Transport planning

luckat · 09-05-2008 7:35am #1

Sorry, posted this in Dublin City, should have been here - mods, please deal with it if you'd be so kind.

http://www.vtpi.org/tdm/tdm112.htm

Plan from Victoria Transport Policy Institute's online encyclopaedia on how to manage transport in a congested city.

Sample quote on how to get people to take buses, for instance:

Description

Public Transit Encouragement includes various strategies that give discretionary travelers (those who have the option of driving) reasons to choose transit. These include:

· Improve Transit Service, including more service, faster service and more comfortable service.

· Reduce fares and offer discounts (such as lower rates for off-peak travel times, or for certain groups).

· More convenient fare structures and Payment Systems using electronic “smart cards.”

· Commute Trip Reduction programs, Commuter Financial Incentives, and other TDM Programs that encourage use of alternative transportation modes.

· Improve rider information and Marketing programs.

· Park & Ride facilities and promotion programs (Rodier and Shaheen, 2006).

· Create a Multi-Modal Access Guide, which includes maps, schedules, contact numbers, and other information on how to reach a particular destination by public transit.

· Parking and Road pricing can provide financial incentives for transit use (Small, 2005).

(A bunch of links in there if you go to the original piece.)

gjim · 09-05-2008 9:14am

Dublin does not have a problem attracting people to public transport. Trains, trams and buses are all packed to bursting at many times during the day. Dublin's problem is that is does not have enough public transport capacity - even in it's current state. The problem is the SUPPLY of capacity not the DEMAND for public transport. I really don't see what stoking up the latter would achieve.

RadioCity · 09-05-2008 10:55am

More convenient fare structures and Payment Systems using electronic “smart cards.”

The sooner they remove those paper social welfare passes the better. There is no reason why they couldnt begin a process now of replacing them with smart cards.

AlekSmart · 09-05-2008 12:08pm

Both radiocity and gjim raise pertinent points re our current situation.
To address RadioCity`s first,the Dept of Social and Family Affairs Free Travel pass has long been a wide open door for fraudulent use.

However,as long as the entire thing was contained within the umbrella of the CIE group operations there was little impetus to address the situation.

The real sea-change came with the extension of the DFSA entitlements into Northern Ireland.

it rapidly became apparent that the joint Northern Ireland Office/Translink operation were nowhere near as amenable to "rough estimates" of useage patterns or of "general trend" recording by individual drivers.
No Sir..these boys wanted to know EXACTLY what they were getting involved with,how many entitlements,what number of journeys,origin and destination information and all to be electronically encoded too.

Now this insistence on accountability resulted in a delay and not a little dilution of Seamus Brennans original Full Free Travel availability throughout Ireland.
What we now have is a substantially restricted scheme involving ONLY Old Age recipients and ONLY if these people apply for a Translink Smart Card which involves submitting details to an entity outside the Republic....not an option for many people of qualifying age !!

The situation "Down South" remains fraught with inter departmental rivalry and traditional small mindedness.
For example the DFSA only came on-board the Integrated Ticketing programme at the last minute and this decision of itself has delayed things even further as the massive DFSA database has to be processed in order to arrive at some form of Electronic Card issue protocol.

All because the relevant Departments had their "Own Territory" to protect and nobody to effectively manage anything !! :mad:

As for gjims point regarding loading levels.
The Dail committee on Transport is so far the ONLY official body to focus directly on the need to vastly improve OFF-PEAK Bus schedules.
I am unaware of any other body that even bothered to widen their study brief beyond the morning/evening peak,which in Dublin terms has long since become meaningless.
Any Busdriver could have told the Department Officials that but getting acces to these hallowed folks is well nigh impossible.

One of the benefits of improved OFF PEAK services is that they will serve to broaden the actual travel envelope so reducing the pressure on the currently overloaded peak journeys.

Quite often we see travellers crowding a particular departure only because that is the final one before a masive gap as the morning peak drivers return to depots etc.
The key is to maintain a far better frequency ALL DAY so that this rush is no longer required and that is EXACTLY what the Dail Committee was focusing upon.

What surprised me was the somewhat stark lack of appreciation which the Chairman recieved from Planners and Operators,Public AND Private as he attempted to divine what plans existed for these improvements.....the answer appeared to be NONE !!

:eek:

luckat · 09-05-2008 2:12pm

"Down south"? In Cork? What's the problem there?

I think there are going to be electronic cards soon - on a lot of buses an extra box has appeared above the paper ticket stamper at the door.

AlekSmart · 09-05-2008 2:33pm

Apologies to those in Dixie....I was referring to the land mass this side of Butlins.....:D

The Bus Atha Cliath system is already under operational trial with annual tickets and staff passes capable of being read.

Many buses from Summerhill Garage are already fitted with the remote reader above the Mag Card Validator.
It should be noted that there is ALSO a scanning pad built into the Drivers Machine which provides two channels of validation when required.

However what is missing from the current scheme is the much needed Flat-Fare regeime or a massively simplified fare system to get maximum efficiency from the digital world.

My understanding is that the Dept of Transport show little sign of allowing a robust marketing programme to encourage digital conversion.

One good idea put forward but rejected,was for a flat on-bus deduction of €1.70 to be made via the terminal UNLESS the passenger requested a lower fare eg :€1.05.
The proposal was that these passengers would approach the DRIVERS machine and request the lower fare whilst holding their card on the Machine Reader.
The Driver would then press the appropriate fare button which would debit the card accordingly.
The beauty of this proposal would be to allow those who did not require lower fares to simple pass on by and use the remote reader whilst allowing the current Change-Ticket recipients to maintain their position without the entire change pahlavah !

In the absence of a Flat Fare system this was the best option I feel but the Department were Not convinced and so we will have to endure some form of if,but,maybe "Interim" cash/MCV/Smart Card introduction....essentially a typical bit of Irish prevarication and indecisivness !!

Oh well perhaps we will recruit some ex Lord Mayors of London to advise us !!! :eek:

dmeehan · 09-05-2008 4:04pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

the Dept of Social and Family Affairs Free Travel pass has long been a wide open door for fraudulent use.

countless times i have been on a bus and an OAP shows the driver her handbag and says "I have a pass"

there is no way the drivers would ever have let me on if I'd shown them my wallet and said I have a ticket

luckat · 11-05-2008 1:02pm

Problems with the buses: they're not

a) reliable
b) reasonably priced
c) reasonably scheduled

Take the airport: I drove there yesterday and used the long-term QuickPark. Cost: €7.50.

I'd much sooner get on the 16A, which practically passes my door. But

a) I couldn't trust the bus to arrive on schedule
c) it doesn't arrive at the airport until long past the time even 8am flights close their boarding gates
b) the alternative is that I get a taxi into town (or cycle, but I'm not going to do that with a 12-hour London day in front of me), get the Aircoach to the airport, and get the 16A home at night - cost: about €17.

As for flat fares, the best flat fare would be a euro - with perhaps a free trip if you're bringing kids to or from school.

The wealthy young lads who largely populate this forum will harrumph at such a price, but a woman who's taking three kids to schools and then getting herself to work will find it a heck of a lot cheaper to drive than to take a bus at the moment, not to mention more convenient.

The Republic of Ireland is Dixie? Hmm, would have thought Dixie-like attitudes were more in use north of the border

HydeRoad · 11-05-2008 3:57pm

I would simplify fares even further.

I would have a flat euro or two euro fare.

I would ELIMINATE the child fare altogether. An adult buys a can of coke. A child buys a can of coke. Same charge, regardless what age you are.

However, I WOULD perhaps admit one ACCOMPANIED child under 16 FREE OF CHARGE.

Therefore a family with two adults could bring two children for free. And large groups of underage travelling in or out of town without adults would pay adult fare like everyone else. No arguments about looking older than 16, etc. I would probably restrict the free carriage of children to the hours of 10am to 4pm. There are difficulties. It would merit discussion.

I would of course, retain the SCHOOL fare for dedicated school trips, and how that would be administered is up for discussion. Perhaps a smart card paid for and administrated through the school, with a predetermined number of standard adult flat fare journeys, but charged at a substantial school rate discount. A school going child would then have a prepaid card with a specific number of journeys to cover the school term, and when they were used up, regardless of what for, they would pay adult fare like everyone else.

Alek, what say you?

KC61 · 12-05-2008 9:03am

luckat wrote: »

Problems with the buses: they're not

a) reliable
b) reasonably priced
c) reasonably scheduled

Take the airport: I drove there yesterday and used the long-term QuickPark. Cost: €7.50.

I'd much sooner get on the 16A, which practically passes my door. But

a) I couldn't trust the bus to arrive on schedule
c) it doesn't arrive at the airport until long past the time even 8am flights close their boarding gates
b) the alternative is that I get a taxi into town (or cycle, but I'm not going to do that with a 12-hour London day in front of me), get the Aircoach to the airport, and get the 16A home at night - cost: about €17.

As for flat fares, the best flat fare would be a euro - with perhaps a free trip if you're bringing kids to or from school.

The wealthy young lads who largely populate this forum will harrumph at such a price, but a woman who's taking three kids to schools and then getting herself to work will find it a heck of a lot cheaper to drive than to take a bus at the moment, not to mention more convenient.

The Republic of Ireland is Dixie? Hmm, would have thought Dixie-like attitudes were more in use north of the border

It is possible to make an 8am flight using Dublin Bus from the Rathfarnham QBC, as I have done so on several occasions, provided you are not checking in luggage:
1) Buy a 1-day rambler for EUR 6 (includes Airlink)
2) Check-in online
3) Take the 0620 16 - Arrives in O'Connell Street for 0645/0650
4) Catch the 747 to the Airport - usually takes no more than 20 minutes (often there in 15), getting there for 0710
5) Straight through security and to the gate.

Early morning buses are in general very reliable, and the Airlink is very quick indeed.

AlekSmart · 12-05-2008 10:54pm

Yes indeed,I would be generally in favour of Hyde Road`s Busfare suggestions

Sadly however,I cannot see the "Authorities" departing much from the "long-standing" arrangements currently in place.

These arrangements are sufficiently byzantine to have "something for everybody" with the usual result that there is little REAL benefit for anybody,particularly those who take a little personal responsibility and buy pre-paid tickets.

Thus what we are left with is a system which actively conspires AGAINST non-cash payers whilst offering the root-in-the baggers an impressive array of means to frustrate smart-alek`s with their oul cards .... :mad:

A major part of the problem lies with the fact that Bus Atha Cliath operates a two-tier revenue stream whereby the On-Bus Cash transaction is tightly regulated by the Department of Transport,whilst the Off-Bus Ticket Sales is largely left to the company`s own commercial dept to operate.

In the (all too) recent past the practice of discounting pre-paid tickets ended as the cash-strapped company moved top maximize revenue after various Cash Fare revisions were nixed by a Dept ever keen to keep the politically sensitive cost-of living indices down.

Bus Atha Cliath currently charges a range of cash-fares which may well be the cheapest of the better known EU Capitals.
Plus if commuters are prepared to do their research,there are VERY cost effective fares available (The Travel-90 Value Pack represents a real steal if used to it`s maximum) as does the One Day Rambler.
KC61`s Airport Commute suggestions bear witness to an alternative which WILL work if a little application si shown towards it !

luckat · 13-05-2008 8:50pm

Thanks, K, I'll try taking the 16 and using the €6 one-day Rambler on my next trip Londonwards or Pariswards. I didn't realise that you could use this on the 747.

AlekSmart, I'm with you on the child fares to some extent - a child takes up the same size seat as an adult. However, the idea that *two* parents are going to accompany two children to school is kind of unlikely. That's almost invariably the mammy's job.

Transport planning

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