Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Sealing in windows - Silicone vs Foam?

Options
  • 26-05-2015 2:32pm
    #1
    fairp
    Registered Users Posts: 9 ✭


    I have just had a quote from a company in Dublin who are Veka approved, for new windows in my house. The guy spoke to me, telling me about how they seal the windows in with this foam rather than silicone. He said something about silicone trapping moisture in, resulting in slight dampness around the windows? He (obviously) said the foam is much better, and they are the only company that uses it. He also said there is no need for me to have tripple glazing as it wouldn't make a huge difference.
    I have no clue about any of this, can anyone shed any light?

    It's a huge amount of money (for us) so I really want to be informed and get it right. We are only able to (maybe) get our front windows done for now, but we would hopefully use the same company in the future to get the rest done.

    Thanks


Comments

  • Options
    #2
    Strolling Bones
    Registered Users Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Strolling Bones


    Walk away now


  • Options
    #3
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,692 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    As above. They do sound like fly by nights if im honest.

    If you are serious about Windows go to a reputable company that has been in business for some time. Not a guy knocking at the door.


  • Options
    #4
    fairp
    Registered Users Posts: 9 ✭fairp


    Well that's not very informative. This is a reputable company and not some guy knocking on my door.
    Thanks...


  • Options
    #5
    Strolling Bones
    Registered Users Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Strolling Bones


    Spend your money. It is yours after all.


  • Options
    #6
    fairp
    Registered Users Posts: 9 ✭fairp


    I was looking for better information. Thank you for telling me to walk away rather than give me reasons why. Maybe you have no idea about what this foam is, never came across it before - if so, say so. If you have then give me reasons why I should "walk away".
    I'm looking to make an informed decision on how to spend my money. I'm not going to just trust the sales man, but I'm also not going to trust some guy on the Internet who's best information is "walk away"


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #7
    Strolling Bones
    Registered Users Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Strolling Bones


    I you have no idea about what this foam is, never came across it before.
    Some other guy may post information more satisfying to you.


  • Options
    #8
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,140 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    fairp wrote: »
    I have just had a quote from a company in Dublin who are Veka approved, for new windows in my house. The guy spoke to me, telling me about how they seal the windows in with this foam rather than silicone. He said something about silicone trapping moisture in, resulting in slight dampness around the windows? He (obviously) said the foam is much better, and they are the only company that uses it. He also said there is no need for me to have tripple glazing as it wouldn't make a huge difference.
    I have no clue about any of this, can anyone shed any light?

    It's a huge amount of money (for us) so I really want to be informed and get it right. We are only able to (maybe) get our front windows done for now, but we would hopefully use the same company in the future to get the rest done.

    Thanks
    you have stated enough to suggest these guys don't know what they are talking about. this is a company selling you their product. Foam can be ok for filling small gaps to achieve insulation continuity , but suitable silicone is required for air-tightness and separately externally for weathering.

    As for the 3G v 2g there is no debate 3G is better


  • Options
    #9
    fepper
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,434 ✭✭✭fepper


    years ago,replaced all windows in old house with pvc windows that were sealed with silicone,terrible job with the silicone drying and breaking off and the pvc are awful and am changing them as soon funds allow


  • Options
    #10
    Dudda
    Registered Users Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭Dudda


    Are you sure the Veka approved system works in Ireland? That's a UK system where they provide a 10 year guarantee. I could be wrong but I don't think it applies to Ireland. That would be my first worry.


  • Options
    #11
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,073 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    veka approved??

    by my research VEKA are just another pvc window supply company and not an approval body by any means.
    so this company is basically saying they are approved to install windows from the company that supplies them.........


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #12
    Dudda
    Registered Users Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭Dudda


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    veka approved??

    by my research VEKA are just another pvc window supply company and not an approval body by any means.
    so this company is basically saying they are approved to install windows from the company that supplies them.........
    Yes, pretty much but they provide a 10 year guarantee in the UK. Frames only though so this foam seal wouldn't be included which is very worrying.


  • Options
    #13
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,073 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    well, a big supplier from a southern province also give a 10 year guarantee ;)


  • Options
    #14
    Strolling Bones
    Registered Users Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Strolling Bones


    hmmm. The Veka "Knowledge Bank" is as broke ar our own banks.

    An "approval" from that source would not inspire much confidence in me.


    Category Building Regulations (1 documents )
    Category Energy Ratings (2 documents )
    Category Environmental (2 documents )
    Category Installation Manuals (0 documents )
    Category Marketing Support (2 documents )
    Category Part L (0 documents )
    Category Partnering (1 documents )
    Category Planning Applications (1 documents )
    Category Presentations (1 documents )
    Category Product Information (0 documents )
    Category Recycling (1 documents )
    Category Specification Guide (0 documents )
    Category Surveying (0 documents )
    Category Technical Applications (0 documents )
    Category Working at VEKA (8 documents )


  • Options
    #15
    Strolling Bones
    Registered Users Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Strolling Bones


    Strolling Bones wrote: »
    Category Installation Manuals (0 documents )

    no wonder the "approved" installer gives such advice to his punters


  • Options
    #16
    fairp
    Registered Users Posts: 9 ✭fairp


    Maybe veka approved was the wrong way to say it. They used veka approved installers, they have the veka guarantee.
    I have asked him to email me explaining the foam again to me and explaining the guarantee.

    This company also supplies triple glazing, but the guy said that the benefits would be minimal for my window size needs.


  • Options
    #17
    Strolling Bones
    Registered Users Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Strolling Bones


    You should definitely install double glazed foam sealed veka windows. No doubt.


  • Options
    #18
    cork2
    Registered Users Posts: 291 ✭✭cork2


    fairp wrote: »
    I have just had a quote from a company in Dublin who are Veka approved, for new windows in my house. The guy spoke to me, telling me about how they seal the windows in with this foam rather than silicone. He said something about silicone trapping moisture in, resulting in slight dampness around the windows? He (obviously) said the foam is much better, and they are the only company that uses it. He also said there is no need for me to have tripple glazing as it wouldn't make a huge difference.
    I have no clue about any of this, can anyone shed any light?

    It's a huge amount of money (for us) so I really want to be informed and get it right. We are only able to (maybe) get our front windows done for now, but we would hopefully use the same company in the future to get the rest done.

    Thanks


    This special foam that nobody else uses requires more info. It sounds like a salesman talking rubbish but more info would be great. There are many different types of foam. If it's a foam approved for airtightness that would be one thing maybe but they wouldn't be the only ones using it. Silicone is commonly used on the exterior of the building weatherproof the building.


  • Options
    #19
    DOCARCH
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,742 Mod ✭✭✭✭DOCARCH


    Mod Note: @ Strolling Bones. Your constructive input is always welcome...the sarcastic input no so! Please keep comments constructive...or say nothing!


  • Options
    #20
    martinn123
    Registered Users Posts: 2,300 ✭✭✭martinn123


    ''Network Veka'' is a marketing exercise, set up to promote the use of ''Veka'' uPVC.

    Veka are a leading manufacturer of uPVC Profile i.e the material Windows are made from

    Veka Approved Installers, are window installers who have attended a training course in UK, they get to use pictures of Steve Davis in their advertising material.
    They pay a proportion of their Sales income towards the ''Veka Guarantee'' which guarantees the profile, not the hinges, locks, other hardware, or the glass, ( as none are Veka Products )


    There are at least 3 installers in Dublin for example who claim on their Web-sites to be the ''Only '' Approved installers in Ireland.

    Expanding Foam is used extensively in the installation of Windows, nothing new there


  • Options
    #21
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,761 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    ...fairp - you haven't given us any info on what this 'foam' is, so it's really not fair to expect an objective comment on that.

    As for the silicone, well where we work, silicone is banned, period. It shrinks over time and falls out of joints etc. That bit I do go for.

    In lieu of silicone we use a single-part adhesive/sealer which most people wouldn't (due to cost), but it's on a different plane altogether. Like so much in life, you get what you pay for.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #22
    fairp
    Registered Users Posts: 9 ✭fairp


    Thank you, as I said above, I have asked him to email me explaining the foam so I can understand better.

    Is it general practice for companies to offer a guarantee? If so, what do I need to look for in a guarantee? It sounds like getting a guarantee for just the glass is not much.

    I really appreciate the informative replies. I came here for unbiased information and guidance. I don't like sales people because I can never tell if they are giving me sound information.


  • Options
    #23
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,761 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    ...anything you pay for should have a guarantee: whether a window, a window handle, or a whole house.

    Get specific on what is/is not guaranteed: hinges, locks, seals, paint, glass & glazing, installation (including the sealing you talk of)

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



  • Options
    #24
    fairp
    Registered Users Posts: 9 ✭fairp


    The foam is TP600
    You can find information about it by googling TP600

    Product 68 / 104
    TP600

    Compriband 600
    TP600 Compriband 600TP600 Compriband 600
    Usage / Purpose
    TP600 is an impregnated joint sealing tape for use in a wide variety of movement joints including window perimeter seals and other applications.

    Key Benefits
    15 year performance guarantee
    Weather seal for wind-driven rain
    Breathable – for vapour diffusion
    Continually expands and contracts to accommodate movement whilst still sealing the joints
    Thermal and acoustic insulation
    Description
    TP600 is a soft and flexible open cell polyurethane foam, impregnated with an acrylic based, UV stabilised resin. The resin is water repellent and contains a fire retardant.
    It is supplied as pre-compressed rolls with a self-adhesive side to aid initial location. Weather tight against the most severe combinations of wind and rain, it satisfies most expectations as an external weather seal in building and civil engineering applications. With full BBA approval, the product has been extensively tested and has a proven reputation across both the UK and Europe. (Cert. 96/3309)


  • Options
    #25
    newstyle
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 60 ✭✭newstyle


    Hi
    couple of years ago I was a windows fitter in other country, we worked only on the foam and special clamps ( VEKA profiles and other) and I've never heard about fitting with silicone. I don't know the Irish standards but foam is proper to do this job in many other countries (if we talking about the gap between window and wall)

    Regards


  • Options
    #26
    MicktheMan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,825 ✭✭✭MicktheMan


    newstyle wrote: »
    Hi
    couple of years ago I was a windows fitter in other country, we worked only on the foam and special clamps ( VEKA profiles and other) and I've never heard about fitting with silicone. I don't know the Irish standards but foam is proper to do this job in many other countries (if we talking about the gap between window and wall)

    Regards

    Foam shrinks over time an does not maintain any level of air tightness. To seal windows properly and long term, proprietary air tightness tape systems should be used.


  • Options
    #27
    newstyle
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 60 ✭✭newstyle


    Hi thank you for your interest of my post.

    Unfortunately I can't attach any pictures yet but I have a good example of the shrinked silicone in my own house. At the same time as silicone ( two years ago) I filled some gap with the foam outside. From my experience confirmed by those examples i can say a silicone can shrinks too, but foam is not resistant for weather conditions.  Opened foam gets oxidation but closed in the wall is ok. Foam also gives you a better U-value for fitted window than silicone.

    As you said, foam doesn't give you any tightness, this is why silicone is used as a sealant only, not for fitting.

    Summing up, foam for fit window in to the wall,  silicone for seal joining outside plaster and window frame, and dec. caulc to internal joining plaster and window frame. This is the standard what I know.

    If foam shrinks why is suitable for attic insulation?

    Give me few days to write enough posts to get access to attach the pictures then I will be able to proof my words.

    Thank you for opening discussion

    Regards

    David


  • Options
    #28
    braftery
    Registered Users Posts: 242 ✭✭braftery


    There are various fitting materials used when fitting windows and each one performs a different task. In Europe there a RAL code, which outlines a very precise method of the fitting of windows and if these principles are used the window will be well fitted.

    However different building types (New builds - Timber Frame, Wide Cavity, Block on Flat with External Insulation, Refurbs: with new plastering externally, without new plastering externally, etc) can require a different combination of fitting materials to be used. So the best method is not a standard but should be worked out for your building / job.

    Fitting Materials:

    Metal Straps: These are used to mechanically fix the window frame to the building structure. These are always best fitted facing into the build so the vertical DPC is not broken. These stop the window moving or flexing from weather conditions. In refurbs fitting these will mean breaking away internally plastering and tiles.

    Foam:

    This is used to fill the "fitting tolerance" space between the window frame and the wall structure, this maintains the thermal value of the overall wall structure. This offers a degree of airtightness but is not usually rated as airtight. The type of foam used is very important, there are specialist Window fitting foams, that are higher denisty and lower expansion, these give a better thermal value but more importantly will not cause the frame to flex.

    NB: It is likely that ALL foams will cause some flex if Metal Straps are not used !! Fitting windows without

    The foams I am aware of are not a full weather tight seal.

    Compriband / Expanding Tape:

    This is a layer (usually 10mm wide) of water proof expanding tape. It is adhesive on one side and expands out to the wall structure on the other.
    This is a very good water tight layer, but only if it expands to <50% of the max expansion. Used in compression against old plaster reveals it can work very well.

    I suspect

    Silicone / Mastic:

    This is sometimes used as an external weather tight seal between window frames and wall structure.
    It is rarely used in new builds, as the vertical DPC and then plastering will do the same job but will look alot neater.
    This is often used on refurbs when the client does not plan to replaster the exterior of the building, but sometimes compriband can be used instead.

    For Silicone and Mastic to work well it needs to have a space of more than 4mm and less 12-15mm (Mastic maybe a little bit more).

    On a refurb job, the external sealing can be complicated by damage that can be caused when un-installing the windows. Making it difficult or sometimes impossible to use either Compriband or Mastic/Silicone, and leaving the best solution replastering the external reveals that are broken.

    Hope this helps.


Advertisement