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Honda Civic hybrid converted to LPG

  • 11-11-2013 10:31pm
    #1
    lfp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 115 ✭✭


    Following on from a previous post on reducing commuting costs I took the plunge last week and had my Honda Civic hybrid converted to lpg. I intend updating this thread occasionally with real life costs/savings with the system and honest feedback on the pros and cons of my conversion.

    The conversion was done by vvtech in kilcullen. The guys there were helpful, efficient and did the job promptly and the saab courtesy car was a nice drive for the few days.
    Having done 6 prius conversions before they were keen to try the civic. They said the civic system was an easier integration than the prius, except for the fact the civic engine bay was to tidy and made some fittings harder to add in.
    The lpg ecu is an add on to the main civic ecu so the hybrid electric motor still contributes and the stop/start technology still works as it should.
    The spare wheel well took the 56l tank, but the boot floor is raised half an inch. For me thats not an issue, I'm happy to have good lpg range and sacrifice the asthetics of the never really seen boot!
    Otherwise the system is simple. One button added to an unused slot beside the drivers door. On cold mornings the car has run for up to 3km on petrol before lpg kicks in. On a normal day it could be on lpg after 20 seconds.
    Odd observations - with a pretty much full lpg and petrol tanks the rear is riding slightly low. Ironically enough the car seems to handle better on the road now. It always seemed a bit keen to roll in the corners, but seems more solid now...

    So far so good. It'll take a few more weeks to get an idea of economy. The lpg fuel filter needs replacing every 10kms, so we'll see how that works, it's supposed to be a quick 50 quid job...
    The car is due a service in the next 1km, so it'll be interesting to see if my usual mechanic will send me packing or be delighted with the variety!

    Most importantly, my wife is content. She sees no difference driving it and there are no extra buttons or dials to worry about......
    All in the conversion was 1200. This included extra for some aluminium injectors to suit the civic engine.

    I have a free 1km check. After that I should have a few figures on fuel consumption and any negative feedback if the system is causing initial hassles.

    Wish me luck!


Comments

  • #2
    corglass
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭corglass


    Good luck! Any pics?


  • #3
    colm_mcm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,478 ✭✭✭✭colm_mcm


    Is it the old or new shape?


  • #4
    Gran Hermano
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,330 ✭✭✭Gran Hermano


    Any issue with your insurance company when you informed them?


  • #5
    Bigus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,944 ✭✭✭Bigus


    Bigus wrote: »
    Stick with the civic hybrid

    Also put low rolling resistance tyres on it when tyres are due for a change.

    LPG on the civic would be the cheapest way to commute , even better than the best diesel.


    I hope it works out well for you,

    Good reliable car you have there with none of the expensive diesel expensive drawbacks.

    Best of luck with it.


  • #6
    lfp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 115 ✭✭lfp


    Firstly, see link for photos on the lpg.ie website - http://www.lpg.ie/Gallery/Honda/CivicHybrid

    Insurance company have car fully covered on the basis I will submit the engineers report, which I have done and if they have any issues they will revert. They did advise there should be no hassle and no or negligible premium change. They said its not common but not unusual, once the company is legit all should be fine.

    Its a 2009 civic.


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  • #7
    zapata
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 895 ✭✭✭zapata


    Looks neat, but the filler cap seems very low to the ground. Would this place get a bit of crap from the roads and would you have to get on your knees to attach the nozzle.


  • #8
    aidanki
    Registered Users Posts: 1,281 ✭✭✭aidanki


    what mpg do you get from the hybrid ? Im guessing your doing mostly around town spins


  • #9
    Bigus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,944 ✭✭✭Bigus


    aidanki wrote: »
    what mpg do you get from the hybrid ? Im guessing your doing mostly around town spins

    No,see here

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057074075


  • #10
    aidanki
    Registered Users Posts: 1,281 ✭✭✭aidanki


    Bigus wrote: »
    No,see here

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057074075

    I see 50mpg at motorway cruising, is that at 75-80mph ar at 60mph, v good going at motorway speeds

    what does it typically return ?


  • #11
    lfp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 115 ✭✭lfp


    The typical driving is short trips and around town, which would give 39 to 40 mpg. Anytime I've done proper driving around the country and done a clock the distance and fill the tank test I get about 47 mpg. Pure motorway and good road driving gives about 55mpg on the trip readout, but I'm slow to trust that.

    I'd drive on the speed limit most of the time, not that slow. The car can get very efficient when driven in a certain way. For example, on a flat road at about 43kph ish on cruise control the battery seems to give virtually all the power. Also, slow pick when taking off, building up speed gives no real battery contribution, whereas a bit more poke takes power from the battery and as such reduce fuel consumption.....

    Also cruising on downhills really benefits the battery getting more juice.


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  • #12
    aidanki
    Registered Users Posts: 1,281 ✭✭✭aidanki


    lfp wrote: »
    The typical driving is short trips and around town, which would give 39 to 40 mpg. Anytime I've done proper driving around the country and done a clock the distance and fill the tank test I get about 47 mpg. Pure motorway and good road driving gives about 55mpg on the trip readout, but I'm slow to trust that.

    I'd drive on the speed limit most of the time, not that slow. The car can get very efficient when driven in a certain way. For example, on a flat road at about 43kph ish on cruise control the battery seems to give virtually all the power. Also, slow pick when taking off, building up speed gives no real battery contribution, whereas a bit more poke takes power from the battery and as such reduce fuel consumption.....

    Also cruising on downhills really benefits the battery getting more juice.

    those figures are good v good efficiency for a 1.4petrol, I wonder what would be the equivalent if you could turn the hybrid feature off


  • #13
    lfp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 115 ✭✭lfp


    The best economy help from the electric motor comes at slower speeds and accelerating. The electric motor has very little input on motorway driving. The key to good mpg for me is cruise control. The car seems to be way more efficient when I use it. I'm guessing its to do with the computer being better able to select battery input and kick in the lean burn mode of the 1.33 engine. How u drive is a big factor also. My wife never uses cruise control and wouldn't coast downhills and that all adds up in seriously reducing mpg compared to my own driving.

    On the fuel cap location. It's easy to access, no dirty knees. The actual dirt on the bumper might be a headache. I'll report back after a few fills.... I'll be stealing a pack or two if baby wipes, just in case!


  • #14
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    cruise is less efficient than a steady throttle position. The downside of this is that your speed will vary a lot.

    This is verified by looking at the instant mpg on any car.


  • #15
    TBi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,784 ✭✭✭TBi


    Just curious, what has the combined range increased to?


  • #16
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The electric motor in the prius while it does do less at motorway speeds it does kick in when you put the boot down to accelerate. Maybe in the civic it does less because the motor in the civic is a lot less powerful. 20 hp V 67 hp in the Prius.

    The civic engine is 85 hp V 75 in the Prius however the motor in the prius has 300 lbs of pulling power + 70 lbs for the engine while the civic produces 129 combined. What that translates to at the axle is anyone's guess.

    I don't know much about the gearbox in the civic but the prius gearbox is insanely simple with just a single speed gearbox because the motor has so much torque, it doesn't need gears 1-3 or whatever ratios that would translate to in a normal cvt. The MK III prius is even simpler again.

    The trick is learning to use the hybrid system when off the motorway and I average 60-65 mpg, though that will drop in cold and even more if I put the winter tyres on.

    Converting the prius to lpg interests me greatly, but getting the right system installed is crucial because the engine starts and shuts down so much I need to be sure that when up to temperature it will always start on lpg.

    I don't know how long more I intend to keep it either. Looks like we'll have it a while longer, my partner feels it's not worth spending 1200 on with 105K or so miles. I would have to keep it 3 years to justify it and will already have it 3 years in Feb.

    This also scares me when I heard of it, most likely due to poor installation !

    http://www.carscoops.com/2013/11/toyota-prius-taxi-blows-up-in-barcelona.html

    Prius-Barcelona.jpg


  • #17
    lfp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 115 ✭✭lfp


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    cruise is less efficient than a steady throttle position. The downside of this is that your speed will vary a lot.

    This is verified by looking at the instant mpg on any car.

    I agree the theory says cruise is less efficient, but in reality and maybe its down to the way I drive cruise is better


  • #18
    lfp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 115 ✭✭lfp


    TBi wrote: »
    Just curious, what has the combined range increased to?
    Basic calc seems to give between 1200km to 1300km depending on how efficient I drive. The 56l lpg tank can take about 45l of fuel. I'll never test it in reality as I hope to only fully use petrol when caught away from an lpg filling station


  • #19
    lfp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 115 ✭✭lfp


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    The electric motor in the prius while it does do less at motorway speeds it does kick in when you put the boot down to accelerate. Maybe in the civic it does less because the motor in the civic is a lot less powerful. 20 hp V 67 hp in the Prius.

    The civic engine is 85 hp V 75 in the Prius however the motor in the prius has 300 lbs of pulling power + 70 lbs for the engine while the civic produces 129 combined. What that translates to at the axle is anyone's guess.

    I don't know much about the gearbox in the civic but the prius gearbox is insanely simple with just a single speed gearbox because the motor has so much torque, it doesn't need gears 1-3 or whatever ratios that would translate to in a normal cvt. The MK III prius is even simpler again.

    The trick is learning to use the hybrid system when off the motorway and I average 60-65 mpg, though that will drop in cold and even more if I put the winter tyres on.

    Converting the prius to lpg interests me greatly, but getting the right system installed is crucial because the engine starts and shuts down so much I need to be sure that when up to temperature it will always start on lpg.

    I don't know how long more I intend to keep it either. Looks like we'll have it a while longer, my partner feels it's not worth spending 1200 on with 105K or so miles. I would have to keep it 3 years to justify it and will already have it 3 years in Feb.

    This also scares me when I heard of it, most likely due to poor installation !

    http://www.carscoops.com/2013/11/toyota-prius-taxi-blows-up-in-barcelona.html

    Prius-Barcelona.jpg
    The guys who did my conversion did 6 prius already for a taxi company i think. If you buzz them they might give you the contact details and get real life feedback on a prius conversion


  • #20
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    lfp wrote: »
    Basic calc seems to give between 1200km to 1300km depending on how efficient I drive. The 56l lpg tank can take about 45l of fuel. I'll never test it in reality as I hope to only fully use petrol when caught away from an lpg filling station

    You'd surely only carry about 10 litres of petrol rather than a full tank with all that extra weight when you don't need it ?


  • #21
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    lfp wrote: »
    The guys who did my conversion did 6 prius already for a taxi company i think. If you buzz them they might give you the contact details and get real life feedback on a prius conversion

    I'm sure the accident was down to poor installation, maybe they were inexperienced, but yes I must contact them to find out about switching back to lpg straight away when the engine warms up.

    Best of luck with the conversion by the way.


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  • #22
    lfp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 115 ✭✭lfp


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    You'd surely only carry about 10 litres of petrol rather than a full tank with all that extra weight when you don't need it ?

    Agreed. I'm not sure how much petrol I'll carry. On cold a cold day with a few short trips spread throughout the day I could cover 15k to 20k of my driving with petrol. In warmer weather and rare short journeys 10l could last months and months. I'll play it by ear.


  • #23
    toyotaavensis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,331 ✭✭✭toyotaavensis


    Mad lad, what happened your prius that it needs 1200EUR?


  • #24
    650Ginge
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 900 ✭✭✭650Ginge


    toyotaavensis wrote: »
    Mad lad, what happened your prius that it needs 1200EUR?

    You should read the post from start to finish.


  • #25
    toyotaavensis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,331 ✭✭✭toyotaavensis


    my bad - thought you meant it needed some work rather than an lpg kit


  • #26
    74merc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 150 ✭✭74merc


    If the engine is warm, it should run on LPG instantly. I think the LPG ECU has a coolant temperature sensor and will swap over once it reaches a certain temperature. I know my own car starts on LPG when it is warm.


  • #27
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    74merc wrote: »
    If the engine is warm, it should run on LPG instantly. I think the LPG ECU has a coolant temperature sensor and will swap over once it reaches a certain temperature. I know my own car starts on LPG when it is warm.

    There are some LPG kits that do not switch straight to LPG on a warm engine in the Prius.


  • #28
    lfp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 115 ✭✭lfp


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    There are some LPG kits that do not switch straight to LPG on a warm engine in the Prius.

    It depends on the system you pay for. I think I could have gone with an 800 euro package but it wouldn't have the straight to lpg when the engine is warm and doesn't allow the stop/start feature to function.


  • #29
    BMJD
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,694 ✭✭✭BMJD


    I'd love to do a plug-in conversion on my Prius, it's insanely expensive though, it would be cheaper to sell my car and just buy a Prius Plug-In :pac:
    http://www.pluginsupply.com/

    if there was an LPG station anywhere near me, I would go down that road as well


  • #30
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    BMJD wrote: »
    I'd love to do a plug-in conversion on my Prius, it's insanely expensive though, it would be cheaper to sell my car and just buy a Prius Plug-In :pac:
    http://www.pluginsupply.com/

    if there was an LPG station anywhere near me, I would go down that road as well

    I thought about the plug in conversion but to do it properly you need to hack the ECU and also remove the NiMh battery for lithium.

    You can use the existing battery along with lithium but you got to use a 12V 5kw inverter and it's not very efficient.

    The conversion where you remove the existing NiMh pack along with ecu hack allows for up tot 70 mph in ev mode depending on load but the motor has only 67 hp so it would not be very powerful except for lower speeds where it's got a lot of torque.

    Also this way means you are messing with over 350 volts of DC power which is lethal.

    Also it's not financially viable.

    You'd pick up a leaf in 2014 for 10 grand which is not much more than what batteries would cost to convert the prius by the time you pay import taxes and vat.


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  • #31
    zapata
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 895 ✭✭✭zapata


    This DIY worked for a short while but did not end well. Yer wan is a bit nuts but she tried....
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9S0pO1bXdpE
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fn81ETL2bgU

    And then
    UPDATE: July 2009.
    "Unfortunately my Prius suffered a catastrophic battery short at the end of June, causing one of the batteries to gas severely and explode. "
    http://www.evalbum.com/1744


  • #32
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Running the Prius in EV mode for extended periods imo isn't a good idea. It wasn't designed for this and it puts extra strain on the components.

    The Prius is excellent as a hybrid working as it's meant to be.

    You can have issues with BMS on the cells and it only takes one. LiFeP04 is a pretty safe chamistry at the expense of size and weight from the best cells that say, Tesla use. They are not nearly as good but they are safe, tesla cells must have liquid cooling.

    The Leaf cells are also safe and have been 0 reports of fires due to collision even with smashed cells.

    Nissan chose safety over capacity. There is a trade off. However despite the fires in tesla cars there were 0 injuries, and it's a very safe car, the fires were due to pretty serious collisions. A petrol car may or may not have ended up in flames, thing is, a petrol car is far more dangerous when it goes up as it holds a lot more energy.

    10 grand for a leaf next year or maybe less would be a ultra cheap car to run, provided the battery is in reasonable condition. But even if it has a 10% loss in capacity it would still be very useful.


  • #33
    johnievers
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭johnievers


    I am thinking of convering my 2007 honda civic hybrid to LPG - how did you get on after a few fills.
    lfp wrote: »
    The best economy help from the electric motor comes at slower speeds and accelerating. The electric motor has very little input on motorway driving. The key to good mpg for me is cruise control. The car seems to be way more efficient when I use it. I'm guessing its to do with the computer being better able to select battery input and kick in the lean burn mode of the 1.33 engine. How u drive is a big factor also. My wife never uses cruise control and wouldn't coast downhills and that all adds up in seriously reducing mpg compared to my own driving.

    On the fuel cap location. It's easy to access, no dirty knees. The actual dirt on the bumper might be a headache. I'll report back after a few fills.... I'll be stealing a pack or two if baby wipes, just in case!


  • #34
    lfp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 115 ✭✭lfp


    johnievers wrote: »
    I am thinking of convering my 2007 honda civic hybrid to LPa lG - how did you get on after a few fills.
    To answer you fully I'll need to give a long enough response.
    I've done about 43,000kms since the conversion was done late last year. On paper it's been a brilliant financial decision. I do mainly motorway driving and the average mpg on the high 120kph lpg is about 35mpg. When I'm doing a week of normal steady driving mixing city/motorway/slow roads the mpg is more like 45mpg. To convert that to normal fuel cost formula it would be like 55mpg on motorway and probably 75mpg on normal driving. In fairness that is good for real life figures. I'd guess the most fuel efficient 1.6 diesels wouldn't give the same real life figures. The only extra cost was 20e to replace the lpg fuel filter. Other than that service costs are the same.
    Now for the downsides.
    About 5% of the time the lpg station will be out of lpg or out of order.
    The lpg pump is always in the open, no cover/roof. A nightmare in wet weather.
    My wife has tried and failed to use the lpg pump EVERY TIME. It's not complicated but there are clicks and tightening that women seem to dislike.
    Now for the big issue. After about 20,000kms I started to get the odd knock from the engine and slight loss of power and the check engine light came on, along with the VSA warning light. Over the past few months it has gotten steadily worse. The knocking sound can be loud and the loss of power can reduce speed from 90kph to 25kph. Once the VSA warning light kicks in the issue stops and the engine is perfect for the rest of the journey, be it 1 mile or 100 miles. However, once I stop the car and restart the VSA is cleared and the problem will probably occure again. This happens on petrol aswell as lpg. I've had it checked by my own independent garage whom I trust along with the lpg guys and a local honda garage. Bottom line, the engine is perfect as are injectors, spark plugs, sensors etc. They all agree on the misfires occuring and that the VSA warning light "solves" it, literally one journey at a time. Fuel economy is still as good.
    Having read a good few Honda forums it seems the VSA warning kicking in stops the VCM - Variable cylinder management, a honda system that shuts down cylinders while driving at certain speeds to increase fuel efficiency. I'm guessing the lpg has confused the system or caused a change to some aspect of engine timing that in a non vcm engine wouldn't matter but with such a sensitive system it has caused these misfires.
    Financially the payoff is still accruing, but I'm living with the fear something might go in the engine some day soon. The misfire itself is only a very small iirritant, it's not knowing the why or how that's the killer. My garage said I could spend 3k changing plugs, injectors, sensors and still not fix it OR I could leave it be and the car could kick it another 100, 000 miles with just the odd misfires.
    All in all I'd advise a lad to walk away from doing this on the Civic hybrid. I think the 1.3l engine is a little small and refined/sensitive. The lpg conversions are usually on much bigger and robust engines. Even the prius is a 1.8l.
    Saying all that, the maths have worked and one week I "minded" my driving and got over 55mpg on the lpg which is almost 90mpg in cost terms compared to petrol/deisel.


  • #35
    johnievers
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭johnievers


    Thanks that is very helpful


  • #36
    lfp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 115 ✭✭lfp


    One final update on this conversion. On the basis the misfires were caused by the vcm system I tested a hunch. I put the car in S gear (sports mode) as opposed to the usual D gear. My hope was the Sports mode would not allow the vcm to kick in. I don't know if the hunch had a valid technical basis, but it's worked. Since I've driven in gear I haven't had one single misfire in over 3,000kms. It's less fuel efficient while overtaking, and stop starting but at cruising/motorway speeds it seems the same.


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  • #37
    aidanki
    Registered Users Posts: 1,281 ✭✭✭aidanki


    any update on this ?


  • #38
    biko
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,220 ✭✭✭✭biko


    What update are you looking for?
    Please elaborate on your specific need.


  • #39
    aidanki
    Registered Users Posts: 1,281 ✭✭✭aidanki


    reliability is the big one

    v easy convert car to lpg, will it go for 200k miles on it without going through 3 engines is more important

    and of course stopping for no reason on the side of the road

    and how about mpg if your tracking it


  • #40
    lfp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 115 ✭✭lfp


    In very simple terms I've done about 100,000 kms since the lpg conversion. Driving in S gear the engine is perfectly smooth still. An earlier post of mine described a misfire issue I had. I resolved it by simply changing gears.

    Haven't checked the mpg in a long time, but earlier posts of mine had that info. Motorway driving low to mid 30's and sensible driving low to mid 40's. Nothing special and it is down on pure petrol mpg which I tested a few years ago at high 40's. Obviously the price of lpg turns 45mpg into something like 75mpg in money terms. I see no reason why there isn't another 100,000 kms in the engine.

    All in all its worked out, but the misfires gave me a worry. If you have specific questions throw them at me.


  • #41
    cerastes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭cerastes


    All very interesting, but is there really that much savings converting a hybrid with the additional costs?
    From the figures mentioned it doesn't seem to match what a petrol or diesel might be able to reproduce, it seems a hybrid might be designed for something other than what a modern diesel or even petrol might do better, ie long motorway runs,
    Also, not sure how you get the figures for what your overall/ lpg mpg converts into petrol mpg, if log is cheaper per unit volume but has less energy also? Does it really equate to an increased mpg?
    That said, despite how long the thread is going and not having seen it till now, it's interesting but surprising to me to see someone carry out an LPG conversion.
    I'd consider an LPG conversion of a petrol car or a hybrid but not both😃
    I like the look of the Honda hybrids, both the insight and the saloon civic ( must look into the differences).
    By the by, with stop starting of the combustion engine and use of electric motor, how is the servicing of the engine determined? Does it record hours of use?

    What kind of mpg did the car deliver like to the conversion/what is the normal petrol capacity of the tank and how many miles did you get with it?


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