recent. The religions of the cultures in the surrounding regions were syncretic. Roman mythology, Judaism and even some sects of Islam (e.g. Sufism) are all syncretic. Its unlikely that any invading religion which isn't syncretic would be successful in converting a significant number of adherents as explained in my previous post.

Absolam · 10-01-2017 6:19am

Thanks oldrnwisr, I appreciate the effort. I had toyed with the idea of dragging posts from other threads into this one to continue discussions, but since it would just turn this one into a mish mash of part discussions of subjects unrelated to the thread, I've decided against it. Perhaps I'll have the opportunity to reply to your thoughts at a later date.

Absolam · 08-02-2017 3:39am

Does anyone think that the fact that 7,750 applications to the Catholic schools who responded to the survey did not result in an enrolment is an interesting statistic?

I'd say it indicates that a lot of parents are shopping around Catholic schools for places for their children, and given that only 96 places were refused on the basis that applicants weren't Catholic, it seems extraordinarily unlikely that this is the main reason for that level of multiple applications. The CPSMA appears to think this is due to insufficient school places overall, or at least in Catholic schools. Perhaps a secular State that provides for more school places would be best for religious and atheist citizens in this instance?

Absolam · 11-02-2017 5:31am

By the sounds of it then, Michael would be well advised (though I think he already does) to have a good read of A&A; the styles, at least, of argumentation you are ascribing to his opponent are well in evidence on many of the threads.

On the other hand I think Michael is well experienced in putting across his viewpoint in a calm and sensible fashion. I think he'd be better served staying true to his own points and format than changing to counter someone else.

robindch · 11-02-2017 11:51am

^^^ Message moved from Michael Nugent vs WC thread.

J C · 12-02-2017 2:14pm

robindch wrote: »

A creationist finds a 60 million year old fossil by mistake.

Red faces all 'round.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2015/05/28/whoops-a-creationist-museum-supporter-stumbled-upon-a-major-fossil-find/?tid=sm_fb

... a 60 million (evolutionist) year old fossil fish ... that ... eh ... em ... looks remarkably like the fish that my wife cooked for dinner today !!!:)

... I think it's actually a Redear Sunfish ... that got caught up in the Flood of Noah!!!:)

Were the red faces in empathy with the red ears of the sunfish??:pac::):eek:

... another 'fishy story' ... like the (more 'primitive' looking) Coelacanth ... that was supposed to have gone extinct over 65 million years ago ... but turned up alive and well in 1938!!!

The sunfish fossil is only a 'baby' in terms of the Evolutionist timeline ... the Coelacanth is supposedly around for over 360 million years ... but hasn't changed a bit ... while we supposedly 'evolved' from something that looked like a rat in 200 million (evolutionist) years!!!

Quote:-
"Coelacanths (seel-a-canths) were once known only from fossils and were thought to have gone extinct approximately 65 million years ago (mya), during the great extinction in which the dinosaurs disappeared. The most recent fossil record dates from about 80 mya but the earliest records date back as far as approximately 360 mya."

BTW, 'the great extinction' referred to above ... was the Flood.:)

http://vertebrates.si.edu/fishes/coelacanth/coelacanth_wider.html

Pherekydes · 12-02-2017 2:40pm

J C wrote: »

The sunfish fossil is only a 'baby' in terms of the Evolutionist timeline ... the Coelacanth is supposedly around for over 360 million years ... but hasn't changed a bit ... while we were supposedly evolving from something that looked like a rat!!!

Can't you just take a basic class on evolution instead of embarrassing yourself by posting idiotic drivel like the above?

J C · 12-02-2017 2:43pm

Pherekydes wrote: »

Can't you just take a basic class on evolution instead of embarrassing yourself by posting idiotic drivel like the above?

I could give the classes on 'evolution' ... as I'm an Evolutionary Biologist ... amongst other things !!!:):D

PopePalpatine · 12-02-2017 2:49pm

If you were an evolutionary biologist, you'd actually understand how evolution works instead of inanely ****posting.

J C · 12-02-2017 2:55pm

PopePalpatine wrote: »

If you were an evolutionary biologist, you'd actually understand how evolution works instead of inanely ****posting.

I know exactly how 'Evolution' works ... and it is unable to turn ponkind into mankind ... or rats into radiologists ... or frogs into princes ... that only happens in fairytales !!:)

Pherekydes · 12-02-2017 3:00pm

J C wrote: »

I could give the classes on 'evolution' ... as I'm an Evolutionary Biologist

Pre-schoolers would learn nothing...

J C · 12-02-2017 4:03pm

Pherekydes wrote: »

Pre-schoolers would learn nothing...

... some of the post-schoolers don't seem to want to learn anything either !!:)

Such is life.

PopePalpatine · 12-02-2017 4:58pm

Oh the irony.

J C · 12-02-2017 5:23pm

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Oh the irony.

Can you not see that the fossil record is a record of death (and instantaneous catastrophically caused death at that). It isn't a record of the suppposed 'development' of life on Earth.
The so called Geological Column is largely a record of the order of death of different organisms (in diffferent ecological niches) during Noah's Flood.

PopePalpatine · 12-02-2017 5:35pm

It must be so convenient that God killed off primitive chordates before the primitive amphibians, the primitive amphibians before the primitive reptiles, the primitive reptiles before the primitive dinosaurs, the primitive dinosaurs before the primitive birds, the primitive birds before the primitive primates etc. :rolleyes:

magicbastarder · 12-02-2017 5:38pm

J C wrote: »

Can you not see that the fossil record is a record of death

yes, its major flaw is that it does not contain records of immortal lifeforms.

J C · 12-02-2017 5:50pm

PopePalpatine wrote: »

It must be so convenient that God killed off primitive chordates before the primitive amphibians, the primitive amphibians before the primitive reptiles, the primitive reptiles before the primitive dinosaurs, the primitive dinosaurs before the primitive birds, the primitive birds before the primitive primates etc. :rolleyes:

... Plenty of 'primitive' examples of all life-forms survived the Flood ... and many members of current living species were fossilised in the Flood ... the so-called 'living fossils'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_fossil

looksee · 12-02-2017 8:11pm

Just on the subject of the flood for a minute JC, the entire earth flooded, right? and then the water receded? Where did all the extra water come from and where did it go?

magicbastarder · 12-02-2017 8:24pm

i think the 'Answer soon' in the thread title may be a bit premature.

Bristolscale7 · 12-02-2017 8:27pm

looksee wrote: »

Just on the subject of the flood for a minute JC, the entire earth flooded, right? and then the water receded? Where did all the extra water come from and where did it go?

Hotblack Desiato · 12-02-2017 9:04pm

It was teleported to Mars. Duh.

J C · 12-02-2017 9:24pm

looksee wrote: »

Just on the subject of the flood for a minute JC, the entire earth flooded, right? and then the water receded? Where did all the extra water come from and where did it go?

Answered numerous times ... the water flooded the land when the 'fountains of the great deep', i.e. huge volumes of sub-terranean waters, burst forth ... and it ran back off the land as it rose and the ocean basins fell ... to form the oceans and the dry lands of today's World respectively.
The remnant of this sub-terranean water was reported on in 2014 deep within the Earth at about 700 km from the surface ... it has a volume of water three times the volume of all the oceans ... and you can read about it here:-
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn25723-massive-ocean-discovered-towards-earths-core/

http://www.iflscience.com/environment/huge-underground-ocean-discovered-towards-earths-core/

jackboy · 12-02-2017 9:33pm

J C wrote: »

I know exactly how 'Evolution' works ... and it is unable to turn ponkind into mankind ... or rats into radiologists ... or frogs into princes ... that only happens in fairytales !!:)

Yeah, fairytales like virgin births and rising from the dead.

J C · 12-02-2017 9:34pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It was teleported to Mars. Duh.

Amazingly, conventional science believes that there was a Flood on Mars ... where tiny amounts of water currently exist ... and no Flood on Earth, where there is sufficient water in the Oceans of the World to cover the entire Earth to an average 2.6 Km if the surface was a smooth sphere.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/sphere-depth-of-the-ocean

http://science.time.com/2013/03/11/the-great-and-recent-martian-flood/

J C · 12-02-2017 9:46pm

jackboy wrote: »

Yeah, fairytales like virgin births and rising from the dead.

You might say so ... but I believe that God did that.

Unlike Spontaneous Evolutionists, I'm not claiming these miracles ... or any other miracles (like living organisms) ... were produced by spontaneous processes.:)

Hotblack Desiato · 12-02-2017 9:48pm

That's the easy answer to any hard question.

J C · 12-02-2017 10:02pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

That's the easy answer to any hard question.

It's the only plausible answer to the virgin birth, the resurrection of Jesus ... and the origins of life.

Other questions, like where all the Flood-water went, are answerable from repeatably observable evidence.

King Mob · 13-02-2017 1:20am

J C wrote: »

Other questions, like where all the Flood-water went, are answerable from repeatably observable evidence.

So aside from how all flood geology is abject lies and nonsense, here's a good video explaining how the actual process of the flood is physically impossible:

Doctor Jimbob · 13-02-2017 1:21am

J C wrote: »

It's the only plausible answer to the virgin birth, the resurrection of Jesus ... and the origins of life.

Other questions, like where all the Flood-water went, are answerable from repeatably observable evidence.

I think "they didn't happen" is also a pretty plausible answer to the virgin birth and the resurrection of Jesus.

What about the repeatedly observable evidence for evolution, which you're surely familiar with as an evolutionary biologist?

Michael OBrien · 13-02-2017 6:08pm

J C wrote: »

Amazingly, conventional science believes that there was a Flood on Mars ... where tiny amounts of water currently exist ... and no Flood on Earth, where there is sufficient water in the Oceans of the World to cover the entire Earth to an average 2.6 Km if the surface was a smooth sphere.

It might have something to do with the inconvenient fact that the earth is not a PERFECTLY smooth sphere. The span of the earth is 12,756 km (approximately) across so a few km difference makes little difference but your argument is to say that IF the earth was not the way it is, then your view might be in with a chance. That is clutching at straws.
There are all sorts of reasons that the water could not be as you say, if Noah was to survive, including pressure and temperature involved with the sudden appearance of multiple times the water that is on the surface of the earth.
There is zero possibility for that story to be true. We have earlier stories from other religions that show a chain of custody for it being a human retelling of normal flood experiences to express religious beliefs.

J C · 13-02-2017 10:34pm

King Mob wrote: »

So aside from how all flood geology is abject lies and nonsense, here's a good video explaining how the actual process of the flood is physically impossible:

More self-serving straw men ... than you could shake a stick at.
For example, he talks about rain being an impossible method of flooding the earth ... but the prime flooding mechanism was sub-terranean waters being tectonically released ... and not rain.

J C · 13-02-2017 10:38pm

Michael OBrien wrote: »

It might have something to do with the inconvenient fact that the earth is not a PERFECTLY smooth sphere. The span of the earth is 12,756 km (approximately) across so a few km difference makes little difference but your argument is to say that IF the earth was not the way it is, then your view might be in with a chance.
.

I'm merely using the smooth earth idea to illustrate the scale of the total water volume on Earth ...
It is also thought that the ante-diluvian Earth had a much smoother surface than it does today ... whose mountains and valleys are the result of the massive tectonic upheavals during the Flood.

Timberrrrrrrr · 13-02-2017 10:41pm

J C wrote: »

I'm merely using the smooth earth idea to illustrate the scale of the total water volume on Earth ...
However, it is thought that the ante-diluvian Earth had a much smoother surface than it does today ... which is the result the massive tectonic upheavals during the Flood.

And yet Noah's little home made boat managed to survive the massive tsunamis that these upheavals would have caused?

I would say you couldn't make this up yet here you are doing exactly that.

J C · 13-02-2017 10:43pm

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

I think "they didn't happen" is also a pretty plausible answer to the virgin birth and the resurrection of Jesus.

They certainly couldn't happen by naturalistic processes ... so they were supernatural events ... just like the creation of life, as well.:)

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

What about the repeatedly observable evidence for evolution, which you're surely familiar with as an evolutionary biologist?

What about them? ... all they prove is that artificial/natural/sexual selection selects ... with no plausible naturalistic mechanism for producing the genetic information ... and its phenotypes that are selected by these mechanisms.:)

J C · 13-02-2017 10:47pm

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

And yet Noah's little home made boat managed to survive the massive tsunamis that these upheavals would have caused?

I would say you couldn't make this up yet here you are doing exactly that.

Tsunamis don't present much of a threat to shipping at sea ... they only become dangerous, when they make landfall ... and even then, they rapidly run out of momentum upon reching the coast!!:)

Pherekydes · 13-02-2017 11:12pm

J C wrote: »

More self-serving straw men ... than you could shake a stick at.
For example, he talks about rain being an impossible method of flooding the earth ... but the prime flooding mechanism was sub-terranean waters being tectonically released ... and not rain.

I don't recall this being mentioned in the bible. Someone's telling porkies...

Doctor Jimbob · 13-02-2017 11:13pm

J C wrote: »

They certainly couldn't happen by naturalistic processes ... so they were supernatural events ... just like the creation of life, as well.:)

Okay, but what if they just didn't happen? I'm not asking you do deny they happened, I'm curious as to whether you think it's plausible that they didn't.

What about them? ... all they prove is that artificial/natural/sexual selection selects ... with no plausible naturalistic mechanism for producing the genetic information ... and its phenotypes that are selected by these mechanisms.:)

I would have thought an evolutionary biologist would be familiar with mutations.

J C · 13-02-2017 11:14pm

Pherekydes wrote: »

I don't recall this being mentioned in the bible. Someone's telling porkies...

Gen 7:11 refers

11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, on the seventeenth day of the second month—on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened. 12 And rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights.

Timberrrrrrrr · 13-02-2017 11:18pm

Pherekydes wrote: »

I don't recall this being mentioned in the bible. Someone's telling porkies...

It's his personal take on how it must have happened

J C · 13-02-2017 11:18pm

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Okay, but what if they just didn't happen? I'm not asking you do deny they happened, I'm curious as to whether you think it's plausible that they didn't.

They could only happen by supernatural intervention.
... so they would seem implausible to somebody who doesn't believe that God exists.

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

I would have thought an evolutionary biologist would be familiar with mutations.

I am of course familiar with them ... and they are invariably destructive/degrading of genetic information ... so therefore not a plausible mechanism to generated the vast quantities of perfect (or almost perfect) genetic information observed in living organisms.

J C · 13-02-2017 11:20pm

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

It's his personal take on how it must have happened

Its not my 'personal take' on it ... its what Gen 7:11 says happened:-
11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, on the seventeenth day of the second month—on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened. 12 And rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights.

The Origin of Specious Nonsense. Twelve years on. Still going. Answer soon.

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