HID Lights in the NCT

crossy · 22-01-2014 1:39pm #1

Hi everyone,

Today I came across a post on Facebook saying HID kits are no longer legal as of 2014 and wont pass an NCT.

It says they will pass however if you have a water jet spraying on the headlight and a headlight balancing kit.

Does anyone know anything about this or has anyone passed with HIDs in their car this year?

Thanks

challengemaster · 22-01-2014 1:43pm

http://www.ncts.ie/NCT%20Manual%20Revise%20May%202012.pdf

Search (Ctrl + F) for HID

antodeco · 22-01-2014 1:48pm

Looking at it there, it appears that has been in force since 2012?

bazz26 · 22-01-2014 1:58pm

All they are doing in enforcing existing rules around HID lights which are required to come from the factory with self leveling adjustment and water cleaning. Aftermarket HID kits fitted very rarely will have these fitted which is what they are checking for now.

pa990 · 22-01-2014 1:59pm

about bloody time

antodeco · 22-01-2014 1:59pm

Ah balls. I upgraded my whole setup, and they are put into projectors as oppose to just the sidelights, so no stupid dazzling effect. Ho hum, guess ill be ripping that out and putting in the candle-like bulbs!

Mycroft H · 22-01-2014 2:12pm

From looking at the NCT manual, it's also a fail for a HID bulb to be fitted in a non-HID headlamp.

Nor more silly Civics driving around with dazzling headlights.

Dord · 22-01-2014 2:15pm

Mycroft H wrote: »

From looking at the NCT manual, it's also a fail for a HID bulb to be fitted in a non-HID headlamp.

Nor more silly Civics driving around with dazzling headlights.

That is, if they actually NCT the silly Civics! :rolleyes:

BMJD · 22-01-2014 2:15pm

Mycroft H wrote: »

From looking at the NCT manual, it's also a fail for a HID bulb to be fitted in a non-HID headlamp.

Nor more silly Civics driving around with dazzling headlights.

...until they swap then back in 5 minutes later

Wibbs · 22-01-2014 2:16pm

This very subject lately came up in the Upgrades and Audio forum. The NCT manual clearly states that no HID setup will pass without self leveling and washers. However from the factory my car has neither and HID's and has never failed, nor was any comment made.

I suspect/hope that it only applies to cars after a particular date when EU legislation came in and any cars with HID's fitted as standard from the manufacturers minus these two requirements are OK and will pass. Like I say mine has and a couple of people I know in a similar boat have passed. It seems the NCT guys on the ground have the common sense to understand this.

I hope this is the case anyway as it would be utterly daft to retrospectively fail cars that were built like this outa the box(they'd also have to fail older models without cat converters, ABS etc too, going by this logic). Then again I'd not put it past the bodies responsible, citing "safety" or somesuch nonsense.

PS my car passed in 2013 with HID's minus washers and levelers.

corktina · 22-01-2014 2:18pm

BMJD wrote: »

...until they swap then back in 5 minutes later

yep most of them but just maybe we'll have a few less on the roads.maybe the Gards will start pulling a few of them now

BMJD · 22-01-2014 2:19pm

I think catalytic converters are only required on post-1992 cars.

Pappacharlie · 22-01-2014 2:26pm

Just to let you know my 2003 VW Passat with 220,000 miles and HID lights passed the NCT on Jan 5th. My next door neighbour failed with HID's a week later.

Wibbs · 22-01-2014 2:28pm

Pappacharlie wrote: »

My next door neighbour failed with HID's a week later.

What did they fail on? Focusing, something else? Were the neighbours HID's factory fitted and they failed it for no washers? If that was the case I'd kick up an unholy bloody stink about it, because if they actually start pulling this BS a fair amount of perfectly fine older cars are gonna be off the road.

crossy · 22-01-2014 2:50pm

Thanks everyone for the response. Was wondering because in 2013 I put 2 cars through the NCT.
One with factory fitted HIDs and one with after market. Both of them passed.

Will be good to see what happens the two cars in the NCT next month.:)

DuckSlice · 22-01-2014 2:57pm

Thank The Lord they are tightening up the laws on HID's. It's only last week I nearly had an accident because I was dazzled by some idiot with them in. Car was pulling out a side road, idiot with HID's dazzling me and I just seen the car in time. I also must add that the fella pulling out was an idiot aswell

antodeco · 22-01-2014 3:20pm

See this is part of the problem. I despise HID lgihts in non HID headlights. However, I replaced them with HID projectors, so they have a manual levelling and dont piss the light all over the place.

crossy · 22-01-2014 3:28pm

antodeco wrote: »

See this is part of the problem. I despise HID lgihts in non HID headlights. However, I replaced them with HID projectors, so they have a manual levelling and dont piss the light all over the place.

Well I have a BMW which has projectors in the lights. Should this be ok?

Chimaera · 22-01-2014 3:57pm

crossy wrote: »

Well I have a BMW which has projectors in the lights. Should this be ok?

If they're projectors designed for halogen bulbs, they'll be less bad than HIDs used in reflector headlamps designed for halogen bulbs, but they're still not ideal.

The issue is that the light pattern from a halogen filament is different to that produced by a HID capsule, so a lamp designed for one will be sub-optimal when used with the other.

Projectors are a bit better than reflectors at collecting up the scattered light and keeping it focused which is why HIDs in those are less of a problem.

This guy has some good info on lighting: http://danielsternlighting.com/tech/bulbs/Hid/HID.html

goz83 · 18-02-2014 6:44pm

I have a Mitsubishi FTO GPX with aftermarket HID lights. I bought the car 2 years ago with HIDs but replaced the set as one side was shot.

The FTO GPvR comes with factory HIDS. If I was able to replace my lenses from a GPvR, would this be acceptable do you think? The standard bulbs are very dull and in my opinion, are dangerous. The HID kit in the FTO is not blinding. I am a bit pissed off that nothing was said about these new rules. They could have text people who had already booked in. I booked in December and got tested today.

Mycroft H · 18-02-2014 6:54pm

Did they fail you?

Wibbs · 18-02-2014 7:18pm

I have my NCT coming up this Sunday, so I wonder will any comment about my non leveling, non washing factory HID's be made? I'll report back anyway, though I doubt anything will be said as the car has passed every NCT since 07.

Paddy@CIRL · 18-02-2014 7:26pm

My father's 2008 S40 passed the test two weeks ago with HIDs in the factory projector headlamps. My own car passed nearly two years ago with HIDs in aftermarket projector headlamps but I'm not all that positive it's going to pass this time around. If it fails, I'll refit the original halogen lights for the re-test and retrofit a washing and levelling system for the HIDs after that.

In over two years of having them in the car and driving around Ireland, UK, France, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany and Luxembourg, I've never once been flashed or had a complaint about them. The difference they make in the dark is, pardon the cliché, night and day.

listermint · 18-02-2014 7:32pm

Wibbs wrote: »

I have my NCT coming up this Sunday, so I wonder will any comment about my non leveling, non washing factory HID's be made? I'll report back anyway, though I doubt anything will be said as the car has passed every NCT since 07.

This doesnt matter a jot, I know of several people failed due to HIDs with no washers etc. They are clamping completely down on this since January. There is now major enforcement of this across all NCT centres of the handbook. Were as it was previously very lax about certain sections in the handbook.

Wibbs · 18-02-2014 7:58pm

listermint wrote: »

This doesnt matter a jot, I know of several people failed due to HIDs with no washers etc. They are clamping completely down on this since January. There is now major enforcement of this across all NCT centres of the handbook. Were as it was previously very lax about certain sections in the handbook.

Eh did you miss the important part where I said my HID's are not aftermarket but factory fit as standard? If they do "clamp down" on them? 1) they'll have a fight on their hands with me as you can't retrospectively apply a regulation like this and I have plenty of time on my hands and access to solictors. This would akin to the stupidity of insisting pre mid 90s cars have to be fitted with catalytic converters, ABS etc because this became regulation subsequently 2) This will include quite the number of car models produced before the mid noughties also with factory fitted HID's minus the washers and levelers, including some higher end cars. IIRC quite the number of Hondas, Mercs, Beemers, Audis fall into this category(a mate has a 2004 Merc with HID's and no washers, dunno about self leveling TBH and his passed a few months ago).

Technoprisoner · 18-02-2014 8:02pm

bazz26 wrote: »

All they are doing in enforcing existing rules around HID lights which are required to come from the factory with self leveling adjustment and water cleaning. Aftermarket HID kits fitted very rarely will have these fitted which is what they are checking for now.

the lancer evo came with xenon lights and no washers

Wibbs · 18-02-2014 8:05pm

As did my Integra type R DC2(DC5 the same IIRC). Ditto for my mates early noughties Mercedes. I'd bet it's a long list.

Tropheus · 18-02-2014 8:17pm

My father-in-law's Passat has HIDs in projector headlamps and passed the NCT two weeks ago. All they are interested in is headlight alignment.

As I mentioned in another thread, they may be able to check for headlamp washers, but I don't see how they would check for self levelling.

Wibbs · 18-02-2014 8:18pm

it seems some of our UK neighbours have had this issue with factory fitted HID's, particularly up north of the border here. http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/35636/watchdog-unfair-mot-failures Mitzi Evo failing it's MOT because it didn't have the (later)regulation parts. Daftness beyond daftness. Bloody moronic jobsworths.

Interestingly take a glance through the NCT requirements for other devices, namely windscreen washers. Get this; (8) windscreen washers (where fitted) are not working or not correctly aimed. Emphasis mine. So if they get a car from god knows where or when that has no windscreen washers that's OK boss, but they may fail a large enough chunk of older cars for not having windscreen washers on their effin headlights(and no mention of where fitted)? Which would be the more dangerous? Answers on a postcard please...

Paddy@CIRL · 18-02-2014 8:26pm

From reading on BMW Driver, you can get a letter from a main dealer to say that XYZ car came with xenons but never with washers / auto-adjustment and this is fine with the NCT.

djimi · 18-02-2014 8:30pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Eh did you miss the important part where I said my HID's are not aftermarket but factory fit as standard? If they do "clamp down" on them? 1) they'll have a fight on their hands with me as you can't retrospectively apply a regulation like this and I have plenty of time on my hands and access to solictors. This would akin to the stupidity of insisting pre mid 90s cars have to be fitted with catalytic converters, ABS etc because this became regulation subsequently 2) This will include quite the number of car models produced before the mid noughties also with factory fitted HID's minus the washers and levelers, including some higher end cars. IIRC quite the number of Hondas, Mercs, Beemers, Audis fall into this category(a mate has a 2004 Merc with HID's and no washers, dunno about self leveling TBH and his passed a few months ago).

Im fighting this exact battle with the NCT right now for my DC2. I wasnt going to post in this thread until I had an update, but Ill let you know how I get on.

djimi · 18-02-2014 8:31pm

Paddy@CIRL wrote: »

From reading on BMW Driver, you can get a letter from a main dealer to say that XYZ car came with xenons but never with washers / auto-adjustment and this is fine with the NCT.

Have you got a link to this?

Chris_Heilong · 18-02-2014 8:46pm

I have factory HID in my Chaser, no washers, have only manual leveler, I dont know if I could even put halogen bulbs in there as the headlight is not designed for such.

Paddy@CIRL · 18-02-2014 9:01pm

djimi wrote: »

Have you got a link to this?

http://www.bmw-driver.net/forum/showthread.php?t=88241

Reading it again, this is the route the guy is going down but hasn't been an update since: http://www.bmw-driver.net/forum/showthread.php?t=88241

Wibbs · 18-02-2014 9:27pm

djimi wrote: »

Im fighting this exact battle with the NCT right now for my DC2. I wasnt going to post in this thread until I had an update, but Ill let you know how I get on.

You are bloody kidding me D. :eek::mad: How stupid are these gobshítes writing these regs, where they don't allow for a "where factory fitted" clause? They do for other parts, like ABS, catalytic convertors, airbags, even bloody windscreen washers FFS, but not this*? Utter stupidity. I'll let you know how I get on this sunday. No doubt this varies between centers and testers. If I pass, could you bring your car to another center for the retest? I dunno if that's possible though.

*Actually particular car is a good example of that. Though ABS/airbags were an option on my model, mine came without both options as standard from the factory and not once has a tester suggested I retrofit these two items, so why would they suggest a fail for having factory fitted HIDs where no options for washers existed?

slimjimmc · 18-02-2014 10:28pm

Wibbs wrote: »

You are bloody kidding me D. :eek::mad: How stupid are these gobshítes writing these regs, where they don't allow for a "where factory fitted" clause? They do for other parts, like ABS, catalytic convertors, airbags, even bloody windscreen washers FFS, but not this*? Utter stupidity. I'll let you know how I get on this sunday. No doubt this varies between centers and testers. If I pass, could you bring your car to another center for the retest? I dunno if that's possible though.

*Actually particular car is a good example of that. Though ABS/airbags were an option on my model, mine came without both options as standard from the factory and not once has a tester suggested I retrofit these two items, so why would they suggest a fail for having factory fitted HIDs where no options for washers existed?

The regs are fine, the issue is NCT not knowing if washers or levelling are mandatory for specific cars. If washers/leveller weren't mandatory when the manufacturer obtained type-approval for your model then the regs don't apply to you, even if (I would argue) they were fitted as an optional extra (which imo is even better than 'where factory fitted').

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2012/en/si/0103.html

(1) By adding the following reasons for refusal to Item 30 of the Schedule—

(15) light source and lamp not compatible.

(16) where a levelling device is mandatory, the levelling device is not operating.

(17) where a levelling device is mandatory, the levelling device cannot be operated from the driver’s seat.

(18) where a headlamp cleaning device is mandatory, the headlamp cleaning device is not operating correctly.

Wibbs · 18-02-2014 10:54pm

Sorry SJ, I meant the NCT regs. In a previous thread on the subject someone posted up a pic of the page from the NCT testers handbook and it wasn't quite following those regs you linked to. It stated baldly no washers + levelers on HID's = FAIL. No "where fitted/mandatory" part to it. Its seems whichever beige cubicle dwelling bureaucrat penned the NCT handbook didn't quite understand the nuances of mandatory. That's the problem and as it seems Djimi is discovering, an actual real world problem with it.

As for testers on the ground not knowing which model has which, a pretty simple back of the envelope type thinking(god forbid) would suggest that a) any car built before the date where this became regulation is OK(where the HID's are clearly factory and even Stevie Wonder could spot this) and/or b) where it's plainly obvious no such mechanisms were ever present on the car in question. Now so far up to last year this wasn't mentioned by testers who seemed to know the model pretty well and exercised their cop on, even if the NCT reg writers didn't. It'll be interesting to see how it goes with me on Sunday.

thats not gone well · 19-02-2014 12:13am

I'm in a similar situation being that, I wanted xenon lights the most legitimate way I could.

They were offered as an option on my car as xenon reflectors.
I bought two complete xenon units, installed and aligned them.
There's no distinguishable difference from the outside with the lights off that they are totally different from standard halogens.

Now, when they were factory fitted, washers and self levelling were fitted also.
But being a Volvo, not all cars that have headlamp washers have xenons:rolleyes:

From my understanding the NCT manual says manual adjusters are adequate as long as they work.

16
Automatic headlamp levelling device not operating or manual
headlamp levelling device cannot be operated from driver’s seat

They washers are a different story however.
I could install a separate washer pump and jets in the bumper if required.

If there are early 00's cars that never had washers or self levelling will that mean that my set-up is equally legitimate and legal?

Wibbs · 19-02-2014 10:36am

thats not gone well wrote: »

If there are early 00's cars that never had washers or self levelling will that mean that my set-up is equally legitimate and legal?

I suspect not T as your setup is not as left the factory/standard and if it comes to it Volvo will state that if it had HIDs from the factory it also had the other bits and bobs that you're missing.

thats not gone well · 19-02-2014 1:32pm

Wibbs wrote: »

I suspect not T as your setup is not as left the factory/standard and if it comes to it Volvo will state that if it had HIDs from the factory it also had the other bits and bobs that you're missing.

looks like keeping the halogen units was a good idea after all

Paddy@CIRL · 19-02-2014 1:41pm

Does anyone know when the EU regulation was introduced that made the washers / levellers mandatory?

listermint · 19-02-2014 1:45pm

Paddy@CIRL wrote: »

Does anyone know when the EU regulation was introduced that made the washers / levellers mandatory?

Does it matter ? It should have a manual adjust inside the cabin that is physically functioning if it does not have self levelling

In basic form the vehicle should be as it was when it left the factory OR if aftermarket parts are fitted they should be to the standard of when the vehicle left the factory.

Wibbs · 19-02-2014 1:46pm

thats not gone well wrote: »

looks like keeping the halogen units was a good idea after all

Maybe a more long term solution might be if you sourced the washers and levelers from a scrapped Volvo like yours and fit them? I dunno how easy that would be or if the loom was the same for both models?

Paddy@CIRL · 19-02-2014 1:49pm

listermint wrote: »

Does it matter ? It should have a manual adjust inside the cabin that is physically functioning.

In basic form the vehicle should be as it was when it left the factory OR if aftermarket parts are fitted they should be to the standard of when the vehicle left the factory.

:rolleyes:

Get down off your soap box. I'll be ensuring my car is 100% for the NCT so will be retrofitting what is required. What I asked was when did the EU make this a mandatory requirement for manufacturers? I've searched online but can't find the specifics.

thats not gone well · 19-02-2014 1:58pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Maybe a more long term solution might be if you sourced the washers and levelers from a scrapped Volvo like yours and fit them? I dunno how easy that would be or if the loom was the same for both models?

The wipers are a pain.
new bumper, arms and motors.

anyone that has had them on another forum in the uk took them off when the gave trouble.

The headlight swap is 2 hours work. Not the end of the world but a hassle I could do without.

Beginning to think I'd have been better off with a Chinese HID kin in the halogen lamps blinding everybody :pac:

listermint · 19-02-2014 2:00pm

Paddy@CIRL wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Get down off your soap box. I'll be ensuring my car is 100% for the NCT so will be retrofitting what is required. What I asked was when did the EU make this a mandatory requirement for manufacturers? I've searched online but can't find the specifics.

What soap box paddy? And whats with the rolls eyes. If you are looking for specifics go into the Dealer and ask them. They can get the information for you.

Theres nothing soapbox about what i am telling you, so please refrain from using that old chestnut it does nothing for your comments.

The NCT enforcement is being designed to insure that the vehicles are up to their factory specifications. That is all. You would have manual adjustment if you dont have levellers and visa versa.

So whats your point ?

Wibbs · 19-02-2014 2:08pm

Paddy@CIRL wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Get down off your soap box. I'll be ensuring my car is 100% for the NCT so will be retrofitting what is required. What I asked was when did the EU make this a mandatory requirement for manufacturers? I've searched online but can't find the specifics.

IIRC it was around 2005-06

listermint wrote: »

The NCT enforcement is being designed to insure that the vehicles are up to their factory specifications. That is all. You would have manual adjustment if you dont have levellers and visa versa.

Unless it came with neither in the first place

Paddy@CIRL · 19-02-2014 2:09pm

listermint wrote: »

What soap box paddy? And whats with the rolls eyes. If you are looking for specifics go into the Dealer and ask them. They can get the information for you.

Theres nothing soapbox about what i am telling you, so please refrain from using that old chestnut it does nothing for your comments.

The NCT enforcement is being designed to insure that the vehicles are up to their factory specifications. That is all. You would have manual adjustment if you dont have levellers and visa versa.

So whats your point ?

I only asked a simple question as I can't find the details online. The reason I'm asking is that the wording of the NCT manual is vague. What if HIDs are retrofitted to a car (let's say circa-early '00s) when the car was not required to have the levellers or washers from the factory. Must they now also retrofit washers even though they weren't mandatory on that car when it was first built?

Paddy@CIRL · 19-02-2014 2:47pm

I've found the appropriate regulation from the EU, ECE Regulation 48, which is what the NCT are basing their rules upon.

Link to regulation (most recent version I can find): http://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs/r48r6e.pdf

I can't figure out when the amendments were made to include the use of a headlight cleaning system but I think it could have been as far back as June 2007. If someone with more brains than me can take a look and maybe clarify?

The reason I'm asking, as pointed out above, is if a car was built prior to this regulation being introduced, where does that leave cars which have retrofitted HIDs? Do the regulations of the year it was built apply? Are the retrofit installation of washers 'mandatory' even if an identical car built at the same time which came with factory HIDs does not have washers?

listermint · 19-02-2014 3:16pm

Wibbs wrote: »

IIRC it was around 2005-06

Unless it came with neither in the first place

So cars came with HID in them from factory had no adjustment in them be it manually inside the cab or auto levelling with washers ?

Which models ?

Wibbs · 19-02-2014 3:34pm

Try reading the thread maybe? Yes, before these more recent regulations, quite the number of cars came factory fitted and type approved with HID lights, but without leveling(manual or automatic) or headlight washers. Any number of Honda's from late 90's to mid noughties, various Mitsubishi models of similar vintage, Mercedes and BMW and Audis. No doubt others can add to this list.

This is the point that some of us are making. This is why it's beyond windlowlicking daft to find the NCT regulations have not taken this into account and people are failing NCT's over this. The EU and Irish government regs have the "where fitted" remark(see slimjimmc's post above), but some crosseyed eejit or eejits writing up the official NCT manual listened to too many Joe Duffy programmes about aftermarket HID's and applied the big hammer to one problem while not taking into account, I dunno, the actual real world. It's akin to regulating that all cars regardless of age must present for NCT having ABS, catalytic converters and Airbags because that's now a regulation from a later date.

This is affecting people as we speak. QV Djimi's current experience

djimi wrote: »

Im fighting this exact battle with the NCT right now for my DC2. I wasnt going to post in this thread until I had an update, but Ill let you know how I get on.

I've the same model of car; 1998 spec Honda Integra Type R and they came factory fitted with HID's but no washers or levelers and no option or way to retrofit them even if one wanted to.

HID Lights in the NCT

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