Car commuting down, cycling up...

Tenzor07 · 07-04-2014 3:27pm #1

Great news, maybe now the cycle infrastructure will start to be built in order to meet a growing demand in Dublin city?

car-commuting-down-cycling-up-according-the-dublin-city-council-

_Kaiser_ · 08-04-2014 11:23am

It's gone up by about 2300 since they started keeping records in 1997, not forgetting that we've had a boom and bust since then and the effects of both on the commuting masses and job market.

I wouldn't start splashing out the red paint everywhere yet.

vektarman · 08-04-2014 12:33pm

I notice the survey was taken in November, the weather might have had an impact on the figures, it would be interesting to see by how much the number of cyclists would increase by if the survey were taken in, say, May.

SeanW · 08-04-2014 1:11pm

1) Well, cars still account for nearly 2/3rds of the of the journeys so clear cars are way more useful ... perhaps there should be better provisions for those? :pac::pac::pac:
2) How do they measure people on the buses?
3) The exclusion of rail from these surveys is a clear oversight, I'd guess at least 10,000 (more likely tens of thousands) use peak time rail (Luas, DART, commuter) with many lines maxed out.

Spook_ie · 08-04-2014 2:10pm

I'd argue that it would be far better upgrading the public transport services, it would seem that in the period 1997 - 2013 quoted that

A 13645 less cars (73561-59916) were recorded
B 3433 more cyclists (9061-5628) were recorded
So that would be either 10212 people no longer commuting at all or 10212 people using public transport, which renders the figures meaningless anyway as rail or Luas use is counted seperately.

There used to be a saying in the computer industry GIGO (Garbage In Garbage Out) and this seems to be one of those cases

The actual figure is obviously somewhere in between and I'm sure if someone wanted to they could find it on the CSO website somewhere,

bk · 08-04-2014 7:55pm

Note this survey only counts the number of vehicles entering the city, not the number of people in each car/bus/coach, nor people using public transport.

A more comprehensive survey done by the NTA, which builds on this data, in 2012 shows the modal share to be:

- 46% Public Transport
- 37% car
- 9% walk
- 4.28% cycle

Note that the count is taking in November, I'm sure that the cycle count (and probably walking too) would be significantly higher if taken during the summer months.

This would indicate that we should absolutely be prioritising public transport.

http://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Canal-Cordon-Count-2012.pdf

Tenzor07 · 09-04-2014 10:51am

bk wrote: »

A more comprehensive survey done by the NTA, which builds on this data, in 2012 shows the modal share to be:

- 46% Public Transport
- 37% car
- 9% walk
- 4.28% cycle

Note that the count is taking in November, I'm sure that the cycle count (and probably walking too) would be significantly higher if taken during the summer months.

This would indicate that we should absolutely be prioritising public transport.

Well, that paints a different picture, quite very low cycle-commuting figures. And sure, November wouldn't be the best month for it weather-wise.

Certainly priority Bus-lanes and junctions is the answer, along with fixed penalty camera's for private cars and vans who decide to use the Bus lanes also.
Beside the Bus-lanes we need direct cycle-paths with priority also.

A congestion charge on private vehicles within the Canal areas from the North and Southside of the city would also persuade people to cycle and use public transport.

Victor · 09-04-2014 11:06am

SeanW wrote: »

1) Well, cars still account for nearly 2/3rds of the of the journeys

Not quite. Cars account for about 80% of traffic, but 37% of people.

ThisRegard · 09-04-2014 11:13am

Spook_ie wrote: »

So that would be either 10212 people no longer commuting at all or 10212 people using public transport, which renders the figures meaningless anyway as rail or Luas use is counted seperately.

Many companies moved out of the city centre to one of the many cheaper business parks around Dublin, and there has been growth in the number of home workers which would also have an affect.

monument · 09-04-2014 12:04pm

Will post the actual canal count report later -- the media reports do not reflect its full content.

And that's before mentioning that the canal count it self is problematic given it does reflect the large amount of people starting walking and cycling trips inside the canals -- for example, no DublinBikes stations were outside the count cordon at the last count and even with the expansion only 2-3 new DublinBikes stations are outside the count cordon, so the vast bulk of DublinBikes trips are not counted.

But problematic is the vast amount of walking trips started within the canals are not taken into account and people looking at the report without context won't see the importance of those trips.

MGWR · 13-04-2014 6:09pm

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

It's gone up by about 2300 since they started keeping records in 1997, not forgetting that we've had a boom and bust since then and the effects of both on the commuting masses and job market.

I wouldn't start splashing out the red paint everywhere yet.

Red paint, eh. Funny how there's a movement to push Dublin into being the Beijing of the recent past. (Or is it the Dublin of the 1940s they want back? O'Connell Street was a lot wider back then.)

hfallada · 14-04-2014 1:27pm

MGWR wrote: »

Red paint, eh. Funny how there's a movement to push Dublin into being the Beijing of the recent past. (Or is it the Dublin of the 1940s they want back? O'Connell Street was a lot wider back then.)

I was in Shanghai, Tianjin and Beijing during the summer and believe me there is no bicycles in the cities any more. Everyone drives or uses public transport. The roads arent safe for cyclist in Chinese cities

L1011 · 14-04-2014 3:58pm

That "goods" figure looks suspiciously low; as if they're counting anything on a Class B licence to be a "car". There's entire light changes on the quays where all that passes you is taxis, buses and light commercials (Goods tax).

Victor · 14-04-2014 10:40pm

MYOB wrote: »

That "goods" figure looks suspiciously low;

Many goods vehicles will have been in the city centre since 5am. Few of them will bother entering the city centre during rush hour.

There's entire light changes on the quays where all that passes you is taxis, buses and light commercials (Goods tax).

Taxis and buses are given their own categories.

That said, there may be a case for reviewing such cases.

L1011 · 14-04-2014 11:32pm

Victor wrote: »

Many goods vehicles will have been in the city centre since 5am. Few of them will bother entering the city centre during rush hour.

Heavy goods yes. Light commercials, no, definitively not.

Shoving them in as "cars" is lazy and distorts the figures - there's very few trips in a LCV that can be mode-shifted (although if its environmental reasons rather than traffic, a decent number of them probably could go to electric, maybe).

Driving in to the city at rush hour is such a horrendous thing to do that at this stage I think the next step really has to be a full-on survey to find out WHY people are doing it. Non- or improper provision of public transport has to be the main reason but we really do need to know why.

Aard · 15-04-2014 2:05pm

I'd say it's to do with the availability of free/cheap parking. Having a car space at one's destination is a significant determiner of whether one will travel by car or by other modes.

L1011 · 15-04-2014 4:04pm

Aard wrote: »

I'd say it's to do with the availability of free/cheap parking. Having a car space at one's destination is a significant determiner of whether one will travel by car or by other modes.

That is definitely a factor for some - however, in my current office you have to pay a (small enough weekly but still considerable enough amount) for parking and there's a number of 9-5 office based staff that drive in.

Ticketing (real issues alongside perceived/misinformed ones), antisocial issues on the Red Line and train crowing/timings seem to be the main reasons.

I only subject myself to the torture of the quays or the wallet-emptying of the DPT when I have somewhere else to be during the day that requires moving more stuff than I can carry under my arm; but poor provision of train transfers (facilities and more critically, timing) mean that I'd be counted as entering the M50 ring every day more or less - I drive to Navan Road Parkway. Took the train the whole way in today and while 13mins on a platform on a nice morning isn't that bad, this isn't average Irish weather!

Tarabuses · 15-04-2014 4:28pm

Victor wrote: »

Not quite. Cars account for about 80% of traffic, but 37% of people.

It is interesting to see how small the percentage of people carried by taxi is compared to the taxi traffic. The complete opposite of buses and yet we let them share the same bus lanes.

Does the percentage of people carried by taxi include the driver (chauffeur)?

markpb · 15-04-2014 4:49pm

MYOB wrote: »

Driving in to the city at rush hour is such a horrendous thing to do that at this stage I think the next step really has to be a full-on survey to find out WHY people are doing it.

I think there are two reasons. A lot of people work in Dublin but don't live in or near Dublin. Public transport isn't an option because it's so poor where they live. Secondly, it takes a huge effort to get people to give up their cars. If they come to Dublin and don't immediately start taking public transport (and are happy with it), you've probably lost them already. People will grumble about congestion, taxes, tolls and the price of petrol but ultimately they'll continue to pay for the convenience of driving their own car.

The first is irreparable in the short term, that's a planning issue for the local authorities. The second one might be easier. Making sure all the universities have quality public transport is important because it targets people when they first move to Dublin and when they're impressionable.

Working with employers to make sure that their staff are aware of public transport options and the Taxsaver scheme is important - a lot of companies don't offer it, others offer it but make no effort to promote it. For example, a project in the Mater to encourage staff to take public transport had these results:

Rail/Luas from 2% to 9%
Bus from 12% to 25%
Cycling from 3% to 10%
Staff participating in the public transport Taxsaver Tickets scheme increased by over 500%.

The other thing is that advertising of public transport tends to be quite bland. There should be more emphasis on the fact that the Luas (green) almost guarantees a journey time of 20 minutes from Sandyford to Stephens Green, that the average trip time from Beaumont to O'Connell St is 25 minutes (I'm guessing?). People have an image of public transport being slow and unreliable - this needs to be countered.

L1011 · 15-04-2014 5:00pm

Park and Ride really does need to be better implemented and then heavily pushed to those who live outside otherwise public transport-able distance. Carrot rather than stick.

Actually secured carparks, parking fee integrated with transport tickets - may allow removing VAT or even adding to Taxsaver in some cases, advertising with the time/stress/vehicle wear benefits (getting M3 Parkway a pre-toll method of access might help too...) along with appropriate capacity on the PT element - a lot of people are going to prefer being in a car stuck in traffic than shoved in to someones armpit.

I've seen the Taxsaver thing here myself - a colleague who is already using rail long-term wasn't aware we did them and was buying weekly paper tickets at full price! Make no sense for me as they stand with the split journey though.

Victor · 15-04-2014 11:37pm

Tarabuses wrote: »

Does the percentage of people carried by taxi include the driver (chauffeur)?

No, the driver isn't counted for taxi or bus, as they aren't commuters into the city centre.

In reality, some of the taxi drivers will be weekend only drivers abusing the bus lane.

what_traffic · 16-04-2014 9:56am

Do the NTA have similar Count's for the "Regional" Cities/Towns?

monument · 16-04-2014 12:14pm

what_traffic wrote: »

Do the NTA have similar Count's for the "Regional" Cities/Towns?

No. It's based largely on the work of Dublin City Council and the transport operators.

what_traffic · 16-04-2014 12:59pm

monument wrote: »

No. It's based largely on the work of Dublin City Council and the transport operators.

Thanks - while Dublin is out on it's own in terms of size would be interesting if one could compare modes in Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford

Aard · 16-04-2014 3:22pm

The Census 2011 has pretty up-to-date info on mode share for all parts of the country, down to Small Areas (sub-Electoral Division areas of about 150 dwellings). Not exactly the same exercise as the Dublin Canal Cordon, but not to be dismissed either.

Calina · 18-04-2014 2:50pm

IMO, the number one reason is that provision is poor and incoherent.

I came to Dublin 15 years ago, having lived in Brussels for a few years before that. When I look at the change in public transport provision in Brussels versus the changes in Dublin over the same time scale, the one message I can take away is that no one seems to take ownership of implementing a comprehensive integrated system in Dublin. I don't think anyone can argue that the system is really integrated.

YOu don't fix this by fixing the universities first. And nor do you fix it by fixing park and ride. You don't fix it by implementing the cheap solution first.

And yet, this is what happens in Ireland. We look for the cheapest solution first. And we are doing this with BRT again.

In the meantime, we don't have a public transport system in Dublin that could be called coherent or integrated by any shape of the imagination. Planning journeys on what we have is difficult. If you cannot get a direct route to somewhere, your journey time doesn't appear to rise linearly but exponentially.

The whole idea of things like Taxsaver are really nice but the implementation of actual public transport in Dublin just isn't there.

YOu will get far more people using public transport in the long term if you implement a system they can rely on. Now I'm pretty certain that you won't get that implemented without a lot of pain during construction. I've sometimes felt the best thing you could do with Dublin is level it and just start over.

Banjoxed · 18-04-2014 3:58pm

Calina wrote: »

IMO, the number one reason is that provision is poor and incoherent.

I came to Dublin 15 years ago, having lived in Brussels for a few years before that. When I look at the change in public transport provision in Brussels versus the changes in Dublin over the same time scale, the one message I can take away is that no one seems to take ownership of implementing a comprehensive integrated system in Dublin. I don't think anyone can argue that the system is really integrated.

YOu don't fix this by fixing the universities first. And nor do you fix it by fixing park and ride. You don't fix it by implementing the cheap solution first.

And yet, this is what happens in Ireland. We look for the cheapest solution first. And we are doing this with BRT again.

In the meantime, we don't have a public transport system in Dublin that could be called coherent or integrated by any shape of the imagination. Planning journeys on what we have is difficult. If you cannot get a direct route to somewhere, your journey time doesn't appear to rise linearly but exponentially.

The whole idea of things like Taxsaver are really nice but the implementation of actual public transport in Dublin just isn't there.

YOu will get far more people using public transport in the long term if you implement a system they can rely on. Now I'm pretty certain that you won't get that implemented without a lot of pain during construction. I've sometimes felt the best thing you could do with Dublin is level it and just start over.

Don't forget Calina that there are vested interests in keeping public transport a bit rubbish. Does anyone believe that private bus owners and members of the so-called "Society of the Irish Motor Industry", providers of road aggregate, connected landowners and indeed road hauliers in the case of freight on the railways, are in any way supportive or even neutral on the subject of public transport in Ireland?

Up here in Inishowen the spin over the demise of the Swilly is that public transport is the preserve of those too young or too old to drive, so the bare minimum of services are provided. Is that the sort of country that will be in any way sustainable after peak oil?

AlekSmart · 19-04-2014 1:32am

Tarabuses wrote: »

It is interesting to see how small the percentage of people carried by taxi is compared to the taxi traffic. The complete opposite of buses and yet we let them share the same bus lanes.

Does the percentage of people carried by taxi include the driver (chauffeur)?

Hugely relevant,and little stated,point here.

For some unknown reason the Taxi fraternity,have managed to get away with portraying themselves as being an integral part of mainstream "Public Transport".

They are most certainly not.

At best they can be regarded as an adjunct to it,but currently,given the ratio of Taxis to Traffic Flow Impediment,the Dublin Taxi business is most definitely NOT serving any great positive purpose in the City Centre.

This statistical breakdown only serves to increase the pressure for some form of Action from DCC and the NTA to impose order upon what is now a significant threat to the City's Traffic Management structure.

However,politically,the Taxi fraternity have always managed to stay one-step-ahead.....pure luck..or something else altogether

?

Tenzor07 · 24-04-2014 12:09pm

Dublin, 20 years behind some cities in terms of safety for cyclists...

Hmm...would have thought it was more like 30 years actually! :rolleyes:

irishexaminer.com

Muahahaha · 26-04-2014 2:46pm

hfallada wrote: »

I was in Shanghai, Tianjin and Beijing during the summer and believe me there is no bicycles in the cities any more. Everyone drives or uses public transport. The roads arent safe for cyclist in Chinese cities

Wow that's amazing cos I was in Beijing back in 2001 and there were thousands on their bike in the city centre, it was easily the most common form of transport. I even remember there was a song around the time titled 9 million bicycles in Beijing. I'd say there has been some crazy changes since I was last there.

AngryLips · 26-04-2014 3:08pm

Will be interesting to see the figures change when the expansion of Dublin Bikes is complete. It never ceases to amaze me of late all the places in the city that I'm finding them building new bike stations.

L1011 · 26-04-2014 6:11pm

The massive Heuston expansion; if they can keep the stations filled in the morning and empty for returns in the evening, can only have a huge upward impact - although some will be coming from Luas. Although any capacity freed up there is likely to just get filled anyway.

However, every time someone misses a train because they have to faff around for ten minutes to drop off the bike its another person who won't use it again so station management is going to become critical.

Aard · 26-04-2014 8:54pm

AngryLips wrote: »

Will be interesting to see the figures change when the expansion of Dublin Bikes is complete. It never ceases to amaze me of late all the places in the city that I'm finding them building new bike stations.

Seeing as cyclists are only counted when they cross the Canal cordon, the current expansion of dublinbikes to Docklands and Heuston is unlikely to significantly affect the statistics. Even when dublinbikes is extended beyond the canals, most dublinbikes trips will still not be recorded.

L1011 · 26-04-2014 9:02pm

Are they completely relying on automated counts then? I understand why they might not bother counting people who live and work entirely within the canals, as they're very unlikely to drive anyway (and they don't really seem to care what non-driving mode is used generally) but there are definitely people who have moved to public transport plus cycling from car due to Dublin Bikes.

monument · 26-04-2014 11:08pm

Aard wrote: »

Seeing as cyclists are only counted when they cross the Canal cordon, the current expansion of dublinbikes to Docklands and Heuston is unlikely to significantly affect the statistics. Even when dublinbikes is extended beyond the canals, most dublinbikes trips will still not be recorded.

Was he not talking about the DublinBikes figures? A large amount of trip data is generated by the system, most commonly noted is the amount of rentals.

Also, even with traffic counts there's the lesser known City Centre counts which take place soon and are out in September (if last year's timeline is followed), more on that near the end of this page: http://irishcycle.com/dublin-traffic-counts/

A while after the expansion is completed (maybe 6-12 months), I'd also expect the extra DublinBikes cyclists to lead to a growth in those on their own bikes and some of those should be crossing the canals. But maybe the main effect of people getting their own bikes after trying or seeing DublinBikes has already happened?

Aard · 27-04-2014 1:00am

I must have misunderstood - I thought he was referring to the Canal Cordon stats.

I do wonder whether the dublinbikes scheme has encouraged an increase in bike-ownership. I'd think that one of the main advantages of the dublinbikes over ownership is that you don't need to worry about having your bike stolen.

As mentioned above - the addition of dublinbikes to Heuston Station is likely to lead to people moving from car to train+bike, maybe even Luas+bike.

Macy0161 · 28-04-2014 9:52am

Aard wrote: »

I do wonder whether the dublinbikes scheme has encouraged an increase in bike-ownership. I'd think that one of the main advantages of the dublinbikes over ownership is that you don't need to worry about having your bike stolen.

My experience is that using Dublin Bikes gave me the confidence that I could cycle around the city centre safely. I now part cycle my commute a 2 or 3 days a week, and when we move location it'll be 5 days a week. Maybe I would've bitten the bullet anyway, but I think the Dublin Bikes definitely speeded it up (a couple of times I had to get across town at lunch, and Dublin bikes was the only practical option). Not that I'd be counted in the figures, as I don't cross the canal.

Incidentally, even if I cycle to work, I do tend to use Dublin Bikes if I need to use them during the day, for the sake of not having to lock up my own bike.

monument · 28-04-2014 12:56pm

Aard wrote: »

I do wonder whether the dublinbikes scheme has encouraged an increase in bike-ownership.

I'd say: Yes, without question.

I've seen the story outlined by Macy0161 repeated over and over.

Same type of stories came out of Paris with their scheme.

Victor · 28-04-2014 7:21pm

The issue above regarding Heuston is experienced already at other stations - the bikes are used up very quickly in the morning and the spaces used up in the evening.

Providing adequate public transport options (and secure bike parking for private bikes) from main stations would reduce this problem, e.g. Heuston only has good transport to the city centre (many routes), the west (many routes), the south west (Luas Red), the airport (DB 747) and the N11 corridor (145). It is too dependent on second transfers in the city centre for other locations.

The attached map from http://journeyplanner.transportforireland.ie/rm/XSLT_TRIP_REQUEST2?language=en represents the bulk of the local routes serving Heuston directly. Services on James's Street, North Circular Road and Stoneybatter are so near, but so far. I've not shown every route, but the corridors served.

antoobrien · 30-04-2014 9:13am

This thread is missing the bleeding obvious: a massive portion of the workforce was taken up by construction workers. These are journeys that are likely to happen in cars/vans/jeeps due to the need to carry goods & equipment needed to do the job.

As for the arguments about November being the wrong time of the year to count cyclists and walkers - the fact that last November was abnormally dry notwithstanding - it's the perfect time of the year to count walkers and cyclists as these people will come out at any time of the year and gives a truer reflection of the levels than anything that might happen in July.

monument · 30-04-2014 12:06pm

antoobrien wrote: »

This thread is missing the bleeding obvious: a massive portion of the workforce was taken up by construction workers. These are journeys that are likely to happen in cars/vans/jeeps due to the need to carry goods & equipment needed to do the job.

What's your point exactly?

The data for the canal and city centre counts is year-on-year. The increases in more sustainable modes is a real and actual increase -- it's not just a percentage increase due to construction work no longer commuting.

antoobrien wrote: »

As for the arguments about November being the wrong time of the year to count cyclists and walkers - the fact that last November was abnormally dry notwithstanding - it's the perfect time of the year to count walkers and cyclists as these people will come out at any time of the year and gives a truer reflection of the levels than anything that might happen in July.

I'd agree that it would be a distortion to remove the November count, and that it shows a truer reflection.

But you also need an all round view and sometime like May would be a good idea. July would be silliness.

L1011 · 30-04-2014 4:16pm

monument wrote: »

What's your point exactly?

That some traffic cannot be mode-shifted. That traffic SHOULD be counted as commercial but as I've said up-thread it looks to me like they're counting anything on a B licence as a 'car'.

monument · 30-04-2014 5:42pm

MYOB wrote: »

That some traffic cannot be mode-shifted. That traffic SHOULD be counted as commercial but as I've said up-thread it looks to me like they're counting anything on a B licence as a 'car'.

Totally agree on that.

Car commuting down, cycling up...

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