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Risks involved in somebody else building under planning permission that is not theirs

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  • 05-03-2014 10:02pm
    #1
    WhatItAllAbout
    Registered Users Posts: 43 ✭


    Hi Guys,

    Wondered if someone give me a bit of advice on this subject.

    Case being I submitted for planning permission and had it granted in my local area, so I meet the housing need criteria etc at the time.
    After this the bank would not grant us a mortgage so we never built and the sale of the land we were going to build on fell through.

    Someone has approached me wondering could they build this house under my planning permission and I am just wondering what are the risks that go along with this.
    The person situation is that they were not born in the local area and have talked to the County Council and they will not grant them permission cause they don't meet the housing need.

    Want to educate myself on this. Is this illegal? What are the risks that go along with it?

    I would be very grateful for any advice.


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    #2
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,070 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Yes it is illegal if there is a condition of planning which ties the applicant to the permission, which there generally is.


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    #3
    Corkblowin
    Registered Users Posts: 622 ✭✭✭Corkblowin


    Its pretty much as Syd says - the permission likely has a condition that the applicant must occupy the house as their place of permanent residence for a period of time (usually 7 years). However there is nothing illegal in you selling the land to any person, but what you're selling is a site only, not a site with permission. If the purchaser then builds a house without getting a new permission then it is them who's acted illegally, not you.


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    #4
    WhatItAllAbout
    Registered Users Posts: 43 ✭WhatItAllAbout


    Well the land in this case doesn't belong to me at all. But the couple have talked to owner of the land and have agreed a purchase price. Their issue is just with getting planning permission because they cant meet the housing need in the area. This building permission rules are a bit mad to be honest. They are a genuine couple just looking to re locate, isn't the planning system just completely setup to only suit local people to build in their local area. Is the only way to move into an area you weren't born in is to buy a house there?
    I am sure I have heard of cases of people doing what I have asked about here.
    How would a Local Authority ever find out that this had happened?
    They hardly going to call to the door to see do I live there?
    And in this case if it was found out this happened, is it me that is deemed to have done something illegal or the couple?


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    #5
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,070 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    If you don't own the land then you can have no fear. You obviously have nothing to do with any sale.

    If the purchasers take up a person which they clearly breach conditions of, them it's illegal. Nothing to debate really.

    As for the political reason for the local needs, that's a debate for another time and place. All i will say on it is that rural housing is a finite and valuable resource and we cannot allow a free for all.


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    #6
    OBrother
    Registered Users Posts: 27 ✭OBrother


    What if the prospective purchasers did build the house on your planning, and sometime in the future you are in a situation to apply for planning again, I don't believe the local authority would accept that you still complied with local needs


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    #7
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,070 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    OBrother wrote: »
    What if the prospective purchasers did build the house on your planning, and sometime in the future you are in a situation to apply for planning again, I don't believe the local authority would accept that you still complied with local needs

    If prospective purchasers take up YOUR permission they are in breach of planning conditions (can you please post exactly what the condition says tying you to the site) and are committing an illegal act.

    if you are worried that this is happening contact your local planing office immediately.

    its not hard to prove that you didnt take up permission


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    #8
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,279 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    OBrother wrote: »
    What if the prospective purchasers did build the house on your planning, and sometime in the future you are in a situation to apply for planning again, I don't believe the local authority would accept that you still complied with local needs

    That's the thing though, they wouldn't be building the house on your granted planning permission. They'd be building the house without planning permission, which is illegal.

    If they were not the applicant and the application was for full planning permission, they do not have planning permission even if they build the same house that was applied for. Planning permission isn't just for the proposed development, it's for the applicant.


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    #9
    Corkblowin
    Registered Users Posts: 622 ✭✭✭Corkblowin


    Penn wrote: »
    If they were not the applicant and the application was for full planning permission, they do not have planning permission even if they build the same house that was applied for. Planning permission isn't just for the proposed development, it's for the applicant.

    Thats not quite it........in general permission applies to the land and not to the applicant - permissions continue to be valid even of the lands changes hands.

    However in the OP's case there will be a condition binding the applicant to the development which doesn't happen in 'regular' applications. I'm not sure what would happen if the site was sold to someone who also satisfied the local needs requirements. As another poster says, if the house was built without informing the Local Authority of a change in ownership then the OP couldn't apply again as his local need had already been accommodated.

    (edit - reading again I think we're saying the same thing!)


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    #10
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,070 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Corkblowin wrote: »
    Thats not quite it........in general permission applies to the land and not to the applicant - permissions continue to be valid even of the lands changes hands.

    However in the OP's case there will be a condition binding the applicant to the development which doesn't happen in 'regular' applications. I'm not sure what would happen if the site was sold to someone who also satisfied the local needs requirements. As another poster says, if the house was built without informing the Local Authority of a change in ownership then the OP couldn't apply again as his local need had already been accommodated.

    (edit - reading again I think we're saying the same thing!)

    the bolded part isnt quite correct.

    the applicant has to 'take up' the permission.
    if another person takes up the applicants permission they do so illegally, in the case where local needs applies, and therefore the local need isnt yet satisfied.
    That being said, any future application by the applicant will a bit harder to get through as they will have to explain why the initial permission wasnt taken up.


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    #11
    Corkblowin
    Registered Users Posts: 622 ✭✭✭Corkblowin


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    the bolded part isnt quite correct.

    We'll get there in the end! :D & some people think planning is easy!


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    #12
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,761 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    Corkblowin wrote: »
    We'll get there in the end! :D & some people think planning is easy!

    The whole local need thing is BS anyway - it's practically systemic discrimination. Racism even. Surprised it has never been tested in the courts.

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    #13
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    galwaytt wrote: »
    The whole local need thing is BS anyway - it's practically systemic discrimination. Racism even. Surprised it has never been tested in the courts.


    So true !

    If the couple who are looking for building has some time and money, they could :

    - apply for planning permission for the same house in the same land ( just change owner's name with theirs )
    - wait for the refusal of Co. Co. on the base that they don't meet local housing need criteria
    - Challenge the Co.Co in court for discrimination ( going to Europeen Court if needed )

    I'm pretty sure they'll won the case.

    I'm not looking at building, but ah, if I had time and money !...:rolleyes:



    See article from dec 2012 here :
    'Locals only' planning rule illegal and discriminatory, says EU

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/locals-only-planning-rule-illegal-and-discriminatory-says-eu-26300271.html


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    #14
    WhatItAllAbout
    Registered Users Posts: 43 ✭WhatItAllAbout


    Hi Guys,

    Sorry hadn't checked in emails in quite a while.
    Update I have refused to give the request my blessing, for two main reasons:

    (1) Yes as it stands in Ireland it illegal
    (2) Any letters sent by the LA during the process, I would have to forward to the couple so would tie me to it.

    and also (3) I don't like the fact that if any time in the future, anyone could launch an objection with the LA and if investigated the couple would have no choice but to knock the house to the ground!

    They have told me they are going to try and apply for planning permission, and I have given them my blessing in applying for the exact same house I planned to build.

    Not sure if they have the money to go to European court :)
    That is unless someone here is a solicitor and they feel strong enough to provide their services for free :)


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