European Commission Putting Pressure on Goverment to Tender Rail Services

LXFlyer · 04-08-2015 2:19pm

newacc2015 wrote: »

I cant see a private company tendering for this unless, they can get rid of CIE staff. You will struggle to find a company, that has had any positive experiences with a semi-state company employees or taking over public sectors firms. Greyhound had horrific experiences with former DCC employees. Eg absenteeism of 25%, refusing to work more than 30 hour weeks, despite being overpaid. In the end greyhound gave nearly all of them redundancy, due to their high cost and lack of work ethic

Well unless you can see a way of suddenly magically training up new drivers within a matter of months (that's impossible by the way), TUPE will have to apply.

mickydoomsux · 04-08-2015 10:04pm

newacc2015 wrote: »

I cant see a private company tendering for this unless, they can get rid of CIE staff. You will struggle to find a company, that has had any positive experiences with a semi-state company employees or taking over public sectors firms. Greyhound had horrific experiences with former DCC employees. Eg absenteeism of 25%, refusing to work more than 30 hour weeks, despite being overpaid. In the end greyhound gave nearly all of them redundancy, due to their high cost and lack of work ethic

One example where most people think the private company was the one that acted rather poorly.

Must try harder.

Infini · 05-08-2015 2:41am

lxflyer wrote: »

Well unless you can see a way of suddenly magically training up new drivers within a matter of months (that's impossible by the way), TUPE will have to apply.

There's little chance of any worker in IR accepting those agreements especially since the greyhound debacle showed them up as how worthless they are.

As things stand its doubtful that they could even get anyone here to tender in the 1st place considering how small the network is. The article mentions the luas but thats a completely different issue considering its light rail, was designed recently from the ground up and is based only in Dublin, Heavy Rail is a national operation and also has a legacy network to maintain. On top of that there's no way the workers will let their contracts be changed to something inferior which would possibly mean months of industrial chaos. I certainly wont transfer to a private company under any circumstance and plenty of others wont either they will fight for their terms and conditions and wont let themselves be shafted like Greyhound. As it stands the government was struggling with just the buses they don't want to open another can of worms especially since there's no real benefit to do so.

EU commission might put pressure on the issue but it probably wont get very far considering the network is isolated, small, unprofitable overall and is being maintained on a rather threadbare footing as it is. There's other countries as well that are against tendering on their rail networks so the EU might not go too far with it especially since enough of them against it could shoot down the entire proposal altogether.

markpb · 05-08-2015 8:53am

Infini2 wrote: »

As things stand its doubtful that they could even get anyone here to tender in the 1st place considering how small the network is. The article mentions the luas but thats a completely different issue considering its light rail, was designed recently from the ground up and is based only in Dublin, Heavy Rail is a national operation and also has a legacy network to maintain.

You're right that the labour issues will make this very hard to carry off but the rest of your points seem irrelevant.

Why is the size of the network an issue for Irish Rail but but not for Luas? Yes, being a separate network makes it easier but being heavy rail, recently built, not connected to (many) other networks, not bring profitable have nothing to do with anything. The operator well be paid a fixed fee, the profitability of the network is irrelevant to them.

You're also assuming that maintaining the network will be part of the contract but there's no reason to believe it will be.

So basically....workers. Everything else is a red herring.

end of the road · 05-08-2015 10:13am

markpb wrote: »

You're right that the labour issues will make this very hard to carry off but the rest of your points seem irrelevant.

no, they are very relevant and legitimate points.

markpb wrote: »

Why is the size of the network an issue for Irish Rail but but not for Luas?

luas is in the capital and whatever about its current situation, it has been proffitable and may be quick to get back to proffitability again. the heavy rail network is small with lowish populations outside the cities. irish rail are a PSO service who's aim isn't to make a proffit come what may. if it makes a proffit fantastic, if it doesn't thats unfortunate but so be it. private companies on the other hand have to and are entitled to make a proffit, and if the subsidy being payed doesn't allow for such proffits then its not cost effective or worth while for them applying.

markpb wrote: »

Yes, being a separate network makes it easier but being heavy rail, recently built, not connected to (many) other networks, not bring profitable have nothing to do with anything.

they have everything to do with it. you cannot compare luas to heavy rail.

markpb wrote: »

The operator well be paid a fixed fee, the profitability of the network is irrelevant to them.

its very relevant to them. how is the fixed fee going to be payed. is the fixed fee going to be enough to ensure these companies can make money from their running of our network? will the current subsidy allow for them to make a proffit meaning its actually worth while applying?

markpb wrote: »

You're also assuming that maintaining the network will be part of the contract but there's no reason to believe it will be.

nobody mentioned maintenence of the network in fairness. only an idiot would repeat the mistake of not having the infrastructure in state hands (mind you this is ireland so it could happen)

markpb wrote: »

So basically....workers. Everything else is a red herring.

far from it

IE 222 · 05-08-2015 2:40pm

markpb wrote: »

You're right that the labour issues will make this very hard to carry off but the rest of your points seem irrelevant.

Why is the size of the network an issue for Irish Rail but but not for Luas? Yes, being a separate network makes it easier but being heavy rail, recently built, not connected to (many) other networks, not bring profitable have nothing to do with anything. The operator well be paid a fixed fee, the profitability of the network is irrelevant to them.

You're also assuming that maintaining the network will be part of the contract but there's no reason to believe it will be.

So basically....workers. Everything else is a red herring.

Luas is light rail. Its more like a bus.

Size = costs. You cant compare luas to irish rail as they are two completely different systems. Luas least preforming station most likely has more footfall than the entire Neagh line but will only travel a fraction of its lent. The luas will carry roughly 31 million passengers over a 27 mile system while irish rail will carry about 38 million over 1,700 miles.

Not a single luas station is manned where most irish rail ones are. Luas stations are all of the same built low maintenance basic design type as many irish rail ones built over 100 years ago need care and updated facilities along with regular maintenance. Luas use regular traffic lights at level crossings Irish rail need to use high tech systems. Irish rail needs a lot more stock on each train compared to a luas. An intercity train will only give you 4 journeys a day where a luas could make between 10 - 15. A dart needs twice as much power than a luas but yet the fair structure would be similar. Luas uses just one type of unit were irish rail have 9 different fleet types to look after excluding freight and track maintenance stock.

newacc2015 · 05-08-2015 8:21pm

end of the road wrote: »

they had great experiences. the staff weren't overpayed. the staff had great work ethic dispite their treatment. the 30 hour week was in their original contract and they were right not to give it up. they were to good for that company anyway so they were right to take what they could get and leave. shame they didn't bankrupt it but at least hopefully they are happy with what they got in their redundantsy.

The staff got paid a third more than any other truck drivers in Ireland. They got significantly more than the nearest highest paid Bin men in Europe. I would called that over paid. Greyhound admitted they would be reluctant to take over any services, that were provided by any semi-state company again. They went from like 90 DCC employees to about 15, as they had to give them redundancy. They found DCC workers were lazy and incompetent. What private company has 25% absenteeism? What company gives 30 hour weeks?

Victor · 05-08-2015 8:32pm

Infini2 wrote: »

There's little chance of any worker in IR accepting those agreements especially since the greyhound debacle showed them up as how worthless they are.

Ask your union rep about the Industrial Relations (Amendment) Act 2015. The contract should be capable of being converted to a registered employment agreement - that would be binding on any employer.

end of the road wrote: »

nobody mentioned maintenence of the network in fairness. only an idiot would repeat the mistake of not having the infrastructure in state hands (mind you this is ireland so it could happen)

Nobody has suggested privatisation of the network.

The network is already maintained using a mix of Irish Rail and private contractors.

IE 222 wrote: »

Luas is light rail. Its more like a bus.

No it isn't. Regardless, trains, trams, buses - all maintained by mechanics, electricians, metalworkers, cleaners, etc.

Size = costs. You cant compare luas to irish rail as they are two completely different systems. Luas least preforming station most likely has more footfall than the entire Neagh line but will only travel a fraction of its lent. The luas will carry roughly 31 million passengers over a 27 mile system while irish rail will carry about 38 million over 1,700 miles.

All completely irrelevant to who runs it. But if you want to make the point, as Irish Rail is a small operator, shouldn't we get a bigger operator?

Not a single luas station is manned where most irish rail ones are.

Not manned permanently. Away from main termini, you see a lot more CSOs and security personnel on Luas that you will see on Irish Rail.

Luas stations are all of the same built low maintenance basic design type as many irish rail ones built over 100 years ago need care and updated facilities along with regular maintenance.

All completely irrelevant to who runs it. Who do you think maintains the ticket machines? Cleans the platforms? Repairs the paving?

Luas use regular traffic lights at level crossings Irish rail need to use high tech systems.

**cough**

**cough**

In the scheme of things, Luas signalling is just as sophisticated as any other railway signalling system. Have a read of the links here: http://www.tii.ie/light-rail/luas/

Irish rail needs a lot more stock on each train compared to a luas. An intercity train will only give you 4 journeys a day where a luas could make between 10 - 15. A dart needs twice as much power than a luas but yet the fair structure would be similar.

All completely irrelevant to who runs it.

Luas uses just one type of unit were irish rail have 9 different fleet types to look after excluding freight and track maintenance stock.

Luas uses:
26 Citadis 301 (3000 class)
14 Citadis 401 (4000 class)
26 Citadis 402 (5000 class)
+ work vehicles (several road-rail maintenance vehicles, a Schörling / Mercedes Benz track cleaning vehicle and Unilok and Alstom diesel shunters)

They even look different:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/38/Citadis_dublin.jpg
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/WuzFEHtw-7o/0.jpg
http://www.lococarriage.org.uk/Luas%20loco.jpg

flyingsnail · 05-08-2015 8:59pm

Given that Irish Rail has already been split into the railway undertaking (RU) and infrastructure manager (IM) as part of a previous railway package you don't really have to consider the infrastructure maintenance as any part of the tendering process (at least as I understand it) the only part that would be up for tender would be the actual operation of the trains themselves.

end of the road · 05-08-2015 9:01pm

newacc2015 wrote: »

The staff got paid a third more than any other truck drivers in Ireland. They got significantly more than the nearest highest paid Bin men in Europe. I would called that over paid.

not overpayed at all. decently payed, yes . however they earned that wage.

newacc2015 wrote: »

Greyhound admitted they would be reluctant to take over any services, that were provided by any semi-state company again.

good. not anything to lose sleep over

newacc2015 wrote: »

They went from like 90 DCC employees to about 15, as they had to give them redundancy.

as long as those who got it were happy.

newacc2015 wrote: »

They found DCC workers were lazy and incompetent. What private company has 25% absenteeism?

yeah i'd bet they did all right. i wouldn't take claims from a company like them seriously TBH.

newacc2015 wrote: »

What company gives 30 hour weeks?

one where the employees transfer from a company where they are on a contract that stipulates such hours. the company could have negotiated them but instead thought they could force changes on people, and were proved wrong.

markpb · 05-08-2015 10:44pm

IE 222 wrote: »

Luas is light rail. Its more like a bus.

Size = costs. You cant compare luas to irish rail as they are two completely different systems. Luas least preforming station most likely has more footfall than the entire Neagh line but will only travel a fraction of its lent. The luas will carry roughly 31 million passengers over a 27 mile system while irish rail will carry about 38 million over 1,700 miles.

Not a single luas station is manned where most irish rail ones are. Luas stations are all of the same built low maintenance basic design type as many irish rail ones built over 100 years ago need care and updated facilities along with regular maintenance. Luas use regular traffic lights at level crossings Irish rail need to use high tech systems. Irish rail needs a lot more stock on each train compared to a luas. An intercity train will only give you 4 journeys a day where a luas could make between 10 - 15. A dart needs twice as much power than a luas but yet the fair structure would be similar. Luas uses just one type of unit were irish rail have 9 different fleet types to look after excluding freight and track maintenance stock.

I think you misundertand how tendering for TOC will work. An operator will be paid a fixed fee for operating the trains at a frequency and standard dictated by the NTA. The network will be managed by Irish Rail. It's possible that the trains will be maintained by someone else too. This is exactly how it works today for Luas. And it's exactly how it works for Irish Rail but because the network and operations are operated by a single company, you can't see it.

Whether the trains are frequent or not, profitable or not, heavy or light makes little or no difference because that will be factored into the risk bourne by the NTA and the price bid by the tenders. It's exactly the case today because the state pays Irish Rail to operate the network regardless of how well or badly they do so.

Irish rail need to use high tech systems.

That made me giggle. A lot.

Carawaystick · 06-08-2015 3:06pm

What if ilda staff don't want to transfer to another company?
Or refuse to ?
Who qualifies the drivers to drive on each route? What if they stop qualifying staff working for non IÉ companies?

Can't see this as being good for the passenger, with strikes very likely.

n97 mini · 06-08-2015 9:46pm

This thing about Luas is a light rail city network and is not comparable to a heavy rail network like IE's is also a red herring. From Malahide to Greystones is a suburban electrified rail "network" and along with the Maynooth line and to a lesser extent the Hazelhatch line represents a suburban rail network that is potentially very profitable.

I would like to see all those routes bundled together and operated by one operator in an integrated fashion, heavy rail for the capital if you like, and then intercity routes put out to tender individually, especially if they are isolated lines like the Sligo line. At the moment I'm a bit miffed at the nice comfy stock running mostly empty a lot of the time on Intercity routes (like Sligo), when the busy commuter routes need more investment.

end of the road · 06-08-2015 11:01pm

n97 mini wrote: »

This thing about Luas is a light rail city network and is not comparable to a heavy rail network like IE's is also a red herring.

no it isn't. its reality and fact.

n97 mini wrote: »

From Malahide to Greystones is a suburban electrified rail "network" and along with the Maynooth line and to a lesser extent the Hazelhatch line represents a suburban rail network that is potentially very profitable.

yes, but as technically they are the dublin area parts of other lines, not only do the services using the line that aren't dart and commuter have to be considered, but the proffitable bits should be helping to support the less or unproffitable bits

n97 mini wrote: »

I would like to see all those routes bundled together and operated by one operator in an integrated fashion, heavy rail for the capital if you like,

so give the proffitible bits to 1 operator and leave the rest? thats exactly what happened in the UK with TPE and northern rail. in short, no thanks

n97 mini wrote: »

and then intercity routes put out to tender individually, especially if they are isolated lines like the Sligo line.

so who is going to bid for the sligo line? and if a private company does win the tender, how are they going to make a proffit?

n97 mini wrote: »

At the moment I'm a bit miffed at the nice comfy stock running mostly empty a lot of the time on Intercity routes (like Sligo), when the busy commuter routes need more investment.

so what should happen. the stock removed, the line shut because? the nice comfy stock that supposibly runs empty a lot of the time on intercity lines is regional stock, bought for regional and intercity lines, to replace the mark 2 and cravens stock which were life expired. of course they ended up replaceing the mark 3 as well but that has been done to death. such stock would not be suitable for commuter runs, just like the 26/8/900s aren't suitable for long distance services. the majority of services on the main intercity and regional lines do well, afternoon might be a bit dodgy, but the stock has to run a service back later. so unless it can telliport from dublin to its destination, run a service regardless it must.

n97 mini · 06-08-2015 11:36pm

end of the road wrote: »

so who is going to bid for the sligo line? and if a private company does win the tender, how are they going to make a proffit?

so what should happen. the stock removed, the line shut because? .

Zzzz.

You don't seem to understand how this works. The operator with the most attractive proposal is paid to operate the service. Profitability doesn't affect them.

Secondly no one is shutting lines.

end of the road · 06-08-2015 11:48pm

Zzzz.

n97 mini wrote: »

You don't seem to understand how this works.

i do actually.

n97 mini wrote: »

The operator with the most attractive proposal is paid to operate the service.

no, i'd suggest that more then likely its, the operator who can deliver the requirements at the cheepist price wins the contract. if the NTA are making all the decisians, i'd expect thats how it will go. like with the bus tendering, nothing new can be delivered by the companies themselves as everything is taken care of.

n97 mini wrote: »

Profitability doesn't affect them.

well considering the fixed fee has to be payed, and that fee has to be attractive, IE allow a private company to make a proffit from their operation of the line should they win, i'd suggest that proffitability might be a slightly bigger issue then one might think. of course the subsidy may potentially have to be increased, but maybe not.

n97 mini wrote: »

Secondly no one is shutting lines.

who said they were. nobody. you went on about stock running empty a lot of the time on intercity lines which isn't the case, mentioning sligo, so i asked you whats the solution. but as your not going to answer the question, its a mute point.

Victor · 07-08-2015 3:52am

n97 mini wrote: »

Secondly no one is shutting lines.

end of the road wrote: »

who said they were. nobody.

You raised the issue here:

end of the road wrote: »

so what should happen. the stock removed, the line shut because?

You seem to be either incapable of having a reasoned, logical debate or are trolling. In either case, I need you to improve the quality or your posts.

Moderator

shodge · 07-08-2015 3:40pm

Ain’t ever going to happen, fact is the CIE pension fund has a hole of several hundred million euros missing.
If a privater operator was to take over the CIE business it would also be taking on the pension liabilities.
TUPE, it only guarantees conditions for 1 year and 1 day, you would have to be a idiot to transfer to a new private company from any of the CIE companies.
The 10% of bus tenders has gone very quite, reason is no Dublin Bus drivers can be forced to go work for the private operators, if the private operators are to take on the 10% of routes they must have the staff ready to hit the ground running, where are they going to get the staff?
Same applies to the other CIE companies, privatisation won’t be happening until the government is flush with money and can pay generous redundancy packages and fill the hole in the pension fund, in others words not in our life time.

mickydoomsux · 07-08-2015 11:52pm

The fact that numerous candidates for the next election in Britain are already touting re-nationalization of their rail network is also going to damage any chance of tenders for routes over here.

Hard for politicians in the Dail to support it when they are attempting to undo the same thing in our nearest neighboring EU member because it simply didn't work.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime · 08-08-2015 5:48am

Just seen in the news that today some reason services from Heathrow Airport will not be running due to driver shortages.

And that's in a company there a long enough time to have the means to run the service !

Never heard of that in Irish rail.

n97 mini · 08-08-2015 9:42am

shodge wrote: »

Ain’t ever going to happen, fact is the CIE pension fund has a hole of several hundred million euros missing.
If a privater operator was to take over the CIE business it would also be taking on the pension liabilities.

Maybe someone else can confirm but the sale or off loading of some of CIE, and associated debts, to a 3rd party is not what is being talked about.

n97 mini · 08-08-2015 9:49am

mickydoomsux wrote: »

The fact that numerous candidates for the next election in Britain are already touting re-nationalization of their rail network is also going to damage any chance of tenders for routes over here.

I think they're called pre-election promises.

icdg · 08-08-2015 9:53am

n97 mini wrote: »

Maybe someone else can confirm but the sale or off loading of some of CIE, and associated debts, to a 3rd party is not what is being talked about.

Nope. CIE would not be sold and presumably the infrastructure (if not also the rolling stock) would remain in public ownership. What would in fact be sold is a piece of paper saying that the holder has the rights to operate rail services between x and y between such a date and such a date. And by "sold" would likely actually mean the company which offers to do it for the least money.

n97 mini · 08-08-2015 12:57pm

So any talk of pension plan deficits etc is a red herring?

Captain Chaos · 08-08-2015 2:59pm

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

Just seen in the news that today some reason services from Heathrow Airport will not be running due to driver shortages.

And that's in a company there a long enough time to have the means to run the service !

Never heard of that in Irish rail.

That actually does and has happened in Irish Rail, they just call it "operational difficulties" or a "train failure" the odd time it does happen.

As it is they have to wait till next year to run more services on the DART that they want to right now but can't because they don't have enough qualified drivers.

LXFlyer · 08-08-2015 3:08pm

Captain Chaos wrote: »

That actually does and has happened in Irish Rail, they just call it "operational difficulties" or a "train failure" the odd time it does happen.

As it is they have to wait till next year to run more services on the DART that they want to right now but can't because they don't have enough qualified drivers.

I'm not sure what the relevance of that comment is, except to indicate how long it takes to train a professional driver.

You can't expect the company to have excessive staff numbers either - there is limited spare cover but if they had more spare drivers on hand the company could be accused of being overstaffed! It is a case of you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.

The incidences of trains being cancelled due to no staff being available are to be fair limited enough.

n97 mini · 08-08-2015 3:41pm

Is the transition from train driving in (for example) eastern European countries to UK or Ireland difficult, or do the unions insist all new recruits have to start training from scratch?

LXFlyer · 08-08-2015 3:43pm

n97 mini wrote: »

Is the transition from train driving in (for example) eastern European countries to UK or Ireland difficult, or do the unions insist all new recruits have to start from training from scratch?

IE don't hire drivers externally - you have to be an employee first.

Then it is start from scratch.

I don't think that is a union constraint - it's a company practice.

hytrogen · 08-08-2015 4:03pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

What if ilda staff don't want to transfer to another company?
Or refuse to ?
Who qualifies the drivers to drive on each route? What if they stop qualifying staff working for non IÉ companies?

Can't see this as being good for the passenger, with strikes very likely.

NTA and dept of transport will swiftly intervene.

hytrogen · 08-08-2015 4:08pm

n97 mini wrote: »

This thing about Luas is a light rail city network and is not comparable to a heavy rail network like IE's is also a red herring.

end of the road wrote: »

no it isn't. its reality and fact.

Eh the one running on old Harcourt line closed by that FF gobshizzle granpa Andrews?? Might be a slight different grade bogey but same route set out as the original heavy freight..

European Commission Putting Pressure on Goverment to Tender Rail Services

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