Good example of 'speaking the truth in love'

tommy2bad · 20-02-2012 9:56pm

philologos, nice post but misses my point.
If we as Christians are to be credible we must live the faith.
If Christianity as a religion is to be credible it should at the least have a consistent moral position. It dose not and never did. This isn't a problem for me, I don't think a religion is a set of morals but to someone outside looking in?
You and PDN do the predictable thing of saying "but it doesn't mean what you think it means" OK so what? It meant exactly what I think it means when it suited.
The other big excuse is "but that was then..." Again so what? either God is consistent or hes changeable. We always claim consistency but again the evidence is against that so we fall back on "but it doesn't mean what you think it means"
Lets call a spade a bloody shovel; people made it up as the went as it suited, some to advance their own ends, some to advance their cause, some even, I know it's hard to believe, thought long and hard about right and wrong and still screwed up.
It's what we do, muddel through.
Sounds atheistic but I am not. This is about grace. Defending the people who f..ked up dose not help. Pretending that the bible is the same now as it was then?? Come on we cant even read it as it would have been read 50 years ago never mind 2 or 3 thousand years.
Im not a tod interested in how we understand the bible now because thats not how it was read then.
The fact is that people understood slavery in the bible as the same as the African slave trade and used biblical text to justify that. Some didn't but that cant be used as evidence of biblical inveteracy if another view held sway.

philologos · 20-02-2012 10:08pm

It does have a consistent moral position. It's not just one point, but several posts throughout the thread. I believe that the Torah is actually encourages freedom for those who were taken in slavery. A law which allows clear protections for those who are being mistreated by their employers / masters is a moral law. A law which allows for people to make restitution for their debts if they have stolen in particular and a law which protects people from mistreatment at the same time, IMO is a fair and reasonable law.

There is no state of Israel any longer, which means that Christians live within societies rather than ruling them, but the ethical principles of the Torah IMO are sound even if they have different consequences following Christ. Christianity is a powerful ethical guide, and my morality is firmly based on it.

tommy2bad · 20-02-2012 10:25pm

A law which allows clear protections for those who are being mistreated by their employers / masters is a moral law. A law which allows for people to make restitution for their debts if they have stolen in particular and a law which protects people from mistreatment at the same time, IMO is a fair and reasonable law.

Crap if it just rules for implementing evil.
Thats the kind of talk I would expect of a seperate but equal apologist, not a Christian who professes the Gospel.

but the ethical principles of the Torah IMO are sound even if they have different consequences following Christ.

By the by, did you hear the Jewish woman on newstalk lastnight? She has written a book on the Torah and was very good at explaining it .(of to google the book now, thanks for the remind)

philologos · 20-02-2012 10:27pm

I don't believe that the Torah is evil as a law system. Again, I've explained rather clearly as has PDN as to how it differs from colonial slavery. In the thread I linked to, I've spent a lot of time examining it in comparison to colonial slavery, and looking to what Paul wrote about the subject in the New Testament. I'd recommend you take the time to read some of it and then come back and criticise my POV.

tommy2bad · 20-02-2012 10:34pm

philologos ;
I'd recommend you take the time to read some of it and then come back and criticise my POV.

But your POV is total acceptance of the bible as meaning what you say it means. As I said somewhat circular. I don't take that view.
I'm not saying the Torah was evil but if it merely set rules for the facilitating of evil...

The Torah-Sunday 19th February
The Torah-Sunday 19th February
Duno if a podcast is up yet, my interwebs is too slow for the newstalk site tonight.

philologos · 20-02-2012 11:13pm

My POV is really simple. It's a simple case. Consider my argument and PDN's argument before dismissing it. We also need to decide if we are going to discuss this how much value are we going to place on the Bible from a scale to high importance to low importance. If you are going for low importance, we start to move away from Christianity essentially as far as I can tell. Perhaps you disagree. If so I'd like to know a little bit about why you might.

If you do regard the Bible as being of high importance and you disagree with how I view what's on its pages, that's entirely different to not valuing it highly at all. So we need to find out what you're arguing. If we disagree with what's on it's pages I have a very simple rule that I have. If someone can show me Biblically that I am wrong, I will accept it humbly and thank them because they have shown me how I can know and love my God a little better. There's been a few situations like that in my own life.

However, to claim it's my way or the highway is false. It's Jesus' way that we follow. If you think I'm wrong, that's fine, I'm not going to point you to me, I'm going to point you to God and His word.

lmaopml · 21-02-2012 12:07am

I think the debate around the 'Problem of Evil' is vast - Slavery is a tricky subject, considering how absolutely rampant it was and ingrained in the human psych - and accepted too, by virtually the entire world.

We, in Ireland where whisked off too at one stage from our beds to be slaves at one time, much like many different western nations, so I suppose it's something worth sorting out in our minds in relation to our faith, and worth exploring further.

In fairness, this is not something I have looked into vastly. I'm aware of the slave trades, indentured service etc. - and even today a subtle form of slavery exists everywhere imo. some not so subtle.

However, the way I have considered it so far, is in light of humanity and the fall and exactly what the message was in the OT - it was pretty much to, not treat a 'slave' as anything less than a human, which did happen in the Pagan world, if you were different, you were basically fodder.

It's very difficult to actually place yourself in those times and wonder at God's wisdom - why he didn't just click his fingers and make everything 'ok' for everybody or say something like the proclamation of independance and make all people free. He did let the Jewish people themselves be slaves for nigh on 400 years? I wonder why? Perhaps that's what it took - the first pebble in an ocean of change.

However, belief in God, I firmly believe shows him like a Father pretty much of some pretty wild kids, who guides but with a firm hand - and the fulfillment of the OT came in the form of Jesus, who came at a time and place that was obviously perfect for it's purpose - he said to 'render onto Ceasar that which is Ceasars, and render onto God that which is Gods' - That went for everybody, no matter whom, slave or free person. We're actually meant to pick up our crosses here to follow him - I think the world would have been vastly different without Christ, he seems to awaken in people a sense of equality among all people, but with a deep humility too that we are still part of this world with all it's imperfections.

I think this is something I would like to explore a little deeper though. I liked your posts Phil on the subject - Got a kindle for Christmas, and I think I may explore Amazon on the topic - if anybody has any recommendations I'd be glad to hear them too.

Andrewf20 · 21-02-2012 3:29am

philologos wrote: »

I believe that we are inclined towards evil, and because of our sin, we are unable to be regarded as wholly good. We are totally depraved in so far as there is no means for us to save ourselves from our sin.

I dont think I agree with this entirely. As Hitchens said, we would not have gotten this far as humans over 10s of thousands of years if we didnt have some level of compassion for others that precedes religious doctrine.

PDN wrote: »

In other words, the doctrine of total depravity declares that even our best actions are still tinged with selfishness (as when we put money in a charity collection box, but then hope that someone saw us doing it and thought us to be generous). It also declares that we lack the goodness to pull ourselves up to heaven by our own bootstraps, but we need the grace of God to reveal the Gospel to us.

But doing a good deed in the hope of eternal reward in the next life / to please God could also be considered a depraved act by this definition. I cant think of an act of kindness done by a believer that could not be done by a non believer. I also feel a non believer who does a good deed is perhaps more noble if they dont expect reward in this life or the next.

philologos · 21-02-2012 7:55am

^^ Christianity doesn't teach that we do what is good to please God. In fact in terms of Christian living our good deeds have been planned by God in advance:

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing;it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Nothing we can do can bring us into God's good books. The only way we can be saved is by Jesus' death and resurrection. It would be a misunderstanding to say that we earn our way to heaven in terms of Christianity.

You seem to have also misunderstood my position. It's not based on "religious doctrine", but rather on God's role in creation. The very fact that we can do anything good at all is because 1) God has told us what good and evil is, 2) That He has given us a conscience to work under those principles and finally 3) what is evil is simply what goes against God's standard for how we should live in this world (what is good). That's the framework by which most Christians understand ethics.

PDN · 21-02-2012 8:29am

Andrewf20 wrote: »

I dont think I agree with this entirely. As Hitchens said, we would not have gotten this far as humans over 10s of thousands of years if we didnt have some level of compassion for others that precedes religious doctrine.
.

While quoting Hitchens as an authority is particularly pointless in this Forum, it is also pretty irrelevant. Nobody here has argued that you can't feel compassion without religious doctrine.

But doing a good deed in the hope of eternal reward in the next life / to please God could also be considered a depraved act by this definition. I cant think of an act of kindness done by a believer that could not be done by a non believer. I also feel a non believer who does a good deed is perhaps more noble if they dont expect reward in this life or the next.

That might be true, but again it is totally irrelevant. I don't believe that doing a good deed to gain a reward in the next world is a good motivation for anything.

Maybe the Atheist/Christian debate thread would be a better place for you to offer up these ideas rather than inserting them randomly here?

Fanny Cradock · 21-02-2012 9:28am

Andrewf20 wrote: »

I cant think of an act of kindness done by a believer that could not be done by a non believer. I also feel a non believer who does a good deed is perhaps more noble if they dont expect reward in this life or the next.

No, I can't think of an single act either. Then again I've personally never encountered any Christian who did. It's a superficially compelling argument that shows a deep misunderstanding of what Christianity says. It's also debatable about whether all Christians do good deeds because they want some reward in the afterlife. Any Christians I've met who work out there on the front lines do good because they are driven to do so out of loving compassion for the people they care for. They see charity as a necessary extension of their faith, not in the crude way you imagine.

Benny_Cake · 21-02-2012 9:32am

lmaopml wrote: »

I think this is something I would like to explore a little deeper though. I liked your posts Phil on the subject - Got a kindle for Christmas, and I think I may explore Amazon on the topic - if anybody has any recommendations I'd be glad to hear them too.

Since you have a Kindle you might try the autobiography of Frederick Douglass, which is available for free online. He was an escaped slave who went on to become one of the great abolitionists. Although he was a Christian himself, he was despairing about how many of the slaveholders who proclaimed their faith the loudest and attended Methodist camp meetings could commit the cruellest of acts. A number of American denominations split over the issue of slavery, most notably the Methodists and Baptists.

Andrewf20 · 21-02-2012 3:40pm

PDN wrote: »

Nobody here has argued that you can't feel compassion without religious doctrine.

I agree, however some people say they believe that we are inclined towards evil which I cant entirely agree with.

PDN wrote: »

That might be true, but again it is totally irrelevant. I don't believe that doing a good deed to gain a reward in the next world is a good motivation for anything.

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

They see charity as a necessary extension of their faith, not in the crude way you imagine.

Its hard to prove for sure whether people in general do good deeds out of a hope of eternal reward or not (i.e. theres no way of knowing the minds of others for sure), but I believe its plausible that some religious people do good with thoughts of pleasing God in mind. I have been one. However I do believe you (Fanny Cradock) are right in that alot of people you mentioned do charity work due to honest compassion to help others.

PDN wrote: »

Maybe the Atheist/Christian debate thread would be a better place for you to offer up these ideas rather than inserting them randomly here?

I have a Christian background and am interested in the arguments in alot of forums & debates. My comments were in response to items mentioned in this forum.

Northclare · 21-02-2012 4:01pm

Can anyone explain Luke 19 Verse 27

Andrewf20 · 21-02-2012 4:08pm

philologos wrote: »

Christianity doesn't teach that we do what is good to please God. In fact in terms of Christian living our good deeds have been planned by God in advance:

Nothing we can do can bring us into God's good books. The only way we can be saved is by Jesus' death and resurrection. It would be a misunderstanding to say that we earn our way to heaven in terms of Christianity.

I have grown up in a Christian family and have attended Mass most of my life however these ideas you mention were never made clear to me. I have never heard of our good deeds being planned in advance. I was always taught that we should do good deeds do please God. Its frustrating that so much ambiguity can occur in relation to this. I guess its a matter of interpretation - for example - different homilies from different priests presenting the Bibles teachings in different ways from parish to parish.

tommy2bad · 21-02-2012 4:39pm

Andrewf20 wrote: »

I have grown up in a Christian family and have attended Mass most of my life however these ideas you mention were never made clear to me. I have never heard of our good deeds being planned in advance. I was always taught that we should do good deeds do please God. Its frustrating that so much ambiguity can occur in relation to this. I guess its a matter of interpretation - for example - different homilies from different priests presenting the Bibles teachings in different ways from parish to parish.

No it not down to individual priests, as you said mass I'l presume you were brought up catholic and thoes ideas are not the main focus of catholic teaching.

PDN · 21-02-2012 4:40pm

Northclare wrote: »

Can anyone explain Luke 19 Verse 27

Yes, Jesus told a parable that taught us that we should use our gifts and talents for good, rather than letting them lie dormant. Parables are illustrative stories that feature fictional characters. In this parable the fictional character of a king condemned his servant to death, demonstrating the adverse consequences that can come from not using our talents and resources.

A similar use of violent death in a story would be in the tale that my Dad told me when I was little, about the boy who cried 'Wolf'. Unlike Aesop's version, in my Dad's version the boy got eaten by the wolf. Even though I was only 5 years old I instantly understood the meaning of the story. If you tell lies and create unnecessary alarm then no-one will believe you, even when you are telling the truth. Even at 5-years old, I would have been an exceptionally moronic child if I had thought my Dad was advocating that all liars should be fed to wolves.

And so with the parable of Jesus. Only an exceptionally moronic person would take it as meaning that Jesus wanted people to be killed. Amazingly enough, at least once a year, we get the occasional atheist who claims that must be the meaning of the words of Jesus. I am unable to make up my mind whether they really are exceptionally moronic or whether they are just trolls taking the pee.

Northclare · 21-02-2012 4:59pm

Thanks for that it makes sense to me now

I'm learning loads from these discussions.

I also like the Sufi stories in Islam too.

HamletOrHecuba · 21-02-2012 5:12pm

Northclare wrote: »

Thanks for that it makes sense to me now

I'm learning loads from these discussions.

I also like the Sufi stories in Islam too.

If you havent already you should check out the Hassidic stories, they contain a lot of wisdom as well as being entertaining.

Sufism is interesting because a lot of its practices and "spirit" were actually taken over Christianity, the below is a really good book on its relationship primarily to Hesychasm. There is another good book on the subject but I cant remember its name.

http://www.amazon.com/Paths-Heart-Sufism-Christian-East/dp/0941532437

lmaopml · 22-02-2012 12:34am

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Since you have a Kindle you might try the autobiography of Frederick Douglass, which is available for free online. He was an escaped slave who went on to become one of the great abolitionists. Although he was a Christian himself, he was despairing about how many of the slaveholders who proclaimed their faith the loudest and attended Methodist camp meetings could commit the cruellest of acts. A number of American denominations split over the issue of slavery, most notably the Methodists and Baptists.

Thanks Benny, I'll download it - even better when they're free

philologos · 22-02-2012 12:49am

Andrewf20 wrote: »

I have grown up in a Christian family and have attended Mass most of my life however these ideas you mention were never made clear to me. I have never heard of our good deeds being planned in advance. I was always taught that we should do good deeds do please God. Its frustrating that so much ambiguity can occur in relation to this. I guess its a matter of interpretation - for example - different homilies from different priests presenting the Bibles teachings in different ways from parish to parish.

I think the passage is pretty clear about what God has done for us. I'm sure people might disagree, but how else am I to interpret that passage of Scripture?

If the Bible is God speaking to us, isn't it the best place to start seeking after Him?

The passage is Ephesians 2:8-10 if you want to look it up later and have a look.

lmaopml · 24-02-2012 1:43am

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Since you have a Kindle you might try the autobiography of Frederick Douglass, which is available for free online. He was an escaped slave who went on to become one of the great abolitionists. Although he was a Christian himself, he was despairing about how many of the slaveholders who proclaimed their faith the loudest and attended Methodist camp meetings could commit the cruellest of acts. A number of American denominations split over the issue of slavery, most notably the Methodists and Baptists.

I had to post after reading this book Benny. It will stay with me for a long time - and would recommend it to anybody who dares take on the emotions experienced when reading of this former slaves journey from slavery with it's dehumanising character to emancipation and beyond. I'm gonna buy the rest of his books, a complete fan of the wonderful Frederick Douglass!

I also noted and am quite proud to say that he was a great admirer of our very own Daniel O' Connell who he spoke of in the book and met too in his life time - another abolitionist. It's not something that I was ever taught about in history,this part of Daniel's own friendship with Frederick, or at least never got into any great detail about, so I found it a fascinating insight into the strenght of mind and spirit of the abolitionists of the period against all odds and all foes -

Hard to believe these things happened - the fact slavery is still going on and people trafficking should make everybody hopping mad enough to do something, anything small even to help stop it.

http://www.irishcentral.com/IrishAmerica/The-Irish-Abolitionist-Daniel-OConnell-125574733.html

I know this is slightly off topic mods, but just a quick response - If it needs to be reassigned or anything no problem.

Benny_Cake · 24-02-2012 11:20am

Glad you liked it lmaopml - I had never heard of him until I started reading up a bit on slavery myself. Which is quite crazy really, given his start in life and what he achieved he has got to be one of the greatest Americans who ever lived. Tg4 made a documentary about his friendship with Daniel O'Connell which they repeat everyone often, that's worth seeing as well.

All thismight not relate directly with the original topic of the thread, but Douglass was keenly aware of how his contemporaries could use the Bible to justify the evil of slavery by cherrypicking select passages. More recently, the Dutch Reformed Church in South Africa used many of the same passages to justify apartheid. All of which illustrates the danger of using scripture to advance our own prejudices and self-interest - and this is a trap that both fundamentalist and progressive Christians can fall into. Thankfully God gave us reason and the Holy Spirit, it is unfortunate that the slaveholders of Frederick Douglass time didn't listen to that.

PDN · 26-02-2012 10:29am

lmaopml wrote: »

I had to post after reading this book Benny. It will stay with me for a long time - and would recommend it to anybody who dares take on the emotions experienced when reading of this former slaves journey from slavery with it's dehumanising character to emancipation and beyond. I'm gonna buy the rest of his books, a complete fan of the wonderful Frederick Douglass!

I also noted and am quite proud to say that he was a great admirer of our very own Daniel O' Connell who he spoke of in the book and met too in his life time - another abolitionist. It's not something that I was ever taught about in history,this part of Daniel's own friendship with Frederick, or at least never got into any great detail about, so I found it a fascinating insight into the strenght of mind and spirit of the abolitionists of the period against all odds and all foes -

Hard to believe these things happened - the fact slavery is still going on and people trafficking should make everybody hopping mad enough to do something, anything small even to help stop it.

http://www.irishcentral.com/IrishAmerica/The-Irish-Abolitionist-Daniel-OConnell-125574733.html

I know this is slightly off topic mods, but just a quick response - If it needs to be reassigned or anything no problem.

Another free Kindle book from Amazon you might enjoy concerning slavery is "Harriet Tubman - the Moses of Her People" by Sarah H. Bradford. An amazing story of the illiterate escaped slave who established the famous 'Underground Railroad' to take slaves to freedom.

lmaopml · 29-02-2012 11:11am

PDN wrote: »

Another free Kindle book from Amazon you might enjoy concerning slavery is "Harriet Tubman - the Moses of Her People" by Sarah H. Bradford. An amazing story of the illiterate escaped slave who established the famous 'Underground Railroad' to take slaves to freedom.

PDN, I downloaded this book on Harriet, and really enjoyed reading about this woman who had such a strong trusting and humble faith in all her adversity, and the kindest heart - the woman was a living Saint for sure, an inspiration! The way the slaves had to bury their dead at night and how they went about that had me in tears..

I'm on a roll reading books on the topic of slavery, particularly in relation to the States and the abolitionists - it's fascinating and enlightening - some very real live super heroes, can't help but feel the Spirit of God at work, and some people who truly gave themselves over to his will for good.

wolfsbane · 29-02-2012 7:20pm

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Glad you liked it lmaopml - I had never heard of him until I started reading up a bit on slavery myself. Which is quite crazy really, given his start in life and what he achieved he has got to be one of the greatest Americans who ever lived. Tg4 made a documentary about his friendship with Daniel O'Connell which they repeat everyone often, that's worth seeing as well.

All thismight not relate directly with the original topic of the thread, but Douglass was keenly aware of how his contemporaries could use the Bible to justify the evil of slavery by cherrypicking select passages. More recently, the Dutch Reformed Church in South Africa used many of the same passages to justify apartheid. All of which illustrates the danger of using scripture to advance our own prejudices and self-interest - and this is a trap that both fundamentalist and progressive Christians can fall into. Thankfully God gave us reason and the Holy Spirit, it is unfortunate that the slaveholders of Frederick Douglass time didn't listen to that.

Yes, even good Christians need to beware of the deceitfulness of their fallen nature. We are so good at justifying ourselves, making our rights more important than the rights of others. Justifying evil even, if it protects our prosperity.

This world is the enemy of God - and Christians are constantly the object of Satan's plots to subvert or destroy us. It can take many years for that to sink in to thick heads like mine. We assume because we are sincere that every thought we get must be right. That's why the Bible tells us to: Test all things; hold fast what is good. 1 Thessalonians 5:22

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Deuteronomy 24:14 “You shall not oppress a hired servant who is poor and needy, whether one of your brethren or one of the aliens who is in your land within your gates. 15 Each day you shall give him his wages, and not let the sun go down on it, for he is poor and has set his heart on it; lest he cry out against you to the Lord, and it be sin to you.

tommy2bad · 29-02-2012 8:07pm

This world is the enemy of God

Damn fool to create it then.

wolfsbane · 29-02-2012 10:46pm

tommy2bad wrote: »

Damn fool to create it then.

So you don't think free-will should have been given to man! OK, I respect your opinion - but I'm sure God knew best.

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Romans 11:33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

tommy2bad · 29-02-2012 11:26pm

Whats free will got to do with it, the statement was 'This world is the enemy of God'
I disagree with that supposition. If this world was the enemy of God why did he create it?
Do you see the disjoint here? Sometimes simplistic sound bites deserve a sarky retort, this is one of them times.

Genesis 1:31
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good

wolfsbane · 03-03-2012 9:30pm

tommy2bad wrote: »

Whats free will got to do with it, the statement was 'This world is the enemy of God'
I disagree with that supposition. If this world was the enemy of God why did he create it?
Do you see the disjoint here? Sometimes simplistic sound bites deserve a sarky retort, this is one of them times.

This world is the enemy of God since its Fall into sin. It was not created sinful. But it was created with free-will.

Since you questioned why God would have created the world if it were now His enemy, I assumed you questioned His wisdom in giving free-will. I gather by your reply that you did not know the world was created sin-free and at peace with God.

Now you know better.

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Genesis 1:31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—

Good example of 'speaking the truth in love'

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