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Why I oppose the Lisbon Treaty

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  • 12-06-2008 1:48pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 7


    In the last few days, Brian Cowen has stated that Ireland's future will be decided by the Lisbon Treaty Referendum. If, therefore, its ratification is so paramount with regard to the future of Ireland, and indeed Europe, then why are we the only nation voting on it? Surely, in any democracy, people are entitled to decide on issues which fundamentally shape their future, right? A half a billion people now live in the E.U., but only a few million are being asked for their opinion in a referendum being billed by Cowen as the most import in a generation. Either European democracy is well or truly a thing of the past, or Cowen, Kenny and Gilmore are exaggerating the importance of this referendum with a view to sparing their blushes on the corridors of power in Brussels.

    "The rest of Europe will be mad with us if we vote No."
    A few years ago I met a Swede in Limerick and the two of us have been together ever since. I now live in Sweden. So what do Swedes think about the E.U. I hear you ask? Well, Swedes are generally quite proud of the Swedish way of doing things, be it high taxation, the Kronor, personal numbers, an open border with Norway, state owned off-licences that close at 3p.m. on a Saturday, legalised snus, or paid male parental leave of up to a year and a half in duration. So they feel that their lifestyle is under threat by the E.U., right? Well to be honest, I very rarely hear as much as a whisper about the European Union here, and when I do it is usually something negative along the lines of the E.U. wanting to ban snus. And despite the apocalyptic visions being painted by the cowboys in the Dáil back home, I haven't seen anything written about the Lisbon Treaty in Swedish newspapers that wasn't longer that four lines in length. And as for the average person on the street, they don't even know that there is such a thing as the Lisbon Treaty, never mind how they might receive it if they did. Therefore I can reassure you that the people of Sweden will not hate us if we do indeed have the guts to reject this treaty. As far as I'm concerned, a European Union is the idea of mutual respect between all of Europe's peoples. In that context, we should vote as we please, with the expectation that our decision will be respected no matter how we decide to vote.

    "The E.U. has scratched our back, now it’s our turn to scratch its"
    In my opinion, the E.U. invested in Ireland in the exact same fashion that a bank might invest in you when you take out a mortgage with them. In other words, the E.U. invested in Ireland with the intent of benefiting from this investment. And indeed they have benefited. Ireland is one of the top producers of hardware, software and pharmaceutical products in Europe, as well as being the European hub for a whole range of American multinationals. We are also sitting on top of one of the largest gas and oil fields in Europe. European economies have most certainly benefited from Ireland's expansion, not to mention the jobs that have been created for the hundreds of thousands of Europeans who have migrated to Ireland in recent years. But rather than receiving credit in this regard, Irish people are dealt the guilt-trip card by both Irish and foreign politicians. If you really believe that European governments rallied together in a spirit of charity and goodwill with regard to the poor old Irish, then why is it that these very same countries are engaged in the practice of shipping billions of dollars worth of weapons to the third world?

    The pendulum has swung against workers' rights and in favour of big business according to the Technical Engineering and Electrical Union, which has advised its members to vote No. This swing is an obvious progression with regard to the centralisation of European political power. As fewer law makers rule over more and more people, it becomes easier for multinationals to pressurise, manipulate, and indeed bribe government. In other words, it is difficult for multinationals to implement policies which are biased in their favour when there are a multitude of different governments which need convincing. Democracy is also reduced, due to centralisation, with respect to the electoral process. In order to get elected today in the U.S., you need unbelievably large amounts of money behind you. And this system also makes it easier for tyrants to take control over very large amounts of people, just as Bush has done, and just as Blair is planning to do with respect to the E.U. "I'll be president of Europe if you give me the power - Blair http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/feb/02/world.politics

    "We've never had it so Good"
    Ireland is currently on the crest of a very large wave, and the optimism associated with the Celtic Tiger will inspire many to vote yes. With our low taxation and high immigration, most Irish people have prospered financially as a result of Ireland's economic expansion. Sweden, on the other hand, has traditionally implemented a policy of very high taxation, which is used to maintain wealth throughout Swedish society. As a consequence, there are much fewer social problems here than in other E.U. countries, and this includes problems is areas of Sweden with large migrant populations. The city I work in, for example, has taken more Iraqi immigrants in recent years than the US and Canada combined. In Ireland, we are already seeing a dramatic increase in social problems with regard to those Irish left behind by the Celtic Tiger. And we will continue to see these problems increase. Ireland's migrants are coming from countries with lower standards of living and often lower levels of democracy. As a result, these people are happy to work the jobs that are now beneath us. But the problem is that their children will not be so easily pleased and Ireland will have to do better than simply offering them a job in McDonalds. Many E.U. countries have failed miserably in this regard and the chickens are now coming home to roost. As a result, we are seeing a dramatic increasing in social polarisation in countries like Denmark, The Netherlands, Belgium, the UK and France. The reason these problems have occurred is due to the policies implemented by their respective politicians; the very same politicians who have negotiated the Lisbon Treaty. Therefore, it might appear that Ireland is on a positive footing to some, but we should look to those countries that we are model on in order to gain insight into the Ireland of future generations. And as power is moved further and further away from ordinary people, it will become harder and harder for us to reverse the kinds of mistakes I believe are being made in Europe today.

    For these reasons, I believe the rejection of the Lisbon Treaty is our best interest, as well as that of all Europeans, and I will be a very proud Irishman if we vote No come Friday.


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    We are also sitting on top of one of the largest gas and oil fields in Europe.

    Well, now, that is exciting and dramatic news. I'm sure it was all over the papers in whatever alternative reality it happened in.

    Unfortunately, in this reality, it isn't true. We have very small known reserves.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,209 ✭✭✭ixtlan


    BarraG you point out something that the no side disagrees with. From their position, millions of EU citizens are appalled at their governments for not holding a referendum and want Ireland to vote no.

    The reality as you have described is that the vast majority of people across the EU are happy to let their governments decide how to proceed. The fact that this is the case shows how well the EU has progressed. I won't say works, because people will reply... so why change it? Progressed means that we have changed gradually with the times and with our expansion.

    If we vote no, it's probably only then that the EU public will hear about the Irish referendum. However concern for them should not be the primary motivation to vote yes. There are a lot of good aspects to the treaty which we negotiated for.

    It's true that the EU is of mutual benefit. No one would ever have agreed to a referendum if we were voting just for other states. The fact is that previously the benefit was more obvious in the form of cash. Now we expect the kind of benefits that the previously richer countries expected when they gave us the cash. This should happen as Eastern Europe develops.

    Ix.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,076 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    BarraG wrote: »
    In the last few days, Brian Cowen has stated that Ireland's future will be decided by the Lisbon Treaty Referendum. If, therefore, its ratification is so paramount with regard to the future of Ireland, and indeed Europe, then why are we the only nation voting on it? Surely, in any democracy, people are entitled to decide on issues which fundamentally shape their future, right? A half a billion people now live in the E.U., but only a few million are being asked for their opinion in a referendum being billed by Cowen as the most import in a generation. Either European democracy is well or truly a thing of the past, or Cowen, Kenny and Gilmore are exaggerating the importance of this referendum with a view to sparing their blushes on the corridors of power in Brussels.

    "The rest of Europe will be mad with us if we vote No."
    A few years ago I met a Swede in Limerick and the two of us have been together ever since. I now live in Sweden. So what do Swedes think about the E.U. I hear you ask? Well, Swedes are generally quite proud of the Swedish way of doing things, be it high taxation, the Kronor, personal numbers, an open border with Norway, state owned off-licences that close at 3p.m. on a Saturday, legalised snus, or paid male parental leave of up to a year and a half in duration. So they feel that their lifestyle is under threat by the E.U., right? Well to be honest, I very rarely hear as much as a whisper about the European Union here, and when I do it is usually something negative along the lines of the E.U. wanting to ban snus. And despite the apocalyptic visions being painted by the cowboys in the Dáil back home, I haven't seen anything written about the Lisbon Treaty in Swedish newspapers that wasn't longer that four lines in length. And as for the average person on the street, they don't even know that there is such a thing as the Lisbon Treaty, never mind how they might receive it if they did. Therefore I can reassure you that the people of Sweden will not hate us if we do indeed have the guts to reject this treaty. As far as I'm concerned, a European Union is the idea of mutual respect between all of Europe's peoples. In that context, we should vote as we please, with the expectation that our decision will be respected no matter how we decide to vote.

    "The E.U. has scratched our back, now it’s our turn to scratch its"
    In my opinion, the E.U. invested in Ireland in the exact same fashion that a bank might invest in you when you take out a mortgage with them. In other words, the E.U. invested in Ireland with the intent of benefiting from this investment. And indeed they have benefited. Ireland is one of the top producers of hardware, software and pharmaceutical products in Europe, as well as being the European hub for a whole range of American multinationals. We are also sitting on top of one of the largest gas and oil fields in Europe. European economies have most certainly benefited from Ireland's expansion, not to mention the jobs that have been created for the hundreds of thousands of Europeans who have migrated to Ireland in recent years. But rather than receiving credit in this regard, Irish people are dealt the guilt-trip card by both Irish and foreign politicians. If you really believe that European governments rallied together in a spirit of charity and goodwill with regard to the poor old Irish, then why is it that these very same countries are engaged in the practice of shipping billions of dollars worth of weapons to the third world?

    The pendulum has swung against workers' rights and in favour of big business according to the Technical Engineering and Electrical Union, which has advised its members to vote No. This swing is an obvious progression with regard to the centralisation of European political power. As fewer law makers rule over more and more people, it becomes easier for multinationals to pressurise, manipulate, and indeed bribe government. In other words, it is difficult for multinationals to implement policies which are biased in their favour when there are a multitude of different governments which need convincing. Democracy is also reduced, due to centralisation, with respect to the electoral process. In order to get elected today in the U.S., you need unbelievably large amounts of money behind you. And this system also makes it easier for tyrants to take control over very large amounts of people, just as Bush has done, and just as Blair is planning to do with respect to the E.U. "I'll be president of Europe if you give me the power - Blair http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/feb/02/world.politics

    "We've never had it so Good"
    Ireland is currently on the crest of a very large wave, and the optimism associated with the Celtic Tiger will inspire many to vote yes. With our low taxation and high immigration, most Irish people have prospered financially as a result of Ireland's economic expansion. Sweden, on the other hand, has traditionally implemented a policy of very high taxation, which is used to maintain wealth throughout Swedish society. As a consequence, there are much fewer social problems here than in other E.U. countries, and this includes problems is areas of Sweden with large migrant populations. The city I work in, for example, has taken more Iraqi immigrants in recent years than the US and Canada combined. In Ireland, we are already seeing a dramatic increase in social problems with regard to those Irish left behind by the Celtic Tiger. And we will continue to see these problems increase. Ireland's migrants are coming from countries with lower standards of living and often lower levels of democracy. As a result, these people are happy to work the jobs that are now beneath us. But the problem is that their children will not be so easily pleased and Ireland will have to do better than simply offering them a job in McDonalds. Many E.U. countries have failed miserably in this regard and the chickens are now coming home to roost. As a result, we are seeing a dramatic increasing in social polarisation in countries like Denmark, The Netherlands, Belgium, the UK and France. The reason these problems have occurred is due to the policies implemented by their respective politicians; the very same politicians who have negotiated the Lisbon Treaty. Therefore, it might appear that Ireland is on a positive footing to some, but we should look to those countries that we are model on in order to gain insight into the Ireland of future generations. And as power is moved further and further away from ordinary people, it will become harder and harder for us to reverse the kinds of mistakes I believe are being made in Europe today.

    For these reasons, I believe the rejection of the Lisbon Treaty is our best interest, as well as that of all Europeans, and I will be a very proud Irishman if we vote No come Friday.

    Impressive. Not one single word of your explaination as to why you are voting 'No' has anything to do with what is contained in the Lisbon Treaty whatsover.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    marco_polo wrote: »
    Impressive. Not one single word of your explaination as to why you are voting 'No' has anything to do with what is contained in the Lisbon Treaty whatsover.

    Go easy on him. Don't you know how hard it is to cut and paste from Indymedia?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭Rb


    ixtlan wrote: »
    The reality as you have described is that the vast majority of people across the EU are happy to let their governments decide how to proceed.

    Source? Just because they're not being given the opportunity to vote on this, doesn't mean they're happy to let their representatives make the decision.

    In fact, two countries have already voted no and are being denied a vote this time, would you say the majority of them are happy with this? I doubt it.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭Rb


    humanji wrote: »
    Go easy on him. Don't you know how hard it is to cut and paste from Indymedia?
    Well, since the author of that article is Barra OGríobhtha, it's either himself who's posted here or someone pretending to be him (BarraG). If the former, then since it's his own work I don't see what the problem is in pasting it here given the nature of the forum, if the latter well at least it has made an interesting read.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Rb wrote: »
    Source? Just because they're not being given the opportunity to vote on this, doesn't mean they're happy to let their representatives make the decision.

    In fact, two countries have already voted no and are being denied a vote this time, would you say the majority of them are happy with this? I doubt it.

    Sorry, Rb, are you saying two countries have refused to ratify the Lisbon Treaty?

    intrigued,
    Scofflaw


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,209 ✭✭✭ixtlan


    Rb wrote: »
    Source? Just because they're not being given the opportunity to vote on this, doesn't mean they're happy to let their representatives make the decision.

    I'm just replying to the article itself, where the author says "And as for the average person on the street, they don't even know that there is such a thing as the Lisbon Treaty, never mind how they might receive it if they did."

    This is a comment about Sweden from someone advocating a no. I've heard similar comments regarding people in Denmark and France.

    For better or worse most EU citizens are not engaged with the Lisbon debate at all. Do they want a vote? I don't know. However it's fair to point out that the public is not protesting in the streets across the EU, which is what the no side seems to imply.

    Ix.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭dloob


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Sorry, Rb, are you saying two countries have refused to ratify the Lisbon Treaty?

    intrigued,
    Scofflaw

    He appears to be confusing the European Constitution, which was voted on in France and The Netherlands with Lisbon which was created after that to address the concerns raised by the French and Dutch votes.

    It's a common argument of the No side.

    As regards no votes being held else where, most other countries in the EU don't require referendums on this kind of thing. They elect governments for negotiating treaty's.
    ixtlan wrote: »
    I'm just replying to the article itself, where the author says "And as for the average person on the street, they don't even know that there is such a thing as the Lisbon Treaty, never mind how they might receive it if they did."

    This is a comment about Sweden from someone advocating a no. I've heard similar comments regarding people in Denmark and France.

    For better or worse most EU citizens are not engaged with the Lisbon debate at all. Do they want a vote? I don't know. However it's fair to point out that the public is not protesting in the streets across the EU, which is what the no side seems to imply.

    Ix.

    There were a few protests I think.
    politics.ie had some pictures from an EU wide day of protests.
    Most consisted of 5 - 10 people outside an Irish embassy with a placard.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭Rb


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Sorry, Rb, are you saying two countries have refused to ratify the Lisbon Treaty?

    intrigued,
    Scofflaw
    You know what I meant.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7 BarraG


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Sorry, Rb, are you saying two countries have refused to ratify the Lisbon Treaty?

    intrigued,
    Scofflaw

    In terms of substance, yes!

    “The substance of the constitution is preserved. That is a fact.” Angela Merkel

    The Spanish Prime Minister said - and again, I quote - "We have not let a single substantial point of the Constitutional Treaty go."

    Czech President Vaclav Klaus has said: "Only cosmetic changes have been made and the basic document remains the same."

    Mr Juncker said he supported public debate on the treaty - except in Britain. "I am astonished at those who are afraid of the people: one can always explain that what is in the interest of Europe is in the interests of our countries," he told Belgian newspaper Le Soir. "Britain is different. Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?"

    Giscard d’Estaing: “all the earlier proposals will be in the new text, but will be hidden and disguised in some way”

    /Barra


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Rb wrote: »
    You know what I meant.

    Well, I didn't want to assume that you were simply pretending there'd been no renegotiations after the defeat of the EU Constitution, and that they were exactly the same document - since, as you know, people disagree that this is the case, and you'd be trying to pretend that there was no debate.

    charitably,
    Scofflaw


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    BarraG wrote: »
    In terms of substance, yes!/Barra

    Yes, I've seen all the quotes, thanks. The institutional changes certainly were preserved - indeed, the Irish government fought pretty hard to ensure they were kept, because they're a good deal for Ireland.

    Merely pointing out that the substance is preserved does not tell us anything about whether what was changed was what was objected to. French exit polls showed that people did object to d'Estaing's flag and anthem, and indeed to the name "constitution". The Dutch and French both had negotiating teams engaged in the renegotiations for the Treaty, and I have pointed out elsewhere that they feel they got what was necessary to make the Treaty acceptable.

    regards,
    Scofflaw


  • Registered Users Posts: 7 BarraG


    dloob wrote: »
    He appears to be confusing the European Constitution, which was voted on in France and The Netherlands with Lisbon which was created after that to address the concerns raised by the French and Dutch votes.

    It's a common argument of the No side.

    There the same documents in substance. The people of France and The Netherlands are not being asked to vote this time round due to this very obvious fact...

    When you talk about addressing the concerns raised by the French and Dutch votes, do you mean that the Lisbon treaty was concocted to give the impression that something new was on offer, or can you specify for us how the French and Dutch concerns have been addressed in this new document?

    Giscard d’Estaing: “all the earlier proposals will be in the new text, but will be hidden and disguised in some way”


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    BarraG wrote: »
    Giscard d’Estaing: “all the earlier proposals will be in the new text, but will be hidden and disguised in some way”
    Would you care to point out where in the text of the Lisbon Treaty the proposals for an official EU flag and anthem are hidden and disguised?


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    What confuses me is this:

    If the failed constitution only needed tweaking (like removing the flag and anthem for the french etc.) then why didn't they just tweak it and not create the same substance by amending all the previous treaties so as to make the Lisbon Treaty nigh on impossible to read (without having all the other treaties to hand)?

    I would rather have had the constitution to vote on as it was a 'clean slate' document and not an amending one like Lisbon. You'd have been able to read it much more easily. Why did they feel the need to go the amendment route?

    I'll be honest-the cynic in me tells me it was done to make sure it needed as few public ratifications by referendum as possible. If the constitution/Lisbon was/is so great then surely silly little things like flags and anthems could have been removed and it put back to the dutch and the french electorate...if of course it was just these symbolic things that people had a problem with.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,097 ✭✭✭✭zuroph


    BarraG wrote: »
    I now live in Sweden.

    you shouldnt be voting.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    murphaph wrote: »
    What confuses me is this:

    If the failed constitution only needed tweaking (like removing the flag and anthem for the french etc.) then why didn't they just tweak it and not create the same substance by amending all the previous treaties so as to make the Lisbon Treaty nigh on impossible to read (without having all the other treaties to hand)?

    I would rather have had the constitution to vote on as it was a 'clean slate' document and not an amending one like Lisbon. You'd have been able to read it much more easily. Why did they feel the need to go the amendment route?

    I'll be honest-the cynic in me tells me it was done to make sure it needed as few public ratifications by referendum as possible. If the constitution/Lisbon was/is so great then surely silly little things like flags and anthems could have been removed and it put back to the dutch and the french electorate...if of course it was just these symbolic things that people had a problem with.

    Well, the given reason was that people objected to the idea of a constitution, the word constitution, and the 'statehood' elements - and certainly people did object to those things.

    Having said that, they weren't the only things that were changed. The Dutch certainly went in with specific requests, and got them.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    BarraG wrote: »
    There the same documents in substance. The people of France and The Netherlands are not being asked to vote this time round due to this very obvious fact...

    Or because referendums are time consuming, expensive and a pain in the ass for the electorate? Given a cheap alternative, you can bet the Irish government would have prefered the parliamentary ratification option too.
    BarraG wrote: »
    When you talk about addressing the concerns raised by the French and Dutch votes, do you mean that the Lisbon treaty was concocted to give the impression that something new was on offer, or can you specify for us how the French and Dutch concerns have been addressed in this new document?

    He mentioned several as specified by exit poll data.
    BarraG wrote: »
    Giscard d’Estaing: “all the earlier proposals will be in the new text, but will be hidden and disguised in some way”

    So... where, for example, are the references to the European Anthem in the Lisbon Treaty? Edit: wow, someone beat me to that comment by several hours.


  • Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭Morf3h


    Here's my take on the Lisbon Treaty,

    I've been doing my college finals for the past 4 weeks and so have had very little exposure to the whole propaganda and media hype etc etc. I voted yes today because of one reason really:

    The only political party opposing the referendum are Sinn Fein, and the only organization of the same disposition are Libertas, a privately funded body with nothing but resentment for the european community and politicians in general.

    I'm bad at debating and public speaking and expressing my opinions and all that but anyway that's basically why i voted yes.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Well, the given reason was that people objected to the idea of a constitution, the word constitution, and the 'statehood' elements - and certainly people did object to those things.

    Having said that, they weren't the only things that were changed. The Dutch certainly went in with specific requests, and got them.
    ....but did anyone check back with the dutch people that they were happy with the new deal? Nope. The dutch people voted no to the constitution. Did the dutch government ask each and every one of them what they wanted changed? Of course not, that would be logistically impossible-they should have taken straw polls, had the constitution amended as needed, and put back to public plebiscite to see if they were truly satisfied with the new deal.


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