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new political party?

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    #62
    celtictiger32
    Registered Users Posts: 2,488 ✭✭✭celtictiger32


    excuse my ignorance but what name would you put on person/party that had certain left wing views plus certain right wing?


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    #63
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    fianna saor wrote: »
    we need a party that has strong belief in our own country and not pander to the europhiles. we must be the only country where a show of patriotism is bludgeoned, we have listened to the mainstream political parties for too long i would even say this has given us an inferiority complex among our national peers
    Yes, what we really need is a delusional superiority complex. This will solve many of our problems, such as...uh...well...those problems you said there.


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    #64
    fianna saor
    Registered Users Posts: 166 ✭✭fianna saor


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    Yes, what we really need is a delusional superiority complex. This will solve many of our problems, such as...uh...well...those problems you said there.

    where in my post did i mention anything about a superiority complex or anything like it?


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    #65
    goose2005
    Registered Users Posts: 4,798 ✭✭✭goose2005


    BOHtox wrote: »
    50% more taxes? Jesus wept.
    The middle classes for instance already pay 41% on top rate of income tax, the USC, PRSI, a new household tax and a water charge. Added to that Capital gains tax, VAT, DIRT, Stamp Duty, Capital Acquisitions tax, excise duty, VRT, motor tax, an air travel tax.
    Am I missing some? probably so...
    What more taxes do you want? Who will be spending money if they are being taxed so much? we need to cut and reduce tax not increase spending and increase tax!
    Irish income taxes are low, and as yet there are no property taxes.

    810px-Income_Taxes_By_Country.svg.png

    That's why in the boom, people had endless money to squander on luxuries while schools, hospital and infrastructure lagged behind.
    Suryavarman wrote: »
    And in the 80's we had sky high taxes and we had a lost decade. Trying to find a correlation using only two data points is beyond ridiculous.

    It's beyond me how you could think that high taxes create jobs. Higher taxes mean that people will stop working past a certain point. High taxes mean the private sector has less money than the public sector, meaning a more inefficient and slower growing economy. High taxes will also cause more people to find ways around paying taxes meaning less revenue. Just look at Britain where they recently cut the 50% rate of tax back to 45% because it wasn't raising any revenue.

    Low taxes mean bad roads, bad rail, poor healthcare, bad Internet access, limited policing, increased crime, etc.: those things aren't good either.
    Sica wrote: »
    Left/Right ideological divides are largely irrelevant now. Most countries have seen traditional left/right divides melt away as everyone clambers in to the centre.

    Really? Have you missed the French/Greek elections?


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    #66
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,445 ✭✭✭fliball123


    goose2005 wrote: »
    Irish income taxes are low, and as yet there are no property taxes.

    810px-Income_Taxes_By_Country.svg.png

    That's why in the boom, people had endless money to squander on luxuries while schools, hospital and infrastructure lagged behind.



    Low taxes mean bad roads, bad rail, poor healthcare, bad Internet access, limited policing, increased crime, etc.: those things aren't good either.



    Really? Have you missed the French/Greek elections?

    that graph is from 2005??? am I missing something..Income tax has gone way up since then and the indirect taxes are killing us...compare a litre of petrol here to the US...we pay more than enough tax in this small country last count over 9k per man woman and child and thats not taking into account 1/2 a million unemployed not paying tax nearly a billion school kids not paying tax and those on the lower end of the tax scale who pay little or not tax...so nearly 50% of the population is tax exempt...So it goes to about 18k per man / woman a year..Thats a lot of tax to pay by any standard


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    #67
    BOHtox
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭BOHtox


    goose2005 wrote: »
    Irish income taxes are low, and as yet there are no property taxes.

    810px-Income_Taxes_By_Country.svg.png

    That's why in the boom, people had endless money to squander on luxuries while schools, hospital and infrastructure lagged behind.

    The graph is from 7 years ago. Not a chance I'm accepting that as a valid arguement!

    goose2005 wrote: »
    Low taxes mean bad roads, bad rail, poor healthcare, bad Internet access, limited policing, increased crime, etc.: those things aren't good either.



    Really? Have you missed the French/Greek elections?

    Wrong. Poorly run state monopolies are the reason we've bad healthhcare, rail etc.
    Privately run companies in health would lead to better services.
    See when the communications industry was opened to competition, same with the airline etc...


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    #68
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    I am constantly amazed at this revisionism that thr PDs somehow espoused all this stuff, yet Mary Harney was the minister responsible for the ridiculous expansion of he hse, and were neutral to say the least about increasing social welfare an the massive corruption in irish political life.

    Perhaps it is fair to say that there is a constituency out there who would vote for what the PDs claimed to believe in, rather than what they actually stood for. But most people see nothing different in the PDs over any other party. Others see them as worse. As such, any connection with the PDs past is not going to win any friends to such a new party.


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    #69
    Noobsaibot21
    Registered Users Posts: 140 ✭✭Noobsaibot21


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    Yes, what we really need is a delusional superiority complex. This will solve many of our problems, such as...uh...well...those problems you said there.

    A highly educated workforce, a beautiful country which is great craíc for tourists, (what should be) an investors paradise with a great corporate tax rate and Europe right on the door step, a tonne of high quality fishing waters (which we have stupidly given away).

    We have every right to feel superior for many things and we have a much better chance of getting through this than Greece or Portugal (and with significantly less pain if it were planned better than simply doing as the Germans say). Shame we're so badly managed. :(


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    #70
    Drumpot
    Registered Users Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    Ive been at odds for a long time as to whether or not that we need a new party . .

    The problem is not so much the parties, but the people in important positions in the parties, the tactics they will use to force their agenda, the self vested motives for pushing an agenda and the complete lack of principles/morals when it comes to deciding & applying that agenda.

    These people get into positions of power because the members of the party and indeed voters/electorate are not interested in national politics or how the country is run, they are only interested on the bottom line. Ironically being a local "fix me pothole" me feiner costs the individual and the country in the longer term as it trumps the importance for a long term, well thought out strategy for the country.

    Personally, I despise any party that fails to put the countries interest first and they all tick that box. They all have corrupted principles, that are accepted as "part and parcel of politics", that being "the interest of the party overrides the interest of the nation". . Populist rhetoric and bareface lies (broken promises) are passed off also as "part of politics". Lazy conformist Ignorance is rightly costing us all dearly . .

    The "roll over and have your belly rubbed" attitude of our electorate is whats really preventing any real progress or change in the political landscape. It would require a revolution of thinking and wouldnt require new parties if people started demanding more from their politicians (more national concerns as opposed to local ones) and if the people of the country started realising the overall, long term cost of voting in useless self serving politicians.

    I proposed to a friend that, had I the time (I work for myself and have two young sons so dont even have the luxury of much free time), I would consider trying to set up a completely independent, non profit, not salary paying institution/body thats designed to educate and encourage people to be more engaged in politics. I dont believe we cant change the lazy attitude in this country to politics (indeed I believe that people who think things will never change will only ever be the prophets of their own belief).

    People in this country have the power to shape how the country is run and whether or not its run on a long term community principle(based on the principle of shared prosperity and us all working together to get us back on track) or the "take whatever you can get" principle that we currently have (vested groups being catered for at the expense of others). We can work within the paramaters we have been set and can use bits of capitalism and socialism for a better community.

    Im all for a new way of trying to do politics, I fear that a new party would just be a haven for the usual carpetbaggers who jump to whichever ship has the best prospect. I also fear a new party would promise so much and deliver little if it didnt have people/leaders looking to also change how politics is run in Ireland (as opposed to just get itself into power by any means possible).

    I firmly believe that in most cases (capitalism, politics, commumism etc) the problem is seldom the ideal/system, but the people driving it. There is a complete lack of new ideas, people with the right kind of positive enthusiasm and most importantly a complete lack of real leaders (not just in Ireland) who are prepared to lead by example and capable of harnessing the confidence of their people.

    I could write more but imagine I lost most people at my first paragraph. . Sorry for the waffle . . ;)


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    #71
    boo3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 201 ✭✭boo3000


    I for one think there's a whole lot of truth in what Drumpot is saying. I would however, disagree that the problem is an apathetic electorate, rather that this country has lost faith in the very concept of public service.
    So many of the institutions which are supposed to be in place to serve a public interest/welfare/greater good have been exposed, or are perceived as hotbeds of cronyism/corruption or incompetence. I by no means limit this to government, this includes, banks, the church, the legal system/policeforce, the traditional public services, ngo's and probably the media also.
    I think this is the reason we haven't seen new parties, people feel the problem's are too deeply entrenched to be tackled or be solved by newcomers. I don't know how far this sense of despondency permeates the rest of the western world but i do think it's endemic in Ireland.
    I think that those in power are actually underestimating the suffering of a lot of the populace. While people may not widely be going hungry, i think that stress, suicide, depression, relationship break ups, and the pain of emigration are taking a huge toll. Most of this suffering is not public, and as such there's a sense of "let them eat cake" in the attitudes of those in power here.
    Like Drumpot i feel that Ireland needs radical change and i greatly hope that this does not take the form of a traditional far right or far left extremism.


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    #72
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    I would personally want the following from my ideal party
    1: Transparency. No shady deals, no secret policies - if you're going to do something, I as a voter have a right to know about it so I can judge whether or not to vote for you again.
    2: Whipless. Not much point in lobbying your TD on a national policy if he or she is bound by a whip to vote with the party regardless.
    3: What the people want first, ahead of what lobby groups and corporations want.

    Off the top of my head I can't think of much more, although I would also want a party which would completely and totally reform the current political system, perhaps to something like the "departmental democracy" concept I posted before. That can wait though. An honest, transparent and whipless party would be a great start.

    EDIT: Sorry it also goes without saying that I'd want them to either not make promises before the election or else honor them once they got in, unless there's a new reason (something that couldn't have been foreseen before election day) which makes them unfeasible.


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    #73
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    I should add one other thing, I'd want a party which would be tough on scandals and loophoples. that is, instead of saying "Sorry but technically what X person did wasn't illegal so there's nothing we can do", they would say "It wasn't illegal, so we will immediately draft legislation outlawing it to prevent it ever happening again".


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    #74
    boo3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 201 ✭✭boo3000


    hatrickpatrick i think your heart's clearly in the right place, i can't find your earlier posts on departmental democracy but i do think we need something more radical in this country, i think for anything really to happen a wholescale changing of the guard is required.


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    #75
    celtictiger32
    Registered Users Posts: 2,488 ✭✭✭celtictiger32


    boo3000 wrote: »
    hatrickpatrick i think your heart's clearly in the right place, i can't find your earlier posts on departmental democracy but i do think we need something more radical in this country, i think for anything really to happen a wholescale changing of the guard is required.

    definitely think something completely different is needed, also a total revision on our laws is neeeded and should be one of the first thing to do when a new crowd get in.

    just curious what people think of a theory... there is a certain party(im probably better off not naming them to preserve the thread) that proposed a kind of federal state, with houses in all four province and one main parliamentary house. leaving the particular party aside would this be an option?


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    #76
    boo3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 201 ✭✭boo3000


    possibly, i think we can pretty much all agree that local issues have too much of an influence on Irish politics, again tho I think the real issue is a lack of faith in the possibility of change.
    To use a sporting analogy (esp given that it's euro 2012 time!) it's never going to matter what tactics are used if the personnel aren't capable and by and large those to whom we depend, not just amongst politicians, aren't up for it. Where in some individual cases they might be, the public has no faith.
    Where this leaves us I don't know. I think a lot depends on how much suffering the Irish public is willing to take, or whether we are willing to depend on the unlikely emergence of an external force to correct the situation.


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    #77
    celtictiger32
    Registered Users Posts: 2,488 ✭✭✭celtictiger32


    boo3000 wrote: »
    possibly, i think we can pretty much all agree that local issues have too much of an influence on Irish politics, again tho I think the real issue is a lack of faith in the possibility of change.
    To use a sporting analogy (esp given that it's euro 2012 time!) it's never going to matter what tactics are used if the personnel aren't capable and by and large those to whom we depend, not just amongst politicians, aren't up for it. Where in some individual cases they might be, the public has no faith.
    Where this leaves us I don't know. I think a lot depends on how much suffering the Irish public is willing to take, or whether we are willing to depend on the unlikely emergence of an external force to correct the situation.

    what do you mean by an external source?


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    #78
    boo3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 201 ✭✭boo3000


    I don't know! But i think some people are expecting that some action by the EU/IMF will sort out our problems or perhaps an upturn in the global economy. I think our problems are more than just economic or political and neither of these will suffice, given our problems I think we'll just get ourselves in trouble again down the road.
    There is the possibility that a new political direction or social change will evolve elsewhere and we'll follow but i think that's a lot to depend on.


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