Civil Defence to assist Gardaí

19hz · 23-01-2014 2:44pm #1

A judge has suggested the Civil Defence be drafted in to help police the Dublin suburb of Tallaght following a number of violent deaths in the area.

What in gods name is going on with this judge, either;
A - He doesn't actually know a thing about Civil Defence and thinks they're some kind of army force like some of the public think.
B - He knows what we do and has gone soft in the head.

Call Civil Defence if you need water pumped, meals on wheels delivered in bad weather, search for missing persons, medical cover if your stuck, etc.
Not to police area with high incidents of gun crime.. surely that's a job for the army.

I'm all for using the army to clean up an area.

Source:
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/judge-calls-for-civil-defence-after-social-order-breakdown-1.1664782

bravestar · 23-01-2014 4:09pm

19hz wrote: »

A judge has suggested the Civil Defence be drafted in to help police the Dublin suburb of Tallaght following a number of violent deaths in the area.

What in gods name is going on with this judge, either;
A - He doesn't actually know a thing about Civil Defence and thinks they're some kind of army force like some of the public think.
B - He knows what we do and has gone soft in the head.

Call Civil Defence if you need water pumped, meals on wheels delivered in bad weather, search for missing persons, medical cover if your stuck, etc.
Not to police area with high incidents of gun crime.. surely that's a job for the army.

I'm all for using the army to clean up an area.

Source:
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/judge-calls-for-civil-defence-after-social-order-breakdown-1.1664782

To be perfectly honest, it is most certanly not a job for the army. They are not Police. If things aren't going well, more police with better gear, better training and a useful court system/ prison system is the answer.

Oh sorry, that probably costs money...

19hz · 23-01-2014 4:25pm

bravestar wrote: »

To be perfectly honest, it is most certanly not a job for the army. They are not Police. If things aren't going well, more police with better gear, better training and a useful court system/ prison system is the answer.

Oh sorry, that probably costs money...

I'd agree that more Gardaí are better.

However I think it is a job the army could carry out on short term. Esp the military police who actually assist the police in certain parts of the UK like Romford on weekends.

bravestar · 23-01-2014 5:03pm

19hz wrote: »

I'd agree that more Gardaí are better.

However I think it is a job the army could carry out on short term. Esp the military police who actually assist the police in certain parts of the UK like Romford on weekends.

Forgive me but I've never seen an MP in the district court having lifted a lad and prosecuting him for public order offences, let alone, any sort of serious offence.

19hz · 23-01-2014 5:16pm

bravestar wrote: »

Forgive me but I've never seen an MP in the district court having lifted a lad and prosecuting him for public order offences, let alone, any sort of serious offence.

Your're forgiven, however naive that was.

There is obviously provisions for the army working with the Gardaí, sure didn't they assist in the apprehension of something like 7 suspects in a tiger kidnapping a couple of months ago.

Obviously the Gardaí would be put alongside the army to carry out tasks in a lawful manner whilst assisted by the army, not the army on their own like you're implying..that's also naive.. :rolleyes:

Gatling · 23-01-2014 5:21pm

Judge is making tallaght to be a war zone absolutely ridiculous ,
Serious tallaght is not a war zone for the best part its fairly quite like most places ,
The judge should apologise for the statement

Oink · 23-01-2014 5:25pm

Is it just the case that he hasn't a clue who the CD are and what they do, or did he have a specific and "appropriate" role in mind (I wonder what on earth that could be though)?

My money is on a big mouth and no clue.

bravestar · 23-01-2014 5:27pm

19hz wrote: »

Your're forgiven, however naive that was.

There is obviously provisions for the army working with the Gardaí, sure didn't they assist in the apprehension of something like 7 suspects in a tiger kidnapping a couple of months ago.

Obviously the Gardaí would be put alongside the army to carry out tasks in a lawful manner whilst assisted by the army, not the army on their own like you're implying..that's also naive.. :rolleyes:

Why would any member of AGS need a soldier beside them to do their job?

19hz · 23-01-2014 5:50pm

bravestar wrote: »

Why would any member of AGS need a soldier beside them to do their job?

I'm not saying they do.

I'm saying that surely the army would be better suited to assisting the Gardaí than the CD IF IF IF IF IF IF IF they wanted some organisation to assist them.

I assume it would be to boost numbers on the street.
i.e. if you have two Gardaí then they patrol one street together.
If you had two army personnel then a Guard could take one army dude each and patrol two streets...hence two streets instead of one being patrolled.

I haven't a clue about tallaght lads, I'm just saying it's hilarious this judge obviously doesn't know anything about the CD :rolleyes:

bravestar · 23-01-2014 6:12pm

19hz wrote: »

I'm not saying they do.

I'm saying that surely the army would be better suited to assisting the Gardaí than the CD IF IF IF IF IF IF IF they wanted some organisation to assist them.

I assume it would be to boost numbers on the street.
i.e. if you have two Gardaí then they patrol one street together.
If you had two army personnel then a Guard could take one army dude each and patrol two streets...hence two streets instead of one being patrolled.

I haven't a clue about tallaght lads, I'm just saying it's hilarious this judge obviously doesn't know anything about the CD :rolleyes:

It is hilarious alright and I do see where you are coming from. But having people involved in front line policing who are not trained for it is a bad idea, be they CD, Army or the billy barry kids.

If anything, the army could be far better used in protection posts, freeing up actual Gardai to go out on to the streets.

stoneill · 23-01-2014 6:45pm

bravestar wrote: »

It is hilarious alright and I do see where you are coming from. But having people involved in front line policing who are not trained for it is a bad idea, be they CD, Army or the billy barry kids.

Now THAT would be good to see!

sparrowcar · 23-01-2014 7:59pm

Without giving any details, AGS and the army regularly work side by side in the movement of cash through our main airport.

They are there for the obvious firepower deterrent and expertise if an armed robbery attempt took place. They also have helicopters based close by that could give air cover leaving the Garda chopper free over the rest of the city.

I don't see any difference in helping with armed patrols?

carzony · 23-01-2014 8:02pm

Very strange statement to make by the judge. I got a message from my CD unit this morning but nothing has been decided on yet. Lads just recruit more gardai lol

Shadow Walker · 23-01-2014 8:36pm

Why do judges insist on delivering sound bites which are either ill judged , ill thought out or just plain wrong?

The Civil Defence have little or no role they could fill in a situation like this and there are many stages to go through before one even considers bringing in the army.

The army are soldiers not police . Their training deals with lethal force and destruction and is generally deployed in areas where civil authority has broken down completely and the police are under equipped and untrained to deal with the level of violence being used against them.

I don't think Tallaght is anywhere near that stage yet

19hz · 24-01-2014 3:53am

Lads yer gone off on some hilarious tangent about the army being armed and trained to lethal force..

Slightly overlooking the fact they we are world renowned for our peacekeeping missions not killing people.
Get a grip..I'm sure soldiers would do a fine job of policing a place IF IF IF they had too.

sawdoubters · 24-01-2014 4:00am

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1954/en/act/pub/0018/

TheNog · 24-01-2014 4:41am

19hz wrote: »

Lads yer gone off on some hilarious tangent about the army being armed and trained to lethal force..

Slightly overlooking the fact they we are world renowned for our peacekeeping missions not killing people.
Get a grip..I'm sure soldiers would do a fine job of policing a place IF IF IF they had too.

Previous posts are not really trying to disrespect the Defense Forces as a purely killing force. I like many Gardai have worked alongside the Irish army and for me have total respect for the job do.

I think what is trying to be said is that if the Defense Forces were utilised in a situation within the Republic to assist the Gardai it would be considered a situation of such dire consequences that could and would portray a terrible failing of society and of the Gardai ( as in unable to contain and deal with it).

An example would be Irish peacekeepers requiring special assistance abroad from a military force of another country because they couldn't handle the situation. It would be damaging to the reputation of the Irish Army as it would be for An Garda Siochana

TheNog · 24-01-2014 4:59am

carzony wrote: »

Very strange statement to make by the judge. l

Not really. Plenty of opinions of it being misguided, misinformed, maybe even stupid. Point is it has made definite local and even national news. The powers that be don't like headlines like that so depending on the pickup of the news and hopefully a decent follow through will magically produce extra money and therefore resources being made available to Tallaght Gardai and the Community to tackle the problem.

Rest assured the plan of throwing money to alleviate the problem will be short lived and concentrate solely on being short term but will keep the voters happy for the time being. All about saving face and that Sir is Irish life.

Anyone think I'm being cynical please say so but be warned I will contest your views against as a Garda stationed in a district where crime is being controlled to a certain extent all within an hour of Dublin

Shadow Walker · 24-01-2014 5:29am

19hz wrote: »

Lads yer gone off on some hilarious tangent about the army being armed and trained to lethal force..

Slightly overlooking the fact they we are world renowned for our peacekeeping missions not killing people.
Get a grip..I'm sure soldiers would do a fine job of policing a place IF IF IF they had too.

I meant no disrespect to the Irish army.My father was with the Irish army in The Congo , I had two uncles in Cypress with the Irish UN and an uncle and first cousin in Lebanon so I have great respect for the Irish Army and their peace keeping skills .

The point I was trying to make is that there is a big difference between "peace keeping" and "policing" . Peacekeeping is generally required when the situation has gotten so violent that the police are no longer capable of doing their job. Though both jobs overlap there is a difference and soldiers are generally brought in when basic law and order has broken down

loveBBhate · 24-01-2014 5:35am

Peace is what's needed in this world, I offer my peace to you all, why can't it be that simple for others?

TheNog · 24-01-2014 5:56am

Shadow Walker wrote: »

I meant no disrespect to the Irish army.My father was with the Irish army in The Congo , I had two uncles in Cypress with the Irish UN and an uncle and first cousin in Lebanon so I have great respect for the Irish Army and their peace keeping skills .

The point I was trying to make is that there is a big difference between "peace keeping" and "policing" . Peacekeeping is generally required when the situation has gotten so violent that the police are no longer capable of doing their job. Though both jobs overlap there is a difference and soldiers are generally brought in when basic law and order has broken down

Had the pleasure of meeting of a few Irish army at the back of the Dublin Airport during Obama's visit. Sound lads from Dundalk. Learnt a lot from them and had some craic to pass the time if ye see this this. While we were put up in hotel and having a good time ye were in tents.

Kudos to ye

petergfiffin · 24-01-2014 9:48am

If that judge wants to look for a solution to the problem he should look to his own colleagues and ask the question as to why so many of these thugs are out on the streets and not locked up after their 100th conviction. If anybody has the power to change things it's the judiciary, start handing down tough consecutive sentences and I bet you'll see the crime rate coming down too.

collie74 · 24-01-2014 10:07am

http://www.thejournal.ie/tallght-judge-violence-1279186-Jan2014/

pah · 24-01-2014 12:34pm

petergfiffin wrote: »

If that judge wants to look for a solution to the problem he should look to his own colleagues and ask the question as to why so many of these thugs are out on the streets and not locked up after their 100th conviction. If anybody has the power to change things it's the judiciary, start handing down tough consecutive sentences and I bet you'll see the crime rate coming down too.

^^^This, you beat me too it. I wonder how many people contributing to this violence and social breakdown are on Bail, Temporary Release or a Suspended Sentence?? What a clown, he was probably up all night watching 24 or The Siege or something

24-01-2014 3:53pm

I'd love to see a history of this Judge's sentencing to see how hard he is on people coming before his court. If you want to solve a crime problem you need more Gardaí and tough sentencing to act as a deterrent.

sdanseo · 26-01-2014 4:39am

The army are an aid to the civil power - they aid when needed.

To say that they''re unsuited too this task isn't only stupid, its unconstitutional.

Now to say that their assistance might be inappropriate or perhaps not required is different.

catallus · 26-01-2014 5:04am

More prisons to incarcerate the criminals in lieu of humane killing.

Shadow Walker · 26-01-2014 9:00pm

sdeire wrote: »

The army are an aid to the civil power - they aid when needed.

To say that they''re unsuited too this task isn't only stupid, its unconstitutional.

Now to say that their assistance might be inappropriate or perhaps not required is different.

The point I am trying to make is that the army are both unsuited and unnecessary to the CURRENT situation. I have no problems with the army but I would much rather see a guard on patrol than a few heavily armed soldiers.

Because the day I see armed soldiers patrolling the street will be the day ill know its time to emigrate because thugs and bowsies have taken over the streets and the country is no longer a safe place in which to live. I don't want to live under martial law

Locust · 28-01-2014 12:52am

An interesting difference between a soldier and a police officer is that soldiers rely and only act on orders (for the most part).
Whereas police (whilst they also rely on orders) have a greater freedom to 'think for themselves' and can make 'independent decisions' and act as a situation develops... without waiting and looking to their superiors.

ectoraige · 28-01-2014 9:41am

Lads, has nobody heard of compromise? The Defence Forces can help out - they can bring the CD vols down to the Curragh for a day, and then truck them off to Tallaght armed to the teeth.

Then we'll see what a "total breakdown” of social order looks like.

Shady Tady · 28-01-2014 10:00am

This crap is trotted out every now and then by people who don't know what they are talking about, you can't substitute police to deal with crime with powerless civilians or soldiers with no powers. Great soundbite for a headline, it has never happened and will never happen! Resource the gardai problem solved!

Capri · 28-01-2014 10:44am

An old Flying Squad like the ARU is all that's needed - judges seem to live on another planet :mad:

Sierra Oscar · 28-01-2014 12:26pm

In fairness, I think the judge was probably just looking to highlight the recent spate of violence in certain areas of Dublin and judging by the amount of discussion that it has generated he has achieved that. I don't think there was ever much serious thought given to getting CD involved in policing!

SNAKEDOC · 29-01-2014 1:20pm

bravestar wrote: »

To be perfectly honest, it is most certanly not a job for the army. They are not Police. If things aren't going well, more police with better gear, better training and a useful court system/ prison system is the answer.

Oh sorry, that probably costs money...

Hate to burst your bubble there but thats exactly what the army are for.
Definition of irish army includes aid to the civil power which is the gardai.
I know its not exactly the same thing but the troubles in the north saw army on all checkpoints at border crossings. Army patrols of bandit areas. Yes the army should be there to back up the gardai. There are not enough gardai NOW and it will be 18 months before there are new gardai on the streets. Too long to wait and even then yhey are fresh from training and green around the ears.
I know which id prefer to see.

Shady Tady · 29-01-2014 6:55pm

SNAKEDOC wrote: »

Hate to burst your bubble there but thats exactly what the army are for.
Definition of irish army includes aid to the civil power which is the gardai.
I know its not exactly the same thing but the troubles in the north saw army on all checkpoints at border crossings. Army patrols of bandit areas. Yes the army should be there to back up the gardai. There are not enough gardai NOW and it will be 18 months before there are new gardai on the streets. Too long to wait and even then yhey are fresh from training and green around the ears.
I know which id prefer to see.

Hate to burst your bubble but it will never ever happen! Maybe the government should look at reducing army resources and give the savings towards garda recruitment!

SNAKEDOC · 29-01-2014 8:05pm

Shady Tady wrote: »

Hate to burst your bubble but it will never ever happen! Maybe the government should look at reducing army resources and give the savings towards garda recruitment!

I never said it would happen only you were wrong in stating the army was not there to back the gardai up which they are. Furthermore there is presedent there where the army was used to aid the gardai in times of civil unrest and national crisis. Please check your facts before posting. Why should the government cut back on the army they already have done so. If anyone is at fault for the state of the force it is the minister for the closure of so many stations and basic demoralisation of the force resulting in retirements like never before. The army hasnt stolen resources from the gardai. The funding could be made available without cutting the army but they simply dont.

bravestar · 29-01-2014 10:48pm

SNAKEDOC wrote: »

I never said it would happen only you were wrong in stating the army was not there to back the gardai up which they are. Furthermore there is presedent there where the army was used to aid the gardai in times of civil unrest and national crisis. Please check your facts before posting. Why should the government cut back on the army they already have done so. If anyone is at fault for the state of the force it is the minister for the closure of so many stations and basic demoralisation of the force resulting in retirements like never before. The army hasnt stolen resources from the gardai. The funding could be made available without cutting the army but they simply dont.

Bubble bursting...oh god. I'm well aware of what the army do in an aid to the civil power role, I've worked with them plenty of times.

Tell me, how much experience policing do you have? I'll go out on a limb and say none. You would be as useful as army. The army have been used, for more firepower, in situations that require it. That is not what anywhere needs right now. They need police.

SNAKEDOC · 29-01-2014 11:28pm

bravestar wrote: »

Bubble bursting...oh god. I'm well aware of what the army do in an aid to the civil power role, I've worked with them plenty of times.

Tell me, how much experience policing do you have? I'll go out on a limb and say none. You would be as useful as army. The army have been used, for more firepower, in situations that require it. That is not what anywhere needs right now. They need police.

You can go out on all the limbs you want does not mean your right. Dont be to quick to make assumptions. Did i say anywhere that the army should be put into places like tallaght.
All i have said is that the army have the capability as part of their mandate to aid the civil power and it has happened before. That is all. I was just clearing up incorrect info you had posted so as not to mislead someone else.
Get over yourself there bravestar.

bravestar · 30-01-2014 1:06am

SNAKEDOC wrote: »

You can go out on all the limbs you want does not mean your right. Dont be to quick to make assumptions. Did i say anywhere that the army should be put into places like tallaght.
All i have said is that the army have the capability as part of their mandate to aid the civil power and it has happened before. That is all. I was just clearing up incorrect info you had posted so as not to mislead someone else.
Get over yourself there bravestar.

Thanks, I'll try. This thread is about assisting in frontline policing duties... In relation to a judges comments. The CD/Army/Beavers are not fit for that, the same way AGS are not fit to be nurses.

Yes the army have a role to play in ATCP, but not in frontline policing. By the way, are you actually a member of the DF? I ask because a good friend of mine is a skipper with the MP's and for some bizarre reason, he agrees with me. He should probably get over himself too.

Locust · 30-01-2014 4:51am

Theres a hell of a lot more to policing than armed patrols and checkpoints...If the army were to help, that would only be a tiny tiny part.

Historically a lot of the times that soldiers (around the world) have been brought in to assist policing efforts it has resulted in unnecessary conflict...

Certainly in the North it was a very negative thing (granted there was a different dynamic) but even amongst the protestant population the army didn't help as much as it caused agitation and hindered policing.

Im not knocking the Army (who i know are very disciplined) but you would have a bunch of young testosterone charged soldiers who are trained to kill (training - screaming "What makes the grass grow? Blood! Bright Red Blood!") you want them to assist Gardai in policing a high crime area?
Do you realise the ramifications of what could happen in the multiple scenarios the Gardai deal with out on the streets?

Having a solider beside me at a checkpoint actually hinders my policing effort.

Let the soldiers - solider
Let the police - police

That Judge should be pushing the Ministers for more Gardai...

Shield · 01-02-2014 7:18am

Mod post:

Guys, come on, we're doing well here, there's potential for more good discussion to happen here.. don't get personal. Attack the post, not, and never, the poster. If you feel strongly about something, get your point across accordingly, but don't be tempted to get in a personal dig in the process just because someone doesn't agree with you.

Thanks for reading, and back on-topic please.

SNAKEDOC · 01-02-2014 8:55am

Locust wrote: »

Theres a hell of a lot more to policing than armed patrols and checkpoints...If the army were to help, that would only be a tiny tiny part.

Historically a lot of the times that soldiers (around the world) have been brought in to assist policing efforts it has resulted in unnecessary conflict...

Certainly in the North it was a very negative thing (granted there was a different dynamic) but even amongst the protestant population the army didn't help as much as it caused agitation and hindered policing.

Im not knocking the Army (who i know are very disciplined) but you would have a bunch of young testosterone charged soldiers who are trained to kill (training - screaming "What makes the grass grow? Blood! Bright Red Blood!") you want them to assist Gardai in policing a high crime area?
Do you realise the ramifications of what could happen in the multiple scenarios the Gardai deal with out on the streets?

Having a solider beside me at a checkpoint actually hinders my policing effort.

Let the soldiers - solider
Let the police - police

That Judge should be pushing the Ministers for more Gardai...

Our army is far from the gun tooting trained killers you make them out to be.
I think you would be surprised how effective they would be

bravestar · 01-02-2014 9:48am

SNAKEDOC wrote: »

Our army is far from the gun tooting trained killers you make them out to be.
I think you would be surprised how effective they would be

What training do the army have that would make them effective police?

SNAKEDOC · 01-02-2014 10:46am

bravestar wrote: »

What training do the army have that would make them effective police?

Well for one they dont go round singing about blood making the grass grow.
Your comments are a bit shortsighted. They ar trained for riot situations. Trained in hand to hand combat or as the gardai call it self defence. They are trained in situation management. Trianed how to be assertive. Trained to work in a team environment.
Yes the army are trained with weapons that kill people but whether you like it or not the army in this country has a mandate to aid the police if the government see fit. I dont see why everyone is contradicting the truth. I for one have never stated that the army should be deployed on our streets only that if need be they have the capability and the training to do so as is in their mandate from the government.

bravestar · 01-02-2014 1:08pm

SNAKEDOC wrote: »

Well for one they dont go round singing about blood making the grass grow.
Your comments are a bit shortsighted. They ar trained for riot situations. Trained in hand to hand combat or as the gardai call it self defence. They are trained in situation management. Trianed how to be assertive. Trained to work in a team environment.
Yes the army are trained with weapons that kill people but whether you like it or not the army in this country has a mandate to aid the police if the government see fit. I dont see why everyone is contradicting the truth. I for one have never stated that the army should be deployed on our streets only that if need be they have the capability and the training to do so as is in their mandate from the government.

Firstly, I never said anything about blood making grass grow. Go check your facts before you embarrass yourself again.

Secondly, what you see as necessary skills that the army and Gardai have, make up about 2% of what policing is about. Why don't you go and educate yourself about policing in Ireland, then come back with an informed opinion and have a proper discussion on the subject.

You can spout ATCP all you want, but that is not what it was designed for.

It has been said earlier in the thread, let the soldiers soldier, let the police police.

SNAKEDOC · 01-02-2014 1:33pm

I was quoting someone else when i said about the blood grass thing. As you said informed opinion well i have an informed opinion. I have researched and stated only facts which you seem to be blind to. I have said now for the third time, my opinion is that the army should not be put on the streets but in the a worst case senario they have the ability to be called upon. Can you just read my post and see im not argueing with you im only stating FACTS about our army forces. I think youd fight with your big toe:)
As for my opinion being informed ive worked with both the army and gardai. I served for a Number of years as a reserve and was a garda for a number of years too so my opinion is well informed. Just to clarify i would probably be against army units being put on the streets unless there was major civil unrest.

Shadow Walker · 01-02-2014 1:33pm

SNAKEDOC wrote: »

Trained in hand to hand combat or as the gardai call it self defence.

There is a world of difference between "hand to hand combat" and "self defence"

The objective of hand to hand combat is to disable(preferably permanently) the other guy whereas Gardai learn to restrain the other person

Many yeArs ago I spoke to the training instructor in Templemore who said the Garda self defence was a modified and toned down version of ju jitsu. It involved arm and hand locks whereby a struggling assailant would be working against his wrist, arm and shoulder joints (mainly) if he continued to struggle

To disable someone usually involves a permanent injury or death , exactly what Gardai are trained to avoid

Locust · 03-02-2014 3:58am

SNAKEDOC wrote: »

I was quoting someone else when i said about the blood grass thing.

Are you DF? Ever gone through any kind of military training?

I know a lot of army guys and i know - of course - they are trained to be 'assertive' and 'team guys' and assist Gardai in a role ... That is wonderful they sit through a few power points on the use of force. The Irish Army are professional and disciplined... I acknowledge they aren't gun tottling maniacs thats great from the outset. But on the flip coin you must realise they are also trained not to mess around and that means kill & train for as extreme as you could imagine. It differs on the street as history has shown.

Have you experienced bayonet training?
What exactly do you think they train you? Or imagine a young solider in training is screamed at to affix bayonets & charge the enemy? What advice is he given? What attitude is he told to adopt?
Just a training course of course... a small part of an overall life of a soldier. But this all goes into the making of a group of trained and conditioned soldiers who arent out to given free hugs and smiles when deployed, which a judge suggests assist the Gardai in policing Tallaght....? right, wonderful, maybe take a drive through Jobstown or Rossfield late on the weekend and ask for directions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Op1zjd7KKE

The army train for peacekeeping roles etc... But that also encompasses killing other human beings if necessary if that equals an end to the means of the mission / or use of force is justified.

We are a Celtic/Barbarian/wild at heart nation - we don't respond well (at the outset) to orders or being told what to do! Many areas rampant with drugs alcohol and serious crime.

The army are young fit motivated guys with battle rifles, conditioned to complete an 'objective'. Yes they are there to assist the police in a role (tick the box) - but when they are called in - Do you realise you (the general public) and many other boys won't like it? We are talking about borderline marshall law/rule... Its something that will upset the system. Its something that may not be all that ethical... Its something that will cause friction and upset and ultimately conflict and bloodshed.
Its a step back in time and not forward (progressively speaking).
The answer is education - more community engagement and more Gardai and more funding and equipping - not the Army.

SNAKEDOC · 03-02-2014 10:18pm

Locust wrote: »

Are you DF? Ever gone through any kind of military training?

I know a lot of army guys and i know - of course - they are trained to be 'assertive' and 'team guys' and assist Gardai in a role ... That is wonderful they sit through a few power points on the use of force. The Irish Army are professional and disciplined... I acknowledge they aren't gun tottling maniacs thats great from the outset. But on the flip coin you must realise they are also trained not to mess around and that means kill & train for as extreme as you could imagine. It differs on the street as history has shown.

Have you experienced bayonet training?
What exactly do you think they train you? Or imagine a young solider in training is screamed at to affix bayonets & charge the enemy? What advice is he given? What attitude is he told to adopt?
Just a training course of course... a small part of an overall life of a soldier. But this all goes into the making of a group of trained and conditioned soldiers who arent out to given free hugs and smiles when deployed, which a judge suggests assist the Gardai in policing Tallaght....? right, wonderful, maybe take a drive through Jobstown or Rossfield late on the weekend and ask for directions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Op1zjd7KKE

The army train for peacekeeping roles etc... But that also encompasses killing other human beings if necessary if that equals an end to the means of the mission / or use of force is justified.

We are a Celtic/Barbarian/wild at heart nation - we don't respond well (at the outset) to orders or being told what to do! Many areas rampant with drugs alcohol and serious crime.

The army are young fit motivated guys with battle rifles, conditioned to complete an 'objective'. Yes they are there to assist the police in a role (tick the box) - but when they are called in - Do you realise you (the general public) and many other boys won't like it? We are talking about borderline marshall law/rule... Its something that will upset the system. Its something that may not be all that ethical... Its something that will cause friction and upset and ultimately conflict and bloodshed.
Its a step back in time and not forward (progressively speaking).
The answer is education - more community engagement and more Gardai and more funding and equipping - not the Army.

Ok. Ive never had bayonet training and yes the army have that training. When was it ever used? Has the army encountered any hostile encursions that they had to repell with their bayonets and a grende pin in their teeth. Yes they are soldiers but they are also human beings with families and kids. They are not a bunch of vietnam vets sitting around smoking cigarettes with a thousand yard stare. And as for the thing about the hugs and smiles do gardai go round giving hugs yea they might smile but as for a hug dont think so.
When the army go abroad on peace keeping missions they are constantly smiling so as the natives accept them as yes you guessed it( a policing force)
I know that the army is at the end of the day a force of men and women trained to kill but their job goes much farther than pulling a trigger.
If your opinion was the real senario the army would not be out in times of emergency giving aid or bringing water to communities affected by floods or bad weather.
Why is my statement that the army is there to aid the gardai so off putting its the truth.
As for driving through rossfield or whereever else i work in tallaght where the judge suggested putting the army. I used to work/live in coolock and i have worked in the north inner city as well as lived there i know what the streets are like.
You stated that putting the army on the streets in a policing role amounts to marshal law well thats probably the only thing i agree with you on.
It is marshal law when public society deteriates to a point where the police force is unable to cope and the army is called upon. You also said it would upset the system but do you not realise to have the army on the streets the system would be already quite upset in the first place hence the army being deployed to restore law and order. Only the president can inact this measure from a request from government. I think if a request was made like that things would be pretty messed up dont you. It has never happened in this country but again for the last time i have only ever said that it could happen not that it should.
If things got so bad on the strets of our country where people were afraid to leave their homes(folks we're already there in some places) i would welcome the Army as a law abiding citizen. Maybe then elderly people wouldnt be getting attacked in their homes or people being murdered in broad daylight.

Zambia · 04-02-2014 12:08am

Once all the hand to hand combat is over are the army going to take on the process of charging , bailing, brief of evidence , court appearances , trials giving evidence and all the other things due process involves?

SNAKEDOC · 04-02-2014 12:26am

Zambia wrote: »

Once all the hand to hand combat is over are the army going to take on the process of charging , bailing, brief of evidence , court appearances , trials giving evidence and all the other things due process involves?

In that case will the gardai start charging with bayonets. The arguement can be endless but to stress the point. Short of world ending army is used to restore order. ORDER RESTORED MEN BACK TO THE BARRACKS. Then all is well again. Can you not just see that in the real world in some countries this has happened and our army has that capability and is trained for it.
Oh yea and in a state emergency when the army is needed on the streets do you really think due process will be first on peoples minds. I would imagine not. The army would be there to RESTORE due process then get back to normal operations.

Civil Defence to assist Gardaí

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