How Are Aircoach Financially Viable?

Thargor · 01-09-2015 11:44am #1

Coming back from Dublin airport the other night I paid €7 to get into town with Aircoach, only a euro more expensive than the heavily subsidized 747 service, cant criticize anything about it, lovely bus and efficient driver etc but it was just me and an elderly couple on a massive bus, this is my 4th or 5th time using them and seeing this, they also have a full time employee at a booth 24/7 at the airport from what I can see aswell.

Also I live in Bray and am well used to seeing empty aircoaches on the road constantly, they are never busy, ever. all the fuel and expense of running massive empty buses out to Greystones and beyond all day every day with no option to pick up anyone besides airport traffic.

How do they stay in business? And why dont they run something small like a Finnegans bus or one of those little converted transit minibuses? An Aircoach car would do the job a lot of the time from what I can see! Are they recieving grants or subsidies or something?

Alun · 01-09-2015 11:46am

I wonder that myself too, not only the airport routes but the Belfast route too. I've used it a few times and there were never more than 5 or 6 people on it.

cdebru · 01-09-2015 11:54am

Thargor wrote: »

Coming back from Dublin airport the other night I paid €7 to get into town with Aircoach, only a euro more expensive than the heavily subsidized 747 service, cant criticize anything about it, lovely bus and efficient driver etc but it was just me and an elderly couple on a massive bus, this is my 4th or 5th time using them and seeing this, they also have a full time employee at a booth 24/7 at the airport from what I can see aswell.

Also I live in Bray and am well used to seeing empty aircoaches on the road constantly, they are never busy, ever. all the fuel and expense of running massive empty buses out to Greystones and beyond all day every day with no option to pick up anyone besides airport traffic.

How do they stay in business? And why dont they run something small like a Finnegans bus or one of those little converted transit minibuses? An Aircoach car would do the job a lot of the time from what I can see! Are they recieving grants or subsidies or something?

747 is not a subsidized service, it is operated on a commercial basis the same as the tour buses and the nitelinks.

theteal · 01-09-2015 11:58am

It's been a few years but when I used to get the aircoach from that little street behind O'Neill pub (suffolk street??), there was always a decent queue of people and very few empty seats

LXFlyer · 01-09-2015 12:00pm

Thargor wrote: »

Coming back from Dublin airport the other night I paid €7 to get into town with Aircoach, only a euro more expensive than the heavily subsidized 747 service, cant criticize anything about it, lovely bus and efficient driver etc but it was just me and an elderly couple on a massive bus, this is my 4th or 5th time using them and seeing this, they also have a full time employee at a booth 24/7 at the airport from what I can see aswell.

Also I live in Bray and am well used to seeing empty aircoaches on the road constantly, they are never busy, ever. all the fuel and expense of running massive empty buses out to Greystones and beyond all day every day with no option to pick up anyone besides airport traffic.

How do they stay in business? And why dont they run something small like a Finnegans bus or one of those little converted transit minibuses? An Aircoach car would do the job a lot of the time from what I can see! Are they recieving grants or subsidies or something?

But are they empty at the inner part of the route?

It's all very well to say that they might be empty around Bray, but perhaps by the time they get to the Point Depot they have a decent load having picked up en route, particularly from Ballsbridge inwards. It can also depend on the time of day. The point is that they have an hourly service. As well as that, certain journeys (especially at night) will effectively be positioning journeys in one direction due to there being little or no demand, but it is as well to operate them in service than not.

As above, the 747 is not subsidised - it's a commercial service.

minterno · 01-09-2015 12:43pm

I went from Cork to Dublin Airport 2 months ago on the 1am bus, they were packed, had to put on a second bus and waited for the second bus to arrive before loading passengers, the bus I got on had every single seat taken and it looked much the same on the second bus, on the return journey 4 weeks later on a 3 or 3.30 pm bus the bus was about 80% full.

logically · 01-09-2015 1:05pm

http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/aircoach-cuts-losses-350232.html

RainyDay · 01-09-2015 1:38pm

Dublin Coach have started a new service to the airport with big green buses, several years after the Aircoach Ballinteer service stopped, so there must be some money in it

http://dublincoach.ie/timetables-fares/dublin-airport-dundrum-luas-bus.php

Pity AirCoach and the long-defunct LocalLink wouldn't remove their defunct bus stops now....

Michael D Not Higgins · 01-09-2015 1:39pm

The thing is that they're operated by First who have a large company behind them to absorb losses with the intention of expansion. I was on an Aircoach to Dublin airport only yesterday at 2.30pm on the Leopardstown route and it was nearly full by the time it was leaving the city for the airport.

cdebru · 01-09-2015 1:45pm

The nature of scheduled public transport is that there will be busy journeys and quiet journeys, you can't extrapolate from your experience travelling that all other journeys are similar either busy or quiet.

Terrontress · 01-09-2015 1:47pm

RainyDay wrote: »

Dublin Coach have started a new service to the airport with big green buses, several years after the Aircoach Ballinteer service stopped, so there must be some money in it

http://dublincoach.ie/timetables-fares/dublin-airport-dundrum-luas-bus.php

Pity AirCoach and the long-defunct LocalLink wouldn't remove their defunct bus stops now....

It looks like they have bought their buses off Aircoach!

devnull · 01-09-2015 2:16pm

Thargor wrote: »

Coming back from Dublin airport the other night I paid €7 to get into town with Aircoach, only a euro more expensive than the heavily subsidized 747 service, cant criticize anything about it, lovely bus and efficient driver etc but it was just me and an elderly couple on a massive bus, this is my 4th or 5th time using them and seeing this, they also have a full time employee at a booth 24/7 at the airport from what I can see aswell.

Personally I don't like the current form of the 747 if I'm going form the city centre to the Airport, because it takes a convoluted route through the city centre even though it uses the port tunnel. Whilst Aircoach 700 goes via Drumcondra and Swords road, it tends to be no slower than the 747 because it doesn't stop so much. The Journey times on them both are pretty similar, and if you buy Aircoach oniine it's €6 so same price for more room, leather seats and plug sockets. Only bad thing is they don't take leap.

How do they stay in business? And why dont they run something small like a Finnegans bus or one of those little converted transit minibuses??

The Greystones route has lost customers, both from taxis and the fact that since they added the Ballsbridge service on, the route has had not had enough running times and they have not been able to get bus stops erected on some of the stops which is less than desirable. They probably don't fix the timetable so it is more reliable, because doing so would require extra vehicles and staff increasing the costs substantially.

cdebru wrote: »

747 is not a subsidized service, it is operated on a commercial basis the same as the tour buses and the nitelinks.

Although the 747 has gained customers from Aircoach via it's inclusion in the Leap Visitor Card, which is subsidised by EU funds if I'm correct?

Alun wrote: »

I wonder that myself too, not only the airport routes but the Belfast route too. I've used it a few times and there were never more than 5 or 6 people on it.

When was the last time you used it? Recently they have had to move 53 seat coaches onto peak time services to replace 44 seaters to provide extra capacity, but of course off-peak times it is much quieter.

logically wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/aircoach-cuts-losses-350232.html

The huge loss the previous year was high due to a number of one off events, including the launch of two brand new express routes which had substantial marketing, start-up and investment costs and also a very competitive marketplace and a price war that started with GoBE on the Cork route.

Last year they lost 700k, reduced because of the absence of start-up costs, and the fact they had 10 more fuel efficient vehicles replacing 10 older ones to reduce their running costs. Even since those accounts, they've took another 12 fuel efficient vehicles on replacing 11 year old ones and there has been a switch to Yield management based, but still discounted pricing on the intercity routes rather than a flat rate for on-line fares.

devnull · 01-09-2015 2:17pm

Terrontress wrote: »

It looks like they have bought their buses off Aircoach!

Aircoach returned the 2004 vehicles off-lease to Mercedes and replaced them with brand new coaches that were more fuel and operationally efficient.

AlekSmart · 01-09-2015 3:09pm

devnull wrote: »

Although the 747 has gained customers from Aircoach via it's inclusion in the Leap Visitor Card, which is subsidised by EU funds if I'm correct?

The Leap Visitor Card is an interesting creature for sure.

It is indeed an "EU" aided project,being an integral part of the Smart Integrated Ticketing for Europe element of the EU's Interreg project.

The funding,as I understand it was targetted at the development and implementation of the "Product",rather than any ongoing Operator subsidy.

It may well be open to First-Aircoach to apply for inclusion on the Visitor Leapcard package,however this would be a commercial agreement between First-Aircoach and the NTA,most likely involving disounting in some way,shape or form.

With the introductory phase of Leapcard now largely over,there may well now be a period of re-negotiation between Operators and Leapcard itself,something which,I understand may already be underway with at least one of the first private sector operators of Leapcard.

Lot's of change on the horizon....;)

LXFlyer · 01-09-2015 3:19pm

RainyDay wrote: »

Dublin Coach have started a new service to the airport with big green buses, several years after the Aircoach Ballinteer service stopped, so there must be some money in it

http://dublincoach.ie/timetables-fares/dublin-airport-dundrum-luas-bus.php

Pity AirCoach and the long-defunct LocalLink wouldn't remove their defunct bus stops now....

I don't think that the prime purpose of that service is to link Dundrum with the airport, but rather to provide connections off their M7 service both to Dundrum Shopping Centre and to the Airport at Red Cow.

Perhaps there could be a marketing arrangement between the Shopping Centre and the bus company?

If it were aimed at Dundrum residents, then not having any buses arrive at the airport before 08:10, and none leave the airport after 22:00 would seem very strange indeed. They're missing the peak departure and arrival times at the airport altogether!

bk · 01-09-2015 5:03pm

You can't really tell how a company is doing based on loadings of a few runs.

While the few times you were on it might have been lightly loaded and thus run at break even or even a loss, at another peak time the bus could be jam packed and thus highly profitable.

For example go to Westmoreland Street at 5pm on a Friday and watch as Aircoach fill 3 coaches per hour due to how busy it is!

They were profitable before the recession, the recession was hard on them and they made some significant loses, but they also invested heavily in two new routes to Cork and Belfast and these routes seem to have paid off handsomely. They have massively reduced their losses this year and are expected to return to profitability next year.

It is notable that they have bought/leased 16 brand new coaches in the last 12 months. They certainly wouldn't be doing that if they weren't seeing things picking up. These new coaches are much more fuel efficient then the coaches they replaced, which should help greatly. Also the features and turn out of new coaches should also drive new customers to try and use the service.

Banjoxed · 02-09-2015 8:07am

devnull wrote: »

Personally I don't like the current form of the 747 if I'm going form the city centre to the Airport, because it takes a convoluted route through the city centre even though it uses the port tunnel. Whilst Aircoach 700 goes via Drumcondra and Swords road, it tends to be no slower than the 747 because it doesn't stop so much. The Journey times on them both are pretty similar, and if you buy Aircoach oniine it's €6 so same price for more room, leather seats and plug sockets. Only bad thing is they don't take leap.

The Greystones route has lost customers, both from taxis and the fact that since they added the Ballsbridge service on, the route has had not had enough running times and they have not been able to get bus stops erected on some of the stops which is less than desirable. They probably don't fix the timetable so it is more reliable, because doing so would require extra vehicles and staff increasing the costs substantially.

Although the 747 has gained customers from Aircoach via it's inclusion in the Leap Visitor Card, which is subsidised by EU funds if I'm correct?

When was the last time you used it? Recently they have had to move 53 seat coaches onto peak time services to replace 44 seaters to provide extra capacity, but of course off-peak times it is much quieter.

The huge loss the previous year was high due to a number of one off events, including the launch of two brand new express routes which had substantial marketing, start-up and investment costs and also a very competitive marketplace and a price war that started with GoBE on the Cork route.

Last year they lost 700k, reduced because of the absence of start-up costs, and the fact they had 10 more fuel efficient vehicles replacing 10 older ones to reduce their running costs. Even since those accounts, they've took another 12 fuel efficient vehicles on replacing 11 year old ones and there has been a switch to Yield management based, but still discounted pricing on the intercity routes rather than a flat rate for on-line fares.

I found the 747 infuriating until I decided to get off at the Point and take the tram to Heuston instead.

Crumbs868 · 03-09-2015 8:57pm

they came to Ireland for the anticipated opening up of Dublin bus routes, that's many years ago and after the huge initial investment and millions and millions of losses they still live in hope of these routes been opened up (they mention it every year in their annual report).

You would have to wonder if the government finally park the opening of routes what would happen

However saying they they must be benefiting from the surge in Dublin airport traffic.

devnull · 03-09-2015 9:19pm

Actually Aircoach are still in positive figures in their profit and loss account since they started trading. They made €2m - €3m profit for a few years running before the recession and not all of that has been wiped out yet.

bk · 04-09-2015 9:55am

devnull wrote: »

Actually Aircoach are still in positive figures in their profit and loss account since they started trading. They made €2m - €3m profit for a few years running before the recession and not all of that has been wiped out yet.

Which when you consider they receive no subsidies (or free buses, depots, stations, etc.) like Bus Eireann and Dublin Bus do, then that is pretty excellent performance.

Their profit/loss profile seems very similar to Luas.

Crumbs868, even if First lost interest, someone like Citylink, GoBus, Dublin Coach or Megabus would certainly snap up the operation. Given that they have just received 6 brand new coaches, it doesn't sound like they are going anywhere.

RainyDay · 04-09-2015 7:55pm

bk wrote: »

Which when you consider they receive no subsidies (or free buses, depots, stations, etc.) like Bus Eireann and Dublin Bus do, then that is pretty excellent performance.

It's relatively easy to make a profit if you cherrypick the routes you serve.

newacc2015 · 04-09-2015 8:00pm

I get buses from town all the time. There is always a pretty long queue for the aircoach on westmoreland street most days. Im sure even a few good months in the summer would cover potential losses for the winter. I know all my friends use the aircoach to get to cork, as Irish Rail is robbery.

devnull · 04-09-2015 8:49pm

RainyDay wrote: »

It's relatively easy to make a profit if you cherrypick the routes you serve.

Cherrypicking is a term which is used by people who don't understand public transport licensing and the way profitable and unprofitable routes work and how companies are funded.

Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann only operate the loss making routes because they are paid to do so. They don't do it out of the kindness of their hearts believe it or not. Take away their subsidy and then see how long they last. So don't paint the state companies out to be saving us from the private cherrypickers.

The fact is, privates don't operate unviable routes because they are not paid to do so and their losses are not covered. Public operators do operate unviable routes, because they are paid to do so and have their losses covered. Maybe that will change in the future with the tendering if it happens, but that is the way it is now.

It's relatively easy to sustain operating a loss making route when your losses are subsided by the taxpayer.

Stephen15 · 05-09-2015 12:46am

I find the quickpark much easier and cheaper for going to the airport if your going in a group.

RainyDay · 05-09-2015 8:39pm

devnull wrote: »

Cherrypicking is a term which is used by people who don't understand public transport licensing and the way profitable and unprofitable routes work and how companies are funded.

Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann only operate the loss making routes because they are paid to do so. They don't do it out of the kindness of their hearts believe it or not. Take away their subsidy and then see how long they last. So don't paint the state companies out to be saving us from the private cherrypickers.

The fact is, privates don't operate unviable routes because they are not paid to do so and their losses are not covered. Public operators do operate unviable routes, because they are paid to do so and have their losses covered. Maybe that will change in the future with the tendering if it happens, but that is the way it is now.

It's relatively easy to sustain operating a loss making route when your losses are subsided by the taxpayer.

Could you be any more patronising?

Step back in time a bit. Public service providers provided services to fill needs. The Govt paid to cover the gap between fare income and the costs of providing that service.

devnull · 05-09-2015 9:08pm

RainyDay wrote: »

Public service providers provided services to fill needs. The Govt paid to cover the gap between fare income and the costs of providing that service.

I think you've answered your own point there.

Stephen15 · 05-09-2015 10:25pm

devnull wrote: »

Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann only operate the loss making routes because they are paid to do so. They don't do it out of the kindness of their hearts believe it or not. Take away their subsidy and then see how long they last. So don't paint the state companies out to be saving us from the private cherrypickers.

No one ever said they do it out of the kindness of their hearts. They aren't in it for the profit they're there to provide a much needed service. DB and BE need to stop being treated as profit making businesses and be treated as socially nessacery services.

devnull · 06-09-2015 8:50am

Stephen15 wrote: »

They aren't in it for the profit they're there to provide a much needed service.

And of course, the fact that they are paid to do so by the government has absolutely nothing to do with this?

DB and BE need to stop being treated as profit making businesses and be treated as socially nessacery services.

Have you heard of something called Expressway?

It's a bunch of services operated by BE on a for profit basis since they get no funding for them with many services recently having unviable stops cut out.

LXFlyer · 06-09-2015 9:21am

Stephen15 wrote: »

No one ever said they do it out of the kindness of their hearts. They aren't in it for the profit they're there to provide a much needed service. DB and BE need to stop being treated as profit making businesses and be treated as socially nessacery services.

No one is expecting DB and BE to make a profit before subsidies are taken into account.

However I don't think it unreasonable for them to be expected to run them in a cost effective manner.

cdebru · 06-09-2015 8:18pm

devnull wrote: »

Cherrypicking is a term which is used by people who don't understand public transport licensing and the way profitable and unprofitable routes work and how companies are funded.

Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann only operate the loss making routes because they are paid to do so. They don't do it out of the kindness of their hearts believe it or not. Take away their subsidy and then see how long they last. So don't paint the state companies out to be saving us from the private cherrypickers.

The fact is, privates don't operate unviable routes because they are not paid to do so and their losses are not covered. Public operators do operate unviable routes, because they are paid to do so and have their losses covered. Maybe that will change in the future with the tendering if it happens, but that is the way it is now.

It's relatively easy to sustain operating a loss making route when your losses are subsided by the taxpayer.

The point is you cant compare them, they are operating on a different basis, so saying they are doing good or bad compared to each other is a pointless exercise.

How Are Aircoach Financially Viable?

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