Sean Quinn avoids jail

Laminations · 29-06-2012 3:55pm #1

Bankrupt businessman Sean Quinn, his son Sean and nephew Peter Darragh Quinn have been ordered to take specified steps aimed at unwinding measures taken to put multi-million euro assets in the Quinn international property group beyond the reach of the former Anglo Irish Bank.

IT article

This is not the way contempt works. Usually you go to jail until you purge your contempt. Instead the 3 Quinn's are being ordered to cooperate and they'll avoid jail.

Ms Justice Elizabeth Dunne also today made clear to the three they could face punitive sanctions if they do not obey, which include orders requiring them to disclose all their assets.

Indo article

They should all be jailed until they cooperate especially as 'there was no acknowledgement by the three even at this stage of the "great wrongdoing" involved'. The judge gave no time frame for them to purge their contempt.

Counsel also indicated the Quinns were considering an appeal against the contempt findings suggesting they do not intend to cooperate but prolong and delay attempts to recover assets.

For the judge to pretend that the 'coercive stage' is a separate and former stage to the 'imprisonment stage' - i.e. that being in prison and not getting out until you cooperate isn't the better coercive course - is maddening.

Terrible ruling, giving the Quinn's more 'free time' to feck about.

_Kaiser_ · 29-06-2012 4:01pm

Not unexpected though. If it was you or I we'd be sitting behind bars now, but for our elite it's business as usual. That's how Ireland works.

There is a rotten core at the heart of our country that pervades everything from politics and big business to the average punter trying to "get away with" a speeding fine.

Simply put, we're not fit to govern ourselves

swimming in a sea · 29-06-2012 4:07pm

that bloke who fiddled the vat on his fruit&veg doing 6 years,

and this fellow who has done the country directly and indirectly out of billions gets to home to the mansion.

sick!

Laminations · 29-06-2012 4:08pm

The ruling doesn't match her statements on the case and the conduct of the Quinns.

All three engaged in a “complex, complicated and no doubt costly” series of steps designed to put assets beyond the reach of the bank, in “a blatant, dishonest and deceitful manner”, Ms Justice Elizabeth Dunne said, and she was satisfied beyond reasonable doubt they were guilty of contempt.

All three were “untruthful” at times to the court. Seán Quinn snr and his nephew were also evasive and unco-operative and she was “not impressed” with the evidence of any of them, some of which was “frankly unbelievable”.
The judge will rule on Friday what sanctions should be imposed after hearing from both sides but indicated, given her findings, she would find it “very difficult” not to include a “punitive” element.

She didn't find it that difficult. Everything she imposed could have been imposed with them behind bars.

The judge said she would not disagree with a description of the contempt of court orders in this case as "flagrant" and she was disappointed there was no acknowledgement by the three even at this stage of the "great wrongdoing" involved.

People who do not acknowledge their guilt/contempt should be jailed.

maynooth_rules · 29-06-2012 4:17pm

of course he did. we are too busy arresting the real criminals in this country, the horrible people that would declare garlic as apples to customs

hardCopy · 29-06-2012 4:25pm

maynooth_rules wrote: »

of course he did. we are too busy arresting the real criminals in this country, the horrible people that would declare garlic as apples to customs

Absolutely no reason they can't purge their contempt from prison. Set them up with a desk, a phone, a calculator and a slop bucket between the three of them.

Nodin · 29-06-2012 5:12pm

swimming in a sea wrote: »

that bloke who fiddled the vat on his fruit&veg doing 6 years,

and this fellow who has done the country directly and indirectly out of billions gets to home to the mansion.

sick!

Six years, despite having paid back over half the monies owed and expressing remorse, I might add. The amount evaded was 1.4 million Euro. The quinns were moving hundreds of millions, owe a minimum of 455 million and possibly up to 2.8 billion and haven't even acknowledged wrongdoing.

AlekSmart · 29-06-2012 5:35pm

Laminations wrote: »

The ruling doesn't match her statements on the case and the conduct of the Quinns.

She didn't find it that difficult. Everything she imposed could have been imposed with them behind bars.

People who do not acknowledge their guilt/contempt should be jailed.

From the media articles Ms Justice Dunne's decision appears to border on the GUBU. (Grotesque,Unbelievable,Bizzarre and Unusual).

It appears to be yet another example of our senior judiciary requiring a new set of guidelines as to their roles in recognising the "Public Interest" element in cases before them.

Perhaps Ms Justice Dunne could voluntarily set-aside the rules on non-discussion of judgements and go on National Media to explain to ORDINARY citizens the reasons for further magnaminity being extended Quinnwards...?

Something just is NOT right here,and Ms Justice Dunne surely needs to recognize the importance of her being seen to uphold the laws for EVERY citizen equally...?

Mr.Micro · 29-06-2012 5:37pm

Laminations wrote: »

IT article

This is not the way contempt works. Usually you go to jail until you purge your contempt. Instead the 3 Quinn's are being ordered to cooperate and they'll avoid jail.

Indo article

They should all be jailed until they cooperate especially as 'there was no acknowledgement by the three even at this stage of the "great wrongdoing" involved'. The judge gave no time frame for them to purge their contempt.

Counsel also indicated the Quinns were considering an appeal against the contempt findings suggesting they do not intend to cooperate but prolong and delay attempts to recover assets.

For the judge to pretend that the 'coercive stage' is a separate and former stage to the 'imprisonment stage' - i.e. that being in prison and not getting out until you cooperate isn't the better coercive course - is maddening.

Terrible ruling, giving the Quinn's more 'free time' to feck about.

The Quinns and do the right thing, lol. They owe 3 billion and they continue to get special treatment. Its all a big laugh at the taxpayer and ordinary citizens of Ireland.

bmaxi · 30-06-2012 10:06pm

The Judiciary are part of the establishment and the establishment is corrupt. Are people only waking up to this now? Corrupt politicians appoint toadying judges into lifelong untouchable positions and then we're surprised when they do little favours for their friends.

jimmycrackcorm · 30-06-2012 10:17pm

bmaxi wrote: »

The Judiciary are part of the establishment and the establishment is corrupt. Are people only waking up to this now? Corrupt politicians appoint toadying judges into lifelong untouchable positions and then we're surprised when they do little favours for their friends.

If that were true then she would not have found them in contempt in the first place.

As it is, it's a warning that they have to follow through with the direction to recover the missing money.

Laminations · 30-06-2012 10:24pm

Laminations wrote: »

'The judge gave no time frame for them to purge their contempt.

Correction

'The men have until 20 July to comply when the case returns to the High Court'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-18647401

So 3 weeks

Flange/Flanders · 30-06-2012 10:32pm

Maybe if Quinn dresses up as a little old woman he might be put in jail....

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0912/breaking44.html

Sometimes I get pissed off at what goes on in this country

bmaxi · 30-06-2012 11:02pm

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

If that were true then she would not have found them in contempt in the first place.

As it is, it's a warning that they have to follow through with the direction to recover the missing money.

Politicians have also been found guilty, it's the discrepancy in treatment between them and us lesser mortals that is being discussed. Remember the pictures of a smug, sneering Ray Burke giving the two fingers as he was led away to serve a comfortable few months in Arbour Hill with all the comforts of home?

flutered · 30-06-2012 11:10pm

she should have checked to to see if they have a tv licence, if not then they are entitled to 14 days in the joy.

rodento · 01-07-2012 12:06pm

This is just plain shocking:eek:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2167136/Sensational-film-reveals-Quinn-family-trying-deal-Kiev-cash-Ireland-court-froze-assets.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2167105/FBI-translation-experts--verified-Kiev-footage.html

ferike1 · 01-07-2012 12:21pm

That is mental.

It's simple though. One rule for the rich, one for the rest of us. Banana Republic at its finest.

Laminations · 01-07-2012 1:34pm

rodento wrote: »

This is just plain shocking:eek:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2167136/Sensational-film-reveals-Quinn-family-trying-deal-Kiev-cash-Ireland-court-froze-assets.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2167105/FBI-translation-experts--verified-Kiev-footage.html

Wow. What's the usual sentence for purgery? Well if you're rich probably just 3 weeks to think about it.

At this stage the family home and joint accounts should not be exempt. This is a family wide attempt to frustrate the bank and mislead the court. They should be rehoused in a modest house in a council estate which then gets protection as the family home. Blatant disregard for Irish taxpayers and the rule of law.

Einhard · 01-07-2012 2:59pm

I think the Quinns should go to jail for their actions. However, I alss want the assets that they have sought to squirrel away retrieved for the taxpayer. As far as I understand, the process of hiding the money was quite complex, and I don;t think it's feasible that the Quinns would set about undoing that process from a prison cell. I think it was a good move by the judge, and hopefully once the process is reversed and the money recouped, they will face more serious sanction.

Mr.Micro · 01-07-2012 3:14pm

Einhard wrote: »

I think the Quinns should go to jail for their actions. However, I alss want the assets that they have sought to squirrel away retrieved for the taxpayer. As far as I understand, the process of hiding the money was quite complex, and I don;t think it's feasible that the Quinns would set about undoing that process from a prison cell. I think it was a good move by the judge, and hopefully once the process is reversed and the money recouped, they will face more serious sanction.

The trouble with that is that I fear no real assets will ever be recovered from the Quinns. In three weeks time I will bet that little will have been achieved in any of the orders. The brazen Quinns will carry on as before, feeling hard done by and 2 fingers to the taxpayer and everyone else.

ArmaniJeanss · 01-07-2012 3:22pm

Einhard wrote: »

I think the Quinns should go to jail for their actions. However, I alss want the assets that they have sought to squirrel away retrieved for the taxpayer. As far as I understand, the process of hiding the money was quite complex, and I don;t think it's feasible that the Quinns would set about undoing that process from a prison cell. I think it was a good move by the judge, and hopefully once the process is reversed and the money recouped, they will face more serious sanction.

For me a good alternative would have been this weekend in jail, released Monday morning with an appearance before Justice Dunne at 9.30AM.
At which stage she repeats the 3 week deadline.

It might have helped focus their minds on the task.

bmaxi · 01-07-2012 4:57pm

Put them in jail until such time as they purge their contempt, however long that may take. I thought that was normal practice anyway.

christmas2012 · 01-07-2012 5:00pm

I suppose not if you have money and connections..

AlekSmart · 01-07-2012 5:15pm

rodento wrote: »

This is just plain shocking:eek:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2167136/Sensational-film-reveals-Quinn-family-trying-deal-Kiev-cash-Ireland-court-froze-assets.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2167105/FBI-translation-experts--verified-Kiev-footage.html

Jeepers,this sure does give Ms Justice Dunne a bit of a bone to chew on whilst she wonders where next to go with the Quinn case.....?

Although,I would equally expect the redoubtable Bill Shipsey SC to mount a strong rebuttal of this tabletop footage !

rodento · 07-07-2012 1:19pm

Interesting development in that Rossa quits sean's legal team and video tapes to be used in evidence

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/blow-to-sean-quinn-case-as-key-lawyer-rossa-quits-3161065.html

Mr.Micro · 07-07-2012 3:45pm

rodento wrote: »

Interesting development in that Rossa quits sean's legal team and video tapes to be used in evidence

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/blow-to-sean-quinn-case-as-key-lawyer-rossa-quits-3161065.html

Maybe Fanning wants to keep his reputation intact and not be sullied by association with the Quinns. of course it does not help they keeping the video footage from him and he trying to defend the sharks.

Laminations · 07-07-2012 9:33pm

How does a bankrupt have 400,000 to spend on legal teams? How is he allowed access to money which is essentially owed to other people (the state and banks). Why isn't he instead on free legal aid like other plebs with no money?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0707/1224319600590.html

THE FORMER Anglo Irish Bank has agreed that freezing orders on the accounts of members of the family of bankrupt businessman Seán Quinn can be varied to allow €430,000 be paid to meet the family’s legal fees for the period May to July

If a person owed me money for a job done and they went bankrupt I'd be lucky to see a penny, his solicitors and barristers don't seem to be getting stung for the bill.

bmaxi · 07-07-2012 10:18pm

Laminations wrote: »

How does a bankrupt have 400,000 to spend on legal teams? How is he allowed access to money which is essentially owed to other people (the state and banks). Why isn't he instead on free legal aid like other plebs with no money?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0707/1224319600590.html

If a person owed me money for a job done and they went bankrupt I'd be lucky to see a penny, his solicitors and barristers don't seem to be getting stung for the bill.

Open to correction but I think free legal aid is only granted in criminal cases. Maybe his legal team are working pro bono. What are friends for?

christmas2012 · 07-07-2012 10:21pm

It comes down to this: hes got the money and either way hes got the contacts,so in the irish justice system hes off..

Laminations · 07-07-2012 10:24pm

bmaxi wrote: »

Open to correction but I think free legal aid is only granted in criminal cases. Maybe his legal team are working pro bono. What are friends for?

The bill from May to July is 430,000 euro so not pro bono. The accounts were frozen as the money is in dispute, the Quinns owe the state millions (if not the full 2.8 billion). Why should they be allowed dip into this money to pay for high class legal defence? No chance of legal eagles taking a haircut on their bills.

Laminations · 07-07-2012 10:25pm

christmas2012 wrote: »

It comes down to this: hes got the money and either way hes got the contacts,so in the irish justice system hes off..

He is supposed to be bankrupt and in debt to the tune of millions due to personal and family guarantees.

goose2005 · 07-07-2012 11:48pm

Nodin wrote: »

Six years, despite having paid back over half the monies owed and expressing remorse, I might add. The amount evaded was 1.4 million Euro. The quinns were moving hundreds of millions, owe a minimum of 455 million and possibly up to 2.8 billion and haven't even acknowledged wrongdoing.

€1,400,000 is an enormous quantity of money to steal. There are people in prison now for stealing much tinier sums. I know of a bench warrant being issued over a €5 shoplifting case.

christmas2012 · 07-07-2012 11:54pm

Laminations wrote: »

He is supposed to be bankrupt and in debt to the tune of millions due to personal and family guarantees.

okay but hes still got contacts in high places im sure the people(usually high ranking lawyers) who got him off got some money out of it..

maybe he has some assets somewhere he can turn into funds and give to them for getting him off..

ferike1 · 08-07-2012 9:00am

Can that secret video be used in court? Is it admissible evidence?

Mr.Micro · 08-07-2012 12:43pm

bmaxi wrote: »

Open to correction but I think free legal aid is only granted in criminal cases. Maybe his legal team are working pro bono. What are friends for?

One would think that they should get someone cheaper, but no, only the best that taxpayers can afford. It is not free legal aid but it might as well be, since it is coming out of monies that should be going to pay the taxpayer. A person on legal aid would not get a much choice about counsel, let alone engage the most expensive, the irony.

K-9 · 08-07-2012 8:17pm

ferike1 wrote: »

Can that secret video be used in court? Is it admissible evidence?

The IBRC legal team submitted it to court so we'll see.

Laminations · 20-07-2012 12:20pm

According to news reports the video will be played in court.

Looks like they haven't cooperated and instead used the time to mount an appeal.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/quinn-family-failing-to-comply-with-court-orders-say-bank-lawyers-559990.html

This I don't understand

Senior Counsel Paul Gallagher says the businessmen appear to have adopted the position of trying to keep their assets, even if they have to spend time in jail.

Time in jail?
It should be an indefinite stint in jail, remaining there until they purge their contempt (i.e. cooperate).

Are they under the impression that they do a short spell in jail and get to keep the 500 million? Who gave them that impression? Will contempt work differently for the Quinns?

Also nice to see Peter Quinns respect for the courts. He didn't turn up this morning and rang in 'sick' 10 minutes after proceedings began. Left a voicemail on his legal teams phone.

Mr.Micro · 20-07-2012 12:33pm

Mr.Micro wrote: »

The trouble with that is that I fear no real assets will ever be recovered from the Quinns. In three weeks time I will bet that little will have been achieved in any of the orders. The brazen Quinns will carry on as before, feeling hard done by and 2 fingers to the taxpayer and everyone else.

My post of July 1st 2012. Looks like my prediction was right. What will the Judge do now?..... the man in the Street knew they would not conform. I am sure they will be given another chance and more privilege.

padraig.od · 20-07-2012 12:36pm

Laminations wrote: »

According to news reports the video will be played in court.

Looks like they haven't cooperated and instead used the time to mount an appeal.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/quinn-family-failing-to-comply-with-court-orders-say-bank-lawyers-559990.html

This I don't understand

Time in jail?
It should be an indefinite stint in jail, remaining there until they purge their contempt (i.e. cooperate).

Are they under the impression that they do a short spell in jail and get to keep the 500 million? Who gave them that impression? Will contempt work differently for the Quinns?

Also nice to see Peter Quinns respect for the courts. He didn't turn up this morning and rang in 'sick' 10 minutes after proceedings began. Left a voicemail on his legal teams phone.

Arrest warrant issued for Peter Quinn now

Laminations · 20-07-2012 12:42pm

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0720/quinns-aib-ibrc.html

IBRC has asked the court to consider sending Seán Quinn Jnr and Peter Darragh Quinn to jail for contempt while leaving Seán Quinn free to comply with court orders

Good idea. Or allow them all work 9-5 Monday to Friday and return to jail for evenings and weekends

Mr.Micro · 20-07-2012 12:48pm

Laminations wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0720/quinns-aib-ibrc.html

Good idea. Or allow them all work 9-5 Monday to Friday and return to jail for evenings and weekends

Its all a sham IMO. They have no intention of ever releasing the €500 million assets, let alone paying the €3 Billion back. Their legal fees are coming out of monies that should be going to the taxpayer.

20-07-2012 3:38pm

Quinn Junior and Peter the Nephew have just got a minimum 3 months in jail. The Father (or Godfather) has been spared for the moment.

Every asset they(the Quinns Sons and Daughters) hold in the Country, Houses, cars, etc should be seized this weekend. Move them into a council estate untill they return the taxpayers money that they have defrauded. Or let there red neck supporters make up the difference.

Mr.Micro · 20-07-2012 3:42pm

Peter Darragh Quinn, Seán Quinn Jnr to be jailed for three months over contempt.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0720/quinns-aib-ibrc.html

2 toadies to cool their heels and reflect, leaving Mr. Quinn, Toad like, to carry on what he has been doing all along, keeping the assets out of reach.

Q_Ball · 20-07-2012 3:49pm

What are the chances of them doing the three months? Surely, as was mentioned earlier, it should be indefinite.

Alan_P · 20-07-2012 4:35pm

Q_Ball wrote: »

What are the chances of them doing the three months? Surely, as was mentioned earlier, it should be indefinite.

It's until they purge their contempt, and a minimum of 3 months. If they purge their contempt today, they get out in October. If they never purge their contempt, they die in jail.

AlekSmart · 20-07-2012 5:50pm

Alan_P wrote: »

It's until they purge their contempt, and a minimum of 3 months. If they purge their contempt today, they get out in October. If they never purge their contempt, they die in jail.

Alan_P,thats the theory behind it,but I'm quite confident the Quinn Legal Teams will have more than enough acumen to pull the threads on this.....Perhaps a night in a suitable open prison will suffice ??

Alan_P · 20-07-2012 6:23pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

Alan_P,thats the theory behind it,but I'm quite confident the Quinn Legal Teams will have more than enough acumen to pull the threads on this.....Perhaps a night in a suitable open prison will suffice ??

Well the only thing that can release them now is an order of the Supreme Court.

It's not sitting till Monday, and is very unlikely to intervene anyway.

And as for the acumen of the Quinn's legal team :- explain that to their client, who's currently in Mountjoy being versed in the mysteries of slopping out.

minidazzler · 20-07-2012 7:02pm

Should have been 6 Months or more IMO.

Maybe (just maybe...) this might give them a kick in the arse and show them that Judge Dunne is serious.
Just shows what greed and arrogance can do to someone that they'd go to jail rather than take the opportunities given to them. Hopefully this is just the beginning and if Daddy doesn't co-operate then he gets a serious whack.

No TR and no appeal on contempt either other than to go back to the original Judge or the Supreme Court. Highly unlikely that they'll get involved though.

usernamegoes · 20-07-2012 8:02pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

Alan_P,thats the theory behind it,but I'm quite confident the Quinn Legal Teams will have more than enough acumen to pull the threads on this.....Perhaps a night in a suitable open prison will suffice ??

Didn't Dunne J hold that they could get out of prison any time by purging there contempt before any HC judge?

Dirk Gently · 20-07-2012 8:47pm

where are they carrying out the sentence?

and what does purging their contempt consist of in this case. Is it simply a statement or does it require completion of an action related to the case.

galway2007 · 20-07-2012 9:16pm

Laminations wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0720/quinns-aib-ibrc.html

Good idea. Or allow them all work 9-5 Monday to Friday and return to jail for evenings and weekends

I think this is wrong to jail him
like I know he did wrong but look at all he has lost such as Quinn insurance and Quinn life but yet there are scum bags of bankers and builders in every town that have taken hundreds of millions and yet none of them are in jail or on the street
Sean Quinn got off his ass, created load of companies, employed thousands of people and paid billions in tax over the years but those scum bags of builders came out of nowhere during the boom and destroyed this country and have not being punished.

Sean Quinn avoids jail

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