Gender quotas: FG proposal defeated

iptba · 16-03-2010 12:48am #1

Extract from Irish Times, March 12:

Setback for Kenny as proposal on quotas for women defeated

HARRY McGEE
Political Correspondent

A PROPOSAL backed by Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny to impose quotas of women candidates was rejected by his parliamentary party this week after one of its most prominent female TDs strongly opposed it.

Nice to see this. As I've heard some people say, at least part of the motivation may be to get female voters. Normally, discriminating against people might not be seen as a good thing, but it seems if it's against men, many people see that as ok.

Of course, other parties seem interested in the idea and it hasn't disappeared from FG.

I thought we were supposed to be moving towards a "gender-blind" society.

epgc3fyqirnbsx · 16-03-2010 2:25am

iptba wrote: »

Extract from Irish Times, March 12:
Nice to see this. As I've heard some people say, at least part of the motivation may be to get female voters. Normally, discriminating against people might not be seen as a good thing, but it seems if it's against men, many people see that as ok.

Of course, other parties seem interested in the idea and it hasn't disappeared from FG.

I thought we were supposed to be moving towards a "gender-blind" society.

I'm very happy to see this. I like that FG are trying some new approaches but this was just BS.
It's actually an affront to democracy. There maybe should be more females in govt but if people want that to be so, then get off your behind and lobby for it. Make the voters think so.

If there had been a quota, that would amount to discrimination. Positive discrimination from a females point of view but positive discrimination is still discrimination.

I truly do believe in equality. And I think anyone who truly does would find this repugnant. Even some so called 'feminists' who see this as a requirement, how can you find equality if you are seeking special treatment for being female? It's suggesting you are different and need special treatment.
Which is an insult to your gender.
And I hesitate using the word gender becayse that suggests differences (which there are obviously but shouldn't in the political spectre)

As far as politics is concerned you vote for a 'person'. If you want a particular peron to get in then you convince them.

Quotas are undemocratic and sexist.

citytillidie · 16-03-2010 2:34am

I posted this quote in the Discrimination thread. I think it sums up todays world.

In the past quarter century, we exposed biases against other races and called it racism, and we exposed biases against women and called it sexism. Biases against men we call humor.
—Warren Farrell, Women Can’t Hear What Men Don’t Say

CDfm · 16-03-2010 3:35am

I think you need to look at it differently in terms of spin put forward by Enda & CO in the manner of Blairs Babes.

The Irish political system is dynastical and local and its even how he got his seat -not on merit.

The other factor is that the Womens Movement has been hugely sucessful in advancing political policies for women using the lobby group system.

They would want to be stark raving bonkers & mad to adopt a party political model and have their policies subject to parlimentary and media review.

Still I think of the prospect of Enda Babes as an Irish version of Blairs Babes entertaining - like this story of when a leprechaun comes between a man and his gold

Its silly that anyone should give this publicity stunt any credence at all other than bolstering his feminist credentials.

What policies do Fine Gael or indeed the other parties have on matters/issues that affect you and that you are interested in ?

Thats more important than this sham.Only the Irish would fall for that one and it looks like we have.

iptba · 16-03-2010 4:32am

CDfm wrote: »

Its silly that anyone should give this publicity stunt any credence at all other than bolstering his feminist credentials.

What policies do Fine Gael or indeed the other parties have on matters/issues that affect you and that you are interested in ?

Thats more important than this sham.Only the Irish would fall for that one and it looks like we have.

As I recall, it was part of the Labour manifesto last time. And I think Sinn Féin are quite into gender quotas.

Then Labour got gender quotas/targets of 40% for State boards last time they were in power. I remember that the president of the UCG/NUIG student union wasn't allowed sit on the university board for many (nine?) months as he was male - Minister for Eductation Niamh Breathnach put her foot down.

Given that there's a very good chance Labour will be in power in Ireland after the next general election, I'd say it could well either be brought into law or there would be a referendum. It won't cost them money. There is a strong women's section in Labour. Don't know of any men's sections in any of the political parties - anyone know of any?

CDfm · 16-03-2010 4:47am

forget gender quotas -that would never become law as it isnt anywhere worldwide

It would be something that is adopted internally within a party and irelands political structure and voting system is too parochial for it to work.

What i meant is merely because someone is female does not follow that she has a gender bias politically towards women

Take Amen the Mens Group it was founded by a woman and has its roots in a Womens Group in Navan and its the most sucessful group of its kind in Ireland.

The real issue is where do the various political parties stand on mens rights and how do they compare? Surely what is more important is what their policies are.

Are there any politicians who have spoken out publically on it and taken a stand.Surely if you are analysing what they are doing you should do so under caregories you define and not them.

iptba · 16-03-2010 3:08pm

CDfm wrote: »

forget gender quotas -that would never become law as it isnt anywhere worldwide

There are gender quotas elsewhere.

http://www.quotaproject.org/CS/CS_Dahlerup_25-11-2003.pdf

The electoral quota for women may be constitutional (as in Nepal, the Philippines and Uganda), legislative (as in many parts of Latin America and, for example, in Belgium, Bosnia–Herzegovina, Serbia and Sudan) or it may take the form of a political party quota. In some countries, numerous political parties apply some type of quotas, such as in Argentina, Bolivia, Ecuador, Germany, Italy, Norway and Sweden. But in many other countries only one or two parties have opted to use quotas.

CDfm · 16-03-2010 5:46pm

But surely you have a view of key areas of gender inequalities that you would like to see fixed and against you would rate political parties?

What if any policies do Fine Gael and Labour have on mens issues and how do they compare?

Is your point on voting or is it on gender related policies.

The headline was setback for Kenny and it was as much a setback as a late bus is for me and I have a car.

iptba · 16-03-2010 7:09pm

CDfm wrote: »

But surely you have a view of key areas of gender inequalities that you would like to see fixed and against you would rate political parties?

What if any policies do Fine Gael and Labour have on mens issues and how do they compare?

Is your point on voting or is it on gender related policies.

I think both issues are interesting and worthy of discussion.

And also in my mind, one does kind of lead me to think of the other e.g. we are told that the Dáil is so male-dominated that we need more quotas so women's issues could get greater attention. But it's rarely mentioned that men's issues aren't getting mentioned. The impression is given that there's a men's club but, like you, I don't see politicians highlighting men's issues. Of course, I see part of the problem being the lack of study of, and education on, men's issues in third level institutions and government agencies and the like.

CDfm · 16-03-2010 7:13pm

iptba wrote: »

I think both issues are interesting and worthy of discussion.

it would be interesting to see a policy comparison between the parties- this would be something new and something i havent seen discussed before

the voting aspect is a seperate issue and the threads should be seperate and it has been done a few times that i have seen

Galvasean · 17-03-2010 1:40am

Gender quotas are absolutely ridiculous IMO. You take the best person for the job regarless of what kind of junk they have in their trunk.

humberklog · 17-03-2010 2:14am

Galvasean wrote: »

Gender quotas are absolutely ridiculous IMO. You take the best person for the job regarless o what kind of junk they have in their trunk.

But there's a flaw there; the best person isn't getting the job when it comes to politics. There is something very amiss in Irish politics with the lack of women represented with bums on seats in the Dail.

There's a disconnect somewhere along the line and perhaps a period of time where there was a concerted approach to promoting women into politics may not be a bad idea.

Sure, of course any one with half a head can see the negatives to positive discrimination but I'd like to see it being wheeled out in some form. The numbers are so low and more or less stagnant that I'd like to see if a shot in the arm over a period of time would work in garnering more female candidates that would plant a seed of natural growth when the process was withdrawn.

If it doesn't work it doesn't work. Grand. But I think it would be interesting to try for whatever results the experiment would bring. There is a flaw along the lines somewhere that doesn't appear to be correcting itself.

CDfm · 17-03-2010 2:43am

humberklog wrote: »

But there's a flaw there; the best person isn't getting the job when it comes to politics. There is something very amiss in Irish politics with the lack of women represented with bums on seats in the Dail.

There's a disconnect somewhere along the line and perhaps a period of time where there was a concerted approach to promoting women into politics may not be a bad idea.

If it doesn't work it doesn't work. Grand. But I think it would be interesting to try for whatever results the experiment would bring. There is a flaw along the lines somewhere that doesn't appear to be correcting itself.

But Hk that assumes that women of the calibre you want are willing to go forward.

Another issue is that the womens movement have monopolised various structures and policy models as part of the political lobbying model they have adopted.

So would you also fund or impose a male structure for mens issues and fund it similarily to the funding that policies for women have.

At what stage are yiu drawing the line on positive discrimination.

humberklog · 17-03-2010 2:55am

CDfm wrote: »

But Hk that assumes that women of the calibre you want are willing to go forward.

Another issue is that the womens movement have monopolised various structures and policy models as part of the political lobbying model they have adopted.

So would you also fund or impose a male structure for mens issues and fund it similarily to the funding that policies for women have.

At what stage are yiu drawing the line on positive discrimination.

Just point by point here CD...

Oh lordy I'm not assuming anything, just willing to give something a go that's a bit different and with the long term possibilities of shaking things up.

I'm not up on where the woman's movement have taken hold and nor how they've modelled it. If that's the path that some have chosen then well and good but I like to see my politics being done on the floor of the Dail. And there's not many women there.

No, we're grand. The Dail's a schlongfest.

I don't even know where I'd start the line never mind draw it!!:D

iptba · 17-03-2010 3:38am

humberklog wrote: »

There's a disconnect somewhere along the line and perhaps a period of time where there was a concerted approach to promoting women into politics may not be a bad idea.

Do they usually or ever get rid of them after a period when used in other countries? I recall reading about some countries such as in Scandinavia where they have them decades and haven’t got rid of them.

CDfm · 17-03-2010 4:46am

humberklog wrote: »

I'm not up on where the woman's movement have taken hold and nor how they've modelled it. If that's the path that some have chosen then well and good but I like to see my politics being done on the floor of the Dail. And there's not many women there.

thats cool hk - and you have hit the nail on the head - no our politics is not done in the Dail per se .

humberklog · 17-03-2010 7:02pm

iptba wrote: »

Do they usually or ever get rid of them after a period when used in other countries? I recall reading about some countries such as in Scandinavia where they have them decades and haven’t got rid of them.

I was wondering the same myself on a big drive earlier today. I don't know if they do and was even unsure if Positive Discrimination was ever brought in anywhere and thought perhaps to look it up. But I really dislike reading long stuff on the 'net.

Even so just because it has (or if?) been tried in some countries or introduced and retained in some countries doesn't have to mean that we carbon copy an already dubious approach. Collate the info, design a credible and staisfactory one that would be better honed to our mind set and judged problems in the matter and...give it a swing.

iptba · 17-03-2010 11:39pm

If, as we are constantly told, there are no differences between men and women, why do we need a quota? We do not have quotas for hair colour, for example.

humberklog · 18-03-2010 12:20am

iptba wrote: »

If, as we are constantly told, there are no differences between men and women, why do we need a quota? We do not have quotas for hair colour, for example.

Well not to go off topic but I can't quote without commenting on your opening line iptba: I'm not (if ever) being told that there is no difference between men and women. I'm not told that there are differences either, it just doesn't seem to come up much (that I notice anyway).

I don't think a quota is necessary myself but I would like to see how pro-active encouragement in enticing more women to partake in general government would work in a given period of time.

Men with different hair colours were always able to get involved in government, whether that was running in elections or voting in elections. The same can't be said for women (regardless of the colour of their hair).

I think (and this is only based on my own musings- no wikiwonderland links here) that perhaps the problem is that woman have had a standing start in politics whereas blokes were already well ahead in the race what with being allowed to run for government and indeed vote. In relative terms women are newcomers that started with a handicap (that of being thought not up to the job).

An anology I'd make is that of a garden. If you were introducing a new plant that you wanted to take root and spread to eventually equal amounts with that of the long standing plants in the garden you would need to clear a way and give it extra attention. Perhaps one would have to Positively Discriminate in the garden, for a period of time, in order to achieve a harmonious balance.
Females in Irish government haven't taken root in a way that one would have imagined or hoped for, a bit of pro-active gardening may be the tonic.

Quotas? Rules of law? Enforced regimes? Stuff that sounds something like that but I'm unsure exactly how to say it? I wouldn't be comfortable with that but I did have a think about what I would be comfortable with and I thought of something like this: a Tallaght type strategy by cross party co-operation.
For example: in an up coming by-election 3 of the main parties agreed between themselves to run only female candidates? If FF, FG and Lab each decided to run a woman that could still leave a man in the contest as an Independent (or from a party that has decided to opt out). A kind of Positive Discrimination Light...a spot of healthy gardening.
This could have the effect of parties looking deeper for capable women and also women in the party knowing that stepping forward isn't stepping on toes.

deadhead13 · 18-03-2010 1:03am

22 out of 166 in the present dail, I was surprised it was so few. Is it a case of a large number of women wanting to be in politics but not making it through the selection process or are they just not putting themselves forward?

Norwegian political parties have a voluntary and self-imposed gender quota system. Which has seen the number of female members of parliament increase from 15% to 39% over the past 30 years. At present we have have 13%.

CDfm · 18-03-2010 1:24am

Women tend in professions tend to gravitate towards occupations allowing time off for child rearing.

Medicine, legal and teaching all have a huge number of females.They have changed working practices in those areas -such as maternity leave etc job sharing. Try to get your GP to do a house call in Dublin these days and you will know what I mean. The level of sick days by women in the civil service exceeds men.

In other words the workplace has changed for women and not women for the workplace.

So by putting forward gender proposals you are at risk of reducing the public representation. If this is a crucial issue maybe public representatives should get a childcare allowance.

If we presume that public service as an elected representative is a selfless act maybe it could be interpretated that women are not brought up to be altruistic in that way. Being a public representative is hugely time consuming so lots of women may not be able to commit and lots of voters may not be able to commit to a lower level of representatation.

Now I am not making these comments to be anti-women because we do know that women are extremely well organised. I have sometimes suggested that the power wielded by womens lobby groups is great and it probably detracts from women interacting in parlimentary government. So women are more represnted then men just not in parliment. I would trade Dail seats for a fairer system for guys and a reduction in aid to and elimination of these self appointed lobby groups.

You cant force someone to serve who doesnt want too.

humberklog · 18-03-2010 1:36am

While that may be a point CD I wonder how dated a notion it is and if it is a reason of peoples thinking (I don't agree that it is) then can it be changed?

I've had a look through this page and our position on the list is startling.
http://www.ipu.org/wmn-e/classif.htm

Something's wrong somewhere and it's not fixing itself. Scroll down to no.85 and we're between Cameroon and Djibuti.

CDfm · 18-03-2010 1:57am

I am not disagreeing with you but I am an economist so will look at supply and demand factors.

So what I am saying is you can prime the supply or demand side of the system.

What incentive is there for a Woman to enter into the local and national politics for power when they can achieve more power without going for election.

So that which is currently providing representation thru the lobby system may also be that which is preventing them entering parlimentary politics.

humberklog · 18-03-2010 2:04am

CDfm wrote: »

I am not disagreeing with you but I am an economist so will look at supply and demand factors.

So what I am saying is you can prime the supply or demand side of the system.

What incentive is there for a Woman to enter into the local and national politics for power when they can achieve more power without going for election.

So that which is currently providing representation thru the lobby system may also be that which is preventing them entering parlimentary politics.

Ooooh...I like that. Hmmm something to think about while driving around the city tomorrow. Well one thing's for sure...we're not swedish, the rest needs a good ol' thinking.

deadhead13 · 18-03-2010 2:15am

CDfm wrote: »

So that which is currently providing representation thru the lobby system may also be that which is preventing them entering parlimentary politics.

Wouldn't that representation through the lobby system exist in many of those countries well above us in that list?

CDfm · 18-03-2010 2:20am

humberklog wrote: »

Ooooh...I like that. Hmmm something to think about while driving around the city tomorrow. Well one thing's for sure...we're not swedish, the rest needs a good ol' thinking.

A natural extention of the argument being that by offering the quotas to achieve parlimentary equality you have 2 options

-provide men with support groups equal to those females enjoy

or

-remove financial support from the female lobby groups as they will be redundant

The other issue is that you dont know the implications of the package Enda was offering but there was a reason why female politicians rejected it.Go figure.

CDfm · 18-03-2010 2:23am

deadhead13 wrote: »

Wouldn't that representation through the lobby system exist in many of those countries well above us in that list?

It would but why do you need to copy an imperfect system. If you see a flaw you correct it. You wouldnt have a country copy a design flaw on a weapon system -why do it in government or public service.

deadhead13 · 18-03-2010 2:34am

CDfm wrote: »

It would but why do you need to copy an imperfect system. If you see a flaw you correct it. You wouldnt have a country copy a design flaw on a weapon system -why do it in government or public service.

I could have phrased that better. What I meant was, if this lobby system was a cause of the low female representive in politics in Ireland, then why does it not have the same effect in other countries which would also has this system.

CDfm · 18-03-2010 2:49am

When the systems were adopted they were dealing with new circumstances. You dont find the USA quotaing blacks for instance.

The duty of a politician is to be elected not to have a perfect form of government.

Do you think the doubling of spending on the Irish Healthcare resulted in an election victory. Did it increase the number of consultants working in Tallaght Hospital - eh no. Did it increase services -no. did it increase effeciency -no.

Did the minister and Taoiseach get re-elected on the basis of the overspend -why yes.

Do the opposition parties offer a crediable alternative on the allocation or spending of the Budget. Eh -no.

I would say though that as a politician Enda may have been acting to curb the power and influence of some groups when he comes to office.

deadhead13 · 18-03-2010 3:16am

When I said "then why does it not have the same effect in other countries which would also has this system" in my last post, I was talking about the lobby system - not a quota system.

CDfm · 18-03-2010 4:12am

deadhead13 wrote: »

When I said "then why does it not have the same effect in other countries which would also has this system" in my last post, I was talking about the lobby system - not a quota system.

I don't really know.

I would imagine that systems were put in place as a vote catcher.

But you can say the lobby system is really influential in Ireland in terms of how it delivers pro-women policies.

If a politician was deemed anti women it would harm their election chances. Take Michael Lowrys reelection despite corruption alegations. Kevin Myers a journalist is vilified in some quarters for questioning the ethics of some prominent Irish Womens Groups. One prominent activist called for him to be jailed.

So at the time the policies were concieved power was a goal.

New Labour in the UK made noises about adopting a PR voting system but once in power didnt.

With evidence of how the system has worked in other countries and the concentration of power in countries like Sweden I would imagine that its a tight balancing act.

So you have to balance efforts to get into power from a real ideological stance. As Blair would have considered ya dont **** with a winning system when you are in power.

The Lobby Groups that are autonomous and not subject to electoral scrutiny also carry huge electoral influence -as do the Unions. So the transfer of political power to unelected interest groups is a scary time for democracy.We already see the massive power of the public sector unions and do we want it further diluted.

Gender quotas: FG proposal defeated

Comments