Should the NTA be looking at a standardised network map for the Dublin area?

AngryLips · 04-08-2015 7:55pm #1

With BXD getting ever near to completion and the expected increase in services from the loop line resignaling project ...is it about time the city gets a network map displaying Luas services plus Dart and Maynooth services?

LXFlyer · 04-08-2015 8:42pm

You mean like this one?

https://www.transportforireland.ie/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Frequent_Services_A3.pdf

There are a whole series of transport maps freely available at www.a-b.ie

AngryLips · 04-08-2015 9:32pm

I've never seen that map anywhere except in the link you've shared

LXFlyer · 04-08-2015 10:15pm

Well it's very easy to find on that website - just go to the maps section.

The locality maps are out on street in the locations concerned.

caff · 04-08-2015 10:17pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Well it's very easy to find on that website - just go to the maps section.

The locality maps are out on street in the locations concerned.

Which streets never saw anything like it before?

LXFlyer · 04-08-2015 10:25pm

Go to the maps section of www.a-b.ie - you'll see the various maps that are available to download (click on plan a journey), and which have been there for at least two years.

Given that is the National Journey Planner website from the NTA, it's the logical place to look. There's a whole range of useful tools there, including interactive maps for most routes.

The downloadable maps are generally railway stations, the airport, hospitals and universities, but do include places like Dún Laoghaire where there are at least two sets of maps on street.

Unfortunately the city centre stops are constantly changing at the moment due to LUAS works, so the city centre maps may be superseded by ongoing changes.

Geuze · 05-08-2015 1:15pm

lxflyer wrote: »

You mean like this one?

https://www.transportforireland.ie/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Frequent_Services_A3.pdf

There are a whole series of transport maps freely available at www.a-b.ie

That map should be on every bus shelter, as happens in many continental cities.

More preferable would be a street map, with bus/tram/rail routes overlaid.

Also, every bus stop should be on the map.

Geuze · 05-08-2015 1:19pm

http://fahrinfo.bvg.de/Fahrinfo/bin/query.bin/en?&ujm=1

Here is an example of a street map with the transit network overlaid on top.

LXFlyer · 05-08-2015 1:45pm

There are plans for a complete overhaul of the passenger information, and a manual has been produced, but this is a huge undertaking that will take time to roll out.

That map is an overview of the network - it certainly should not have every stop on it.

There is a need for a range of maps, schematic network, schematic local, actual network (showing streets) and actual local.

Geuze · 05-08-2015 5:11pm

Agreed.

Also, every bus stop should have a name.

Do they at the moment?

Also, I have a feeling there are too many bus stops, too close together.

What is the normal distance between them? What should it be?

LXFlyer · 05-08-2015 5:17pm

Geuze wrote: »

Agreed.

Also, every bus stop should have a name.

Do they at the moment?

Also, I have a feeling there are too many bus stops, too close together.

What is the normal distance between them? What should it be?

Every bus stop already has a number and a name. Have you not used either the Dublin Bus RTPI app or the Transport for Ireland RTPI app?

Regarding bus stop spacing, well per the TfL design manual:

An ideal spacing for bus stops is approximately 400m, although a closer spacing in town centres and residential areas may be necessary to meet passenger requirements.

Undoubtedly there is scope for a review of bus stop locations, but I would suggest that there are probably more important issues to deal with before that.

dfx- · 06-08-2015 4:02am

Geuze wrote: »

That map should be on every bus shelter, as happens in many continental cities.

More preferable would be a street map, with bus/tram/rail routes overlaid.

Also, every bus stop should be on the map.

Absolutely agree, it being limited to a website or app is not ideal to say the least.

McAlban · 06-08-2015 12:08pm

That NTA Map is also 3 years out of date.

Looking at the BVG Map will only make you envious. Was in Berlin for a long stay a few years ago and was able to travel all over the City thanks to S-Bahn, U-Bahn and Tram network.

However, As for Cartography, the Brands in the BVG map I mention above are heavily regulated by DB's Marketing dept. They are easily recognisable to all users. Whereas looking at the NTA map it's actually quite confusing. IT's even difficult to pick out the Major Rail Stations on it.

Luas, Dart, Commuter and Inter City all need a proper easily recognised brand image and corporate Identity, not the silly and unecessary Geometric Irish Flag some consultants came up with last year :rolleyes:

LXFlyer · 06-08-2015 12:35pm

McAlban wrote: »

That NTA Map is also 3 years out of date.

Looking at the BVG Map will only make you envious. Was in Berlin for a long stay a few years ago and was able to travel all over the City thanks to S-Bahn, U-Bahn and Tram network.

However, As for Cartography, the Brands in the BVG map I mention above are heavily regulated by DB's Marketing dept. They are easily recognisable to all users. Whereas looking at the NTA map it's actually quite confusing. IT's even difficult to pick out the Major Rail Stations on it.

Luas, Dart, Commuter and Inter City all need a proper easily recognised brand image and corporate Identity, not the silly and unecessary Geometric Irish Flag some consultants came up with last year :rolleyes:

There haven't been that many changes to the network in the last three years so I don't know what you're getting at.

Geuze · 06-08-2015 12:44pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Every bus stop already has a number and a name.

Sorry, I should have said: every bus stop should have its name clearly signed on the bus pole or bus shelter.

Is that the case?

I don't think so.

I see the code, yes, but not the name.

Geuze · 06-08-2015 12:45pm

McAlban wrote: »

Looking at the BVG Map will only make you envious.

There is no excuses anymore for Ireland's standards to not match best practice.

LXFlyer · 06-08-2015 12:49pm

Geuze wrote: »

There is no excuses anymore for Ireland's standards to not match best practice.

As I've already told you - there are major changes in the pipeline, which will involve best practices in passenger information being rolled out across the country.

But this is a mammoth task and is not something that can happen overnight.

The NTA don't have vast armies of staff available - it will be done on an incremental basis.

LXFlyer · 06-08-2015 12:50pm

Geuze wrote: »

Sorry, I should have said: every bus stop should have its name clearly signed on the bus pole or bus shelter.

Is that the case?

I don't think so.

I see the code, yes, but not the name.

The bus stops are all going to be taken over by the NTA - again this is a work in progress, with new style stops to be rolled out.

It will take some time.

Geuze · 06-08-2015 1:12pm

lxflyer wrote: »

As I've already told you - there are major changes in the pipeline, which will involve best practices in passenger information being rolled out across the country.

Great.

Will this include timetables at each bus stop that tell you the times buses leave that bus stop, as distinct from the times they leave the start of the route?

Another point - on the 747 last week the driver shouted out the names of the stops.

When might we have a video screen, with the name of every bus stop scrolling across the screen?

Or even an audio announcement of each next stop?

Geuze · 06-08-2015 1:14pm

lxflyer wrote: »

The bus stops are all going to be taken over by the NTA - again this is a work in progress, with new style stops to be rolled out.

It will take some time.

Great.

Each shelter should have:

a large (at least 1m x 1m) map of the entire network
a local area map of maybe 500m each side of the stop
timetables for all routes passing that stop
indications of the journey duration from that stop to each subsequent stop
fares data with actual current fares listed

LXFlyer · 06-08-2015 1:21pm

I don't work for the NTA - the manual was discussed here before. Do a search.

We all know that there's an information deficiency - there's no point in going on and on about it.

Your posts are getting into information overload!!

There is a project to improve the information to a uniform standard that is in line with best practice - that much I do know.

What that will finally look like we will have to wait and see.

Ben D Bus · 06-08-2015 1:32pm

Geuze wrote: »

When might we have a video screen, with the name of every bus stop scrolling across the screen?

Or even an audio announcement of each next stop?

When were you last on a bus? The above is on all DB buses now afaik. Audio at least, scrolling stop names on all the newer buses.

If the driver had to shout out the stops then I guess that bus had an out-of-order Passenger Information System. It happens.

LXFlyer · 06-08-2015 2:02pm

Ben D Bus wrote: »

When were you last on a bus? The above is on all DB buses now afaik. Audio at least, scrolling stop names on all the newer buses.

If the driver had to shout out the stops then I guess that bus had an out-of-order Passenger Information System. It happens.

Every new bus purchased for the past four years at least has audio and visual display stop identification.

All older buses have audio stop ID.

To the other poster I would say that there is a cost element to all of this - as I said there will be improvements but I would expect it to be a gradual process as it is a mammoth task.

It will get better but it will take time.

Timetables with individual stop timing estimates (note they are not timetables, but timing estimates) are available on the NTA national journey planner website at www.a-b.ie for every route.

People need to start using that website more - I'm blue in the face referring people to it. There is a whole suite of information available there.

Geuze · 06-08-2015 2:27pm

Ben D Bus wrote: »

When were you last on a bus? The above is on all DB buses now afaik. Audio at least, scrolling stop names on all the newer buses.

If the driver had to shout out the stops then I guess that bus had an out-of-order Passenger Information System. It happens.

Upstairs on a 747 from airport last week.

As far as I recall, no video screen upstairs, although I won't swear 100%.

Maybe a video screen downstairs.

Geuze · 06-08-2015 2:28pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Timetables with individual stop timing estimates (note they are not timetables, but timing estimates) are available on the NTA national journey planner website at www.a-b.ie for every route.

People need to start using that website more - I'm blue in the face referring people to it. There is a whole suite of information available there.

Very good.

All that stop-specific info should also be posted at every stop.

Csalem · 06-08-2015 3:06pm

McAlban wrote: »

That NTA Map is also 3 years out of date.

Looking at the BVG Map will only make you envious. Was in Berlin for a long stay a few years ago and was able to travel all over the City thanks to S-Bahn, U-Bahn and Tram network.

However, As for Cartography, the Brands in the BVG map I mention above are heavily regulated by DB's Marketing dept. They are easily recognisable to all users. Whereas looking at the NTA map it's actually quite confusing. IT's even difficult to pick out the Major Rail Stations on it.

Luas, Dart, Commuter and Inter City all need a proper easily recognised brand image and corporate Identity, not the silly and unecessary Geometric Irish Flag some consultants came up with last year :rolleyes:

BVG info is excellent but my favourite thing they do us the BVG Berlin Atlas which you can buy in their shops:
https://shop.bvg.de/index.php/product/404/show/0/0/0/0/buy

It is an atlas book of Berlin and shows every bus/tram/rail route in the city. It also schematic maps of the networks and every timetable. It is heaven in a very big book. Sadly don't think we will ever get one here.

lil5 · 06-08-2015 3:15pm

Csalem wrote: »

BVG info is excellent but my favourite thing they do us the BVG Berlin Atlas which you can buy in their shops:
https://shop.bvg.de/index.php/product/404/show/0/0/0/0/buy

It is an atlas book of Berlin and shows every bus/tram/rail route in the city. It also schematic maps of the networks and every timetable. It is heaven in a very big book. Sadly don't think we will ever get one here.

And if you ever did get one here,
- it would be two years out of date,
- you would need a personalised leap card to order it and,
- it would cost you 129 Euro.

McAlban · 06-08-2015 3:48pm

Csalem wrote: »

BVG info is excellent but my favourite thing they do us the BVG Berlin Atlas which you can buy in their shops:
https://shop.bvg.de/index.php/product/404/show/0/0/0/0/buy

It is an atlas book of Berlin and shows every bus/tram/rail route in the city. It also schematic maps of the networks and every timetable. It is heaven in a very big book. Sadly don't think we will ever get one here.

We could map our Commuter, Surburban and Underground systems on a sheet of bog-roll at the minute. At least it would be semi-useful. The reason they have such good info management is driven by necessity. The sheer size of the network requires this kind of information. IIRC the OSI Dublin Street guide/Road Atlas had this kind of info in it. (Bus Stops and What Routes serviced them).

I have travelled extensivly in Europe for work and realise that public transport in Dublin is archaic. Systematic under funding over generations and when funding is released it generally goes in pay deals to the union members.

dfx- · 06-08-2015 4:11pm

lxflyer wrote: »

As I've already told you - there are major changes in the pipeline, which will involve best practices in passenger information being rolled out across the country.

But this is a mammoth task and is not something that can happen overnight.

The NTA don't have vast armies of staff available - it will be done on an incremental basis.

Divide the work up between the seven garages? Use their local knowledge, a quick email, a completion date and one of their shiny fines for non-completion.

They splashed out €150m on new buses and are trying to get a new livery, so there must be money there.

AngryLips · 07-08-2015 8:08am

lxflyer wrote: »

The bus stops are all going to be taken over by the NTA - again this is a work in progress, with new style stops to be rolled out.

It will take some time.

I hope they don't water down or change the colour scheme too much to the detriment of the visually impaired

Should the NTA be looking at a standardised network map for the Dublin area?

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