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Dublin Bus - can anyone be happy with the price and service?
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Assuming that we accept over capacity was a problem, Which do you think is more likely to deter customers from using a service: over-capacity or having to travel on a human cattle truck? Network direct gives you the latter to a depressing degree. Good call there.
- unnecessary over-capacity in the network;
it didn't and a quick look at RTPI will tell you that, you will see the same route buses bunched up together in a convoy as they hit the city centre and then long gaps in serviceSimilarly, Network Direct introduced:
- Regular interval departures
In practice it didn't and a quick look at RTPI will tell you that. You'd want to be crazy to believe that the schedules are actually adhered to.- Clockface schedules
Not for me it didn't, it did the opposite. Three different routes are now showing up at the same time, thus maximizing passenger wait times. Perhaps somewhere further down their epic, Joycean voyage across Dublin it improved matters but I don't care about that as a customer- Integrated timetables on certain corridors between routes that previously operated at random intervals leading to significant service gaps
Meaningless. If there were no "core routes" to start with then any number is more than that. Presumably by "more direct" you mean "get off and walk the rest of the way" while the bus sails onto harristown or the dublin mountains.- More direct core routes on each QBC
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I'm one of the few people who uses network direct routes from end to near end and I can tell you now, I'm the only person on those routes who does, the routes were not based on customer demand.
Network direct was based on a cost saving premise, that dublin bus could operate services like a tram or rail system. Didn't work because they ignored the fact that they had to travel on roads rather than rail and thus lacked the main benefits of those modes: speed and punctuality based on a dedicated infrastructure
Instead we got a typical worst of both worlds solution.
In general, I tend to get the impression that your idea of a well run bus service is akin to a nicely arranged, symmetrical hornby set where inconveniences like passengers aren't a consideration
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Assuming that we accept over capacity was a problem, Which do you think is more likely to deter customers from using a service: over-capacity or having to travel on a human cattle truck? Network direct gives you the latter to a depressing degree. Good call there.
it didn't and a quick look at RTPI will tell you that, you will see the same route buses bunched up together in a convoy as they hit the city centre and then long gaps in service
In practice it didn't and a quick look at RTPI will tell you that. You'd want to be crazy to believe that the schedules are actually adhered to.
Not for me it didn't, it did the opposite. Three different routes are now showing up at the same time, thus maximizing passenger wait times. Perhaps somewhere further down their epic, Joycean voyage across Dublin it improved matters but I don't care about that as a customer
Meaningless. If there were no "core routes" to start with then any number is more than that. Presumably by "more direct" you mean "get off and walk the rest of the way" while the bus sails onto harristown or the dublin mountains.
I'm one of the few people who uses network direct routes from end to near end and I can tell you now, I'm the only person on those routes who does, the routes were not based on customer demand.
Network direct was based on a cost saving premise, that dublin bus could operate services like a tram or rail system. Didn't work because they ignored the fact that they had to travel on roads rather than rail and thus lacked the main benefits of those modes: speed and punctuality based on a dedicated infrastructure
Instead we got a typical worst of both worlds solution.
In general, I tend to get the impression that your idea of a well run bus service is akin to a nicely arranged, symmetrical hornby set where inconveniences like passengers aren't a consideration
With respect, you clearly have an issue with the implementation of the changes on one particular route. That does not mean that your experience has been replicated across the entire network. There are numerous areas where the changes resulted in an improved service.
I think that you have to be realistic about the capacity - there were plenty of buses running around either completely empty or half empty. That's a luxury that just could not continue. While it might be less comfortable for you having to share your seat, I'm afraid that situation couldn't continue - the economics of that make no sense.
I think you may be at cross-purposes with what I mean in my posts, as actually we agree about some of this.
Regular interval departures:
This means that the timetable is designed so that buses depart the terminus at regular intervals, rather than haphazard times. Every route timetable now has that. Prior to Network Direct many routes were scheduled at completely haphazard frequencies.
Clockface departures:
This means that buses depart the terminus at the same times each hour during the off-peak periods - most if not all timetables have that also.
Both of these, if correctly implemented, mean that people should be able in the off-peak to know when buses are going to show up each hour. At peak times this is less of an issue as frequencies tend to be higher.
Now you will see that I underlined the phrase "if correctly implemented".
One of the main problems at the outset with certain routes (and it was certainly not all routes) was that they were not given enough running time to get from one terminus to the other. This meant that the timetable became unachievable because buses were arriving late at the terminus having completed a journey, and the next journey was either cancelled or only worked half the route. Particular routes that I can recall that had this issue at the outset were the 13, 14 (at particular times) and the 38 and 38a. It took far too long for revised schedules to be drawn up that did allow the public timetable to be achievable. That was not acceptable in my view as it showed a serious disregard for the customer.
The second problem is what you correctly focus in on and that's even headways throughout the route. That means buses operating at regular even intervals all along the route. That was not implemented and that is what I am saying needs to happen - that requires timed intervals all along the route and specific points where buses would be held if they operate ahead of that schedule in the off-peak. The problem is that the official timetables as they are only have the times they depart the terminus and where there is a driver changeover.
That's a major project in itself - when DB implemented Network Direct they would not have the systems in place to accurately develop intermediate timing points - they do now and that needs to happen. It isn't enough to just do the departures, it needs to also then be developed all along the route.
I appreciate that your particular service may not have improved in your view, but there are plenty of places where they did:
By "more direct" I meant that the principal routes on most QBCs operate along a more direct route, which is what the majority of people want.
Examples of improved direct routes on QBCs include:
Blanchardstown: The 39a operates direct along the N3 now to Blanchardstown Centre with the 39 still serving Clonsilla Road
Stillorgan/Dun Laoghaire/Bray: The 46a by-passes Stillorgan Village and operates direct along Kill Lane instead (bypassing Monkstown Farm which has an extended 4 at one end and the 63 through it), and the 145 no longer has random buses going via Bray Station which caused bunching
Rathfarnham: The 16 and 16a merged into one single route from Ballinteer to the Airport delivering a much higher frequency to Grange Road where demand was much higher than Nutgrove Avenue which now has the 61 along with the 17 and 75.
Lucan: The 25a and 25b re-routed via the Chapelizod by-pass instead of via Chapelizod
Finglas: The 40d operating directly along the Finglas Road rather than through Finglas South
While some people will have lost out in these examples, the majority of people benefitted from a faster bus service. Most areas that lost the high frequency service received a local bus service that operated at a lower frequency that was more in line with demand levels. There is a trade-off here - people cannot expect a door-to-door high frequency bus, but they should be within a short walk of one.
Some corridors have fully integrated services.
On the Lucan corridor, for example, the 25a/25b operate at regular intervals in either direction, and the 26, 66, 66a, 66b and 67 all depart the city at regular intervals. Before ND these routes were departing at the same times and then having long gaps.
Similarly on the Howth Road there are no longer 29a, 31/a/b and 32 buses departing at the same times from the city - they are all spaced out far more evenly.
The 15a and 15b are now integrated together - these were previously completely haphazard.
But I never said that was done to perfection. I said quite clearly that there needs to be a focus other corridors so that more bus routes are integrated with one another - introducing full headways into schedules will make that easier, but that's a huge task trying to marry up routes that may be coming from different places. It's not always going to be possible, but if two routes are serving one corridor, then they ought to be integrated.
I said again that I would not expect large numbers of people to go end to end on the cross-city routes, but rather make longer intermediate trips cross-city, where they used to take two buses. The 14 and 15 both carry good numbers cross-city, the Lucan buses all bring people into the CBD now, the 40 brings Finglas passengers across to Dame Street, the 145 carries good numbers from Heuston and the Quays along the Stillorgan QBC - these are just examples. No one expects large numbers to go from end to end - it's allowing people make longer trips on one bus rather than two that was the intention.
So while you clearly have issues, and I respect that, it's not fair to say that the project was a complete failure. Many areas have a better service in terms of frequency or schedule design. Some areas don't and that needs to be dealt with.
Network Direct was a start in the right direction - it sorted out the random departure times. The headways along the corridors still need addressing. I can't really see where that is not focussing on passengers as you seem to think I'm not?0 -
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With respect, you clearly have an issue with the implementation of the changes on one particular route. That does not mean that your experience has been replicated across the entire network. There are numerous areas where the changes resulted in an improved service.
Not one particular route chief, I use five or six different routes week in and out. Obviously not covering the same amount of routes as a dublin busemployee does though
Regular interval departures:
This means that the timetable is designed so that buses depart the terminus at regular intervals, rather than haphazard times. Every route timetable now has that. Prior to Network Direct many routes were scheduled at completely haphazard frequencies which meant that
Clockface departures:
This means that buses depart the terminus at the same times each hour during the off-peak periods - most if not all timetables have that also.
Both of these, if correctly implemented, mean that people should be able in the off-peak to know when buses are going to show up each hour. At peak times this is less of an issue as frequencies tend to be higher.
You're heavily qualifying those much trumpeted benefits now
. Departing a terminus at a set time sounds great but I'm about 10 minutes from a terminus and the routes still aren't predictable or reliable i.e.: haphazard. Which is why RTPI, for all its quirks, is an absolute necessity
All of which leads to another pub quiz question: what's dublin bus' definition of "peak times"? :pac:0 -
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Not one particular route chief, I use five or six different routes week in and out. Obviously not covering the same amount of routes as a dublin busemployee does though
You're heavily qualifying those much trumpeted benefits now. Departing a terminus at a set time sounds great but I'm about 10 minutes from a terminus and the routes still aren't predictable or reliable i.e.: haphazard. Which is why RTPI, for all its quirks, is an absolute necessity
All of which leads to another pub quiz question: what's dublin bus' definition of "peak times"? :pac:
For the record (once again) I have no connection with Dublin Bus and am not an employee. Just because I put a contrasting view to yours, does not mean that you have the right to imply that I do have such a connection, which you are doing. I do have a particular interest in public transport operations, but am not working in that sector.
I'm not qualifying anything. That is what those terms mean. If you read something else into them, that's up to you. I'm not really going to continue with this discussion as clearly you don't see any of these things as being improvements. I certainly view them as an improvement on what was there before, but as I have clearly said, there needs to be a second round of Network Direct to actually get headway benefits all along the bus routes. How feasible that is with the ongoing LUAS works in the city centre is another question altogether given the different impact it has on bus routes from one day to another.0 -
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Not one particular route chief, I use five or six different routes week in and out. Obviously not covering the same amount of routes as a dublin busemployee does though
You're heavily qualifying those much trumpeted benefits now. Departing a terminus at a set time sounds great but I'm about 10 minutes from a terminus and the routes still aren't predictable or reliable i.e.: haphazard. Which is why RTPI, for all its quirks, is an absolute necessity
All of which leads to another pub quiz question: what's dublin bus' definition of "peak times"? :pac:
I don't like clock face timetables they are inefficient and unnecessary with RTPI, that said all DB can do is leave the set point at the appointed time what happens after that is out of its control, it can't clamp, tow or issue fines it can't force councils to provide bus priority measures and it can't force the Gardai to police bus priority measures when they are provided.0 -
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Heard a new automated announcement for the first time yesterday on one of the newer buses, advising passengers that they should exit through the centre doors only.
Gold help any unwitting tourists who assumed they should actually obey instructions, given that the centre doors never opened once while I was on the bus.
Funny enough this morning on a full bus the driver used the centre doors for most stops on my journey, the passengers walked up to the front doors completely ignoring the centre doors. I thought to myself why did he bother. 0 -
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Funny enough this morning on a full bus the driver used the centre doors for most stops on my journey, the passengers walked up to the front doors completely ignoring the centre doors. I thought to myself why did he bother.
You really can't blame the passengers for this. They have been brain washed for years that the rear doors aren't used and that they should always use the front doors and make their way forward as quickly as possible or they will miss their stop.
I've often watched foreign tourists stand by the rear door, waiting for it to open so they can exit and then look all confused when it doesn't and scramble forward to exit. Thus teaching them to ignore that door, like everyone else in Dublin always does!
Even today, the rear doors are rarely used, so people don't even think to check if they are open. The design of the new buses also doesn't help with it putting the rear door well behind the stairs, so people coming down the stairs don't notice that it is open! It would be better if the rear doors were directly across from the stairs, so you naturally flow out of it when open.
DB needs to consistently start using both doors 100% of the time at all stops and then people will gradually learn to trust that they can actually use the rear door and will wait by it, rather then moving forward.
It will take time to change, but you can't expect people to use the rear doors when Dublin Bus doesn't use them most of the time!0 -
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