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ACTA - International SOPA, Ireland & EU signed 26th Jan

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    AdamD wrote: »
    I could also illegally download shows like skins, but 4oD is so handy to use because you get high quality streams with only a couple of ads that I would say Channel 4/E4's shows aren't even affected by illegal downloads. The companies who claim to be affected need to turn around and take a look at their archaic business strategies.

    We see Channel 4's shows at the same times as they're broadcast in the UK. They are not premiered in advance as a HBO or Showtime show would be in the States. Slightly different scenario.
    Will change when Channel 4's player archives are limited to its source market though (ie. the UK) in the not-too-distant future. The illegal downloading will then take off for material from that particular network.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    JustinDee wrote: »
    We see Channel 4's shows at the same times as they're broadcast in the UK. They are not premiered in advance as a HBO or Showtime show would be in the States. Slightly different scenario.
    Will change when Channel 4's player archives are limited to its source market though (ie. the UK) in the not-too-distant future. The illegal downloading will then take off for material from that particular network.

    You've just proved teh point other posters have been arguing, and that you have been arguing against.

    It's a service problem, and piracy only becomes a bigger factor when good, legal and convenient avenues of access are restricted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    karma_ wrote: »
    You've just proved teh point other posters have been arguing, and that you have been arguing against.

    It's a service problem, and piracy only becomes a bigger factor when good, legal and convenient avenues of access are restricted.
    Wrong, you're attempting to absolve a thief of stealing with the excuse that it is somebody else's fault (when nobody else is responsible for their actions).
    If it isn't available yet, then you can't have it until it comes out. If it costs too much for you, then you can't have it until you can afford it. If it doesn't come out in your region, you can't have it.
    Sånn er livet.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭AdamD


    JustinDee wrote: »
    Wrong, you're attempting to absolve a thief of stealing with the excuse that it is somebody else's fault (when nobody else is responsible for their actions).
    If it isn't available yet, then you can't have it until it comes out. If it costs too much for you, then you can't have it until you can afford it. If it doesn't come out in your region, you can't have it.
    Sånn er livet.

    No no no no no, this act has essentially nothing to do with 'stealing' (which it isn't btw), it will stop free speech and probably stop some of the piracy. It will probably stop people using youtube downloaders and crappy programs like that. The people who illegally download large quantities of movies/tv shows/music will still be able to do it.

    Companies changing their business strategies would have a far greater affect on piracy than this law. That's what we're trying to say and we've given you several examples of successful business' who have lowered the piracy levels on their products.

    You seem to be looking at this like 'zomg stealing is bad, lets pass this act', which would be fine if the benefits of the act (stopping stealing) were actually big, and outweighed the drawbacks of the act (free speech, guilty until proven innocent), which frankly they don't even come close to.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 60 ✭✭BlueJohn


    http://stopsopaireland.com/

    Hello i dont know if any one here has seen this yet but if you could please sign the petition.

    "Sean Sherlock, Minister for Enterprise, Jobs and Innovation, has announced he intends to enact a radical new law curtailing access to websites in Ireland, without a vote in the Oireachtas. Your civil rights and free access to the internet are under threat. Stop Minister Sherlock."

    also contact him directly http://www.seansherlock.ie/contact-me/



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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    JustinDee wrote: »
    Wrong, you're attempting to absolve a thief of stealing with the excuse that it is somebody else's fault (when nobody else is responsible for their actions).
    If it isn't available yet, then you can't have it until it comes out. If it costs too much for you, then you can't have it until you can afford it. If it doesn't come out in your region, you can't have it.
    Sånn er livet.

    Even with all the logic and sound arguments presented to you, you still flat out refuse to concede anything at all. Even when your own words run contrary to what you believe.

    The main problem is, that it is people like yourself, who have limited understanding of the problems at all who are concocting these idiotic pieces of legislation. How cheaply you would sell your rights and freedoms.


  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Justin Dee for minister for finarse.!!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    karma_ wrote: »
    The main problem is, that it is people like yourself, who have limited understanding of the problems at all who are concocting these idiotic pieces of legislation. How cheaply you would sell your rights and freedoms.
    Arguing that "piracy will always be there" is actually not enough to force a point across. An opinion on what drives people to download illegally is just that, an opinion. Not proof in the slightest nor some constructable and steerable select poll, online or otherwise.
    Melodramatic skrieking about 'freedoms' and 'rights' from people already advocating the allowing of copyright breach therefore ignoring 'rights' in the first place, is mainly what is happening right now.

    If somebody wants to protest this, they should get up off their heineys and protest at Leinster Hse. Sitting on one's keyster, tapping at a computer will achieve sod all. If its that big a deal to your "freedoms and rights", get out there and do something about it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    JustinDee wrote: »
    If somebody wants to protest this, they should get up off their heineys and protest at Leinster Hse. Sitting on one's keyster, tapping at a computer will achieve sod all. If its that big a deal to your "freedoms and rights", get out there and do something about it.

    Play the ball not the man please.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    JustinDee wrote: »
    Arguing that "piracy will always be there" is actually not enough to force a point across. An opinion on what drives people to download illegally is just that, an opinion. Not proof in the slightest nor some constructable and steerable select poll, online or otherwise.
    Melodramatic skrieking about 'freedoms' and 'rights' from people already advocating the allowing of copyright breach therefore ignoring 'rights' in the first place, is mainly what is happening right now.

    If somebody wants to protest this, they should get up off their heineys and protest at Leinster Hse. Sitting on one's keyster, tapping at a computer will achieve sod all. If its that big a deal to your "freedoms and rights", get out there and do something about it.
    People have put plenty of valid, well-reasoned arguments to you (myself included) that you have just ignored, or have evaded the key points, only to repeat the same stuff you have already said thus far in the thread, accusing people of being "melodramatic" and "shrieking" in the process.

    You also portray people who are against these laws as "advocating the allowing of copyright breach" which is just a plain dishonest argument, ignoring the valid points put forward to you, and you know that.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Sent Eamon Gilmore an email about ACTA a couple of days ago, since I assumed he may be the one dealing with it for Ireland in the EU parliament; got this in response just now:
    EDIT: *snip* Email has a note saying "private and confidential", so removing it. Basically it said my questions were a matter for "Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation"

    That's interesting, it implies that Sean Sherlock (the same guy trying to impose Irish anti-piracy, possibly website blocking, laws), may be the one dealing with ACTA as well.

    I'd be very curious to know his involvement (if any) in ACTA negotiations, and what his point of view is on ACTA (hell, maybe that is the impetus for the laws he is trying to bring in).


  • Registered Users Posts: 175 ✭✭nacho66


    BlueJohn wrote: »
    http://stopsopaireland.com/

    Hello i dont know if any one here has seen this yet but if you could please sign the petition.

    "Sean Sherlock, Minister for Enterprise, Jobs and Innovation, has announced he intends to enact a radical new law curtailing access to websites in Ireland, without a vote in the Oireachtas. Your civil rights and free access to the internet are under threat. Stop Minister Sherlock."

    also contact him directly http://www.seansherlock.ie/contact-me/


    Petitions won't help man. They will be ignored. It has to be national news headline!! Only loud and powerful protests would do the job.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    JustinDee wrote: »
    Wrong, you're attempting to absolve a thief of stealing with the excuse that it is somebody else's fault (when nobody else is responsible for their actions).
    If it isn't available yet, then you can't have it until it comes out. If it costs too much for you, then you can't have it until you can afford it. If it doesn't come out in your region, you can't have it.
    Sånn er livet.

    We live in a globalized world. Attempting to release media in one country but not in another is simply not possible anymore. It can't be done. No amount of anti piracy legislation will change that, media companies are going to have to get with the times and have a bit of cop on.

    Would you also argue against people modding a DVD player to play all regions and then buying Lord of the Rings in the US when it came out on DVD about 3 months earlier than here? That's what I did, at the time I'm sure that also counted as piracy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Furthermore: The fact that the megaupload "conspirators" were making hundreds of millions of dollars every year from offering downloads for free sort of proves that the industry could definitely capitalize on online downloading in the same way, if they actually used their hears.
    I don't actually approve of piracy at all, but as a musician I know a bolted horse when I see one. And I am NOT ok with giving the government the right to regulate our last remaining free medium under the pretence of caring about artists. They do not, in reality, give a crap about us.

    I guarantee you that if ACTA, SOPA etc passed, the first thing to go in the US would probably be Wikileaks.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 370 ✭✭wiseguy


    Emailed local Labour reps lets see what they have to say, will ring and visit offices if no reply, this crap is not on


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,499 ✭✭✭Sabre0001


    Got a response from Laura Real (Assistant to Liam Aylward MEP)

    Dear Mr O Beirne,

    Thank you for your email outlining your opposition to ACTA. I will bring the points and concerns you have raised to the attention of Mr Aylward.

    As you may be aware the European Commission has asked the European Council to authorise the signature for ACTA and then the European Parliament will be officially asked for consent. As ACTA is a mixed agreement - partly competence of the Member States - ratifications by national parliaments, including Ireland, will be required as well.

    The European Parliament Committees that are responsible for this file - DEVE, INTA (Internal Market) and JURI (Legal Affairs) have already began preparatory work and have asked the Parliament legal service for opinion. We have been informed that the JURI Committee is currently checking the compatibility of ACTA with the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights.

    The was concern among MEPs regarding the secrecy of the negotiations surrounding ACTA and there have been several Parliamentary questions on this issue, mostly calling for publication of the documents from negotiations.

    Mr Aylward is not a member of the committees responsible for ACTA but his ALDE (Alliance of Liberals and Democrats) colleagues in these Committees have been to the forefront in asking for increased transparency and called for the European Commission to present all discussion documents, relevant studies and impact assessments on ACTA.

    At present, clarification is still needed on the compatibility of ACTA with the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights before a final position is taken. The MEPs are awaiting this and the feedback of their colleagues working directly on this file. Mr Aylward has received several emails from constituents concerned about the impact of this agreement on their livelihoods and access to information and will take these views into consideration ahead of full Plenary vote.

    I trust this information will be of interest to you.

    🤪



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Nice to see the Metro has "26,000 oppose web law" on their front page today. And I see that "Anonymous" took down the justice.ie website as well.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Sabre0001 wrote: »
    Got a response from Laura Real (Assistant to Liam Aylward MEP)

    ...
    Excellent; that's one of the most informative bits of information I have read anywhere in the last few days, with regards to what is going on in the EU right now.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 370 ✭✭wiseguy


    No reply yet, despite me being quite "cordial" and clear in the email.

    Why would any IT company setup in the country if we get a reputation for censorship along the lines of China, we already seen Google mostly pull out of China for these reasons, and thats a 1 billion strong emerging market, what hope is there for little Ireland then?


  • Hosted Moderators Posts: 7,938 ✭✭✭fitz


    We live in a globalized world. Attempting to release media in one country but not in another is simply not possible anymore.

    This is the crux of it.
    The internet isn't based in one country.
    We can consume media from all over the world now.
    Remove the reasons people consume pirated material, and most people will stop consuming pirated material.

    If the media organisations had spent the last 10 years developing ways to make money out of the digital delivery stream the web provides, this wouldn't be an issue, but it's easier to sue people.

    Someone mentioned Bandcamp.com.
    Have a look at Topspin: http://www.topspinmedia.com/faq#whatis
    It's a platform that bands can use to sell digital and physical goods direct, manages fan data, gives stats, does ticketing, everything you could need.
    Acts pay a yearly subscription to use the platform and embed the stores/widgets in their websites.

    I cannot for the life of me understand why labels didn't develop platforms like this. They'd have access to all the backend-data, allowing them to do their A&R scouting based off reporting, sorted by territory, etc. They could then identify acts who were building a good direct fan base, and approach them with a view to signing for the label. The platform would make the label's life easier, the band's life easier, and there's the attraction for the band of knowing that if they start doing well enough, there's a good chance they'll get a call.

    I heard a story from an artist manager about their artist getting the payment statement from a label, only to find "breakages" deductions, traditionally taken to cover the cost of physical products being broken in transit, were also being taken from their digital sales revenue.

    The major labels have not adapted, and are clinging to outdated business practices. As long as they do that without embracing online the medium, they're not going to provide services in a way that removes the reasons for piracy.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,872 ✭✭✭View


    We live in a globalized world. Attempting to release media in one country but not in another is simply not possible anymore.

    You may be pleasantly surprised to learn that Neelie Kroes - the Commission VP for the European Digital Agenda - seems to agree with you.

    Item #1 on the planned action list for the Digital Agenda is:
    Simplifying pan-European licensing for online works

    Link to item #1 is here. The full list is here.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 370 ✭✭wiseguy


    Rang Sean Serlock (022 53523) the poor lady in his office is quote "overwhelmed with phone calls" today as well as emails
    You know however ****ed up our political system is I am happy people are ringing, emailing, petitioning their representatives.



    The following paragraph from the Irish times is extremely worrying
    In his ruling in the case against UPC in October 2010, Mr Justice Peter Charleton said internet piracy was “devastating” the recording companies’ business in Ireland.

    Not only did it “undermine their business” but it was also “ruining the ability of creative people in Ireland to earn a living”. The retail sector was also affected by this “wholesale theft”. Solutions are available to the deal with the problem of internet piracy but the 2000 Copyright and Related Rights Act lacked the proper provision for blocking, diverting and interrupting of illegal downloads from the internet, he found.

    My god where to start,

    1. how the hell could ISPs determine if data being transmitted thru their network is "legal" or "illegal" short of implementing expensive and invasive deep packet network monitoring technologies? Along the lines of what China uses to censor its population. Do we in Ireland really want to be on the same league is China?

    2. who defines if a site, blog or forum (boards?) is legal or illegal?

    3. who maintains a list/database of illegal sites?

    4. what is to prevent this system from being abused in order to block small companies, startups and of course politicians themselves? As has happened in Australia.

    5. in order to interrupt a download, somehow the isp in real-time has to determine that its illegal, the privacy implications of this are huge.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Nice to see the Metro has "26,000 oppose web law" on their front page today. And I see that "Anonymous" took down the justice.ie website as well.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    :eek:
    Scofflaw? Supporting Anon? Or am I reading this wrong?
    I must say I'm shocked. Extremely pleasantly surprised, but surprised all the same :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 370 ✭✭wiseguy


    from his twitter page
    https://twitter.com/#!/seansherlocktd

    "the law is there already. But there was a judgement. And we must reflect the words of that judgement so as to remove doubt"

    "net must innovate. Check scarlet judgement"

    " But if there is a high court judgement (charleton) we must remove the doubt. Respectfully. Read that first"

    "how? How bout. No we will not legislate to block your access to websites. Keep searching. Eu law upholds your right to do so"


    yet the Judge said

    "the 2000 Copyright and Related Rights Act lacked the proper provision for blocking, diverting and interrupting of illegal downloads from the internet"

    So Sherlock, how do you square that circle?

    How would you block, divert and interrupt downloads without resorting to Orwellian deep packet inspection technologies? Or worse a registry of censored sites??


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,872 ✭✭✭View


    :eek:
    Scofflaw? Supporting Anon? Or am I reading this wrong?
    I must say I'm shocked. Extremely pleasantly surprised, but surprised all the same :D

    The meaning of the word "Scofflaw" is:
    scoff·law (skflô, skôf-)
    n.
    One who habitually violates the law or fails to answer court summonses.

    Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.


    scofflaw [ˈskɒflɔː]
    n
    US informal a person who habitually flouts or violates the law, esp one who fails to pay debts or answer summonses

    Source: Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003

    Not that that means anything of course when choosing a user name...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 370 ✭✭wiseguy


    So far Sean's reply on twitter has been along the lines of "we have to do something" and "the judge made me do it"

    I am sorry but who is running the country?
    The judges or politicians we elect to make laws and run the country??

    Is this guy for real? how the hell did he become minister?

    I am sorry in meantime from twitter

    Aj_z1GfCAAAolGl.jpg:large
    Aj84FvdCQAAoUM7.jpg:large


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 370 ✭✭wiseguy


    Just got a call back from local TD, he wants to meet to discuss whats all the fuss is about and why it would hurt the economy.

    The system works?! :eek:

    Also it seems that the pressure worked somewhat!
    http://www.thejournal.ie/sherlock-op...37005-Jan2012/
    THE JUNIOR MINISTER preparing a controversial new Statutory Instrument dealing with online copyright protection has said he is open to holding a Dáil debate on the issue.

    hallelujah!


    BTW reading this now http://www.bailii.org/ie/cases/IEHC/2010/H377.html
    its actually scary
    I find it impossible to recognise as a matter of constitutional law, that the protection of the entitlement to be left in the sphere of private communications could ever extend to conversations, emails, letters, phonecalls or any other communication designed to further a criminal enterprise. Criminals leave the private sphere when they infringe the rights of other, or conspire in that respect. Legislative intervention may mean detection involves a statutory infringement: leaving the admission of evidence to be decided on the balance of respect for the law and the seriousness of what is involved. In the case of internet file sharing to infringe copyright, I am of the view that there are no privacy or data protection implications to detecting unauthorised downloads of copyright material using peer-to-peer technology;
    Solution III: CopySense
    43. In the United States, the Digital Millennium Copyright Act 2000 and the relevant legislation governing higher education institutions require all universities to control illegal file sharing on their networks. Charles Benjamin, the senior network and systems administrator for the Department of Housing and Residents in the University of Florida, gave evidence as to how the system functions in the University. This is called CopySense.

    :eek:
    Solution II: Global File Registry
    38. The solution of detection and diversion that was described in evidence by Jorg Michael Speck involves several steps: this is called Global File Registry. A programme which is capable of being integrated into the Cisco 8000

    :eek:
    olution I: Detection
    34. The IP address of those engaging in the peer-to-peer uploading/downloading of copyright material can be discovered easily and accurately. DtecNet software is a process which was described in evidence by Thomas Sehested. In essence, by checking with Résaux IP Européens (“RIPE”), an organisation based in Paris, a list of IP addresses provided to internet service providers in Europe is obtained. Digital files of copyright material are then obtained from the owners. There may be several thousand of these obtained directly from the record companies. As the download is proceeding through the system it carries the IP address of those who are downloading material. DtecNet does what any user of a peer-to-peer network does in order to obtain a download. No extra information is obtained. The fact of the download together with IP address, the digital information identifying the copyright material and the time or the crucial data is obtained. DtecNet searches peer-to-peer networks for files being uploaded which are subject to copyright. On finding such a file, DtecNet requests the file. This is then transmitted to, and copied, by DtecNet’s computer. It is integral to this process that basic information about the uploader from whom the work is being transmitted is obtained. The examples produced in Court show that the user’s pseudonym and the IP address of the user appears together with the relevant time, date and identification of the copyright material. As part of this process, if the IP address was registered to an Irish internet service provider, DtecNet identified how many sound recordings were being made available by that user on peer-to-peer software. A list of the files was then captured in the form of a log containing the name, size and hash value of user’s shared files. Although a music file may be split up in several hundred pieces, each of them carries a sufficient identification through the file # for it to be fitted into an appropriate order of sense and sufficient to clearly identify that it is a portion of a work which is subject to copyright. In all of the examples of which the Court was provided evidence, there is nothing to suggest that if only a tiny portion of the work was being uploaded that that would be insufficient to identify it. Rather, what peer-to-peer involves is obtaining the entire music recording that is desired. The file # identifier ensures that it is put into a correct format and order. The process of DtecNet is automatic, in the sense that the handshake between the computers, in peer-to-peer terminology, is fully automated. The search for particular files, for example the 1,000 most popular songs relevant to the recording companies, at that time, is inputted for the purpose of search. I am satisfied that from the evidence that the process is highly accurate.

    :eek:


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Jonny7


    wiseguy wrote: »
    Just got a call back from local TD, he wants to meet to discuss whats all the fuss is about and why it would hurt the economy.

    Have you accepted?

    I am sure some boardsies can propose some questions, etc for you to mention


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 370 ✭✭wiseguy


    Jonny7 wrote: »
    Have you accepted?

    I am sure some boardsies can propose some questions, etc for you to mention

    Yep meeting on Friday, please put forward any questions ill prepare a list, gathering information now myself to make all of this coherent and quick + down to the point,
    I think need to make it clear and emphasize that this act/amendment will cost the country jobs.

    Some thoughts so far:

    * Reading the Judgement linked above its clear that the solutions proposed by the Judge Charleton are quite invasive and recommends using same Cisco gear that is used in China to perform deep packet inspection :eek:
    Does Ireland want to endup in the same pidgeonhole as oppressive authoritarian regimes when it comes to the internet?

    * I also want to know why is this being kept hush hush, and is being rushed at a time when there are larger issues for government to worry about, also why did Sherlock feel that this could have been passed without discussion in Dail?

    * The judge (with all respects) seems to make mockery of privacy, He states that pirates do not deserve privacy, yet in order to determine that someone is a pirate he wants to force ISPs to use deep packet inspection and other solutions in order to monitor everyones traffic, this is sort of like being assumed guilty and having to prove ones innocence.

    * Being involved in IT industry myself, why would any company setup in Ireland if we are (whether perceived or real) to be a bad place for internet companies to do business due to legislation?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,651 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    None of my local tds offices had a clue what i was talking about, and 2 of them are gonna be calling me back to find out what the hell is going on.


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