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John Waters - "We must seize Tricolour back from thugs"

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    #62
    MakeEmLaugh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,356 ✭✭✭MakeEmLaugh


    Mr Cumulonimbus wrote: »
    Just asking again what I asked you earlier on in the thread, why do you think Pearse may have besmirched the tricolour?

    I did not say without question that Pearse had besmirched the flag.

    But, given that 254 civilians died in the 1916 rising, and 466 people died in total (the most people that were ever killed in Northern Ireland's Troubles in a whole year was 467, in 1972), I certainly see how that argument could be made.


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    #63
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    MakeEmLaugh wrote: »
    Seth 'Vik' McFarlane volunteered to go on hunger strike first in 1980 and then again in 1981

    Seth McFarlane is the voice behind Family Guy's Peter Griffin. You're thinking of Brendan "Bik" McFarlane. You haven't a clue lad.


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    #64
    MakeEmLaugh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,356 ✭✭✭MakeEmLaugh


    FTA69 wrote: »
    Seth McFarlane is the voice behind Family Guy's Peter Griffin. You're thinking of Brendan "Bik" McFarlane. You haven't a clue lad.

    Admittedly, that was a silly mistake to make.

    However, it was nowhere near as silly as your assertion that, because I slightly muddled the forename of a man commonly identified with a sobriquet, I therefore "haven't got a clue".

    Was I wrong about anything else to do with McFarlane? Was I wrong about him volunteering for both the first and second hunger strikes in 1980 and 1981 respectively? Was I wrong about the leadership of the IRA declining this request? Was I wrong about his involvement in the vile murder of four innocent Protestants (plus a single UVF man) in the Bayardo Bar attack in 1975?

    You are clearly clutching at straws. In an attempt to refute fact after fact that I am presenting here, all you can do is pounce on a negligible grammatical error. Tell you what: you stick to remembering the names of IRA terrorists, I'll stick to remember the people they massacred, okay?


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    #65
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    MakeEmLaugh wrote: »
    Admittedly, that was a silly mistake to make.

    However, it was nowhere near as silly as your assertion that, because I slightly muddled the forename of a man commonly identified with a sobriquet, I therefore "haven't got a clue".

    Was I wrong about anything else to do with McFarlane? Was I wrong about him volunteering for both the first and second hunger strikes in 1980 and 1981 respectively? Was I wrong about the leadership of the IRA declining this request? Was I wrong about his involvement in the vile murder of four innocent Protestants (plus a single UVF man) in the Bayardo Bar attack in 1975?

    You are clearly clutching at straws. In an attempt to refute fact after fact that I am presenting here, all you can do is pounce on a negligible grammatical error. Tell you what: you stick to remembering the names of IRA terrorists, I'll stick to remember the people they massacred, okay?

    I'm sorry, but what point are you trying to make by picking out members of one side?


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    #66
    MakeEmLaugh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,356 ✭✭✭MakeEmLaugh


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    I'm sorry, but what point are you trying to make by picking out members of one side?

    I have never seen anyone on Boards.ie praising members of the Parachute Regiment on Bloody Sunday.

    I have never seen anyone Boards.ie praising members of the UVF.

    I have, however, on many occasions, seen people praising the likes of Francis Hughes and Brendan McFarlane. I find this repulsive, and if these men were, in fact, heroic freedom fighters, then my listing of the crimes in which they were involved should not detract from that status.


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    #67
    Mr Cumulonimbus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭Mr Cumulonimbus


    MakeEmLaugh wrote: »
    I did not say without question that Pearse had besmirched the flag.

    But, given that 254 civilians died in the 1916 rising, and 466 people died in total (the most people that were ever killed in Northern Ireland's Troubles in a whole year was 467, in 1972), I certainly see how that argument could be made.

    And a fairly thin argument at that. As I also said earlier, the tricolour could always have been seen as a symbol of physical force nationalism from the Young Ireland days.

    Interesting article here on its origins. After 1848 and up to 1916, the tricolour wasn't popularly considered as representative of the Irish Nation. The flag with the harp on a green background mainly fulfilled that role.

    You have listed the casualty figures for the Easter Rising. Who was responsible for most of them, the insurgents actions or the British reaction to them? Remember British artillery inflicted widespread damage on central Dublin.


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    #68
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    MakeEmLaugh wrote: »
    I have never seen anyone on Boards.ie praising members of the Parachute Regiment on Bloody Sunday.

    I have never seen anyone Boards.ie praising members of the UVF.

    I have, however, on many occasions, seen people praising the likes of Francis Hughes and Brendan McFarlane. I find this repulsive, and if these men were, in fact, heroic freedom fighters, then my listing of the crimes in which they were involved should not detract from that status.

    That is your reason, what is your point?
    I don't see anybody praising them on this thread.


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    #69
    MakeEmLaugh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,356 ✭✭✭MakeEmLaugh


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    That is your reason, what is your point?
    I don't see anybody praising them on this thread.

    According to the Politics home page, this thread has been viewed more than 2,500 times. Are you telling not one person who has viewed it may have been sympathetic to Francis Hughes and his actions?

    Let me ask you this; do you regard Francis Hughes as a murderer?


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    #70
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    MakeEmLaugh wrote: »
    According to the Politics home page, this thread has been viewed more than 2,500 times. Are you telling not one person who has viewed it may have been sympathetic to Francis Hughes and his actions?

    Let me ask you this; do you regard Francis Hughes as a murderer?

    So you have appointed yourself as a one-sided Oracle? :rolleyes:


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    #71
    MakeEmLaugh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,356 ✭✭✭MakeEmLaugh


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    So you have appointed yourself as a one-sided Oracle? :rolleyes:

    That's right. Don't bother answering the question. Only people who can back up what they say should answer questions, right? ;)


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    #72
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    MakeEmLaugh wrote: »
    That's right. Don't bother answering the question. Only people who can back up what they say should answer questions, right? ;)

    I'll answer questions that have relevance to the thread, if that is alright with you. What labels I apply have nothing to do with the subject at hand, as do your onesided rants.


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    #73
    MakeEmLaugh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,356 ✭✭✭MakeEmLaugh


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    I'll answer questions that have relevance to the thread, if that is alright with you. What labels I apply have nothing to do with the subject at hand, as do your onesided rants.

    The thread, which I started, is about an article in which John Waters writes

    "For all the nastiness of the PIRA and INLA organisations to which men such as Bobby Sands and Patsy O’Hara belonged, there was something noble and redemptive about the conviction and sacrifice of these men.

    Their actions were born of an idealism that today has become inaccessible in our culture, either through subjective impulse or objective understanding."

    Therefore, it is perfectly relevant to ask whether you regard hunger strikers like Francis Hughes, or attempted hunger strikers like Brendan McFarlane, as possessing something "noble and redemptive", or whether, like me, you regard these men as murderers.

    I haven't dodged a single question posed to me in this thread, and I regard those who do so as intellectually-weak cowards.


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    #74
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    MakeEmLaugh wrote: »
    Therefore, it is perfectly relevant to ask whether you regard hunger strikers like Francis Hughes, or attempted hunger strikers like Brendan McFarlane, as possessing something "noble and redemptive", or whether, like me, you regard these men as murderers.

    It isn't relevant, I couldn't care less what you think. It is relevent to state what you think of John Waters and his self serving BS.
    For the record, I have always said that every life lost was regretable. But it happened, your onesided labelling isn't going to bring anybody back, and Waters elevating McFarlane and Hughes to 'noble' just so he can have a go at current RIRA members is what it is...bull**** self serving revisionism. He just another in a long line of deniers who attempted to do the same thing with the men and women of the IRA.


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    #75
    SaoriseBiker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 297 ✭✭SaoriseBiker


    MakeEmLaugh wrote: »
    According to the Politics home page, this thread has been viewed more than 2,500 times. Are you telling not one person who has viewed it may have been sympathetic to Francis Hughes and his actions?

    Let me ask you this; do you regard Francis Hughes as a murderer?
    Francis Hughes, greatest Irish man who ever took up a gun surpassing even Tom Barry, Dan Breen, Vinny Byrne etc


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    #76
    SaoriseBiker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 297 ✭✭SaoriseBiker


    MakeEmLaugh wrote: »
    I did not say without question that Pearse had besmirched the flag.

    But, given that 254 civilians died in the 1916 rising, and 466 people died in total (the most people that were ever killed in Northern Ireland's Troubles in a whole year was 467, in 1972), I certainly see how that argument could be made.
    Hope the mods aren't thinking that I'm dragging this off topic but since you brought it up - most of the 254 civilians were killed by British shell fire from artillery and the gun boats positioned in the Liffey, and not rifle shot from either the IRA or British army.


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    #77
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    MakeEmLaugh wrote: »
    According to the Politics home page, this thread has been viewed more than 2,500 times. Are you telling not one person who has viewed it may have been sympathetic to Francis Hughes and his actions?

    Let me ask you this; do you regard Francis Hughes as a murderer?

    I can tell you now I don't.


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    #78
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

    Was I wrong about anything else to do with McFarlane?

    Well aside from the fact you confused him with a hilariously-animated stuffed bear who recently starred alongside Mark Wahlberg, then yes you're wrong in many of your assertions.

    Bik McFarlane, Francis Hughes and thousands of other men and women did indeed participate in an armed campaign in which innocent people lost their lives, often in unjustifiable circumstances. I don't think any Republican here will disagree with that. What we will disagree with though, is your assertion that men like Francis Hughes were simply braindead thugs who had some sort of nihilistic bloodthirst. The likes of Hughes (we'll dwell on him since you feel the need to single out individuals) found himself in the midst of a conflict that was not of his creation. He grew up in a context where he and his community were second-class citizens in a state which was exclusively created on the premise of Unionist dominance. The British state allowed this situation to continue and when the Unionist edifice began to crumble from the late 1960s onwards they sent in British troops to maintain it, even if that took shooting innocent people at demonstrations.

    The outbreak of the conflict in 1969 was simply another manifestation of a dispute that long, long preceeded the likes of Francis Hughes, namely that of a British claim over Ireland (or a part of it) and those who would contend that. The reason an armed conflict re-erupted in 1969 was due to a viciously sectarian system in the north and the British supporting that in order to secure the north of Ireland as a part of the union. Nothing more. Since the foundation of the northern state in 1920s it had sought to subjugate Nationalists economically and socially, and when they got too big for their boots, militarily. They did this via clandestine organisations such as the UVF, invasion and destruction of Catholic areas by mobs as well as para-state bodies such as the B Specials and your beloved UDR. Is it any wonder the likes of Hughes grew up (along with thousands of his generation) to participate in an armed conflict.

    For what it's worth he became an active Republican after receiving a savage beating at a border roadblock from the British Army. If you're going to take a high-and-mighty view of the likes of Hughes, at least attempt to analyse the conditions from which he emerged.


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    #79
    MakeEmLaugh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,356 ✭✭✭MakeEmLaugh


    Nodin wrote: »
    I can tell you now I don't.

    Presumably you don't class the UVF men who shot Gerard Casey in his home in 1989 as murderers, then?

    After all, he - a Provisional IRA member - was considered a 'legitimate target' by loyalists, just as William Gordon - an RUC man - was considered a 'legitimate target' by Francis Hughes, when he planted a bomb under his car.

    Personally, I would regard the UVF as murderers, but hey, I guess my views are antiquated and irrelevant, right?


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    #80
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    MakeEmLaugh wrote: »
    Presumably you don't class the UVF men who shot Gerard Casey in his home in 1989 as murderers, then?

    After all, he - a Provisional IRA member - was considered a 'legitimate target' by loyalists, just as William Gordon - an RUC man - was considered a 'legitimate target' by Francis Hughes, when he planted a bomb under his car.

    Personally, I would regard the UVF as murderers, but hey, I guess my views are antiquated and irrelevant, right?

    And so what?
    What difference will your condemnation make, what difference has it ever made?
    Everyone on the island is responsible in some way for what happened and for what is now happening, by virtue of the fact that we as a people have not found a solution for all the people.


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    #81
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    And so what?
    What difference will your condemnation make, what difference has it ever made?
    Everyone on the island is responsible in some way for what happened and for what is now happening, by virtue of the fact that we as a people have not found a solution for all the people.


    What you ask for is impossible. A solution which makes everyone happy all of the time. And then because 'we' haven't come up with such a solution, the violence is somehow legitimised in your eyes.

    At best armed struggle is a necessary evil, one which should not be celebrated or lionised but instead remembered and regretted especially if innocent people are injured or die. At worst it is a cover for common criminality, it is an unnecessary evil and it's advocates should not be compromised with.


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    #82
    Shea O'Meara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 960 ✭✭✭Shea O'Meara


    MakeEmLaugh wrote: »
    This article by John Waters was taken from today's Irish Times:



    What are people's thoughts?

    "We must seize Tricolour back from thugs", to which 'we' is he referring?
    By who's moral compass do we judge others to be deemed worthy to wave 'our' flag?
    DeValera; 1916 leader, President, Taoiseach, treasonous criminal and traitor to the Irish people?
    Freedom fighter & Terrorist, (depending on who you asked at the time) Michael Collins?
    The upper middle classes who piss upon the heads of the working class tax payer?
    The media darlings, such as Waters, who are happy to let the Civil Servants and Unemployed take the brunt of weight of a problem caused by crooked bankers, inept politicians and private investors too capitalist to fail?
    The flag represents all the people of our 32 counties equally. It's for the laws as they stand at the time to decide the current popular moral compass. Trying to claim those you disagree with are less Irish than you is an impossibility and a nonsense.


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    #83
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    Shea O'Meara wrote: »
    "We must seize Tricolour back from thugs", to which 'we' is he referring?
    By who's moral compass do we judge others to be deemed worthy to wave 'our' flag?
    DeValera; 1916 leader, President, Taoiseach, treasonous criminal and traitor to the Irish people?
    Freedom fighter & Terrorist, (depending on who you asked at the time) Michael Collins?
    The upper middle classes who piss upon the heads of the working class tax payer?
    The media darlings, such as Waters, who are happy to let the Civil Servants and Unemployed take the brunt of weight of a problem caused by crooked bankers, inept politicians and private investors too capitalist to fail?
    The flag represents all the people of our 32 counties equally. It's for the laws as they stand at the time to decide the current popular moral compass. Trying to claim those you disagree with are less Irish than you is an impossibility and a nonsense.

    But lately we have seen convicted criminals draped in the flag of this country that they did nothing to better.


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    #84
    nice_cupotea
    Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭nice_cupotea


    MakeEmLaugh wrote: »
    I do not feel the need to "hide" under the cover of any article. I regard Francis Hughes as a murderer. I regard those who commemorate him as some kind of freedom fighter either clueless halfwits or, worse, apologists for criminal terrorism.

    This is merely one aspect of this article I selected. There are other talking points: whether the Tricolour can be reclaimed as an heroic symbol of the Irish nation, or whether it has been irreversibly besmirched by the likes of Ryan, Hughes or indeed Pearse.

    of course it has been besmirched by the very fact that it is used by an illegal organisation (or several) as their chosen flag.

    we should bite the bullet and change our flag. the illegals will continue to use the tricolour. problem solved


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    #85
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Laminations wrote: »
    What you ask for is impossible. A solution which makes everyone happy all of the time. And then because 'we' haven't come up with such a solution, the violence is somehow legitimised in your eyes.

    At best armed struggle is a necessary evil, one which should not be celebrated or lionised but instead remembered and regretted especially if innocent people are injured or die. At worst it is a cover for common criminality, it is an unnecessary evil and it's advocates should not be compromised with.

    The Chief Prosecutor arrives! :rolleyes:
    It doesn't MATTER if I legitimise it or not, it is HAPPENING and will continue to happen.
    The GFA was 'impossible' once, but it happened. They are making the same mistake again by dealing with it in the way they are. It won't quell it, nor will they appease those involved. It has already been proven that you cannot stop it, you have to negotiate.
    If your only solution is to imprison, supress or label, then you are the one turning a blind eye, you are the one encouraging it and that is worse than somebody legitimising it.


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    #86
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    It doesn't MATTER if I legitimise it or not

    Oh it does. People who tend to legitimise violence in such ways could rightly be labelled terrorist sympathisers.

    And the GFA is a democratic solution, and therefore it was always possible (different to probable). You want a solution which satisfies everyone, not just a majority, otherwise whoever is left is justified in violent dissent. There will always be people left out, people dissatisfied or disillusioned, the solution you want is impossible to achieve.


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    #87
    nice_cupotea
    Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭nice_cupotea


    [QUOTE=Shea O'Meara
    The flag represents all the people of our 32 counties equally. It's for the laws as they stand at the time to decide the current popular moral compass. Trying to claim those you disagree with are less Irish than you is an impossibility and a nonsense.[/QUOTE]

    This is nonsense. The tricolour does not represent six counties in Ulster. It does not represent the British people of those counties. The tricolour has been tainted by decades of images of it being used at widely and internationally publicised IRA funerals and so-called republican press conferences etc.

    Many people have no allegiance to it. Get rid - IMO


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    #88
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Laminations wrote: »
    Oh it does. People who tend to legitimise violence in such ways could rightly be labelled terrorist sympathisers.

    And the GFA is a democratic solution, and therefore it was always possible (different to probable). You want a solution which satisfies everyone, not just a majority, otherwise whoever is left is justified in violent dissent. There will always be people left out, people dissatisfied or disillusioned, the solution you want is impossible to achieve.

    Well then, put up with it. Because it isn't going away your way.


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    #89
    Shea O'Meara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 960 ✭✭✭Shea O'Meara


    Laminations wrote: »
    But lately we have seen convicted criminals draped in the flag of this country that they did nothing to better.

    Well I mean Haughey..
    He bettered himself and his and it could be strongly argued did a hell of a lot more damage than good...he was also a fraudster and received a full state funeral funded by the lowly taxpayer he scoffed at.
    As with DeValera...
    Bertie? Time will tell.

    My point is who has the moral high ground to say who can and cannot wave the flag? Seems to me criminals possibly played a greater role in the tradition of the Tricolour than you or I. Certainly in the foundation of the state, some for the people of Ireland others for themselves using patriotism as a guise.


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    #90
    Shea O'Meara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 960 ✭✭✭Shea O'Meara


    nice_cupotea wrote: »
    This is nonsense. The tricolour does not represent six counties in Ulster. It does not represent the British people of those counties. The tricolour has been tainted by decades of images of it being used at widely and internationally publicised IRA funerals and so-called republican press conferences etc.

    Many people have no allegiance to it. Get rid - IMO

    Yes the country is currently divided but as much as some confused Irish folk wave the British flag, others wave the Tricolour, as they are free to do.
    The Union Jack denotes invasion, genocide, and war crimes...go figure.


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    #91
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    Shea O'Meara wrote: »
    The Union Jack denotes invasion, genocide, and war crimes...go figure.
    Oh pass the flipping bucket.

    The tricolour going by your logic represents bombings, wanton civilian murder, Bloody Friday, Bloody Monday . . . bloody any day of the week, assassinations, punishment beatings and kneecappings, kidnapping, disappeared bodies etc etc. Yes, its an utterly daft idea to remove the Tricolour from the Republic of Ireland, despite its long-forgotten hypocritical theme, but boy does your post read like that of someone who just misses the 60s, 70s and 80s (were you even about then?? If so, how old?).

    And its the Union Flag, by the way. I'm not even British yet know that. The Union Jack is red with the Union Flag situated in top left quarter.


    Go figure.


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